easy. and on sunday, here in al jazeera, youths in bank tell us the better their education, the higher the chances of being unemployed. and you can keep up to date with all our news on our website. aljazeera.com. >> it didn't take long. just a matters of days after the president publicly supported the secretary of veteran's affairs an efforts to fix the problems in the medical care, erik shinseki is out. that's the inside story. >> hello, i'm ray suarez. the veteran's administration

medical system was overwhelm with new cases from america's recent wars and the needs of vietnam vets well into the highest needs years of life. reports coming out of the veteran's affairs showing reduced waiting time. cleared out backlogs and high levels of satisfaction from the veterans. then bad news started to seep out. first, some were faking their new numbers. the waits were much longer. and systemic lying, untreated medical conditions, and evening managers reaching goals never achieved. they weren't confined to a few bad apple offices , and erik

shinseki resigned. >> the resignation came this morning. >> i said we would not tolerate misconduct, and we will not. there are too many veterans receiving care who deserve our best efforts, and an honest assessment if something is not working. >> the president thanked the retired four star army general erik shinseki . but after repeated reports of poor care and mounting criticism, the president decided he would accept shinseki's resignation with with respect. >> rick's commitment to our veterans is unwhiched. his service to our country is exemplary.

he has worked hard to identify the problems with access to care. but as he told me this morning the v.a. needs new leadership to address them. that was rick's judgment on behalf of his fellow veterans, and i agree. we don't have time for distractions. we need to fix the problems. >> reporter: 150 clinics and centers serve veterans. and there have long been complaints of backlog of veterans seeking care. the problem became acute of late when reports surfaced of mondays long wait of seeing a doctor and allegations of cooked books to cover up the problem.

and as calls for the resignation of shinseki grew , it confirmed 1700 vets were not on an official waitlist to see doctors. under the phoenix v.a. veterans waited almost four months to get an appointment. they found false data was being used to suggest a better level of service. in phoenix and many other va facilities. >> the number one priority is making sure that problems get fixed so that if there is a veteran out there who needs help, that they're getting a schedule, and they're able to come in and see a doctor, and if there are facilities that don't have enough doctors, enough nurses, enough space, that that information immediately gets in the hands of decision makers all the way up to me, and all the way to congress so we can get

more resources in there to help folks. >> on friday shinseki himself fired senior leaders at the phoenix va at the center of the scandal. his deputy will leave the v.a. and begin making the changes upon. >> i want somebody who is spending every minute of every day to figure out have we called every veteran that is waiting? have they gotten a schedule? are we fixing the system? what kind of technology do we need? have we made a realistic assessment of how long the wait times are right now and how are we going to bring those weight times down in certain facilities where the weigh wait times are do long. if we need more money, how much money do we need to ask from congress, and how am i going to make sure that congress delivers on that additional funding? that's what i want someone at the v.a. focused on.

not how are they getting second guessed, speculation about their futures and so forth and so on. >> before he resigned this morning. shinseki received a standing ovation. in his address he wholeheartedly apologized to the vets he had helped for years. >> the drip, drip, drip of v.a. allegations take its toll. our guests lewis, you were here just over a week ago. we talked about the same situation. we wondered if the secretary would be able to survive.

what changed in just over a week. >> a week ago the american region was of the opinion that the secretary would not survive this. we are not happy about it. it's a sad day for veterans. we are happy that the administration got in front of this and decided they needed to take serious action to change the culture and start to reform some of the hurt that is within the department of veteran affairs. so today we support this decision you looking forward to working with acting secretary gibson and working with transparency, clearing out these lists and working with them to make this a better v.a. >> you felt that it was untenable then, and a lot of people have come to your point of view. what is happening under the secretary's feet? >> well, the american region has looked at the performance levels

of staff and also the records and the backlog, and the adjudication process. we had inside knowledge that we had been sharing with the administration and the department of veteran affairs and congress for many years. we saw some of the problems that were happening which is what prompted us right after the scandal broke out in phoenix to say enough is enough, and it's time for the secretary to go. and we saw the writing on the wall. >> it became apparent that the problems were worse than anybody knew? these are very serious allegations. i make no bones about that. 1700 people on waitlists. that is 1700 people too many. secretary shinseki, he set the standard of 14 days as the maximum waiting time not only for primary care but specialty care and it was an ambitious target. i think it was a great goal that

we tried to get our veterans the care within that time frame, and it's unfortunate that a lot of mid-level managers gained that system saying look, at the excess problems and take steps to reform the system rather than sweeping it under the rug. >> what do we know about how well they were doing? >> they were using a variety of strategies. they would say your desired date is three months in the future. a there are a variety of details tha in the report. >> some people who know this department well say that if you're coming in cold to the top job that may not be enough time to fix what's wrong. is that right? >> there is no doubt that the

clock is running in terms of what the administration can do to fix this. and it's running faster if you consider congress will have to play a pivotal roll in helping the next secretary of the department of veteran's affairs move ahead. what i'm most concerned not if a new secretary comes in, but can they have the senior leadership they need to deal with the problems that have been--that my fellow colleagues have talked about in terms of the variety of problems. you're not talking about waite waitlists, but the backlog, still the deluge of military personnel who are still coming into the system. i hate to say this, but they'll have to walk, chew gum, pivot and pirouette, what have you. there are a number of problems that the next secretary will face.

