$100 million in tax revenue this year. those are the headlines. i'm john siegenthaler. see you back here at 11:00 eastern. "consider this" with antonio mora is coming up next. i'll see you at 11:00. ♪ ukraine growing more violent and deadly by the hour. we'll go to kiev for different perspective on his the chaos. the violence also continues in venezuela. opposition leader on the future of the protests. plus only on al jazerra, taliban terror. a reporter allowed to cover the extremists from the inside. and the risky, expensive, and all too often deadly world of american fraternities. held he, i am antonio mora and welcome to "consider this." here is more on what's ahead. ♪ ♪

>> deadly violence returned to ukraine's capitol. >> we have decided to introduce targeted sanctions. the government is responsible for making sure that we shift towards some sort of unity government. >> venezuela security forces face-off in the streets. >> genesis carmona seeing here being carried to the hospital was shot in the head. >> the army base. >> suicide bombers have been sent to blow up the main gate. ♪ ♪ we begin with a tragic escalation of violence in ukraine, especially in the capitol kiev. clashes broke out in independence square early thursday morning not long after a ceasefire had been declared. later volleys of gunfire from security forces brought down many demonstrators. at least 70 protesters were killed and perhaps a thousand

wounds. some protesters also fired on police. in what's been the deadliest day by far since anti-government protests began shaking ukraine for its foundation last november. demonstrators also took some 60 policemen captive and paraded them through independence square. unconfirmed reports say the captives were later taken to a hotel are and released. for the latest let's go to kiev with nick shove remember. i can still hear the noise behind you, what's going on where you are now? >> reporter: well, antonio, those scenes of chaos and carnage have been replaced by an eerie calm this evening, you can hear the national anthem being sung and rallying were troops. if you walk through the crowd you get a sense that people of licking their wounds, trying to dig in. you see a lot of people sleeping right now. of course, but even earlier you see people feeding each other. a long barbecue line. there is really a sense that today was a turning points. today was sigh ve so violent the

to lick their wounds and dig in a little bit i've few blocks from here we saw thousands of protesters surround more police, a bus full of police, eventually those too were allowed to leave. even though it's calm behind me, there is a real sense that the violence really was beyond the pale this morning. protesters did as you say advance towards police this morning but did so with hunting rifles, a few handguns here and there and the police shot back with snipers and overwhelming force, we saw horrific videos of people armed only with plastic shields trying to get toward police and were picked off one by one and so there is a sense this evening that what began as a peaceful protest, really is creating bridges that cannot be -- that cannot be bridged or divides wrath their cannot be bridged at all at this point and the violence will increase because the protesters feel like they have to respond to the police vie bens with more of their own. >> after all of that awful

carnage and you can talking about the mood among the demonstrators do you think they looked intimidated or do you think that they have become more determined as a result of what happened today. >> not only have they become more determined but more viole violent. they believe that they have to defends themselves and become more violent if they are going to be met by sharp shooters and snipers. the u.s., the e.e.u. and u.n. have all urged them not to. the u.s. ambassador went so far as to retweet a statement by a journalist here saying if the protesters were to shoot back, they would get their freedom. they would get their independence, they would have their revolution in a lot longer time. it would actually hurt their cause, so? some ways you may see more martyrs being created here because there is a pressure the international community to make sure that the emotional and the moral pressure stays on the government here and that the protesters are seen as people with plastic shields or hunting

rifles at most being slaughtered in the streets. however, you talk to protesters and you realize that there is a core here of, perhaps not radicals, but certainly right wing nationalists who are not afraid to fight back, who are not afraid to shoot back and who are not afraid, in fact, to actually take the offensive. and so, no, you will not see protesters cowed at all. you'll see on the one hand, those notions of people being able to shoot at police, but also i ran in to 19-year-old students, young welcoming here to lift as many tires as they could, to simply help in any way that they can. and you still see that, so there is still a sense of what they call a revolution, what began as a peaceful protest now becoming so much bigger than that. >> and talking about help, there are reports that demonstrators from western ukraine, closer to europe have been coming in to kiev to bolster the protesters. have you seen signs of that? >> absolutely. look, ukraine is a bridge. this is why we care about this country rick it's a bridge

