america fighting back against alleged chinese cyber spying. how charges brought against members of china's army led to a diplomatic dust-up. also, an american that ventured into a civil war that killed thousands, displacing millions a look at special forces in the u.s. military. how would you describe earth to extraterritorialestrials - a new attempt to send a message. i'm antonio mora, welcome to "consider this".

here is more on what is ahead. novel. >> the u.s. government indicted five officers with the chinese military for economic espionage. >> we are exposing the faces and names behind the keyboard. >> china says it's a fiction. >> this is a wake-up call. >> vladimir putin ordered troops near the ukranian border to return to base. >> we have been clear with the call for the russian military to de-escalate. withdrawal. >> the dictator doesn't want to step down. >> sometimes the west has the assumption that dictatorship brings instability - it doesn't. >> when we look for marines, the thing that we are looking for is someone that is hungry. a certain individual is attracted to this job. for the first time ever the justice department monday filed

cyber espionage charges against a foreign government, china, accusing it of hacking into u.s. corporate computers. the alleged hackers - five officers in the p l.a. army, members of a secretive unit 61 98 working out of a 12 storey office building. known as the comment crew or shanghai group, they reportedly stole secret from firms including westinghouse, alcoa, u.s. steele. attorney general eric holder explains why they did it. >> they had unauthorised access to steal information from the entities that would be useful to entities in china, including state-owned. in some cases they stole trade secrets, beneficial to chinese companies at stolen.

>> in beijing the chinese foreign minister insisted the u.s. charges were based on fabricated facts, the chinese military, and relevant personal never engaged or participated in cyber theft of the trade secrets. joining us from new york is the director from the council on foreign relations programme for digital and cyber space policy, and his latest book is "advantage." good of you to join us. intelligence estimates claim that chinese espionage costs between $24 billion and $60 billion - what are they trying to get and why are they causing damage is this. >> we see a broad range of targets. the chinese are interested in a number of high tech areas, new material, information technology, areas critical for future competitiveness and

moving the economy up the value change. attacks have been broad, and is a widely repeated statement that there are two types of companies - those that have been attacked and those that don't know it. >> the impact - we don't know what it has had on u.s. competition and competitiveness and what the long-range effects will be. >> there has been a lot of talk in the p l.a. for a long time. there has been all sorts of novels written years ago about these guys. how long has it been going on, why did it take us so long to take action? >> the attacks on private companies really seem to have picked up pace around 2010, 2011 - that's when we had the first google attack. before that there were widespread attacks on u.s. defense networks and contractors. i think the reason it took so long to respond is atribunal use is hard.

we don't always know who is behind it and the u.s. government didn't want to show its cards, how capable it was in cyber space, and how it could identify specific attackers. industrial espionage has been around, is it something that everyone does, and this is a different way of doing? >> cyber is different because of the scope and scale of it. in the old days you had a guy leaving the factory floor or the r&d lab and he could take hundreds of documents, taking weeks, months or years. with cyber espionage you can download megabytes, ter abites and gigabytes of data in hours. the other issue is the u.s. says we spy on other countries but don't do industrial espionage. that's a hard sell. >> that's what the u.s. says. when it spies it does it for national security purpose, not profit.

where china is concerned. bonny glaiser said: >> that's something you addressed this, is about them becoming a bigger power. do you think they'll keep on stealing trade secrets if boosting the economy is - they see it as a concern. >> i think they will, unless we raise the cost. bonny is right. there is no distinction between economic and national military espionage in china. they are concerned about national and economic power. the only way that will change is if there's costs to the chinese. we have been unable to actually impose any costs. it's been fairly cost free. >> we have been complaining about cyber theft for years, it's been brought up with

chinese leaders, no result. and china says the charges could jeopardy. >> we'll have to see how the chinese retaliate. i think they are unlikely to go after u.s. companies or officials the the retaliation has been to cancel a u.s.-china working group. we'll have to see as they mo forward if they, in fact, try to take it out on u.s. companies or u.s. government officials. >> how strong is our moral ground, china gaming it's the victim of u.s. theft and cyber surveillance, and according to edward snowden, the n.s.a. built a back door into the chinese telekom that is considered a threat by the u.s. are we doing the same thing we accuse china of doing? >> china never missed an opportunity to call us hypocritical. this shows that the u.s. has

been active in macking into chinese networks. u.s. officials are making the distinction between the type of hacking that we do and the chinese do. since some of the targets the united states has zone after, not only the chinese telekom company, and the brazilian energy company, petrogas, host difference. >> no one expects the chinese will turn the people over, but is a big part of this that the rest of the world better watch out or we'll come after them. >> it's to send a message that we are taking this seriously, and we are trying to created an international norm, that this should be a trade issue that others shouldn't go after private companies. i don't think we'll be successful. the u.s. is not a particularly good messenger for that.

