the airline at this stage, but i certainly think given their experience after the first plane went down in march, they will certainly be reacting far more quickly this time. but i think we can certainly expect something from the airline in the next few hours. >> about 16 gnt, you are watching al jazeera with continuing coverage of this breaking story. a malaysian airline near with border of ukraine and russia. the plane was flying from amsterdam to -- okay. what are these pictures? these are unconfirmed pictures.

okay. we don't know what those are, but hopefully when we get the first pictures of the crash, we will bring them to you here on al jazeera. just a bit more on what we know. the plane was last seen on radar some 80 kilometers west of the ukrainian city of donetsk. ukrainian interior ministry official is saying that this plane was brought down by a ground to air missile. let's cross over to rory challands now. rory it was the interfax news agency that first reported this plane crash. what more do we know at this stage? >> well, interfax wouldn't tell us the name of the source that had given them off of the information. so a lot of things are still very murky about this crash, but we do know this is going to be a huge game changer for this conflict, the conflict going on

at the moment between the ukrainian army and pro-russian separatists. already the finger of blame is starting to be pointed backwards and forwards. the ukrainian government is hinting that it is the rebels. the rebels themselves say not them. we have here from the self proclaimed donetsk people's republic, they say the plane was shot down by the ukrainian side. we simply do not have such air defense systems according to the rebels. our man pads -- this is a type of missile system -- have a firing range of 3,000 to 4,000 meters. that was from the special representative and security council member. so what they are saying is that it was most likely that the

ukrainian army shot the plane down. the ukrainian army, ukrainian government saying it was the rebels. we don't know at the moment whether it was shot down at all, but it was clear the plane was flying over an area in which planes have been tumbling out of the sky in the last few days, and ukraine has been pointing the finger blamed squarely at russia for at least one of those. it was saying earlier today the russian army or russian air force, or russian jets had shot down a fighter jet plane that was flying in ukrainian air space yesterday, on wednesday evening. so this is still a situation where -- you know, the information is coming in. we're going to have to get more when it arrives. >> right. all right. rory i was just going to ask you about -- you know, as you said, ukraine has accused the russians of supporting the separatists on

the ground in eastern ukraine. what sort of evidence do the ukrainians have, and do we know if it turns out to be -- what sort of support has russia been providing to the separatists? the >> well, that is the big gray area. how much support has russia been providing to the separatists. i have been down to the border and seen aid flowing across the border myself. but it was food, medicines, medical supplies, and clothes, and that sort of thing. that was going across the border last week. it was going across the border to the fighters who are taking on the ukrainian military in the east of the country, so it is very feasible that other things are going across that border as well. much more high-tech weaponry, and there have been videos on youtube and twitter in the last few days proclaiming to show

rockets being launched from the russian side into the ukrainian territory. or being wheeled across the border, unloading their rockets and then going back across the border to russia. these are unconfirmed. and the ukrainian government has not really been able to produce any convincing evidence that absolutely points the finger of blame at russia. they are saying, very vociferously that russia is involved in this, and in large part the west is believing that. russia has always denied it, and russia says it has no interference in ukraine, no coordinat coordinated military experience in ukraine. but that is not being believed in many many capitols in the west. >> we're just hearing right now that ukraine's prime minister has ordered an investigation into what he calls this airplane

catastrophe in eastern ukraine. i'll remind our viewers that we are hearing reports that a malaysia airlines plane with 295 people on board has crashed on the border with russia. and they were saying earlier the planed hasn't reached russian air place. >> yeah, that's true. i was looking at some charts that purported to show the routes that this airplane was taking en route from amsterdam, and it seemed to be bisecting the two cities so this appears to be right over the conflict zone as the analyst was saying a few moments ago, civilian planes

