conversation continues on the website. you can find us on twitter, facebook and google+. see you next time. hi, this is al jazeera america. i'm john seigenthaler in new york. state of emergency - mass evacuations across southern calve rah as scorching -- california as scorching heat and my winds fan wild fires. anger and anguish - mining catastrophe in turkey, hundreds dead, dozens trapped. the swift and ouster of jill abraham son, of the "new york times."

did gender play a role. >> plus, secrets and spying - the cost of the n.s.a.'s spy programme and your privacy. let's get right to the fires in southern california. they are threatening heavy by populated areas. suburban homes destroyed, schools closed as an army of the firefighters contains the flames. if anything, the situation is more dire with each hour. a huge brush fire forcing thousands to evacuate. carlesbad a city of more than 100,000. we go there. >> reporter: with california in the midst of the worst drought, it's not a matter of if there'll be wild fires, it's a matter of when. today, no less than six fires

are burning. there has been a local state of emergency declared. to help battle the blazes the most destructive fires are burning in carlesbad norted county. you -- north county. this house took the brunt of the fire. 12-15 others have been scro destroyed. this house is on fire. and the homes owners were looking for their dog. they found their dog. it is fine. as we drove into the area, you can see the burnt out swaths of lant coming up to a -- land that came up to apartment buildings and homes. you can only imagine how terrifying it is for home owners, it's not contained, it's burning out of control. thousands have been ordered to evacuate. they are closed tomorrow and friday as well. >> it's jennifer london

reporting. >> kevin corriveau told us things would get worse, and they are. he joins us now. >> as we go towards tomorrow things are just as bad. let's look at the big picture. this is a pattern we are familiar with. when you have a big pressure, it's bringing in the heat. you have record-breaking temperatures, no clouds or rain. it will continue. the winds and the heat all the way from the boarder to los angeles. these are the temperatures we are looking at, not changing from what we saw. from san diego, where the fire started, moving to the north. temperatures in los angeles, 100 degrees is expected. as we go towards friday. we start to see a little bit of a break in the weather pattern, dropping down to 92. we'll see the fire threat. when we get to saturday we see towards san diego, things get

things getting back to formal. a temperature of 74. the normal temp door of 70 or 69. we'll see more fears. windy conditions, dry, humidity into the single digits. there's not much we can do, but keep the people ready. turkey declared three days of mourning for the victims of the worst mining disaster ever. 274 confirmed dead. 100 others are missing. there was an ex-lotion at a fire -- explosion at a fire in the mine . andrew sim omedz is there. >> reporter: what was a rescue operation is now a procession of bodies carried to the service. a fleet of ambulances driving away the dead. this the aftermath of on

underground fire, explosion, poisonous fumes. every miners worst fear, now for the families a stunned ipp compression of the loss. rescuers did their level. most of the miners who died had no means of escape. hour after hour families waited in vain. >> reporter: it's a graham routine, every -- it's a grim routine. every so often a body arriving. hoping to recognise loved ones, hoping they are eye live. >> names of the dead were posted at a coordination center. the numbers kept growing. it was as if people couldn't bring themselves to believe the sfal of what had happened -- scale of what had happen. the timing couldn't have been worse. a shift change maximised numbers, a power failure meaning

the lift to the surface didn't work. fire and rescue teams pumped oxygen into the pits. it's thought most died from carbon monoxide poisoning. there are claims safety standards were not adequate. that was relevanted by the mine -- rejected by the mine's owner. the government gave it an all-year in march. water gas and tear canyons were used to clear demonstrators in ankara. prime minister recep tayyip erdogan visited the mine and the nearby town of soma where he was cheered in a small demonstration. he promised an inquiry. >> it's one of the biggest work accidents in our history. 77 million feel the pain, it's hard to go through the process.

