>> you're watching al jazeera america. i'm john seigenthaler in new york, and breaking news to tell you about. new developments in the miss ing malaysia airlines flight. the australian prime minister

says the two objects may have been found from the secret. other authorities in australia say the largest image was an object of about 78 feet, and to locate those objects, the royal australian military has deployed the orion aircraft early this afternoon local time. so it is probably about 4 o'clock australia time in the afternoon there. search planes will arrive about 8 o'clock. another plane will be sent to drop marker buoys. it could give clues as to where the malaysia airlines plane drifted. a ship is also on its way to the site. it's now several days away. this wreckage that they found was about 15 hunt miles off the coast of australia. the australian are in close collaboration with multinational teams that have been working on

the mystery sips the plane disappeared 12 days og. weather conditions are not good. in the southern indian ocean. the australian maritime safety authority has emphasised that the objects will be very difficult to find despite this lead. and they refuse to speculate about what the objects are until they could be investigated further. let me just say about that. in the news conference that was held a little while ago, there's one object that is 75 feet long. that apparently is bouncing up and down and floating in the water. both those objects may indicate a debris field, and there may be more than the two objects seen on the satellite. >> the australians say that the

satellite information is credible, meaning that they are the right size, they have no information about when the search teams may get additional imagery. they said they are lacking primarily for a confirmation that the objects are or are not part of the malaysian airline flight. i want to play sound from john young, the general manager of the emergency response for the australian maritime safety authority. >> a m.s. a coordination rescue center australia received satellite imagery of objects possibility related to the ascertain for the missing aircraft flight 370. a m.s. a received assessment of the images this morning, 20th of march. the images were captured by satellite. they may not be related to the

aircraft. the assessment was provided by the ago, australian geointelligence organization, as possible debris south of the search area, that has been the focus of the search operation since monday, 17th of march. the image is in the vicinity of the search area defined and searched in the past few days further images are expected after considerably satellites were redirected to take high resolution images of the areas of interest. these will be provided in due course. four aircraft have been reoriented to locate the objects. approximately 2,500km south-west of perth. as a result of this information. a royal australian air force orion aircraft arrived in the area about 1:50 pm this afternoon.

a further three aircraft have been tasked by rcc australia to the area later today including a royal new zealand air force orion and a united states navy poseiden aircraft. the poseiden aircraft should be on screen now. the second australian orion departed royal australian air force base pearce at 2:00 pm this afternoon, and should be on scene at 6:00 pm this afternoon. the new zealand orion is due to depart at 4:00 pm this afternoon and should be on scene at 8:00pm a royal australian air force c130 aircraft has been tasked by rcc australia to drop data marker buoys. they say marker buoys assist rcc australia to provide information about water movement to assist in drift modelling and will

provide an ongoing reference point if the task of relocating the objects becomes protracted. a merchant ship that responded to a shipping broadcast issued by rcc australia on monday is expected to arrive in the area at 6:00 pm, having been diverted by rcc australia. the royal australian war ship hmas "success" is on route to the area, but is some days away. she is quick to locating any objects located and proven to be from flight 370. the focus for a m.s. a is to sustain the search operation with all available ships and aircraft. the ships and aircraft are searching for signs of the missing aircraft. weather conditions are moderate in the southern indian ocean where the search is taking place. however, poor visibility has been reported, and this will

hamper both air and satellite effort. a m.s. a continues to hold concerns for the passengers and crew on board, and i must emphasise that these objects may be very difficult to locate and they may not be related to the search. air-commodore mc-gary and i will be happy to take questions. >> reporter: what did the objects look like? what did they appear to be. >> they are relatively indistinct. i don't profess to be an expert in assessing the imagery. those that are expert indicate that they are credible sightings. the indication to me is of objects that are a reasonable size, and probably awash with water, bobbing up and down outside of the surface >> reporter: are you able to give us an idea of size - like of a basketball or seat cushion

