a hale stone turned a city white, blanketing it with ice. the main airports were closed. some cars were strappeded. the storm ended a dry spell causing historically low water levels. more news on the website aljazeera.com. >> the united states has taken an usual step in denouncing cyber crime. the chinese under indictment. vipecyber theft is the inside s. >> hello, i'm ray suarez. it only seems logical if you

want to develop a wing for a military plane or a switch that will route millions of phone calls or a process to process metals. it's cheap for steal it than develop it. chinese officials were rifling through american computer, government files and private business. the attacks were even narrowed down to one specific building in shanghai. the u.s. has complained, cajoled, warned, now it's taking specific action. >> this is a case alleging economic espionage. the range of trade secrets and sensitive information stolen in this case is significant and demands an aggressive response. >> for the first time ever the justice department is bringing cyber hacking charges against another country. five members of the chinese

military are alleged to have stolen trade secrets from six american companies, attacking with just a desk and a computer. >> the indictment ledges that these officers maintained unauthorized access to steal information that would be useful to their competitors in china including state owned enterprises . attorney general eric holder said this would give them an u unfair advantage and insight to companies. including westinghouse electric, alcoa, united steal workers union and solar world. the economic toll on espionage is massive according to the department of justice.

>> are right about the time that solar world, these hackers were stealing costs, price and strategy information from solar world's glutes within the indictment are 31 counts against all the chinese defendants. some of those charges including economic espionage, trade secret theft, and in the case of westinghouse, the defendant's allegedly stole information about technology transfers, confident design specifications and e-mails from senior staff. this is the new normal. this is what you're going to see on a recurring basis. not just every six months. not just every year. if you're going attack americans whether for criminal or national security purposes we're going to hold you accountable no matter what country you live in. >> federal authorities were able

to trace the hackers to this non-descript building in shanghai. starting in 2006 members of china's liberation army or pla unit 61 p 18 were given liberation to hack into companies computers. why is this indictment coming now? this is not the first time china has been accused of using cyberattacks against targets in the u.s. and once again the chinese government is denying it. chinese government, the chinese military, and their relevant personnel have never engaged nor participated in cyber theft or trade secrets. the u.s. accusation against chinese personnel are personally ungrounded and absurd. china probably saw the charge coming.

for years now the obama administration has taken a hard line against the theft of intellectual party and state secrets across the cyber domain. >> we know foreign countries and companies swipe our corporate secrets. now our enemies are also seeking the ability to sabotage our power grid, financial institutions, control systems. we cannot look back years from now and wonder request we did nothing in the face of real threats to our security and our economy. >> diplomatly these latest charges are likely to increase tensions with china. china has pulled out of a multi national working group formed last year to combat the problem. the chinese have demonstrated again and again the willingness to gain an hedge over international partners as the economy surges and it's military might grows. >> mr. holder, is it like these defendant was ever stand trial

in an u.s. court room, if not what is the real goal here? >> our intention is for due process in an american court of law. that is the intention of what we've done today. it's called accountable people who have engaged in activities that violate american criminal law. >> the department of justice is expected to bring more charges against the chinese government. still the likely a lot the chinese military members would stand in an u.s. courtroom is thin. >> cyber espionage and modern superpower, yes, the u.s. has indicted chinese officials, but does the u.s. do the same thing to other countries? is there evidence of what's been stolen in products produced in china on sale for the international market, and does

attorney general eric holder expect to see the chinese men in an american courtroom? here to answer those questions, senior management scientist at rand corporation. from boston, an identity theft expert with hot spot shield, and from the director of the canada-china director forum. you just heard high ranking justice official calling this ththe new normal. isn't this the old normal, too? >> this has been going on since the cold war, but with regards to cyber espionage, we're looking at 20-something years or so, and this is a battle that's going on between the good guys and bad guys 24/7, 365.