should not be flying over war zones. but they are saying it never reached russian territory, and by implication the russians would be saying we have nothing to do with this. >> all right. rory, let's head to stephanie on the line from the malaysian capitol. stephanie malaysian airlines, have they confirmed that this plane has crashed or not? >> yes, it has been confirmed, malaysian airlines has said on its twitter feed it has lost contact with mh17 from amsterdam and it has said it's last known position was over ukrainian airplane, obviously quite close, i believe, to the russian border. this obviously is the second plane malaysian airlines has lost in the last few months, obviously the circumstances are quite different, but this is a great tragedy for obviously all

of the people on board and for the airline it's a, which is struggling financially at the moment, and there has been a lot of talk about it being taken -- privatized and refinanced in some way, so this is a great tragedy. i mean, it has gone midnight here, and we're trying to get as many people from malaysian airlines out of bed -- >> all right. have we lost here? we have lost stephanie. okay. she's still there. okay. stephanie, this is boeing 777, i hear. boeing 777 malaysian airlines plane mh 17. i think we have a picture of a similar plane. this is it. and this is the plane that is said to have gone down on the border between russia and ukraine, it had 295 people on

board. 280 passengers and 15 crew members. stephanie, tell us about the safety record of malaysia airlines. obviously we all remember the missing malaysia airlines plane which was heading to beijing with 270 people on board. but this is an airline which over all has a very good safety record. >> yes, it does have a very good safety record, and from my memory it has no recent major accidents or incidents other than obviously the malaysian airlines plane which went missing in march on its way to beijing that was also a boeing 777, which as an airline -- or sorry as an aircraft itself has a very good safety record. so as i said before, this obviously is a very great tragedy to -- to lose to -- two aircraft in a matter of months. obviously the circumstances of

this disappearance are -- is under speculation at the moment, but the ukrainian officials are saying it was shot down by a ground to air missile and given the security situation on the ukrainian/russian border over the last few months the speculation has to be in fact it was deliberately shot down. >> and this is what an official from the interior ministry in ukraine is saying that the plane was shot down by a ground to sar missile. this comes at a time where there has been tension between russian and ukraine. ukraine accusing russia of shooting down a ukrainian fighter jet earlier in that same area. an accusation that russia has denied. russia saying that that plane was shot down by a missile fired from a jet on wednesday.

and there would be questions of why there would be a civilian plane flying in that area. let's go back to stephanie in qualalampore. stephanie, what might this latest tragedy do to this ear line owes future. >> i'm sorry, i didn't hear the question. >> there was no question. we were just discussing the safety of the airlines and how this latest tragedy is going to effect the company. >> yes, the company is in very dire financial straights at the moment, along with the loss of the flight to beijing back in march and obviously now the loss of a second 777, this will put

much further strain on the company, and a few months ago it reported huge losses of several hundred million dollars, and there has been a lot of speculation about how it can get itself out of this financial hole. i mean, malaysian airlines is actually -- pretty much state owned. its large shareholder is an agency of the malaysian government. and there has been talk of the agency floating its stake in some way, and the whole company being refinanced, and made up -- obviously that would include major redundancies from the staff. malaysian air lines has a very good safety record and wins regularly airline of the year in this area. so obviously the loss of this

second aircraft is going to be a major blow across the board. >> all right. stephanie thank you. let's cross over once again to rory challands in moscow. rory, if we can bring up by the way the map there of where this plane is said to have crashed. along the border between russia and ukraine. rory tell us abc what has been happ happening in this area in the last couple of days and weeks. >> well, in the last -- well, i'll go back to monday, because it was really on monday that the first allegation started flying from kiev saying that they had seen or had evidence of russian military staffers on the ground in eastern ukraine. then as the days wore on this week, we had more allegations. we had allegations from kiev that the rebels fighting in

eastern ukraine were using very sophisticated missile systems for bringing down planes, and those missile systems could only really be supplied berussia, according to kiev. then we started hearing that rockets coming from the russian side of the border had taken down a ukrainian jet. then today we heard that a russian jet has taken down a ukrainian jet. so this is the kind of thing that has been going on in that area over the last few days. of course on the ground there is casualties being listed every hour, really, between -- and fighting between the pro-russian separatists and the ukrainian army going on in this zone basically around the cities of donetsk and luhansk.