we are sorry to lose the minors working to earn their living. i give my condolences to their families and the nation. >> whatever lies behind the disaster deep beneath the earth this country will take a long time to ab sorb the shock. some will never recover. >> now to the search for hundreds of missing nigerian school girls. it turned deadly. boko haram shot and killed four nieman soldiers in a -- nigeria soldiers in a night raid. the u.s. is increasing its involved, using drones and manned aircraft. >> a huge shake up in one of the most influential newspapers in the united states. the "new york times" today abruptly fired its executive editor after three years on the job. the pick to replace gaol abraham

sop is an historic choice. questions over why she was forced out is making headlines. >> reporter: at the "new york times" it was a bombshell. the newspapers executive editor was fired. she had been with the "the times" since 1997 and took the reins in 2011. >> reporter: the decision to replace the first female editor took many by police. it was announced and a newsroom was fold that abrahams was out. >> she presided over staff cuts and ush ared the paper into the digital age with a big revamp and the jump to paid digital subscriptions there were reports that her relationship with the staff was stormy:.

>> some cried foul, n editorial in the "the guardian" saying: . >> a few weeks ago she reportedly went to her bosses because she found out she was making less money than her male predecessor. this was a big problem for her, obviously. you know, there's questions about how it was resolved, and the "the times" said it never was a big issue like reported. when you have someone who had all these issues about sexism towards her raised, it's something that people think about in terms of what might have led to the demise. >> some said the firing wouldn't sit well with female reporters to whom she was seen as a roll

model. she gave an interview to john seigenthaler. >> women in journalism, have you broken the glass ceiling? >> no, i'm reluctant to say categorically anything like that. i would like to see the progress that we have made on the gender line apply equally to ethnicity, race, sexuality and you name it. >> an ironic statement. replacing her will be an african american. the speed of the transition has been unsettling. minutes after the news broke a "the times" reporter had a picture of a meeting making page one news. >> there are new revelations in the n.s.a. surveillance story, more may be on the way.

glen greenwald led the way in reporting on edward snowden's n.s.a. leaks. he published a book about the investigation "no place to hide", including documents from the n.s.a. he joined me to talk about his work and answered questions about our viewers, and the significance of edward snowden accepting asylum in russia. >> it was living in a spy film. we knew a couple of things that this was certainly the biggest leak in national security history, that if the u.s. government found out what it was that he was doing, that they would take extreme measures to put a stop to it one way or the other. we didn't know much else. this is from gary in honolulu. he said in light of the annexation of crimea, pro-russian thugs, constraints on the media et cetera.

>> people seek asylum in the united states and no one asked the people "how do you feel about seeking asylum from a country that destroyed a country of 26 million or erected a torture regime, or prisoned people without charges. the point of asylum is not to declare which country you love, but seek application from persecution." >> we will have more from the interview. secrets and spying coming up. 11:30 eastern and 8:30. a video has been leaked al jazeera arabic abdullah al-shami. it was leaked. he has been on a hunger strike for 114 days. two days ago it leaked past the authorities, asked him to transfer to a hospital.

the 26-year-old may be close to dying. he's been in custody without being charged since august of last year. abdullah al-shami says he asked for independent doctors. >> i have reached 106 days of the hunger strike, to hold the egypt shop government and judiciary - it's my responsibility i, if anything happens to me... ". >> three others have been held in egypt for 130 days, peter greste, mohamed fadel fahmy and baher mohamed. they are accused of conspiring with the outlawed muslim brotherhood. al jazeera rejects all the charges and demands their immediate release. there are tough laws in the united states banning children from buying tobacco product, and what the country does not have are regulations preventing them working in tobacco field,

exposing kids to nicotine poisoning. we have more from our correspondent, from the hart of the tobacco industry. >> reporter: each morning in the summer this 15-year-old travels to tobacco field. the money hps to pay for her -- helps to pay for her family's basic living expenses. human rights watch interviewed 140 children. >> your head hurts, you get a fever. it's the chemicals getting to you. >> the chemicals are pesticides sprayed on the plants. in the early morning the nicotine-laced due seeping from the plants is difficult to avoid, even if they try to protect themselves. >> when i sweat, we wear trash