>>. >> no, larger than that. the largest i have seen is assessed as 24 metres. there's another that is smaller, and a number of other images in the general area of the biggest one. >> you said an aircraft arrived at 1:50, that's almost two hours ago. did you have any report. >> the aircraft reported on the weather on scene. that's where you get the information that there is... >> that was john young from australia, just a little while ago, talking about the discovery, the significant discovery. we do not know whether these two objects came from the mair flight 37 -- malaysia airlines flight but it is a possibility. >> lisa stark, and alan diehl, and todd curtis, our aviation contributor are standing by.

lisa, how significant is this tonight? >> as john young later said in the press conference - this is the lead, probably the best lead we have, but he went on to say we have to find this, get there, and see what we have found. he is cautioning that although it looks very promising, they have seen a large object 79 feet long, and another object and others as well, which as you indicated could indicate a debris field of some sort. they have seen that, but they don't know what they have until they know what they have. but obviously it's - it's very promising given the location, given what they are seeing on the satellite. they just really need to get out and take a look. he said they may not know right away. it may take a few flights and better visibility for them to figure out what they are. >> we saw satellite images from

the chinese that were bogus, they looked like a blob. they did not choose to show the images this time, which is significant. and i think also the other thing that i found most interesting was when we heard from the authorities in australia, that it might indicate a debris field, that the objects might indicate a debris field. it's hard to understand what that is. >> when the prime minister spoke earlier and told parliament there that there was - there were two objects found, but during the press conference the maritime authority did seem to indicate there were a number of objects. obviously two more larger objects, one somewhat large, the other a little smaller, indicating that there may be other pieces of a possible pieces of an airplane in the same general vicinity, which is what they are hoping they'll find. >> you mentioned the prime

minister. we heard from the prime minister, the first indication that something was happening, and then the maritime authority. let me go to alan diehl. how big a deal is this, alan? >> like lisa said, we have to wait until we get our hands on the objects before we really know. what bothers me a little bit. 79 feet is a big chunk. the chinese objects looked 70 by 70. the prime minister suggesteded they were long. 70 or 80 feet long with a blob on the end. what could that be. it may be the wing and the fuel tanks, we think to empty, so it may float. it's consistent with what we may expect. >> how long are the wings? >> it's over 200 feet. each is over 100 feet. that's within the ballpark. if the fuel cells were empty and

the wing tore off. it's possible that they might float. that's interesting. >> when he says a blob on the end, i mean what goes through your mind is a winning attached to the fuselage of the plane. >> that's what i was thinking, make it was the the joint with the views large, right. >> i -- fuse large, right. >> we have been careful not to speculate in a big way. i think that given the prime minister of australia's comments, and then the head of the maritime authority's emergency response, that they are taking this seriously, and they call in credible information. what do you see when you listen to all this,ed to? >> i see that this is - as i alluded to before. it's a close cooperation between the civilian and military authorities. during the press catholic church, they mentioned the aup

geospacial organization were using information from that organization. it is a military organization, the closest equivalent in the united states is the national reconnaissance office. they take imagery and other information from military satellites and use it for national defense and other nation national purposes. >> how detailed could the pictures be? >> that's a closely held secret. >> it's classified. >> the pictures that the chinese used showing objects in the water. that seemed to be, based on what i've read, far less detail than the equivalent satellites for the united states. that is, the satellites that have been in place for years. probably they could identify a large piece of wreckage. you might recall pictures from

2009, the tail of that air france tail floating in the water awash, much like they are describing the wreckage was today. there's a distinctive pattern on the tail. well, i'm not saying this is happening here. if you have the same situation with the malaysian aircraft, there's a large pattern on the vertical pin of the malaysian triple 7, if that similar object was floating in the water. that is something that could be seen with the satellite. >> explain what vertical pattern you are talking about. >> okay, if you look at the pictures of the fleet from malaysian airlines, you have this blue and white patten on the tail that is -- >> go back to - tom, can you go back to the picture of the plane for a second. you are talking about the actual colours on the side, the logo and the colours of a plane, is

that it. >> that's it, not necessarily the logo, but on the tail section, the vertical stem, there's a blue and red. that is something that is several feet. that is something that the satellite in the united states, if it's a clear day, that should be discernible with some of the assets that the u.s. has. again, the conference danced around the fact, but the australians have had a close cooperation with u.s. for years. there's a large facility in the center of australia, which has been there for decades, used to download and process some of the information from the u.s.'s electronic and other spy satellites. again, i don't want to harp on the point, but there are assets that are used by the yate and australia that are not