the government is taking an enormous amount of hits on a daily basis. >> martin, what has changed that? is it the tools? the am addition? >> the new number, i think what's different is the indictment here. i can't recall any other time where it was considered normal behavior for one government to indict the military others of another government for basically violating criminal law. >> so we heard eric holder say he wants to give them due process, but it's likely that china is not going to hand these men over but does it put a brick on their movements? does it make their life more complicated? >> well, it may affect their vacation plans because there are

a number of countries around the world who will extra indict foreign nationals . vladimir putin warned russian citizen who is may be indicted in the united states including cyber crimes where they go on vacation. china said they have never done such a thing. is that a credible response? >> was it's a credible response. they'll deny it. but american is doing the same on a much massive scale on the chinese. the americans made it clear the

pure concern about spy something national security not commercial. now the new normal is rather the new means of the old normal those countries are trying to get the upper hand. one is existing superpower of technology. the other is an emerging one that is trying to challenge that. this is a typical example of how this plays out in the coming years and decades. >> i'm not an expert on this, but it seems from a total amateur standpoint that of the american military to watch the chinese military and chinese hire chinese military men to watch americans. >> we need to prove that american spying on a large scale of chinese leadership down to

the banks to technical corporations are purely for national security reasons, not for others. at the same time, making sure that it's for commercial purposes. these passed information to the chinese commercial companies for a purpose of competing with the united states. that's very typical at the moment. we can even assume they have done so. americans spied on large technical corporation in a much sophisticated manner while corporating with the chinese military there is nothing out there of spying. with china now reverse the case to charge the united states with the hard language set quoted in the opening statement there in

your program against americans. citing national security for such a purpose. >> and a very provocative sir, and later in the program we'll take on the very different systems of these two countries and what it seems for a government entity to spy when so much of the commercial power of the country is part of the government. versus in the united states when there is a little more day late, but is there really. stay with us. this is inside story. >> on techknow... >> i'm at the national wind institute, where they can create tornados... >> a greater understanding... >> we know how to design for the wind speeds, now we design for... >> avoiding future tragedies >> i want a shelter in every school. >> techknow every saturday, go where science, meets humanity. >> this is some of the best driving i've ever done, even though i can't see. >>techknow >> is there an enviromental

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>> al jazeera america presents the system with joe berlinger >> mandatory minimums are routinely used to coerce plea bargains >> mandatory minimums >> the whole goal is to reduce gun crime, now we've got people saying "this isn't fair"... >> does the punishment always fit the crime? >> had the person that murdered our daughter got the mandatory minimum, he wouldn't have been out. >> the system with joe burlinger only on al jazeera america >> welcome back to inside story. i'm ray suarez. we're looking at the announcement of chinese officials for espionage. spores persons responded by citing u.s. cyber spying against the u.s. government, university and companies saying, quote:

>> robert, are the tools at the disposal of either side, both sides different, better, more thorough, more powerful than they were even a few years ago? >> right now you've heard the team over and over again describing hackers. the sophistication level today is never been seen before. the tools they have at their disposal are being built with unlimited funding both state sponsored. the groups are organized. you have the best techologists in the world. when you look at viruses that

have been created over the past decade it's amazing what they're capable of. you know in the end this is all science. the technologies that are creating the virus es that give direct access are also working with teams of social engineers. and those social engineers have a multitude of ways to get inside the heads of the people that they're sending various communications to. once they click links and shuts down anti-virus and allows free access into these systems. one of the companies high on the list of americans who take this issue seriously. they say it's raraw that have been using what they steal in the products that they sell on the worldwide market.

is that not the case? >> well actually we have clear information from edward snowden to find out if rawai have been in such activities, and threw the back door into all the other backbone sessions i would be curious to see if there is evidence so far not revealed. the fact is they have been on the alarm list for a long time. we have also been alarmed by rawai. they have not been making a move in north america.

i think one of the fallouts that we see and probing accusations will be the chinese speeding up of not using more american equipments and enhancing it's own equipment systems on its own. so that it would be counterproductive. in this case, that americans are doing this and using their own equipment in the coming years and decades. this was making me think of the arms race and using those days to think of as predictable but if someone makes a mistake the hell to pay is worse and worse. is this a kinds of arms race when we throw each other's best technology at each other? >> i think the analogy of the arms race does not work very well. each are building more and more nuclear weapons.

but the notion that there is a cyber weapon i think under aspect. you can only get into somebody's system if there is an error in the system. one of the reasons that agencies have such an interest is because they're hoping to find rawai, it awould allow our intelligence agencies penetrate systems through the routers and get into the networks themselves. it's just people building up more armment. i think it has to be on cyber defense. how do we make the networks we've built more impervious to espionage to anybody. >> doesn't this defeat the very idea that under lies industry.