>> turning to the subject of your book to close, how can american innovation overcome the challenge from china, if they secrets. >> it's a problem. we have basically built an international trade system based on competitive advantage, and our advantage is innovation. china is low-cost manufacturing. the secret to the u.s. is to invent of the next big thing - ipod, electric cars, the internet of things or whatever else. the chinese hacking threatens that agreement, that international system that was built. and what it means is doing a better job of protecting ourselves. >> billions of dollars and millions of jobs. thank you for coming in. >> thank you. are we facing an inevitable war on terror.

a year ago president obama said the united states is entering a new phase on the core of terror. he recognised that there were worries about a diffused threat by al qaeda affiliates in yemen and africa. >> america is at a crossroads. this war, like all wars mustnd. >> from a national security agency to the c.i.a., the focus has not changed. if anything, the war on terror is expanding geographically. and in the military personal, fighting it. i'm joined by james kit field, a contributing editor to the national journal and wrote a cover story "the war after the war - inside america's shadow war on terror and why it will

neverened", amongst others. in an interview, when the predecessor took over from robert muller, he thought the threat from al qaeda had diminished but he underestimate it and how they had metastasized to include yemen, east africa and other areas, do you agree? >> i do agree. the narrative now is different. when you thought the combination of the top al qaeda leadership, the arab spring gave a counter narrative to osama bin laden's call for a jihad against the local authorities. that was the only way to achieve change in the middle east. it's a different landscape now. the affiliates proliferated. they sank roots in syria, yemen,

marley and are thinking about regional operations as we saw with the westgate mall attack in kenya, and a worry with foreign fighters flocking to the flag in syria, that when they come home, more than 1,000 in egypt. them. >> you wrote that president obama wants deeply to convince americans that the era of war is over and we don't face a war on terror. but you argue the simultaneous operations in libya, to grab a terrorist and the one in somalia against the al-shabab terrorists conducting the raid on the westgate mall, that they prove otherwise, that we are fighting a global war on terror. >> i think that's a look at the future. once we get out of afghanistan, the idea that we will be the war on terror, if you will, it's completely over. it's a little wishful thinking.

i understand why president obama wants to shift the psychological focus of the american people as we pull out of the land wars. he doesn't want a war degrading civil liberties, because you have a populous thinking the next terror attack is around the corner. the reality is the shadow war has lethal consequences against islamic extremists that want to do harm, by multitask forces, special operations, c.i.a. that war will continue and has no end in site. >> you talk about the shadow war and twilight warriors and the drones that are a part of it. the latest global terrorism report from the state department found decentralization and proliferation of al qaeda led to a growing number of terror attacks - 43% increase between 2012 and 2013.

you had access to some of our counterterrorism operateses and you talked to the man who is the head of the defense intelligence agency and he believes the danger is growing. >> that's correct. and that is part of that change in narrative that i mentioned at the top of the show. you know, for a while you could say that these al-qaeda afill quats are local wannabes flocking to the flag to gape international prestige. the fact is in the last year the affiliates started to sing roots, build a terrorist infrastructure, and at some point the groups that have sanctuary in the different countries, who are talking to each other, communicating to al qaeda core and the person of zar hery, that looks like afghanistan of the 1990s, that gave birth to al qaeda and the taliban. you are seeing a lot of concern, where a year ago there was the idea that al qaeda, the core, is