accessible by the malaysians. the malaysian authority suggested that they share some of the definition merely, but there's no word if that was shared. >> i got the sense, lisa, that john young of the maritime authority was holding the cards close to the vest in the press commence. >> you know, he gave hints of what they may know, and they are not saying by saying, look, obviously we have diverted a tonne of assets. it's incredible enough for us to wash everything over there. he talked about how he's not a satellite expert, but others looked at it. people who could take a look at the imagery and see clearer what was there. >> all right. alan, i want to wrap up the conversation. on the pink job or whatever that

todd was tucking about, if it's the winning, i don't have picture of the malaysian wings, but at the bottom they don't have a distinct paint job. you'd have to look closely at that. i think until we get our hands on the debris or pieces of debris, we will not know. >> we have spent a lot of time in the last 12 days talking about what we don't know. there's a lot we don't know. there's new information. i want to thank lisa stark, alan diehl, and todd kurt us for talking about this. the breaking news has been there may be two pieces of the malaysia airlines jet found in the indian ocean, 1500 miles off the coast of australia. we heard from the prime minister of australia telling parliament today about the find. also, from the maritime

authority of australia about this find. we'll continue to cover this story throughout the evening. i'm john seigenthaler. we'll go to "consider this" now. which is in progress, and stay with al jazeera america for this breaking story. thomas drayton will have the latest.

>> as the irs continues to face

backlash over cufertion h accusations that it treated conservative groups harshly, alleging widespread corruption, misconduction and abuse, wastin wasting taxpayer money, are these contained in smaller offices or i irs as a whole, david k. johnson who also writes for taxanalyst.com, he won the pulitzer price. david you wrote that these massive weighs, have let tax cheats get away with it and this potentially cost the government dollars. how much revenue is being lost?

>> well, we don't know exactly how much money. there's not an official number that the irs has, about a billion dollars a day of lost. i don't put much credence in that number at all. per waysive problems with -- pervasive problems with managers, consistencily they talk about the high standards of conduct, the lack of abuse of taxpayers, a lot of favoritism and a lot of abuse of people. of course anybody who works at a big office may have some idea of uneven management. >> is that what could have happened here? unbalanced work loads, lazy managers, it does seem to be something that does come up in a lot of other places. >> it does. what's significant here is that

the irs is under incredible stress. the size and complexity of the tax system has grown you enormously but we have -- grown enormously but we have cut the tax police. that's what the irs is, the tax police, just like the cops riding around in cars are the street police. as a result there are not enough people to do the work that needs to be done. and i think this is making the internal problems radically worse. a long time irs attorney named jane kim went on the record. she sent a long can letter to individual offices and i point out many of these ar verifiable. that would be a crime to lie on the time sheets as a federal employee that's a serious problem. if some lawyers have virtually no work to do and others are

being ordered to work seven days a week, that's a violence of federal labor law as well as policy. >> and this is not just a question of losing revenue, it's that taxpayers are not getting treated or getting the kind of attention that they deserve. >> exactly. you and i as wage-earners we became of can't cheat on our taxes. we have an automated tax system that is the marvel of all the other tax collecting agencies around the world. but people who are an investor, landlords, i've been one, business owners, i've been one of those, income from those sources are not verified. that's where you have to have enforcement efforts. lawyers have been told to concede multimillion dollar cases, simply because they don't have the revenue and as she put

it, obvious tax cheats, end quote, are getting away without paying their taxes. we should be concerned about a system that only efficiently taxes wage earners. >> blatant drug use in government facilities that weren't addressed until complaints went outside the irs to treasury oversight. is there a systemic problem in thers? >> in the irs? >> i think there's a systemic problem in the irs that a system doesn't work well. when i was on the l.a. times i was writing about the l.a.p.d. what ms. kim is worried about and i thought it ought to be our focus is, she says there's a high degree of professionalism and treating taxpayers well, that the cincinnati story as you know antonio i've shown to be just complete nonsense, there was no scandal in cincinnati