>> when you lose your job and a lot of a lo people will lose their jobs in the next few days, do you have to know this system and military affairs well, or just take your pick of smart system managers, medical administrators, and the kind of people who run hospitals and medical centers in various places in the civilian world? who is the talent pool in fixing this. >> i want a leader who will take the president's vision and implement it. two characteristics i would like to see are one, the ability to turn a 200,000 plus organization that's spread out over the united states into a single team. second, someone who cannot only work with congress, but when necessary cajole or beat congress into submission in terms of providing the resources the department needs. there is a reason then that everyone starts looking towards senior retired military officers.

we've heard colin powell mentioned, admiral mull land, because they have managed those organizations and department with the politics that will be central to what happens over the next 18 months to two years. >> we're going to take a short break. when we come back, we'll talk more about how this could have happened. general serb shinseki is a very well respected and even celebrated man around washington. how did his career come to this end? >> al jazeera america presents the system with joe burlinger >> the dna testing shows that these are not his hairs >> unreliable forensics >> the problem the bureaus got is they fail, it's a big, big deal... >> convicted of unspeakable crimes did flawed lab work take away their freedom? >> i was 18 when i went in... when i came out i was 50... you don't get it back... >> shocking truths revealed

>> the system with joe burlinger only on al jazeera america

>> every saturday join us for exclusive, revealing, and surprising talks with the most interesting people of our time. rosie perez >> i had to fight back, or else my ass was gonna get kicked... >> a tough childhood... >> there was a crying, there was a lot of laughter... >> finding her voice >> i was not a ham, i was ham & cheese... >> and turning it around... >> you don't have to let your circumstance dictate who you are as a person >> talk to al jazeera only on al jazeera america >> welcome back to inside story. i'm ray suarez. just hours before resigning, general erik shinseki said that his agency had a systemic, lack of integrity on this edition of the program we're looking past the political to the practical. and what can be done to fix the

v.a. katherine, this is not the first time a secretary leaves having been thought to have done a bad job. it happens. we have a cabinet system. some people end up showered in praise. some people end up leaving under a cloud. but it sounds like he was giving orders, sending orders down and lies were coming back up the chain, and he never even knew. >> i do think the gap between what was happening on the ground and shinseki's very admirable goals was a serious contributing problem to this scandal. we have to remember that the v.a. has had a lot of problems. you're tackling 500 problems at once. the backlog, administering the new post expanded g.i. bill. and that in particular is a big success where you have over 1.5 million veterans get access to educational system. the system works. aid chance to put that in from scratch. it's harder to turn around the

bureaucracy that has had a chance to really settle in. the attention to--he pushed as hard as he could. he did a great job in the disability claims backlog. and unfortunately this . >> lewis, you were in chain of command at one time. was this a guy who spent much of his adult life giving orders and expecting them to be followed, and not really that suited to a world where people may do what you tell them to do or may not. >> i think katherine brings up an excellent point. he was an excellent manager but we need a strong leader. i don't think the leadership was sufficient to get him the truth that he needed. a good leader can ferret out when he or she is not being fed the truth.

secretary shinseki had been told on numerous occasions in public and private that his staff was not fort forthright either that they were not giving him the information that he needed or telling him things that were not true. >> it's tragedy income a way that he says in a bewildered way there was a lack of integrity up and down his chain of command at veteran's affairs. >> on one hand it was very difficult to watch him do in this morning. you're talking about a decorated combat veteran, a man who literally left part of himself back on the battlefield. and unfortunately this is what people will remember him for. what do you mean people would lie and lie for financial gain

when they are there to help our veterans, our men and women who have been on the battlefield. i understand that. i agree with the point that you have got to bring someone in who is going to be more skeptical of bureaucracy, and willing to breck it down and understanding how to built that as well. >> there is difference of opinion , katherine whether there is enough capacity in the system to handle a daunting patient population and one that has grown very rapidly in a very short period of time. >> certainly. the virginia is seeing more than they ever have. they're dealing with more complex injuries than they ever have. for the most part the care is extremely good. over half of veterans would rate the care they get from the va 9 or 10 on a 0 to 10 scale.