bags. that attracts the heat, burning inside the trash bags. >> the doctor has been studying the effects of expormg on labourers. the exposhure to pesticide causes damage. child labour laws in the u.s. farming sector are lax, there are few protections. youth can crop tobacco or purchase top abbingo. have you to be 18 to buy products. you can be as yawning as 10 working. we reached out to three to find out why more is not done to protect child labourers, all our requests were declined. as a result of human rights wat watch. the group is calling for reforms. the group is calling for tobacco

groups to protect kids. that means no kids under the age of 18. now she says that is not the case, hazards include working in 43 heat. >> it hps my parents. >> work pays the bills, but the cost may be to her health. >> coming up, rebuilding america from highways to bridges. a look at the nation said infrastructure. remembering 9/11. memorial museum the doors open to families and the

responders. snoomp it's something you know. things that tie this country together - roads, bridges, ports - they are falling apart. it's a crisis. infrastructure is in such a state of disrepair that the cost to fix is is staggering. president obama visited a bridge policemening more than a billion to fund its replacement. >> we are aiming to put every

infrastructure on a dashboard. make sure things are coming in on time, on budget. >> another bridge in new york, one of the famous, is at risk. kath turner reports. >> reporter: the brooklyn bridge is not just iconic. it carries 120,000 vehicles and thousands of pedestrians between brooklyn and manhattan. it was never designed for heavy traffic when built in 1883. it was classify the as one of the worst conditions. >> we go out, take a look at every nut and bolt. people go up to the top of the bridge. people go underwater to make sure the peers are in good shape. >> this is what can happen.

in 2007, 13 died and 145 enjurd when a bridge collapsed sending 100 mars into the mississippi -- cars into the mississippi river. 8,000 bridges in the u.s. are defirment, they are in for condition and a risk of collapse if a comment fails. >> the mapp manhattan bridge is fine. >> barry believes when individual states decide how to spend money, public safety is rarely the priority. >> politicians do not think of fixing the underside of a bridge or a road that is in trouble as a kind of political photo op or something that they get mileage on campaign contributors. >> the average bridge in the u.s. is 43 years owl. the design life is 50. the prognosis is not good.

>> there's a slug of bridges that are looking okay that in the next 10, 20, 30 years will need repair. if we don't get going on the backlog, we could see a tidal wave in the future. officials don't appear to be overly prepared. >> there's no shortage. what is lacking is the political will. until that changes, people will continue to risk their lives every time they cross a bridge, probably without knowing it. >> to highways, a concern. the solution may not be more roads, but better ones. science and technology correspondent jacob ward explains. >> reporter: repairing infrastructure, bridges, tunnels roads is a problem. people paid to think about it will tell you that traffic requires not new roads but new ways to organise the cars on

them. the amount of traffic increased, particularly in locations like california. however, building additional freeway structure is expensive. in order to increase a lane, the amount of actual real estate that you have to buy off the neighbourhood is huge. >> instead of new leaps we may need city streets and freeways to communicate. >> the systems controlling the green lights are under the control of local cities. highways are under control of state authorities, and there's no automated system to connect the two. >> the problem is one of systems not talking. during rush our there's no system allowing the artery streets feeding on to the highway to foe there's too much going on. people are left to fight through the chaos on their open, no lights, no signals or help. >> highways are paid for by

taxes on motor fuel. as cars are more fuel efficient, the amount of money is shrinking. that means there's additional pressure to found the cheapest moons of making roads -- means of making roads efficient. >> control systems - you may have to modernize the traffic lights so they can communicate and reprogramme. that costs nothing compared to adding lanes to freeways. it's expected to be an emotional day the the dedication of the national 9/11's memorial museum. thousands of artefacts are on display, some sparking controversy. john terrett is live. >> good evening. welcome to ground zero. this is new york city. they have been rowing sense the get go - everything from the price of administration to the

location of human remains in a vault, to a video ta muslims say payments them all as terrorists. many said this museum would never open. tomorrow it will, in front of the president. >> seven storeys below ground zero, it's as if september 11th happened, the impact, the towers, the rescuers, shock, pain and utter disbelief. there was never much doubt a memorial museum would be built. any notion that it would be easy was misguided. for 13 years, three longer than planned arguments slowed down the process. many 9/11 families are angry that thousands of unidentified body parts are stored this far underground in an area that flooded during superstorm sandy. >> would we ever have picked a basement that could be flooded? >> former deputy fire cap tape