but -- >> on the other hand, david, again that systemic problem question, if you look at what happened in cincinnati there serge was higher and more intense scrutiny of conservative groups compared to liberal groups and even though the fbi has found this crimes were committed, we still have lois le ler learne lerner coming out and -- >> secondly and more importantly, the reason conservative -- the only groups this had their tax status taken away were conservative groups. think of a building inspector who has brought a set of building plans and looks at them as an expert and says this building will collapse and then starts demanding that those people who presented building plans that don't follow the law, that they explain and they alter their behavior. we have seen a number of the

requests for tax exempt status that were presented by conservative groups. they were not properly presented if the intent was pure and if they weren't -- >> but were all the liberal ones presented well? because if you look at the numbers the liberal, the requests have no -- >> yes, you've hit upon what i think is the key problem here is that many more of these conservative applications have problems. and the person who made the decision in cincinnati to scrutinize these is a self-described conservative republican who has said this was entirely a matter of professional judgment and his view and that of his staff as to these application and their fulfillment of their duty under the law and all of that is compounded by a 1959 regulation from the eisenhower years that is goofy and shouldn't be there. there is no evidence whatsoever, that this is targeting and it is unfortunate that the irs used that word, but kim the lawyer

who spoke up here, i've had several irs employees reach out to me today. her concern is that if you don't deal in this environment of not enough staff with overworking people you are going to get mistreatment of taxpayers and that's one of her concerns and we should be concerned about that. we need to have an irs that is large enough to do the job of raising the money that we need. because there are no liberties, there is no wealth creation, indeed there is no united states of america, without taxes. >> it does affect all of us, david j. johnson, thanks for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> switching topics to the crisis in venezuela and new efforts of the president nicholas maduro, venezuela's congress voted for investigation of criemtion including inciting civil war. called on venezuela's attorney general to strip

machado of her legislative immunity, called her a terrorist and a fascist before her fellow lawmakers and attacked her for her role of antigofs protest government -- government protests that have left 30 dead. >> this congresswoman is a murderer, murderer. >> johns hopkins school of advance studies, michael, good to have you on the show. how important is maria carina machado to the movement? >> i think if this action of stripping her of her immunity advances which i view as very likely it is only really going to continue to inflame the protest movement on the streets

in the weeks ahead. >> definitely inflammatory there in front of all the lawmakers, he was calling her a terrorist a fascist, an asas aassassin. she can't be tried without go-ahead and another vote to strip her immunity. president maduro's party controls congress. does it control the prosecutor and the supreme court as well? >> i think that you know, what -- i think table is set for this to advance. and i think that's very unfortunate. i think that unfortunately die process will probably not be given -- due process will probably not be given a good process here, for maria corina. what we're seeing right now is more evidence of us saying that venezuelans often utter to each other and is often mentioned in

the press was that nicolas maduro the current president is no chavez. that is to say while chavez certainly committed some excesses in terms ever his respect for the opposition, in terms of tolerance of different voices, maduro has taken a much harder line towards the opposition. and in fact, it's probably not serving his own political interest and it's certainly not serving the interest of human rights in the country. >> so he arrested opposition leader leopoldo lo leopoldo loams last month. leopoldleopold lopez last >> such a move woul would implya

very high move for the government. some sectors of chaveztaing movement in the government. his remarked, i view it as very unlikely that the government would cps opposition enrique capriles. >> you think this is just an opposition tactic? >> i think it takes place in a context in which the government has decided that it wants to isolate some of the factors of the opposition, that it sees as leading this protest movement in the street. but i think this is a miss calculated strategy in a sense trying to as it were cut the head of the snake off. i think that's really going osort ever coil back against government as it were and i think that the moves to isolate these groups is really going to inflame the protest movement even more. and at the same time, i don't think that the government

strategy of trying to make the more radical elements of the opposition come out are necessarily going to serve its interests and certainly not going to help make the country a more pleasant place in return. over the weekend we saw some signs and on monday we saw some signs of there being a kind of light at the end of the tunnel of getting out of this difficult dark moment the venezuelan politics. this tends to put us back in the tunnel and we don't find way out at there moment. >> invited by the organization of american states to speak about the situation, she's already left the country. any chance that they might want to isolate her altogether and just not let her return? >> you know i think that's something that is being discussed right now, as sort of self-imposed or sort of