sort of significantly degraded and we don't have to wore i so much about al qaeda. that's not what you are hearing now. you hear the affiliates, as the fbi director said, metastasized the cancer, and it's spreading. >> they are sinking roots, holding more territory than before, and your biggest concern is syria. you are talking about afghanistan in the '80s, and '90s - what is going on there with al qaeda affiliates is what is similar to what gave rise to osama bin laden in al qaeda. >> i think that's right. you have a sectarian conflict with a charge component of islamic extremists flying under the flag. you have a conflict and they gravitate towards conflict. you have no governance where they established sanctuary. they crossed over into iraq and took fallujah and western iraq. they are starting to hold

territory, building infrastructure, have training bases, attracting 10,000 foreign fighters to their flag. 1500 estimated from europe to the united states. they have western passports. 1990s. >> it's a big concern. >> you think the future is special operations forces fighting all over the world drones. >> it's not just special operations forces. it's the tip of the spear. this is a multi operational unit. within 24 hours of the westgate mall attack, doing for instancics of that scene, trying to identify the attackers, that goes into the national counterterrorism center, where it's put into an intelligence pile that says "we know who the guys are. the tip of that chain of events

is either c.i.a. or joint special operation forces - snatch and cap spur operations. >> it's thought approach okaying. good to have you with us. thank you. >> coming up, we'll look at the newest of the special forces. the marines special operations command and what the mission is. >> as the crisis in ukraine reaches fever pitch, russia is pulling back troops. n.a.t.o. denies reports. our social producer is tracking the top stories. >> historic floods in the balkans are dredging up a dangerous problem from 20 years ago, let us know what you >> al jazeera america presents the system with joe berlinger >> mandatory minimums are routinely used to coerce plea bargains >> mandatory minimums >> the whole goal is to reduce

gun crime, now we've got people saying "this isn't fair"... >> does the punishment always fit the crime? >> had the person that murdered our daughter got the mandatory minimum, he wouldn't have been out. >> the system with joe burlinger only on al jazeera america

the 40,000 or so russian troops on ukraine's eastern border got their marching orders on monday "go back to your bases." at least that's what vladimir putin reportedly told them to do, less than a week before ukraine holds a crucial presidential election. while some units were on the move, the white house denied a real paul back was on the way. >> it's fair to say, we would know and say if the russian military pulled back. we have not seen any indication that that is the case. >> pro-russian separatists said there would be no election in the self-styled donetsk republic. for more on the tense situation

i'm joined from washington dc by ambassador william taylor, ambassador from 2006 to 2009, and is the vice president for the middle east and africa for the u.s. institute of peace. ambassador taylor, good to see you. you will be travelling to ukraine to serve as an election observer and will be part of a team for international affairs. where are you going. way do you expect? >> i don't know what city i will be deployed to. i expect to see an enthusiastic group of ukrainians wherever i'm posted, voting for the next president of ukraine. the poles indicate that across ukraine there are great enthuse yaxes for going to the elections, and voting and picking the next president. i'm looking forward to observing how free and fair these are. >> election officials were forced to shut the last office by pro-russian separatists.

the u.n.'s assistant secretary general yvonne simonovich had this to say. >> we do have information on a number of presidents or vice presidents of electoral commissions conducted or treated with implications for a number of other members. there is intimidation. >> abductions and intimidation. should the election be held if that continues? >> the elections should certainly be held. there's a small number of places where the separatists have some control and can intimidate people trying to put on good elections - a small number of places. the vast majority of places where people will vote in ukraine next sunday are free and fair and secure and ready for the voting to take place. i would imagine that less than -

less than 100 or 200 at most out of 33,000 precincts that people will vote in will be affected. >> you think it will be that little. over 14% of ukraine voters live in donetsk and lugansk, and the regions where the separatists are most active. there are millions of voters in those two regions. if they can't vote, how does that affect the election. >> no, that's is the point of the most of those - most of the 14% of the population that lives in those regions, most will vote, and not have difficulty. there are a small number of separatists in a small number of cities, including the central districts of lugansk, and donetsk, who will not be able to vote. those precincts will not be able to. they are small. the rest of that region, donetsk will be able to vote. >> there's a lot of optimism over the roundtable talks involving most of the parties in