between the west and the east, if you look at the map to the east and the north, with he see moscow and to to the west we see europe. and western ukraine is much more euro centric, much more open to the e.e.u. than is eastern ukraine, we have seen reports of government officials handing over the keys to buildings, police actually not so much surrendering to protest, but joining them and actually holding their own marches in defines of what thdefiance of wt has done here in key. we have seen people coming from western ukraine coming to kiev. we saw protesters loot an arms storage. so some of those arms there are some suggestion have filled in to kiev this evening. and so there is a sense that you have a west versus east and that does compliment things and increase the notion that this is heading towards a civil war, that's not something that people use lightly here but it's a term that the foreign former minister used the just the other day

suggesting that the bridges that existed between these two sides have really been exploded in the last 24 hours by the amount of violence. >> and, again, because ukraine is a bridge to europe from russia, that's also why the russians care so much about it and one of the big problems they are facing there. al jazerra america correspondence nick ship within, good to have you on the show, thank you. for more in the diplomatic efforts am joined from kiev by skype bile from the washington post. good to have you with us. we have been talking about the chaos and tragedy in the streets of kiev today. i know you were out there and what did you see? >> well, people are very shocked by the very large death toll. hundreds of wounded. any see any sign of panic. you know, there was no sign of

debilitating fear. and the protesters still have most of the independence square. they were breaking up rocks to use to throw at the police. you know, preparing food in the food kitchens tending to the wounded and taking care of the bodies of the dead and life went on in that protest camp. >> diplomats from poland, france, germany met with the president for four hours on thursday, did anything come out of the meetings? >> well airing plan came out of the meetings when they then took to the opposition leaders, they didn't say what the plan was, but word finally leaked out from warsaw that yanukovych said he's open to early elections, both parliament and the presidency. the foreign ministers met with the opposition leaders who were skeptical for understandable reasons and then went back to the presidential offices and met again with yanukovych.

we are waiting to hear what the word is from that. i don't think anybody is thinking that this thing is solved yet. but it's a glimmer i've hope. after what had been ukraine's darkest day since this began. >> now, we have heard about the pressure being applied by the u.s. and by the european union, especially on some major government officials. how is that being received and how effective do you think that will be? >> well, in one sense, sanctions are, you know, symbolic thing and they certainly give a thrill to the crowd who are opposed to yanukovych and his circle. on another level, refusing visas to people in the elite to go to western countries, does have some sting to it, because many, many of them have apartments in new york or paris or london and their children go to college and you know, oxford or harvard or somewhere like that. and but the bigger impact is the

message it sends to other members of the elite, who perhaps also enjoy traveling in the west and they are thinking to themselves, according to the tactic involved here, you know, do i want to get tarred with the same brush here. i think sanctions are an attempt to drive a little bit of a wedge between the inner most circle and the next ring of the elite. >> but some have raised the issue that it might push them further toward russia. and vladimir putin has made no bones about the fact that he thinks one of the biggest tragedies is the soviet union broken and ukraine has to be under russian influence. where is russia today on all this, do you know? >> well, we have had a hint of that. putin talked with david cameron of britain and with angela merkel the chancellor of germany and apparently they talked about

the need for specifically germany, russia, and the united states to maybe work together to try to find a resolution to the ukrainian crisis. now, people say things, particularly in this part of the world and the proof is in the pudding. but putin may have reached the point where, which i know many people in russia have already, of thinking that yanukovych has taken hit best shot at the opposition, if i can put it that way, it's a bad metaphor, and he hasn't done. he's demonstrated his weakness and putin may be think being, you know, he has to find ideal that he can cut that's in russia's best now. >> thank you for joining us. >> thanks very much. >> will putin intervene or will the ukraine fall in to a civil war. now joined by a liberal member of canada's parliament. she's ukrainian canadian worked

in the ukraine and served as the moscow bureau chief for the financial times and author of the inside story of the russian civil union. did you ever expect to see anything like what they have seen this horrible, turmoil and violence in the ukraine. >> no, i can't claim o to of tht kind of a black crystal ball. this is a much more tragic, much more devastating situation than i had ever managed. and certainly i think than any people in ukraine had managed. people really -- it's very shock, ukraine actually in many ways had been a really successful democracy since the collapse of the soviet union. lots of things hadn't worked but ukraine had had three successful changes of president, which political scientists often say is a measure of democracy. and the soviet union had collapsed. ukraine separated from russia in 1991 without violence.