who lost his firefighter son jimmy spent months clearing the site of rubble and body parts. >> it will be a powerful museum, they don't need productions of putting human remains in a museum. >> the museum director says housing the remains fulfilled a promise to a coalition of family members in 2003. another concern is a 6 minute video. an interfaith clergy advisory finding most of the exhibits in the museum to be inspirational, but said they had a problem with the films. >> didn't deal with the difference in a subtle and different way of islam and al-qaeda. >> the muslim experience of 9/11 is well documented throughout the museum, beyond the al qaeda exhibit. >> we over and over again make it clear it's not mainstream

islam. this is a rad iingalized -- addicalized group of people treated as criminals in this museum. >> 24 per ticket. six figure salaries and trinkets on sale are criticisms the management faces. it's unlikely critics will be silenced. for now at least the u.s. has a new focus for mourning those lost on inch. >> reporter: after the president oversees the formal opening, there'll be a dedication period when the families can come on their own to view the powerful exhibit. the meself eem will open to members of the public on may 21st. >> thank you. >> next - our special report "secrets in spying", an indepth look at how the n.s.a. spying programme changed over the past

i don't remember and how much your privacy remains at rick. >> among the biggest stories... >> journalist glenn greenwald and his interview with edward snowden, and the unknown secrets.

. >> surveillance in the naum of security. a -- name of security. a government that can track your phone calls, emails, every move you make online. the year-long national debate. privacy or application. >> we will not be able to keep our people safe. >> my conversation with glenn greenwald. >> nobody has been injured or harmed as a result of our recording. >> defending his reporting on the n.s.a. leaks, a national hero to some, a traitor to others. our special report - secrets and spying. i'm john seigenthaler in new york. glenn greenwald is at the center of a controversy over the

american spying programme. he is the journalist revealing the secrets that edward snowden took with him. glenn greenwald is revealing new information and secrets about edward snowden. richelle carey is here with more. >> edward snowden contacted glenn greenwald on september 1st, 2012. they took a chance and trusted each other. the year that followed changed their lives and the world's way of viewing the united states. >> it hasn't been a year since the young contractor boarded a flight to hawaii, with four laptops and some big secrets. he met two journalists, edward snowden, from a hotel. "the guardian" published an exclusive on edward snowden's links. glenn greenwald's journey showed verizon was forced to hand over

phone records. it was the first of torrent revelations and rehabilitations. the second revealed a programme called prism. showing the agencies had access to google facebook and others. >> president obama said: >> edward snowden went public: >> the u.s. soon filed espionage charms against edward snowden and tried to have him extradited from hong kong. within a few days edward snowden was in moscow. the pace of the leaks slowed. they didn't stop thanks to the collaboration between snowed where are and glenn greenwald. a disastrous story was a report published by the "new york times", "the guardian" - that the u.s. and british intelligence spied on germany, united nations, israel, france

and other allies. glenn greenwald's new book includes more details about how the n.s.a. cop rates with allies and orptions. >> glenn greenwald niments and -- "new york times" and "the guardian" received a pulitzer prize for publishing stories on this matter. i spoke to grown , he said sony -- glenn greenwald, he said sony pictures brought the movie rights to his book. >> it was like living in a spy film. we knew a couple of things, that this was certainly the biggest lack in national security history. if the u.s. government found out what he was doing, they would take measure to put a stop to it. they didn't know much else,

whether the government new anything or what they knew, anything that was happening. everything they did was shrouded in levels of secrecy. edward snowden - the intelligence community - it was well havesed in what needed to be done. >> you were surprised by what he looked like. >> i was shocked. i knew he had access to enormous amounts of trial. i knew that he was prepared to spend the rest of his life in prison, i assumed he was in his '60s or 70s. >> did it gi you pause that you might write articles that could in essence send him to prison? >> it made me need to know that he was making is close with a full upping of what the consequences -- understanding of what the consequences would be, and the decision making was ground in rationality and agency