coercively induced compile by maria machado. but i think government is still likely to let her return to venezuela. she may not want to do that. living in compile or returning to her country. but dealing with the court system that certainly the opposition doesn't believe is independent. so i think that that sets up a situation where she may not be returning to venezuela but at the same time, she may view it as in her interest and in the opposition's political interest to sort of confront the government along these lines and make it you know deal with this problem by maybe perhaps putting her in jail along the similar line that happened to leopoldo lopez. many in the opposition, that sort of thing helps show the government's lack of commitment

and respect for the opposition. >> a venezuelan blamed terrorist after a municipal worker was shot and killed while taking down a street barricade in caracas. one of the big flash points for protest that 16 people were hurt there, some by bullets this a clash with the country's national guard. on? do you think it's going okeep escalating? >> -- to keep escalating? >> i don't know that it's continuing, in the sense it's continuing i could see where that would be considered an escalation. but i think -- i think the situation is at a bit of a stale made. i believe the government think it's, policies of containing these protest movements through the use of the state security apparatus is justified at this point. they don't see a reason yet to step back from that.

there was some sign over the weekend, capriles mentioned there were informal contacts with the government but i think those are going to be put in the freezer, in the events that happened in the past few deas days with maria carina machado. the epicenter of venezuelan politics but it still plays a very important role in the overall dynamic between the government and the opposition. >> there are lot of american interests involved in venezuela. michael mccarthy good to have you back on the show. time to see what's trending on the website. hermella. >> racial segregation. if you have to guess what part of the country was least are segregated? south and west are the most racially mixed compared to the

northeast and midwest parts of the country. many portion he of the sun belt were relatively new, housing developments around cities of las vegas and phoenix have no ration separation. all parts of the u.s. and the world has partially erased the remnants of racial separation deeply rooted elsewhere. young migrants are less likely to harbor discriminatory attitudes and more likely to be in mixed race relationships. can you read more about this at aljazeera.com. tweet us @ajconsiderthis. >> does march madness mess up american workplace is? and later, while you may want to get to sleep as soon as this show is over.

>> scared as hell... >> as american troops prepare to leave afghanistan get a first hand look at what life is really like under the taliban. >> we're going to be taken to a place, where they're going to make plans for an attack. >> the only thing i know is, that they say they're not going to withdraw. >> then, immediately after, an america tonight special edition for more inside and analysis. >> why did you decide to go... >> it's extremly important for the western audience to know why these people keep on fighting... ...it's so seldom you get that access to the other side. >> faultlines: on the front lines with the taliban then an america tonight: special edition, only on al jazeera america

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>> the most surprising thing for me is the size of the fires that come through. absolutely brutal. >> toughest place to be a firefighter. sunday at 9 eastern, on al jazeera america. >> there's no such thing as illegal immigration. >> al jazeera america presents... a breakthrough television event borderland a first hand view at the crisis on the border. >> how can i not be affected by it? >> strangers, with different points of view take a closer look at the ongoing conflict alex, a liberal artist from new york and randy, a conservative vet from illinois... >> are you telling me that it's ok to just let them all run into the united states? >> you don't have a right to make judgements about it... >> they re-trace the steps of myra, a woman desparately trying to reunite with her family. >> to discover, and one of their children perish in the process, i don't know how to deal with that. >> will they come together in the face of tradgedy? >> why her? it's insane. >> experience illegal immigration up close, and

personal. >> the only way to find out is to see it yourselves... >> on... borderland only on al jazeera america >> this is the real deal man... >> leading from behind, was the phrase an advisor to president obama famously used to describe the administration's approach to the crisis in libya. slamming the president's actions with respect to syria, iran and more recently, russia's takeover of crimea. has the perception of american hesitation become a reality we need to rectify? joining us is bruce jones, author of the book, still hours to lead, the tension between

rivalry and restraighten. brookings institution, past experience in middle east peace negotiations, crisis in the balkans, worked account united nations and the at the unitednations and still s time to join us. credit our time to lead, america does need to lead but not dominate. >> part of what motivated me to write this book was acknowledge we spent a lot of time over the last decade conflating the aspect of american leadership, with military power. that's an important part of our leadership but not the only thing. we talked a lot about american decline. fundamentals of american power, when i look at our military strength, our economic strength,