and to have this sort of a bloody eruption is really, you know, the u.s. ambassador has tweeted this is the worst day in ukrainian history. i think that's going a bit far because ukrainian has had a lot of bloody pages in its history but this is the worst day in modern ukrainian history. >> certainly since world war ii. what are you hearing from your friends and colleagues there? >> look, i think the reports that you have just carried are very accurate. what is striking for me about what's happening in ukraine right now is that the demonstrators and not just the demonstrators but really the broad majority of the ukrainian people who do support them are not at all cowed by the pressure by the killings from the regime. quite the contemporary, what we havcon -- contrary, andthis hase november, when these protests began, every time the regime tries to be more repressive,

first it was beating people, then it was a serious of laws to roll back ukrainian civil society and democratic freedoms and then it was actual shootings. every time that has happened, what you have actually seen is an even greater surge of public support for the protests. that says something to me about how strong and how deep the popular support is. >> do you think the protesters can win their fight with president yanukovych? there was a much more peaceful revolution 10 years ago, but could this tear the country apart? could there be a civil war? we know that western europe, of course, is closer physically to europe. and it's much more pro western, while eastern ukraine is closer and more sim get toyin sympathe. >> i think those fears of a genuine civil war in ukraine are misplaced. so far we haven't seen ukrainian citizens fighting ukrainian

citizens. what we have seen is a government and a government which right now is struggling to retain the support of some of the people who in the inner circle. a government trying not very successfully to quash a protest. you aren't seeing people outside of the government actually fighting the demonstrators and the government is having a hard time even getting its own forces to repress the protesters. so this is -- this is -- this civil war parallel i don't think is the right one. i think what we are seeing, and this is something that will alluded to, is a not very successful attempt at imposing authoritarianism. this is yanukovych trying to do a teahen minute square in ukraine and not succeeding. he's killed a lot of people, but he has not managed to get them to go away. and that speaks to me both of

the determination of the protesters and of their support and yanukovych's, as as it is to say, his weakness, he want get enough soldiers to clear the square and he's been tearin try. >> you wrote about russia, it's always been their first conquest. would russia let yanukovych and his government go down to defeat without stepping in? >> i think that is the biggest question right now. and you know, yanukovych has been acting so far at the behest of the russians. the reason that we have seen this greater repression is because the russians believed it was going to be possible for yanukovych to clear the square and they wanted that to happen. as part of this big $15 billion aid package which yanukovych was promised in lou -- to dissuade him from signing the association

agreement with europe. the big question now is how far russia is willing to back yanukovych in repressing the ukrainians. and i don't know the answer to that. if russia were to choose to support yanukovych, and we did see in 2008, the russians actually invade georgia, then i do think that you would have a true war scenario in europe. >> talking about -- >> something we haven't seen since ewing slough i can't. >> talking about that association with europe that was rejected. you wrote it was hard for the velvet conclusion to the protests. where the protesters would be the victors and zero knewed ties with the european union. >> yeah, well, look, i think even the best case scenario will be messy. that's what we saw after the

orange revolution in ukraine. ukraine is a very young democracy and it's a country that has very weak institutions of democrat immaterial governance. what we have seen is the ukrainian people want it. but it's more than people will to fight for that in the streets, important though that is. it's lots of complicated and difficult to build social institutions and civic inning students, ukraine doesn't have that. even if the democrats were to win i think you would see them having a hard time governor. that doesn't mean that that is not the desirable outcome. that is absolutely the best possible outcome. >> a very dark day. >> but it won't be smooth. >> it certainly is a dark day in ukraine. krista freeland, thank you very much for joining us tonight. coming up, as venezuelan protests intensify one of the top opposition leaders will join us with the latest. dealing with rogue have regimes that duk have dub justice diploy

with dictateers. >> a major u.s. plan to serve bullets a citizens has been scraped. the details just ahead. and while you are watching, let us know what you think on twitter at ajconsiderthis or on our facebook and google plus pages. ♪

