>> hi, i'm lisa fletcher, and you're in "the stream." zero tolerance policies are pen to keep schools safe. but are they going overboard and doing more harm than good for our kid? our coost, rajahad ali, is bringing in all of your feedback, and the question is, have we gone past the rational balance point in the wake. >> i'm doing the research for

the show, and some of the kids that get expelled, when we were growing up, we would probably get sent to the corner of the room. if that: >> people get afraid and do things based on fear, sometimes extreme actions occurring. >> we're watching with this. >> after the columbine shooting in 1999, zero tolerance policies became a traction and in some

cases, zero tolerance has gone too far. let me tell you about in of them. in pennsylvania, five-year-old madison windows suspended for making a terrorist threat with hello kitty bubble game. biting a pop start into the shape of a gun. kissing a girl on the hand. and zachary was suspended for bringing his combination fork-knifespoon to eat lunch. a grandmother was arrested for sending a knife to cut aished cake. and a boy for having a toy gun on a school bus. some students were expelled and it has jumped 34% in the last decades. minority students, including students with disabilities, are

punished more often and more harshly. so is there a rob with zero tolerance policies? and if so, do they need to be tweaked or overhauled altogether? for more, dan is also a former schoolteacher. adrian bruce a high school student and football player who was expelled for the rest of the school year for holding up three fingers posing for a photo. three is the number on his jersey but he was accused of holding up a gang sign. david terrella is arn attorney, who focuses on child advocacy, and thank you all of fur being here. so dan, what is going on here? dan, we had zero tolerance with drugs and weapons in schools, and now it seems to have morphed into something that covers

invitations of rules much. >> i think that you hit the nail on the head. we're suspending kids out of school for all sorts of minor infractions on the school code. for violating the dress code or for suspending fruit kids, kids who are disrupt tev otive or de. and in the past, they would go to the principle's office, and it's not the way it has always been. in the early 70s, 1.5 million kids were suspended out of school, and now 3 million kids are suspended out of school. that's enough to fill every major league football stadium and baseball stadium in the country. it's a policy that used to be just for kids who actually brought real guns, and we're

applying it to all sorts of minor miss behaviors, and we have gotten far afield of where we need to be. >> david, is this a case of bad policies or poor decision making and application of policies on the part of the adults in charge some. >> lisa, i believe that it's not the fact that it's not florida, and obviously, i'm a lawyer in florida, but there's a zero tolerance law, and i think that the law is appropriate, and it's watered down a little bit to allow the teachers and administrators more discretion. the law is there, and you hit it on the head. if you have a law that the teachers and the administrators are not properly trained, the law is irrelevant. the laws are on the books, and we need more education and sensitivity for training the school administrator. but you have to remember, we continue forget how we got her. we have to remember history.

since columbine in '99, there have been a number ever shootings in schools, and that's why we're here. the zero tolerance, i believe makes sense because it protects the vast majority of students. in florida public schools, it's over 2 million. you may talk about five or sex or ten cases that seem outrageous in florida, but the truth is we protect millions and millions of students from being harmed or from assault or drug issues, and i believe that zero tolerance works, and the allow laws law it. >> i want to get from your perspective, but adrian, so you got suspended for doing this, the number 3 on your jersey when you took your picture at school. and tell us how you first became aware that you were in trouble. what happened that day?

>>. >> i got called to the principal's office, and i walked in and the principal told me i was a gang banger, and i was like, no, i'm not. he said yes, you are, we have a picture of you gang banging in class, and he showed me the picture. and i told him that's my football number in american sign language, and he said, no, you're holding up a gang sign and he kept calling me a gang bangern. >> is your son a troublemaker in. >> no. >> has he had trouble in school or trouble with his teachers? >> no, he has never been in trouble. never. he's the class clown. >> so dan, wouldn't common sense tell you that if a student at school has had a good repour with the students and the teachers, that somebody would inquire of his character before accusing him of being a gang banger? >> certainly, we have to get back to common sense.