young population, growing population, energy boom, i reach the conclusion that we're an enduring power. >> there's no way we're going to lose our position of world leader any time soon? >> in the suite of tools that we have, we hear the rise of the bricks -- >> explain the bricks,. >> brazil, india china, south africa -- >> and you talk about indian and china. >> they are an important new factor but their interests sometimes overlap with ours, sometimes they are going to be challenging us, but nothing like the ability to challenge us like a dominant block of states would have. >> in that light you have written in every region at home critics decry the lack of american leadership and american withdrawal from the world stage. the question that brings up to me is how can we win?

if we withdraw then we get these complaints. if we intervene we get the yankee go home and the criefs cries of mairnamerican imperialism. >> that's what i mean by lead not dominate. india, brazil, south korea, and are willing to follow us under certain circumstances. we have to spend a lot of our energy, a lot of times to try olead with as broad of coalition as we can. >> you make the point that american will still be world's leader for a long time. you point out in interesting ways how much more powerful we are, not militarily but economically, education, our universities are so much stronger than the rest of the world. why are we seeing this

conventional wisdom just not abroad but in the united states thinking that we are weaker than we used to be? >> i think we spent a lot of time focusing on the rise of china, the rise of india, the rise of brazil. we assume that if wung is one ask rising, one is declining. we are still far and away the more important actor. we are reducing our military footprint in iraq and afghanistan. we did in iraq and we are now in afghanistan. that looks like decline, it is not decline. we are going back from an extraordinary high from the scale of overseas military deployment but our power is still very substantial. >> in what the what point is it getting bigger for economy? >> the overall scale of the chinese economy will be larger than ours. but if the lakers are playing my high school team and we have 11 guys and they have 11 guys we are equal. the chinese economy may reach

the same size as our but we are a more substantial economy. >> and how about the concepts of rivalry and restraint? >> i spend a lot of time traveling around to these capitols and there is an impulse to assert on the global stage and that leads them to try rival us. but they can't solve the problems around the world by themselves, and they rely on american power in a lot of ways. in a lot of cases there's an impulse to challenge and a recognition they can't do it. >> we need to project confidence you write because uncertainty will make things worse. and ask ease of we're seeing -- and we're seeing it in russia and crimea. we'll look forward to seeing you again, thank you for joining us, and the book is still ours to lead.

coming up, we know losing sleep is not good for us but brain damage? the co-author of the story is next. march madness is it really bad for the workplace? our data dive is next. >> these protestors have decided that today they will be arrested >> these people have chased a president from power, they've torn down a state... >> what's clear is that people don't just need protection,

they need assistance.

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>> today's data dive questions the negative impacts of march madness. the ncaa men's basketball tournament is a national phenomenon. and every year we hear workplaces will suffer. is that based on fact? msn survey are are complain that 86% of people will spend time at work checking their bracket online. takes that 50 million figure and multiplies it by the average hourly wage of 24.31. the result, an estimated $1.2 billion in lost productivity only over two days. but there is a lot of push back on whether this is all true. first the lost productivity numbers assume workers can't multitask.

second, is march madness really obigger distraction than people checking facebook or personal e-mail at work. third, only about 1 in 5 workers are actually distracted according to a study. march madness is a welcome distraction. another 57% said that checking brackets isn't encouraged but that it's fine in moderation. a bigger problem is not just watching your brackets but watching the actual games while you're supposedly working. yet another study found a third of i.t. departments are prepared to block or slow the streaming of march madness games on your office computers. but if work doesn't see benefits, smaller schools that do well in the tournament do. the countless hours of free advertising help. butler's admission recently dropped 50% after two straight final 4 trips. spike in enrollment when the team made the sweet 16 last year

and virginia commonwealth made a more than 20% rise since it made the final four in 2011. who knew college basketball could have a big and varied impact. coming up do all nighters cause brain damage?