and autonomy, and i got that assurance. >> you did. how did you do that? >> i sat him down and questioned him. in the hotel room on the first day. i insisted upon understanding the thoughts behind his thoughts, the moral framework. it ultimately lead to the decision and it was coherent and co-get. >> do you think he recognised all the thinks that he might go through. >> there's a video clip. the documentarian with whom i worked filmed, in which he asked what are the likely consequences for you. he said "i think i'll be called a traitor by the united states government, charged with felonies under the espionage act. people will dig into all aspect of my life and freedom and my life will never be the same."

>> how is he handling that? >> remarkably well. when we were in hong kong his assumption was that he'd pend the rest of highs life or decades in a cage. >> you thought that happened. >> to see him participate freely is incredibly fulfilling, in the debate. he's forced to be in a county he didn't choose. at the same time, while the people i know in my life, the ones at pass and fulfilled and the happiest is edward snowden. he gets to put his head op his pillow, knowing he took actions. >> you talked to him often. >> regularly, yes. >> on a phone or secure line. >> we use secure internet chat technologies. >> what is his life like? >> he spend a lot of time following the debate around the

world, and the reform movements that take place. he's asked to speak all the time. he speaks to journalists and has been a person of the internet, spending time indoors and online. he continues to do that. >> what is it like to be called a traitor and a hero by different folks? >> i think if you do journalism and the kind of journalism you want to do is you'll probably i'll yeppate people. >> you are critical of mainstream journalism, what is the biggest beef? >> the idea of why there's a free pass, journalists are supposed to be an adversarial force. for several decades, with some exceptions the american media has become and rendered impot

ept to the idea of what journalism should be. >> you believe in a now form of adverse airian journalism - does it include your opinions, and like the n.s.a., there are a lot of people - what do you think the n.s.a. should do. should they exist? >> i don't know of anybody that believes all forms of civil apps should be abolished or are legitimate. >> you don't. >> i don't know anyone who does, including myself. everyone acknowledges some limiting oversight driver surveillance is justified. i made my opinions clear. which isn't a new form. journal. >>. if you look at the new form, it's been this kind of crusading adversarial journalism where the journalists don't pretend they are without opinions. they age the opinions they have and tell the readers "you can

rel on the facts i'm reporting and that is what determines the credibility of a journalist. >> you made a point about the fact that mainstream organizations like the "new york times", "the washington post" go to the u.s. government before printing things, and you don't like that. >> it's not that i'm opposed to the idea of advising the u.s. government. >> you could have fooled me in the book. >> i dislike the suppression of information that the public ought to know because it's newsworthy, as it happened before. >> can you describe the excitement and the fore that you felt whp you had this information in your hand, and you knew that that would go public. what is that like for a journalist. it's overwhelming. on the one hand there was a huge amount of excitement. >> the difficulty has been you don't have the instruments to make the public aware of what is

going on. there were all the instruments in the world. at the same time i knew that it was app enormous responsibility to the source, the public, my colleagues at the guard yap to make the decisions about how the information ought to be reported. >> more of my conversation with green coming up. washington has not been the same since the publication of the first document. we have more from the public's rehabilitation. >> president obama and congress spent the last year to reassure the public they were not being spied on. the administration made trips to capitol hill briefing members of congress publicly and privately. there has been speeches and reports from the justice department. it's clear that the administration and the president have been on the defensive and remain so over the rev lagss

that broke a year ago. it began when the director of the national intelligence was caught lies about the programme in response to a question from the senator. after the scandal broke, a vote on an unrelated piece of legislation in july of 2013 in the house of representatives. conservatives, including tea party conservativities, teaming up with others, voting to overturn or stop the bulk meta data collection programme. it was turned back. in december, a blow from the federal court saying that the programme violated the fourth amendment prohibition against illegal search and seedsure. the president made the january speech. the proposal to stop data collection by the government, sending it to the companies, shorten the time by

which records could be akieved. make them go to the court if they wanted to, if they wanted the record. now, congress has been moving a bill, it's moving quickly. it could come to a vote in the house of representatives, to codify much of what the president proposed. a lot of that is watered down. civil libertarians see back doorways, holes pumped in the leggs to allow the -- legislation to allow the intelligence community to gateder the metadata. a year into the controversy one thing is clear. congress struggling to find an april to satisfy the public the issue is far from resolved. >> edward snowden remains in russia. his tempry asylum runs out in june. a lawyer said probably it will be renewed and the lawyer says:.