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demonstrations in venezuela have spread across the country amid reports of growing brutal. by government forces and pro government gangs with, no independent tv news venezuelans are turn to go social media. showing wid widespread attacks n neighborhoods throughout caracas, coming after an unusual late night court proceeder for leopoldo lopez conduct odd a bus at a military base, prosecutors dropped the most serious charge against lopez. the country's president ma rudee owe has blamed him for inciting protests but he still faces charges that could send him to prison for 10 years. we are joined via skype by one of the main opposition leader and was with leopoldo lopez when he turned himself in to police, it's great to have you with us,

you went to the military prison where leopoldo lopez was being held on thursday, what did you learn there? >> actually, we arrived with a group of the members of the parliament and leopoldo's wife who had not seen him since he was taken by the military two days ago. they didn't let us pass, but we learned what had happened with the trial and the abuse that it referenc an illegal detained innocent manage judged at a military jail and this is unprecedented and proves that totalitarian dimension of this regime. >> a government representative has apparently moved to have your congressional immunity removed so that you could be arrested and reports that the government wants to arrest the man that came within a personal points of winning the election against ma dura last year. do you believe the government will try to put all the main

opposition leaders behind bars? >> it is evident that this regime fears that specific movement that is coming from the grassroots and expressing its desire for democracy and freedom in this way and that it grows day after day. what they don't know is that there are millions of leaders right now in the streets if they take us away, some others will come and join, because they receivize it's not only because of the economic disaster and social crisis in the end it's about human dignity and freedom and the possibility that our children and our kids that are being killed at this time have a future in our country.

>> i know the opposition is fed up with one of the worst murder rates in the world, rampant kidnappings what's believed to be the world's highest inflation, there are shortages of basic goods and even electricity in a country that's believed to have the world's largest oil reserves ma rude owe accuses the opposition of wanting to stage a coup, what do you hope the demonstrations will lead to? >> we have seen a long history in the world when you face a dictatorship, because how do you call all government a regime that persecutes, has repression, that tortures young students that have been detained and censorshipcensorships how is the called. we are facing a regime that has decided to radicalize and depot presence in these last house you mentioned what happened last night. it's undescribable the degree of

fearness and brutality that we saw not only in caracas as you mentioned, but throughout the country. this criminal paramilitary gangs that are protected by the government but also the national guard, fired to innocent and specific protesters and they even followed them in to their private homes where they they were looking for i safety, they took them away. they hit them and now we have dozens of detained protesters throughout the country. so at this point, what we want and what we will move along is a civic movement, every day more organized that proves and presses -- and expresses the degree of desired and passion for freedom and democracy and that makes this regime listen and understand what our country desires. >> now, the violence that we have seen through the internet is frightening, not just in

caracas as you said, this is happening throughout the country. a beauty queen was shot to death during a peaceful demonstration in valencia. how much do you know about what's going on in the rest of the country? given that there is so little informing to be had. >> we have zeina received a lot of information, people have called social media as you say, videos simply are heartbreaking when you here those young kids saying they are killing us because we are fighting for our future. and when you hear their mother's say now i will go out and keep on fighting along my son. and this is the degree of consciousness that makes me be absolutely convinced that they will not be able to suppress undermine and dominate venezuela. it's important that the world understands how humans' rights are being violated every day, every hour throughout the country. and that you help us make the

world know how violent this is and it's getting and accelerating day after day. >> it's been reported that the journalists have had their things stake a within, and threaten today take cnn spanish off the air. with so little of this information getting out. i know you are planning massive demonstration on his saturday, what are you hoping to accomplish? >> here journalists do not risk themselves. and sometimes not even giving us a chance to speak through their media. but citizens are aware that this movement is growing day after day. and even though the government with this violence wants people to inhibit from participating

they certainly underestimate the degree of compassion and consciousness that is being proven and shown first by the student movements that started this process, but that has been supported by union leaders it, grassroots organizations and certainly common citizens that understand the amount and degree of responsibility that is on our shoulders a generation. >> we will stay on top of this story and we thank you for taking the time. and what i know is an incredibly business and i difficult time. congresswoman, thank you for joining us. >> thank you very much. switching topics now to the perils and problems that come with reaching out diplomatically to engage the world's rogue states. it's a tactic my next guest calls dancing with the devil. one that critics might say was on display in vienna on thursday where iran and world powers including the u.s. announced that they had reached an agreement on a timetable for