you can put your laptop and your arm at the end of the day . that's extolled, lifted up and elevated to the highest and best use of everybody's time and everybody's technology. but it's that ease of communication, that ease of sending files and designs and drawings here and there that's undermining this whole system, isn't it? the fact that you can access these secure, private networks from the security of your own home. and your own laptop can be hacked then you become the path

of least resistence. you're targeting the employees of these corporations and of government agencies through social, they're finding out who they're connected to. they're engaging in advanced persistent threats where they're working 24/7/365, and those employ employe ees will affect your devices. it's as simple as that. >> if we accept the proposition from the beginning that both sides are doing it to each other, are there differences and are those differences important has the chinese military become an arm of chinese commerce in a way that doesn't necessarily match up on the americans side? >> well, i believe that our stories and reports in the west overexaggerate the capability of

the chinese state in fact, if anything the chinese feel insecurity about their national security just as americans feel vulnerable. i think it's particularly above the national security. less ironly. the chinese particularly in response to doj charge. they have overwhelming superiority. they feel threatened and victimized. i think the best approach is not to use this kind of lawsuit. rather the two countries have a cyber working group that was set up last year and

i think the best way for two countries to resume that working group to talk about these issues. i think those can commit better results than the lawsuits now we're seeing as posturing has been seen not only by the chinese, but probably by people around the world . >> until that corporation works what are we going to do in the meantime. we'll talk about whether this is the beginning of the end of open source software. this is "inside story." >> every saturday, al jazeera america brings you conversations you won't find anywhere else... >> your'e listening because you wanna see what happen... >> get your damn education... >> talk to al jazeera only on al jazeera america >> oh my...

>> and join the conversation online @ajamstream. >> welcome back to inside story. i'm ray suarez. attorney general eric holder called the indictment as a wake-up call. three of the company renowned american manufacturing giants. on this edition of the program

we're talking about the timing of the indictment, and the legal, diplomatic and business ramifications. still with us martin, a senior management scientist . from boston, an identity left expert, and from edmonton, the director of the canada china energy and environment forum. martin, does this and breaches like it heart bleed flaw and many other target invasion encourage everybody to armor up, encourage everybody to have fewer pathways in and out of their systems. does this lead to an end to the kind of trust that's made the web the useful tool that it is? >> i think the need to security, security in particular that there has been a tradeoff

between security on one hand and convenience and trust on the other hand. you can't do everything you want to do in cyberspace without taking certain amount of damages. if you run a new england power plant you spend a lot more time to security than if you run a grocery store, but everybody shoe spend some time on security. that's the world we live in. >> robert, should the united states be threatening retaliatory attacks , denial of service attacks. what's the best way forward if we can't talk our way out of this problem on both sides? it all boils down to security versus functionality. users of these screens and technology need to understand how to use them, how to not use them. what gets them in trouble, so on and so on. all of these organizations that

were breached need to take a certain amount of responsibility for their service being hawked, why that happened, how that happened so going in the future, more attention needs to be paid securing the data for which you're responsible for. >> does today's indictments add new urgency between the two states? do they have to work this out? >> i don't think they have much of a choice. we have to pay attention to security the technology and firm level. these attacks on mutually different countries were not stopped. the government agency level what do we do to protect ourselves.

the next steps i think are important to realize the chinese are feeling just as insecure as we are and the massive revelations that the u.s. spied on them and called for a working group to work this out. now this initiative is unfortunate. at some point the two countries will have to go back to the talking tables rather than the court to settle these issues. >> the question becomes will this latest development help gets all the sides back to the table. great to talk to you all. thanks for the conversation. thanks for being with us. now the program may be over, but the conversation continues. we want to hear what you think about the issues raised on this or any day's show. log on to our facebook page. send us your thoughts on twitter.

aj, inside story or you can reach me at ray suarez news. see me next time. i'm ray suarez. >> on "america tonight": shot in the arm. the case for childhood vaccinations gets a booster from a report outbreak of measles and the worries of the return much other childhood deceases. why a growing number of parents say no to shots. >> what would happen if we didn't get vaccination egg? >> i think we would be a lot healthier. >> you do? >> i do. >> also ahead secrets and spies.