the second round of those talks to restructure ukraine's government in time for sunday's election, took place over the weekend. the government wants to give local government authority over government. the pro-russian separatists wants regional authority, and the talks adjourned without deciding anything, even a place and time to continue. does that bode poorly for the future of those negotiations? >> these are serious negotiations, and those self-styled separatists and self-appointed officials of the people's run lick of donetsk are not represented there. they are not part of those negotiations. this is a discussion about the constitution of ukraine. it's among people who represent the people in the west and east and northern southern parts of ukraine. those conversations need to fake place and need to be serious. they are not going to solve things in the first two

meetings, it's a process that has begun and it will devolve power in the regions and that may solve many problems. >> the leader whose profile is soaring at the moment is a billionaire, petro porashenko, he's leading, he's opposed to ukraine joining n.a.t.o. the campaign platform he has is built on security. he is nicknamed the chocolate king, but was a minister in the government of viktor yanukovych. he is believed to be pro-russian. known as a pragmatist is vladimir putin's recent more conciliatory tone because of petro porashenko, that he's more comfortable and what he may mean for the future? >> that's a good question. no one that i have talked to, and certainly not i, can understand what is going on in

mr vladimir putin's head. i don't know what is making him move back and say he's moving his troops back, and say that he things that his elections on sunday are a step in the right direction. what is drew is that mr petro porashenko represents a moderate middle. as you say, he's served on both sides of recent administrations. he is widely regarded as a good economist, as a good manager. there's no allegations that i have heard of corruption in his past. i think mr putin will have a good inter-locketture there when they discussion. >> it's the third time he said he pulled back troops. let's hope this time is the charm, and the troops move back, elections move forward and i wish you well. >> as always, good to have you with us. >> thank you, good to be here. turning to the war and major

humanitarian crisis in south sudan. a fragile peace accord is crumbling amid genocide and confirmation of two deaths from a dangerous cholera outbreak. the president says the country faces a tipping point because of the fighting and famine that could leave as many as 7 million hungry by august. tens of thousands are killed and 1.3 million displaced. it occurred when former vice president riek machar was accused of conducting a coup. he narrowly escaped and a war exploded. we speak to a man that tracked down riek machar, and rode with the white army. >> democracy - i don't buy it. sometimes the west supports dictatorship with the assumption that dictatorship brings

stability - it doesn't. >> joining us is robert young pelton, returning on assignment with "vice", which released a project "saving south sudan, an explanation of the horrors of the civil war", including a 3-part documentary. you went to south sudan before this recent peace accord was struck in early may. the accord before that went nowhere. accusations are flying about who is the bad guy. dr riek machar told you he was at the center of corruption. you had to make hushing ulian -- hushing ulian efforts to spend time with riek machar. there? >> this is cyclical. in 1991 riek machar split away from john glang - essentially the main leader - pluning the

company in 10 years of war fair. a lot of south sudan see an echo of 1991. you see that in the pronouncements. you see two people fighting over a rice bowl. there's no rice in the bowl. famine. >> no rice in the bowl, but they? >> sudan has about 38 billion barrels of oil which it can't seem to get out of the ground fast enough. there's an issue of corruption which i bring up in my interviews, in which he points out that the grain reserves were stolen by - he accuses elements of salva kiir's inner circle. >> the fighting has been horrendous, all sorts of human rights abuses. the latest truce allowing aid in, but the fighting is continuing. if it comes, you are reporting that there's not enough aid

coming in because the world is not paying attention. >> yes. we have to be crystal clear about something. we are not on the verge of anything. the knewers control -- newers control half of the country. this is a civil war, people are starving. the idea that if we do something it will stop should be replaced. >> you mentioned the nuers, riek machar's tribe, they control the land where the oil is. salva kiir - his dinka tribe is fighting the nuers. could we see a horror on the level of rwanda that led to the horrible genocide. >> watch my documentary on "vice", i was in the middle of that horror. you see a thin edge between civilisation where dinka and

nuer live side by side and a violent event electrifies the country and they kill each other out of fear or revenge. we built the country, spent a lot of effort. it's not a stable country. >> it's only three years old. >> a disturbing part of the documentary was your trip through an area, molakal. you met with a white army, they are a nuer militia, not directly under riek machar's chrome. >> the myth is there's a profit in south sudan who only tells people what he thinks people should do. these are essentially tribal men, cattle herders who congregate and attack the dinkas. i was among 30,000 angry men with spears and machine-gun set upon malay cow to kill people. >> they have been set in