negotiation on his iran's nuclear program. for more i am joined here in new york by michael rube run ruben,a resident schoo scholar and the r of the dancing with the devil the perils of engaging rogue regimes. thank you for being us. they were all smiling about this, is there a point to be smiling? did we get anything? >> it's premature. this is ideal to talk about having ideal and often tiles with the history of the negotiations with iran, it's two steps forward, two steps back. >> i want to play something that president obama said in his inaugural address. >> to those who claim to power through corruption and deceit, and the silencing of decent, know that you are on the wrong side of history. but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist. >> you probably agree that the feeling behind that statement is fine, but you don't disagree -- you disagree with the pack at this cal of it do you think he

sets himself up for failure with that in. >> i do. the fundamental misunderstand that go he has isn't about diplomacy but rather how it should be conducted the movement effective talk comes after years of preparation, of setting the right circumstances president obama sees talk as the beginning of the process rather than the end. >> you wrote recognizing a rogue state -- >> the pornography in his case. >> saying i know it when i see it. but anthony lake security adviser to press clinton wrote details of what he thought these states were, ruled by clicks, aggressive and defiant, suppress human rights promote rad yale ideologists and are immune to traditional deter dents what do you see are the biggest rogue states? >> north korea and islamic republic of iran are the big two. iran not because of its deposit mats but because of the role of the islamic revolutionary guard

core but i got my last tease seize a to pakistan because i included them because of their role of their isi. >> their intelligence service that huh been helping the taliban. and ukraine, given the circumstances there, would i consider them as rogue? >> no, i wouldn't. i kr-r them being chaotic. but the whole point of a rogue state is it's a stale that doesn't simply a bid by by the normal rules i did diplomacy. this is a difference between an ahead vizzare and anahead very . my first contact with the taliban was before 911 when they ran country but they are rogue and don't abide by the normal rules of diplomacy. >> the u.s. has negotiateed with north korea and iran, your two

big rogue states, we have been doing this for decades with in most cases little success, you quote nicholas burns is telling the senate foreign relations slit committee we will be no worse an ofoegbu of if we try diplomacy and fail. but you think there can be a very big price if we try diplomacy it and doesn't go in wheranywhere. >> first let's take iran. we have seen the execution rates skyrocket. who led the dialogue of civilizations we have the issue about whether our opponent is sincere or not. when the americans sit down oftentimes we are sincere but can't project our own value system to our a reason ends are they simply trying train down the clock that's what the north koreans did. what scares me if you look at the statements of the nuclear negotiators they hold the north korea as the model to emulate not condemn.

>> speak softly but carry a big stick lie teddy roosevelt. is that where you think the military might have to be used at least in a buildup in order to get things achieved diplomatically? >> i don't want to use military force, but let's look at reagan and gorbachov. they sat down and talked and diplomacy was successful but that was after staging plastic missiles inside europe. you have to use all the elements of national power together. diplomatic, economic, and military. that's what works. >> but what about american weariness with war? >> that's ultimately the big problem we have right now. but military strategies don't just mean war antonio, they can mean containment as well, not a rhetorical strategy the ability to have carrier strike groups in the persian gulf. >> you end the book by saying when presidents embrace dialogue spin sensitives as a solution to rogue behavior, when hope trumps change, the u.s. does not win peace but instead hastens conflict. that seems a pretty direct hit

at president obama specifically what he did in syria. >> actually, if you look at the book, the book is pretty critical, not only of president obama, but of president reagan. it's really bipartisan look at the history over the last half century of the problem of the specific subset of adversary which we would call rogues. >> again we have to carry the big stick? >> ultimately we have to care irrelevant the big stick if we don't want to use it. i would argue for example, in the middle east wars are not caused by oil or water, they are caused when one side becomes very overconfident and it's important to insure that that over confidence doesn't lead to a reactive conflict. >> they feel something might happen, though, if they don't behave. dancing with the devil the perils of engaging rogue regimes, michael ruben good to have you on the show. >> thank you, antoine yes. >> time to see what's trending on al jazerra's website. >> the u.s. department of homeland security has backtrack odd a recent proposal.