>> glenn greenwald cold me edward snowden may spend the rest of his life in russia. he appeared on television with a question for vladimir putin. >> reporter: i'd like to ask you a about the mass surveillance of online communication and the bulk collection of private records by intelligence and law enforce services. >> putin denied using n.s.a.-style equipment. german lawyers want him to testify about american surveillance of angela merkel's cell phone. next - the fall out. how edward snowden's exposure of government secrets affected the fight against al qaeda. plus... >> everywhere acknowledges that some limited, targeted discriminating oversight surveillance is justified. >> more of my conversation with green as our suspiciously

report - secrets and spying conditions.

the impact of edward snowden's leaks depend on who

you talk to. it changed the way the n.s.a. operates and how terrorists do business, possibly. more from randall pinkston. >> reporter: this is about a trend in the relationship of the government. it was a shocking revelation. the national security agency collected data, but not the con tent of virtually every phone call. it's known as metadata. details like the phone number called and the time and location of the call made. top intelligence officials and members of congress denounced edward snowden's actions, saying he made the snags vulnerable to attack -- nation vulnerable to attack. >>... the in sights gained are making our job harder last week recollects a

boston base collection firm reported that al qaeda is stepping up its base of producing encryption soft yair. in the six years before edward snowden's leaks, al qaeda released two encryption tools, within six months after the revelations there were three enciption packages. the n.s.a. turned the internet into a giant platform. >> harvard's bruce, helped glenn greenwald reduce the documents. he says the new enciption may assist the n.s.a. >> this is probably great news for the n.s.a. now the al qaeda operatives are using home-made stuff they can break. edward snowden's revelations are promptless actions first to -- prompting actions. first to reassure that the metadata programme is legal. >> no one is lipping to your --

listening to your telephone calls. that's not what the programme is about. president obama appointed a review panel which proposed 46 recommendations. among them pding the n.s.a. -- ending the n.s.a.'s role about the keeper of information. those concerned about privacy needs to look behind the n.s.a. >> the average citizen needs to know they are behind surveillance. as to what people can do, pretty much foog. >> harvard's bruce says edward snowden launched a debate on the balance between privacy and the government's need to gather intelligence. during our conversation in washington i asked glenn greenwald if the n.s.a. lacks had endangered the united

states. we discussed why edward snowden had a reporter reveal the documents instead of putting them all online. >> he came to me demanding that we enter an agreement about how it would be reported. he could have uploaded them to the internet. his believe, one that i share is that the impact is higher because we took the time to report the stories one by one, explained to the public what the meaning was, and let the public address the story. we have a number of suggestions, from linda. how many ates had to be removed because their cover-blown and they were in danger. none that the u.s. government identified. no one as injured. the u.s. government makes these

claims. every time there's disclosures, it turns out to be false, and without evidence, and that is the case here. >> is there information that could but information in danger. >> anything is possible. we made the decision to with hold the information. >> because it was too assistancive. >> it wasn't news worthy and had the potential to create harm. it was a process we engaged in and continued in the future. >> how many more documents? >> there's many more stories to go. i can't quantify them for you. they are among the biggest stories. there were a lot of new stories and documents. there are many left. >> you have one big story, apparently that is coming at the end and you and edward snowden discussed it and are excited about it. >> it's a story - we haven't saved it for the pd. it's com -- end.