horrible ways and places. hospitals, u.n. offices. we are talking famine, cholera outbreak. what do the people tell you. how do they see the future? >> first of all, the south sudan are disappointed. this is a country that has everything going for it. there was one political party that we helped structure. it didn't allow for the back and forth pressure release. secondly, there's no one there. when people talk about peacekeepers and what will the international community do, they fled. there's a few people working for the u.n., and the camps full of 20,000 people. there's nothing there. >> i argue most probably don't know what is going on. there's great ignorance about what is happening. an interesting part of what you did is the company you kept, you brought along a young man who was a lost boy, who left sudan

in the '90s and works in a costco in seattle, but has been involved in the birth of his new country. he started off hopeful thinking of running for office. disappointed. >> yes, there are mechanisms within ever ysociety to bring peace. he thought if he went there with his education and energy he could sit and solve this thing he realised a tidal wave of anger is bigger than one man. it's a great documentary about his point of view. not about me, a former child soldier, lost boy and trying to do something, and being desperately turned down by history and the weight of anger that was there. >> here is something that mashar told you about his training. >> reporter: where did you learn

your military skills? >> when, during - when it started [ inaudible ] >> what was the reaction to that, robert? >> he's a sharp cat. i mean, if you read the 130-page single-issue in "vice", and it's online, you understand riek machar is a smart man. he plays all angles, foreign backer, strategic business and tribal. we have been through this before. he was trained by u.s. special forces. they know about how to pull strings, and that was so sad and depressing and ironic. here we are again, where we started 10-20 years ago.

it's sad, a terrible tragedy. let's hope the world pays attention. you calling attention to it is an important first step. >> time to see what is trending on the website. >> bosnia and serbia call for international help. 40 have died in the devastating floods the ball can region has seen in a century, ravaging bosnia, serbia and croatia to a certain extent. they had about three months of rain in three days, causing river banks to burst and triggering mudslides. millionsion affected, tens of thousands evacuated, without access to electricity or clean drinking water. bosnia's foreign minister compared it to the 1992 bosnia war saying many lost everything, today they have nothing.

to make matters worst the region has to worry about landmine from the war, resurfacing. there were carefully placed signs warning of the 1 million landslides. because of the mudslides they've likely shifted. you can read more at the website aljazeera.com, and join the conversation online by tweeting to us. this is far from over. there's flood letters for serbia and northern bosnia. scary. >> straight ahead - a first-hand account of how the u.s. military is changing as it prepares for future fights. a striking number of people living longer around the world. n.a.s.a.'s newest effort to

>> on techknow... >> i'm at the national wind institute, where they can create tornados... >> a greater understanding... >> we know how to design for the wind speeds, now we design for... >> avoiding future tragedies >> i want a shelter in every school. >> techknow every saturday, go where science, meets humanity. >> this is some of the best driving i've ever done, even though i can't see. >>techknow >> is there an enviromental urgency? only on al jazeera america

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both genders, finishing 37th. japan has the world's longest living women with a life expect si of 87. iceland holds the mark for fen. people are living longer for several reasons. medical advance, decreased use of tobacco, blood pressure and the ending of wars in some reasons that cut many lives short. medical advancements made a huge impact. the who showing an increase in child deaths from measles, h.i.v., aids, and more. life expect si in low income nations shot up nine years, liberia with the most improved, followed by ethiopia and maldives. there's major disparity between rich and poor nations, high income countries averaging 90 nurses and midwifes for 10,000 people, versus two for low-income nation. 90 to 2.

high income nations - boys and girls expect to live 15 and 19 years longer, respectively. coming up, a message in a