last week documents revealed the agency wanted a private company to create a national database of license plate information. information that is collected by cameras set up on things like toll booths police scars and traffic lights. but it's not just the license plate number is recorded it's also the date, time, location vehicle, when the picture was taken. accord to this proposal, immigration and customs enforcement planned to ute the data to pursue criminal immigrants but privacy advocates say it's an over reach the katherine crump an attorney with the aclu is happy to hear the government has backtracked but says it's still unexplained by the proposal was put forward and why it's been withdrawn. viewer lilith is skeptical saying. >> you can read more it the website america.aljazerra.com.

>> thanks her mel. up next extremism up close, incredible access to the taliban. and examining injuries at the olympics, one sport you would never expect to be dangerous. and later on, fraternities run amuck inside the fierce tug-of-war for control of campus life across the country.

>> i'm joie chen, i'm the host of america tonight, we're revolutionary because we're going back to doing best of storytelling. we have an ouportunity to really reach out and really talk to voices that we haven't heard before... i think al jazeera america is a watershed moment for american journalism an al jazerra exclusive that takes us inside the taliban to give us a glimpse of what the war in afghanistan looks like

from the taliban's point of view. even if the u.s. gets the afghan government to agree to a security agreement that would leave some u.s. forces in afghanistan, the first line of resistence to the taliban will be the u.s.-trained afghan national army. al jazerra's fault line shows a journalist following taliban fighters as they attack an afghan national army base. >> i am acutely aware that i wouldn't have been allowed here to film them unless they wanted the world to see what they showed me. >> the fact that the used the media to establish their point of view and get their kaza cross, they should. we certainly do. >> it's an unusual and rare insight in to the other side and joining us now to discuss this is michael owe happen lan director of foreign policy research at the brookings institution, he is also the coauthor of the book touching it out in afghanistan, he joins us from our washington, d.c. studio. michael great to have you with us. if u.s. troops withdraw from afghanistan altogether, is the

afghan national army ready? this film shows the taliban seemingly operating freely and with virtual impunity about an hour from kabul. >> great questions. first of all i would say that any time one unit is attacking another in warfare, and the one unit gets to choose the time and place of the ambush, it's no surprise that they can carry it out. in other words, the fact that the taliban was able to plan this particular raid does not surprise me. the more important question would be, first of all, how well did the afghan army respond. and secondly are they preventing large scan sen tryingses from taliban from forming in the immediate environments, because they can prevent that with proper patrolling and use of intelligence networks among the local population, so from what i have seen in the film i found it fascinate in this sense that it gave more of a direct view of the way this whole war has been going on and i think a lot of people will be curious, they have been reading about the war,

they have been seeing statistic on his the war for a decade and very much appreciate a bit of a feel for what it's like visually and in real time. but it did not strike me it did not show them against a hapless police. >> this group did not seem terribly strong but were seemingly operating freely and walking freely down the streets and fairly close to the capital which did surprise me. let's take a look at some of the film that focuses on that attack. >> the plan is they told me is to capture an afghan national army base. the only thing i know is that they say they are going to fight until they capture the base. they are not going withdraw. that told me exactly when -- they haven't told me exactly when they are going to attack, just said it will happen around sunrise. >> it didn't seem as you said like much more than a nuisance

attack, but how well armed are the taliban? >> what i am worry about with the taliban, they are armed in terms of ak47s and rocket propelled grenades and the roadside bombs those are their main weapons of choice, the problem is that they seem to have a limitless supply of fighters. it's not a popular movement among the general population, that's very important to drive home, but there are certain tribes and certain groups and certain headquarters over the border in pakistan which have proven resilient, which have proven willing to keep supporting the taliban and so you have essential a gorilla movement that is at a level of stays us and the government cannot really beat it down and we haven't been able to beat it down. it's not winning the ward, the cities are mostly in government hands and transportation too. some of the areas around kabul are contested and may increase as the nato forces dre down. my worry is not so much about

momentum or pop layer if i or big weapons just that it's managed to stay resilient throughout the last decade of conflict. that means i think they will be around a while. i don't expect them to win, i don't expect them to defeat the afghan army or police but they will try for create crisis of coconfidence, do spectacular attacks and try to erode the afghan will in this crucial year of transition. >> this group said this they are not aided by the pakistanis, but certainly they are not as close to pakistan as other groups are which may be getting aid from them. let's look at more of this attack, i think the taliban wanted the correspondent to go with them in order to show their power which may been a little exaggerated. >> and then suddenly the fighting begins.