it's complicated, it's difficult to report and there's legal sensitivities, but it will shape how the story is remembered, because it answers questions about how surveillance is conducted. >> you think you are out of legal trouble in the united states. >> there's a risk for some stories that the n.s.a. is angry about. by and large the cost is too high for them to be willing to incur. >> talking about your personal opinions, one of them that is making news are your comments about helicopter , the former secretary of state. why did you where does this come from? >> the context for the interview is that a journalist from gq came down to rio de janeiro and followed me warned and we spent a lot of time together. when it happiness you talk openly and candidly. i don't think we have hidden the

fact that i have strong opinions. i think hillary clinton's candidacy is representative of many of worse attribute, dine aftic succession, politicians rewarded for being calculating. she supported the war in rick, the post 9/11 abuses of the u.s. government. and i don't think she's a candidate who is words getting excited about. quite the opposite. >> is there anyone you are getting excited about. what should the next president of the united states be thinking about when it comes to the n.s.a. and the abuses you talk about. clearly, if you don't believe that the system is ipp herrently abusive. there are enormous costs to having ongoing surveillance. there are people around the world who refuse to. they are not confident that their privacy is protected. there's a wide array of

diplomatic harm. there's a perinspection that the government can't be trusted. gepp un reform is something leaders would want to embark on. >> there's a suction that everyone is collecting information, electric, cable companies - not just the n.s.a., but the n.s.a. through some of those countries. >> there's a huge fundamental difference between having the single company collect the engines, google can collect the google services and it's divided and fragmented in the hands of these companies. versus them collecting in a systemized way. there's a difference that the government can put you into prison and take your property. it limits what the government

can do because we look to government and state powers as being threatening. >> there are a lot of kids that you probably walked through. do you think the young people understand what you are saying. do you think they have got the message? >> completely. what fascinated me, unlike other significant controversies, their rehabilitation doesn't break down on partisan lines. democrats and republicans dislike or support the reporting i have been doing. the most reliable metric for how people react is age. younger people understand the central itty of the internet. peoplean inspired by what he did and the journalism resulting. >> john shinned ler joins us. john worked as an analyst at the

n.s.a. for eight years. welcome. >> great to be here. give me a rehabilitation from what you heard of glenn greenwald:. >> glen is a smart die. we heard a lot of statements raping from dis-ipp genous to untrue. >> give me a few. >> i have a lot. the statement that no one has been harmed by the massive unprecedented lacks. that's untrue. you had an segment on how al qaeda separatists are making good use of the lacks. that has consequences. people in the intelligence community who had lives impacted, including compromise of personal information, i know some of them. when glen says the u.s. government hasn't talked about it, of course, it's classified. i understand glen wants to be

the hero of the story much perhaps there is some good coming out of this. >> what good do you think could come out of it? >> if we engaged in global debate about what deg of internet spying, if you will, we want. i aspect that. it has to be a global debate with dozens of countries that engage in this. that debate is worth having. the debate glen gives us is based on the united states and allies. some who have been behaved badly. look at australia and indonesia. it's not just the united states and great britain. >> somehow edward snowden be in prison. >> of course, if he comes back to united states. but he's not going to. glenn told us that edward is a highly skilled operative. he is nothing of the sort. he's an it employee, a contractor who is internet

savvy, but has no upping of the intelligence business. it's clear from the way the leaks came out. no one in the inner circle understands these mountains of leaked pur line power plaint presentations. there's a mass amount of context missing that i'm not sure they under. >> why would edward snowden, at the low level have access to this sort of information? well, he was an it person. the weakst link in any organization, including a secretive one. they have access to a great deal of information stored op databases and systems. if one goes rogue terrible things would happen. i used to work in counterintelligence. many of us were concerned about an id person going wrong and having devastating consequences.

>> glenn greenwald has been given journalist awards, including the pulitzer prize. do you think there's value in the stories he's written. >> i see more safely agrandizement than value. glenn is outstanding at self-promotion. walter durante, the lead correspondent who denied stalin's terrible crimes pon pulitzer prize's as well. >> john sh-ipped ler, good to see you. >> there's international uproar over the n.s.a. lacks. a freeze frame comes from berlin, they are upset with the n.s.a. spy programme. they are wanting the german government to investigate the

n.s.a. allegations. "borderland" is

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