i think that the attorneys are confusing a narrow low where we have to suspend a kid who brings a real gun to school with zero tolerance now, which is an attitude, kicking kids out for every minor occurrence, every willful defines and disruptive activity. in wick county, we had police arresting kids for a water balloon fight. kids arrested where they throw a peanut on the school bus, and that's all of a sudden an assault. that's where we have gone way overboard. everyone agrees that safety has to come first, but it's a tiny fraction of the kids who are bringing guns to school. and a tiny fraction are for bringing a gun or an assault where there's a real injury. the vast majority are for these minor offenses and kids are being suspended and even expelled for repeatedly breaking the school rules, so it has gone

out of control. and when we talk about a narrow law, i think that the conversation is going off-track. >> michael, on twitter, a community member agrees with me and talks about the need for variances here. a six-year-old with a nail clipper: and dave, i went to go to you with jt's comment. for safety, aren't we going a little too broad? >> no, i don't. if you look at the florida law, and if you go back to the historical research on most of the other laws, most of these zero tolerances have escape

valves, or exceptions. i reviewed the florida zero tolerance, and there are two important issues. very important issues. you say zero tolerance, 100% with a straight jacket and no discussion, that's not true. if you read the law in florida, there are two important issues. one is that there happens to be a serious threat. and if you have an issue, with a young football student, doing a three finger sign, how is that a serious threat? so i think that the laws are there. and we have to have better training for the teachers and the administrators. dan, his research, and i read it, and he's an advocate for ucla, and i represent individuals as part of my practice that were victimized and bullied. so i've heard of hundreds and hundreds of victims and families over the years that talk about

the issues. it starts out with cyberbullying, and harassment and gender issues, and harassment and physical bullying, so i'm not talking about bringing weapons to school. i'm talking about that there are students out there in the country that have been victimized, with what you call bullying or schoolyard hostility or fighting, that type of behavior falls within the parameters of zero tolerance. if it's an example of throwing a piece of popcorn at someone, these teachers have to use discretion. it's a serious threat. >> i think that what everyone agrees on is the level of discernment and defining the areas in areas that are lacking. so can it hinder their chances of success? first, another way that you can interact with our show.

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[ unintelligible ]. >> they suspend them from school, and they don't get the work that they need and it puts them behind in their classes. >> we're talking about zero tolerance policies and whether they could being doing more harm than good. and dan, students are being treated like riels for harmless incidents. and what are the long-term consequences? are there long-term consequences for these kids? >> well, they're tremendous, and researchers are now being heard. even being suspended once in 9th grade is increases the risk of dropping out of school from 6% to 13%. and we have tracked kids in texas, and there's an increase in involvement for the juvenile justice system.

and this relates to the point about bullying. we want to use the whole tool kit that teachers and administrators have to stop bullying from happening in the first place, through training teachers and kids in social and emotional learning, and restorative practices. so most medium concerned about bullying want it to stop. and the way to do that is not to kick kids out of school where there's no adult supervision. we want more supervision, but not in the way to keep kids out of school. that's the worst you can do. and many of the kids doing the bullying, some percentage of those kids were bullied themselves. they're victims, and now they're victimizing others. to stop that cycle, we need more sound educational responses, and using a whole array of tools to keep that from happening.

i share the concern about bullying, but there's much more that can be done that's much more effective than kicking our kids out of school. >> the psychological consequences it can have on the kids: >> i want to go to you, you're a 15-year-old, and the school said that you might be a possible gang member, and lisa said she wants to give you a hug between the commercials, but adrian, talk about the emotional effect that it had on you to be suspended. >> because they were accusing me of being something that i wasn't. >> tell us more, i mean, how

did the other kids look at you? >> i mean, they looked at me the same because all of the students at my school that i hang around with know that i'm not a gang banger. >> how about the teachers, did they treat you differently? >> no, sir. >> hey, david, we're talking about some of the extreme responses to fairly minor things, and i'm wondering what it is, in your opinion, that makes these adults feel like they have no other options. dan talked about there being a variety of tools in the tool kit that aren't being used. and what is it that causes the teachers and the administrators to go to the extreme measures. >> i tell you what it is. they're afraid. the teacher is concerned about a

student. and if they do anything to act upon the student, the parents complain, the teacher may get fired, the school may be sued. and they do nothing -- remember, everyone understands since columbine and the other shootings that have happened since 1999, that is the backdrop to all of these zero tolerance laws. so if you have a teacher that is concerned about one, being sued by someone alleging at always that the parent made. the administration is often not supporting the teacher, and the teacher is left alone. if the teacher does nothing and it turns out to be a problem and there is a shooting, the first thing they do is sue the teacher. so it's a fear. i have always advocated, and i was involved in florida law, if the teacher knows that they will be supported by the administration, and if they do