the taliban's ready machine gun is ready. >> and the a.n.a. fight back. >> the taliban soldiers that i am together with have their last two men, it looks like they are not as positive as they were before they started attacking the base. and for these fighters, it looks like the situation might be about to get worse. >> they certainly lost this en counter and at times seemed hapless but certainly had some

fire power to go after them. you have written that they we sd not be that pessimistic about the future in afte afghanistan. the reality is the taliban does not have as many fighters as they when br* when th did when s withdrew. >> we called them freedom fighters and appreciated what they were doing, they weren't necessarily all fighting for a seventh century with supression of women's rights with and a throw back to centuries ago of, you know, of lack of education and lack of rights for nonbelievers. he were, in that sense in, at that case against the soviets, just trying to drive an occupier out of their country. and a lot of the people in the government now were leading the military, were freedom fighters. and so you are right, at that time it was a quarter million strong and from all different major tribal groupings, today the taliban is from certainly parts of the community and probably includes 20, 30, 40,000

fighters. that's more than i wish they had. and, again, they have been resilient. and they have been able to keep it going. and it's true they get a lot of their support from inside of afghanistan, although they have important sanctuaries for command and control over the border, that's been a big part of the problem. it's not a trivial enemy, i acknowledge that. but i think -- >> do you think the number will grow in americans leave? >> i think the afghan army and police will be really tested. and i think if we left altogether they would face a very difficult year or two a higher risk of mission fair all and of defeat than i would want. i'm not sure the taliban will grow in size quickly, what you could see is eye cries i of confidence in the afghanistan people trying to build a new nation and moving back home if they had gone in exile or trying to stay put, live in the cities and send their kids to school and believe in the new way of life and government and all of the sudden they'll have doubts if this prove, if the taliban scores some spectacular victories if made owe withdraws altogether.

it's the presidential race goes badly. we have to be attentive to those things. if that begins that could lead to a general unraveling of the general support for the government, the military, the army, that's how i think things could get worse. not by the taliban radically growing in size, i don't think they have the support to grow quickly in size. >> a brief final question, the correspondent is an afghan, he was allowed in by the taliban, he had been kidnapped once by them. what do you make of the fact that they allowed him to do what he did? >> i think that in many ways because this attack was relatively small scale and localized and very typical of the kind of thing we are seeing weekly if not daily in afghanistan, i view it as a microcosm of the whole war and not a big battle or a case where the journalist had to really worry, was he aiding and abetting the enemy. and the enemy didn't have to worry that he might give up information that was going to crucially set them back. it was such a limited engagement, that it really was just sort i've tiny window in to

the nature of combat in afghanistan and therefore i personally am not surprised that they let him do it and i have no major criticism of his doing so. i am not sure an american could have or should have done that. i think it probably did provide a useful window for a lot of people in to the conflict. >> thank you for joining us. >> thank you. next month fault lines will air more of this. on march 21st and 28th. straight ahead, curling may be an olympic punch line for late night talk shows, but could it also be very dangerous? we'll have more in our data dive. and the deadly side of greek life inside fraternitie fraterns popularity and the heinous act committed on campus.

today's data dive is bruising as the winter olympics drive down sochi, surprising numbers of emerging as to the most injury-prone sports. turns out courag curling not ass you think, the sport that makes housework look strenuous caused more injuries in the last winter olympics than speed skating, freestyle skiing, moguls, nordic combined, biathlon and luge. that's right, hurling down a track at more than 80 miles an hour was safer than sweeping a broom over ice for a minute at a time. this is all according to a study of injuries at the last winter olympics in 2010. from the british journal of sports medicine. speed skaters may look more athletic and daring than durings but less prone to injury. same for lugers and freestyle skiers. surprisingly, snowboard cross had the highest rate of injuries in any events.