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youo the ultimate message in a bottle - an attempt to communicate request extra terrestrials will be send out on board the horizon spacecraft on its way to pluto. who will write the message. universe. first, the conflict in ukraine is straining the cooperative relationship between the russian and american space programs, are we on the cusp of another space rate. dr derrick pits from franklin institute science museum joins us. as always, good to see you. this posturing from the russians continues. it was the head of their space programme making a crack about n.a.s.a. astronauts using trampolines to get to the international space station, then a ban on selling rocket motors and parts to the u.s. milt ci, and now refusing a plan to

extend the life of the space station past 2020. are we seeing the beginning of the end of the u.s.-russia cooperation in space? >> i think what is going on is the russians are trying to have some retort to the idea of economic sanctions. we are using that as a tool to get them to do something about the ukraine situation. and they want to try to answer back in some way that seems as if it will strike us how. and space seems to be the most vulnerable place for that. of course, the fact of the matter is if the russians decide to get out of being part of the space station by 2020, they will have been in the space station by that time for 20 years. that's a long time for a space-based project. so they might have their own space ambitions outside space stations. there's a question here, what is it that they think they can do. if they leave the international space station, they won't have a

foothold on the orbit. that would be a loss for them. given the fact that the united states is going to gain back its own launch capability by 2018 or 2012. they would have lost on both sides. it seems like the astronauts are getting along fine. it's a political issue on the noise. >> there's talk about dividing the space station in two, the russians saying they could operate independently of the u.s. but the u.s. provides most of the power and communications. the russians provide nav kags and prop ugs. is there a way the space station could survive with the split. >> it's happened before, that astronauts on board decided that they didn't want to communicate with the crowd because of a task that had to be done, that the

astronauts didn't agree with. the astronauts are interdependent on each other for their lives. they typically don't have these political issues separating them while they are on orbit. all of them are vulnerable. while on the ground there may be difficulties taking place, the guys up there depend on each other to stay alive. they must work together and recognise that they don't have the political differences and can't because we have to work together to stay alive. ambitions. >> the russian government promised to put 52 billion into the space agency over the next six years, it's almost doubling the budget. on friday the russians made a deal with china to do a space cooperation, could it be a sign of parting ways with the u.s. >> it could be.

there's nothing that says we had to remain joined at the hip, you know, forever and ever. this was a partnership programme that they agreed to be part of. partners could change. what could happen is that the russians can step out of it, the u.s. can take over the operation, and the russians go on to other partnerships that they want to work on. when it really comes to what the russians want to do, they have their own ambitions and international space station was one of those opportunities. >> you talked about us getting our own cap ysty to get -- capacity to get astronauts to the space station. disguise? >> i think it's a wonderful opportunity to light a fire under congress to make a decree or resolution or law or whatever it is they need to do to bullster the american space programme's capability to handle

business on its own. the lack of funding or reluctance to fund n.a.s.a. to make it happen, and support the independent contractors who are developing space low-earth orbit access, that needs to be pushed forward to get back to a place of self-reliance so we can do what we need to do on our own. >> two other topics - russia has approved a mission for the kepler space station, it was broken, it is now fixed. how did they fix it? what is it meant to do? >> they did something clever. the control system for the craft that keeps it on target has three elements. one is a rehabilitation wheel failed. so it -- reaction wheel failed. it couldn't do the sensitive work. they found they can rotate the craft that they can take advantage of the solar wind, a

blast of electromagnetic particles. and they can trim the sails like on a ship on the o, so the solar wind can keep it operating, extending life. it's an injeanious way of taking advantage or stretching the $600 million budget spent to g the spacecraft. >> some of the older among uts remember the voyager or pioneer spacecraft sent into space with a message for extra terrestrials. you are part of a group called one earth sending a message to intercellar space on the new horizon spacecraft that is on its way to pluto. how will the message be different from those of the past? >> it's radically different in that the content for this

message will be crowd sourced. this is a project that was developed by science artist and creative director of those two gold records on board the voyager spacecraft. john lombar came up with a brilliant idea of why not put some content on the new hasson spacecraft telling what earth is like - who we are, what the planet is about. the idea is rather than a 6-person group, he opened it up, figure out a way to open it up so people can provide suggestions for content of what goes on board. it's a brilliant idea. it provide diversity and invites everyone on the planet to participate. this is a wonderful chance for us to show anybody who might pick up the spacecraft thousands of years into the future, who we are here on earth. >> one earth. i may go online and put my own words in

there. derrick pitts, great to see you. the show may be over but the conversation continues on the website aljazeera.com/considerthis or facebook or google+, you can >> welcome the al jazeera america. ooem del walters. it is primary in some of the states. people in thailand are waking up to martial law. and the cost of climate change, ten major companies due more to the environment than some of the countries, that and could be costing you.