the right thing, they can't be sued, which is an issue in florida. so in florida, the teacher's administration to come together around the victim and put their arms around the victim so the bully knows that you're not just victimizing this one student. the school administration and everyone will be around to take care of the victim. >> if i could say, most of what we're talking about had nothing to do with violence or shootings. we're talking about 95% of the kids being kicked out of the school are for non-violent infractions of the school code. this is a tremendous problem. if you're worried about the gangs, for example, kicking the kids out of school, everyone who has done research on justice, to push back against gangs says that we have to find new ways to keep the kids in school, and not find ways to push them out of school. >> janet, you look for ways to

teach kids x. are you concerned is that by having the drastic responses, we're not teaching them how to act and have an appropriately measured response, but instead, just an extreme response? >> well, yes. i just think like this, you know, if you put them out of school, i mean, you're pushing them away from their friend, and stuff that they love to do, which is going to school. my son loves to play football. he's a football player. and that really hurt his feelings, to not be able to go to school and be with his friends and interact with his classmates. and i guess what i'm trying to say is, with kicking him out of school is just not the right thing to do, i think.

there are other ways. >> karen, we have feedback: >> there's a tremendous racial disparity as well. orleans we wouldn't see a huge increase in kids being suspended. we have gone from 12% of black kids being suspended in the 70s. and now one out of every four black students has been suspended at least once, and it's outrageous. there's racial injustice and denial of educational opportunity. especially when we learn that there are all sorts of ways to address misbehavior that are much more effective and keeping

kids in school. >> so you're saying that it's disproportion at for kids of color. and zero tolerance policies, should they be reworked? >> my name is kobe williams. i go around training people to do this type of work that we do in chicago. and i'm in "the stream" right now.

>> welcome to "the stream." and we're talking about zero tolerance policies in u.s. schools, and whether they could be doing more harm than good. and raj, we asked the community if they think that the policies should be reformed and how? >> a lot of them want to create

a nurturing environment instead. jeff said: >> david, one of the tweets that raj just read suggested that we need a nurturing environment. and there's nothing that makes victim advocates go crazier than mentioning that we need a nurturing environment for the perpetrators. does that kind of talk get thrown away too loosely and the kids who are not misbehaving

fall through the cracks? >> i agree with dan that we need to reeducate and redirect the bullies. if a bully in middle and high school and college bully, we're going to be working with them. they're going to be the workplace bullies. we need to take care of the victims, my belief first, we need to take care of the bullies, and these laws, they have exceptions, it's all discretionary. the zero tolerance is not 100% tolerant. as more training is needed, i think we're doing a good thing >> so if zero tolerance already allows for discretion, how do you get them to use discretion? >> in california and other states, they're suspending kids for willful defines or disruption, so these vague or subjective categories, we shouldn't be suspending any kids

for some of these categories. it makes no sense. and that's where we see the largest racial disparities, and kids with disabilities, twice as likely to be suspended out of schools as their peers. that's the question, are they getting the support to be successfuller being pushed out of school? >> the programs like my brother's keeper that the obama administration started, a mentoring program, when a kid is disciplined, they're put into an environment where they learn to change their behavior? >> yes absolutely, and i represent the disparents research collaborative, and we'll be rolling out some of these before congress, we have a briefing coming up, and we'll be posting all of the new research, and it's very important. because as the department of justice has given schools notice, that if they're pursuing

an unsound educational practice and it's having an impact on kids with color or disabilities, or lgbtq, that may be a violation against our federal rights protection. wbe kicking kids out of school, and there's no guarantee for adult supervision. and in these huge disparities that we're seeing, it's outrageous. >> jt says: >> okay, adrian, we have about 30 seconds left in the show. >> a child makes mistakes, even with my son, it was a mistake because he was holding up his football number, but being a child in school, kids are going to make mistakes, that's what you grow from, it's better to make a mistake while you're young instead of not being corrected and doing the same thing when you get older. >> good point, good note to end

the show o. and thanks to all of you. until next time, raj and i will see on you line. >> good evening, i'm john seigenthaler in new york. new revelations about the jetliner may have been off-course and what the malaysian government knew. what happened to flight 370? coming up, the suspicions, the search, the agreeing families. crisis in ukraine. russia tries to tighten it's grip on crimea while diplomatics