35%. that ithat is nearly double thet sport in terms of dangerous. bob let were most hurt in two areas, of the 287 injuries, the highest number 3 39 knee injuri. head followed close by by wounds, face, neck up ander back. same argue that's the dang their makes the games all the more exciting. coming up the dark power of practice fern afraternities arey more powerful than the colleges that house them?

>> that's a good question, nobody really nose fits worse or not. what we know is that students more and more and their parents more and more are changing and

they are saying, we don't think that the fraternity has right do this it. we are not going to suffer in silence, we are not going to keep the secrets that we are supposed to keep and parents no longer think, if i send my kid way to school and something happens to him, i'll just stay quiet. people are bringing these cases forward in civil litigation and we are learning a lot about what goes on behind closed doors of these from turns. >> is part of the problem we don't know if it's worse is because frat brothers cover up many of the issues that arise because of peer pressure? >> you know, a lot -- if the case that you mentioned of that student from new york, while he was dieing his fraternity brothers were googling head injuries being instead of calling 911 and getting an ambulance they were trying to see if he had a head injury. there is a real culture of try to fix it, keep it behind closed doors, don't reveal that you were involved in hazing and that culture can lead to terrible cases read about. >> you do point out the good work fraternities do as you just

did a moment ago, talking about the fund raids, they raised millions of dollars in charity, they donate millions of hours of community service every year and you also talk about how their alumni include u.s. presidents, senators, congressmen, a whole bunch of fortunate 500 ceos, so their contribution to his american life is unquestionable. >> when fraternity life is done right, it gives tremendous benefits and really their powerhouse fields are law, business and politics and they have produced some sterling men in those areas, the problem is from turns the way to think of them is like a really badly imagined franchise, if you go to mcdonald's in cleveland the bick mac looks like the mcdonald's -- the big mac in la. sigma could i on one campus can be fantastic and in the next look like criminal behave area there is no way to know. one frightening thing you addressed you men aids leading lawyer telling you fraternities

are quote the large industry in this country directly involved in the provision of alcohol to underaged people and that that creates all sorts of issues of liability that can stretch to the parents of kids involved even. >> well, this is one reason i would love for parents who have sons thinking of joining fraternity to his read this essay in the atlanta a lot of times i think maybe something will go wrong in the fraternity but he'll have insurance because every fraternity member has to pay dues that big these big insurance policies. the minute he does something wrong he's cuts off from the insurance and thrown out of the fraternity and these huge settlements are paid out of parent homeowners insurance if he needs a lawyer no insurance policy gets you a lawyer for civil defense his parents have to pay for the lawyer. there are a lot of expenses that fall on the parents' shoulders if things goes wrong. >> as you say rah bell vinnie has been part of fraternities since they began. what do you say to people no way trying to minimize the major incident that have happened this is about adults forgetting what

it was like to be kids and we are over reacting. >> well, i think you have two issues here, one is we do have helicopter parents who are much more involved with their kids in college than they were say 20 or 30 years ago and that's part of why we are finding out more of what's going on in fraternities but what we are talking about here these aren't the rough knocks of growing up. this is a long history of sexual assault, of death, of violent hazing. psychological trauma actual if these things happened in any other college group, if all of the french club members were having these kind of problems whole country would get behind figuring out what is going on at the french club for whatever reason fraternities get a pass in a lot of dangerous incidents that happen to otherwise healthy young kids, beloved by their parents, sent off at great family expense to college and sometimes coming home terribly brutalized. >> again, the article in the atlantic is entitle the dark power of fraternities. katlyn flanagan great to have you on the show, thank you. >> thank you. the show may be over but the

conversation continues our website aljazerra.com/considerthis or on our facebook or google plus pages you can find us on twitter at ajconsiderthis. we'll see you next time. ♪ ♪. >> good evening everyone. welcome to al jazeera america. i'm john siegenthaler in new york. carnage in kiev. a truce shattered, dozens are killed in the bloodiest day of protests in ukraine. an al jazeera exclusive. inside the taliban. an inside look at afghanistan. and double the federal minimum,. and together at last, korean families split by the conflict by north and