>> start with one issue education... gun control... the gap between rich and poor... job creation... climate change... tax policy... the economy... iran... healthcare... ad guests on all sides of the debate. >> this is a right we should all have... >> it's just the way it is... >> there's something seriously wrong... >> there's been acrimony... >> the conservative ideal... >> it's an urgent need... and a host willing to ask the tough questions >> how do you explain it to yourself? and you'll get... the inside story ray suarez hosts inside story weekdays at 5 eastern only on al jazeera america al jazeera america. we understand that every news story begins and ends with people. >> the efforts are focused on rescuing stranded residents. >> we pursue that story beyond the headline, pass the

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associate professor ever medicine and a member of the sleep and si and circadian biology. this study shows that it causes brain damage in mice whoer sleep deprived? >> that's correct. it's a small portion of cells but it's that group of cells that is essential for your attention and also for mood and higher cognitive function. >> and how likely is it that this will translate to humans? >> i think it's very likely. we know that all across all of the mammal ian species, they have lots of transmitter to present to the whole brain. and they sleep when we sleep. and keeping them awake, when we stay awake, we felt that that was going to be likely to be a

metabolic insult to them, hurt the cells and indeed it does. >> many people try make.that sleep debt after working a lot of hours, pulling an all nighter for recovery sleep but you don't believe that is helpful enough? >> it is helping some. part of the reason we're sleepy is we have this drive to sleep and that part can be fixed with getting the sleep back. but when we really push ourselves, with day after day of short sleep, that's where we think that we have some changes that may be lasting. and we don't know whether they're irreversible or they're shortly lasting. attention span after humans are kept getting about four to five hours a night for a week, that even if you give them three nights to recover they still have lapse he in their attention after three full nights of recovery. so we do know that the recovery is short. it takes a long time oreally get

there and that short amount of sleep loss can be enough to have lasting effects. >> and you do raise the issue of the possibility that this could be irreversible. and the fact that this affects these cells very quickly. it only takes a few nights of sleep deprivation that the mice started seeing the effects. could it compound for time if you keep being sleep deprived an extended period of time? >> absolutely. we looked at the mice giving them a four day rest, the same as a night shift worker would have a four day weekend and going back to the same eight hour day for the next three nights and we see compounding of injury. consider it speaks to the fact that the recovery can take a little bit longer and we're going to have to figure out in humans house long is too long for it to be awake and we have a lot to sort out. but i think that this gets us started. >> this of course would impact

millions of americans who were shift workers. >> absolutely. >> for other reasons end up losing sleep. you say at first the brain's nerve cells and the mice actually reacted to protect the brain. but that that ability to protect itself lessened very quickly. >> that's correct. for just three hours of wakefulness, one thing when we were quite surprised with, three hours of wakefulness builds up ah a huge antioxidant response. without a protein present there's a huge amount of ox oxidative pressure presents. if anything were to reduce the cert 3, then even shorter amount of sleep loss would be detrimental to the brain. >> you could conceivably produce a medicine that could help the

brain protect itself and dial with the sleep deprivation? >> that's what we're most exciteabout. we have many heroes around the world who have to work around the clock in military operations for police force for health care purposes, et cetera and people just need to do this for their job from time to time. so a lot of people are going to have to pull all-nighters and it would be nice have something that protects their brains while they're awake, think it will substitute for sleep, i want to make that clear, people will have to get nice healthy sleep but hopefully we'll have something to protect the brainl brain along prolonged periods of wakefulness. >> what our tell people who have to spend long time at work? >> we all have done that. but the real mission is, don't push your body too hard. catch up what can you. sometimes a 20 minute nap is

enough that really helps the brain out tremendously that will help you keep going keep charging ahead. you have to do that from time to time but minimize your time that's not spent directly on what you really need to get things spent on so you have some extra time for sleep. and in the long run you'll find yourself much more efficient. >> i know you're going ocontinue your studies and look at deceased workers who were shift workers and see what happened to them. thank you dr. visi. >> thank you. >> the show may be over but the conversation continues. >> the ukraine crisis as tensions esalate >> russia for all inents and purposes showing no signs of backing down. >> crimea's vote rejected by the west... >> here in crimea, a lot of them say the west should just butt out... >> new santions looming >> mr. ambassador will those

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