the challenge is the access. to understand what is our staffing levels? do we have sufficient doctors, specialists and are they distributed across the v.a. facilities. that's something that the v.a. has started to address, but they need to move quickly to get those hard numbers out and see what they can do to see that the resources and providers match the needs. >> is there enough resource to handle this load? >> not right now. i agree with what katherine is saying. you have to address this. one thing you have to consider, with more transitioning from the department of defense to the veteran's affair have to consider whether they can slow down that pace. maybe they need to be held in a system whether it's tri-care or being held on the base, be held

a little bit longer. >> slaiexplain that a little bit. i don't think people realize that there is a hand off when you're ending your time in activity duty and you switch from the department of defense to the department of veteran affairs. >> you put it very well. you're in the department of defense seeing department of defense-salaried doctors. then when you leave you're taken care of by the system. there may be shades of gray there where people may be seen by the dod for certain things. but what is the most challenging of this, and i'm not sure that my colleagues will agree, but the ability to transfer electronically th the medical records. to me that's just unacceptable. i don't understand why they still have that problem.

why the v.a. is not digitized after all these years, and why we can't seamlessly move these records from one department total other. >> you're shaking your head. it sounds like you've heard this story before. >> they went out to procure a system for lifetime electronic health records. the frustration has been within the community, not just th the american legion, but that they have wasted $1 billion, with a "b," $1 billion on this project and then abandoned it last year. now they'll start up in january, they both authorized solicitations to invite contractors in to secure this project, but neither one of them are working together. so once again you've got two agencies who are tasked by congress, and they're on performance measure payments. congress said we'll give you so much money just to get this out the door, then we're only going to give you 25% more. once you've proven to us you're

on the right track. they have not done that. the services committee believes they have enough information to move forward and thinks they might release the next pot of money. the veteran's committee is not convinced, and we're still at a stalemate. they are not working together, and it is infuriating. >> we'll take a short break, when we come back we'll talk about what happens now going forward both with the department of veteran's affairs and the v.a. medical centers. what's next? this is inside story.

america mobile app, available for your apple and android mobile device. download it now >> general erik shinseki told the president that the v.a. needed new leadership and he didn't want to be a distraction. the president agreed saying they did not have time for distractions, they need to fix the program.

that's the question, how to fix the program that is serving 8 million veterans. some people have rushed ahead and said this is the moment where you start to break up the v.a. where you start to use the private sector and it's resources to pick up some of this backlog. is that the right way to go? >> i have concerns about this notion of privatization. i do like the idea 6 making it easier to use the private sector. you can, but making it easier. but my concern is we have the same wait problems in the private sector. 90 days to sigh a dermatologist or cardiologist in some places, a month in others. and you flood the presiden

problem with 8 million veterans, it will not help the v.a. >> if you live part of the country where you need a prostate cancer screening and the administration tells you 30 days but some place local can do it in a week. >> i understand that argument, and it's very--i think we should consider the program, but the v.a. outforms th outperformance and out performs the private care. >> you think they should wait the 30 days? >> i think keeping most of the veteran's care within the v.a. it's the largest and the healthcare system is the best quality scores, and i don't think we should sacrifice that for a short-term fix. >> can i add something? just to emphasize katherine's point earlier.

it's not the quality of care. it's the access of care. balancing that and the proposals to using the private sector will really be key. >> how do you come up with that balanced approach. getting what people need in a timely fashion but not making them wait until you do it. >> the first thing do you is identify who is on these lists. congress cannot address the problems if think don't know what exists in a backlog. they can't give the v.a veteran affairs resource it is you don't know what they need. there is no lawmaker that is going to be successful in dismantling the department of veteran affairs. it's too big. that's a fallacy. veterans have worked too hard to get a seat at the table to become a cabinet level voice, we're not going to give that up,

and there is no reason why we should have to. we want to make sure that the center of all the care, as far as getting care, we agree that fee-based services may be needed to relief some that have backlog. how many people are on there because they had a cold and they wanted to see their primary healthcare physician. how many needed memory health or prosthetic care. we need to triage the list and find out where the needs are, get them into the v.a. and tbi. who is going to manage tbi better than the department of veteran affairs. if you have a cold, go down to the clinic and be seen there. we need to look at the veteran who is are waiting for care, what they needed and triage there. >> just a reminder tbi,

traumatic brain injury. how come katherine sebelius had time to fix the mess in her department and leave in a dignified way, and erik shinseki left under a clouds in this way. any questions? >> i'm jump in there. katherine sebelius left at the end of the open enrollment period. there was an end point. that turned out to be very successful. shinseki's problem is larger. there is not a clear deadline or finish line. >> i think clout comes in play here. secretary shinseki had used up all his clout on the hill. there were issues of trust at large, and i don't think he was going to be able to do the heavy lifting required to move the veterans--the department where it needs to go. >> mark jacobson s, katherine, thank you very much.

that's for being being with us. from washington, i'm ray suarez. >> on "america tonightmentful" force "america tonight": leaving veterans despr care. any change comes too late for the fallen soldiers who just couldn't wait for help. >> we've been told we need treatment and they said we don't really have any space for you or time for you. >> the system that led america's veterans down and why change at the top may not be enough to stave next generation of wounded. also tonight, the fight for