it is in exactly that area where we think this plane has gone down, something that will complicate the investigation into this event is that it seems that the pro-russian separatists have control of the area where this plane went down. so given the finger of blame is being pointed backwards and forwards, the ukrainian government saying it is the pro-russian rebels that shot it down, and the pro-russian rebels are saying that it was probably done by the ukrainian army because they don't have the type of weaponry that could have shot down a plane at that altitude. the rebels controlling this area is going to make the investigation very complicated indeed. but i'll just go through a few new lines i have been given from the ukrainian government. we heard from the prime minister saying the ukrainian government is forming a commission to probe into the malaysian plane crash. >> and they are denying --

>> poroshenko -- >> rory, yes, the ukrainian presidential press service is denying that ukraine an armed forces were involved. saying that ukrainian armed forces were not involved at all. >> yes, indeed. and also the rebels themselves, the donetsk people's republic saying that they are ready to allow international experts in to investigate the causes of the boeing crash near donetsk. so this is going to be a huge game changer for this conflict. we're already seeing a ramping up of the kind of pr machine, fingers pointing, who is responsible. we don't even know yet whether this plane was shot down. it is possible this was some sort of other accident. >> right. no confirmation. it's important to point that out. this plane was shot down even

though they are saying the plane was brought down by a bulk ground-to-air missile. and i believe we have a picture of what this weapon looks like. this is the weapon that the interior ministry says brought down this malaysian airlines plane. it looks very sophisticated. and the question is could the pro-russia separatists have such sophisticated weapon, and if yes, where could they get it from? >> well, if the ukrainian government is saying it is one of these missile systems that brought down the plane, then you could guess that maybe they think that such weaponry has been brought across the border and supplied to the pro-russian separatists by russia itself. they haven't really been able to provide any concrete evidence of any of this. there was a press briefing given earlier in new york by the

ukrainian ambassador to the un, in which -- you know, he said that russia was providing similar sorts of -- of high-tech weaponry, but couldn't give that sort of smoking gun. couldn't actually provide the real evidence that such -- such things were happening. but as i was saying earlier, i have been down to the border, and it is a porous border, i have seen there is a supply of at least humanitarian material going across the border. i was in a warehouse just a few days ago filled with medicines, filled with packages of pasta, clothes, and clams, and things like that. some of that was going to the refugees who have come across the border to ukraine to russia, and are now in camps or staying are friends and family. but some of it was going across to ukraine through smuggling routes. the woman i spoke to who told me

how that happened was that they would take things to the border under their own steam and then they would lease with the fighters on the other side of the border, and it was the fighters that would make sure they weren't stopped by the ukrainian army. so there are people in russia supplying the pro-russian fighters, at least with humanitarian supplies and medicines and that sort of thing. but if weaponry of the magnitude of -- you know, the ability to bring down a passenger yet is -- jet is being smuggling across, that is a mush -- much bigger fish. and that's why they are trying as hard as it can to leverage the eu to hit russia with the

same kind of sanctions that the united states has just hit russia with. >> all right. rory, let's just pause and remind our viewers of what we're talking about. for those of you just joining us, what we know so far about this malaysian airlines plane that is said to have crashed over ukraine. 295 people were on board. the plane was flying from amsterdam, malaysian airline says it has lost contact with the plane in ukrainian air space. it was last seen some 80 kilometers west of the eastern ukrainian city of donetsk. rory challands is live with us from moscow. this information first reported by the russian interfax news agency. and we have had a denial from the ukrainian presidency that

ukrainian armed forces were involved in the downing of this plane. obviously huge implications, rory for the situation? eastern ukraine. >> yeah, there are, and this is going to be -- as i say a massive game changer, because this is a conflict, which has been -- you know, a nasty conflict, and has claimed many, many lives, but in comparison to other conflicts going on in the world, this is not the conflict that has claimed that many civilian lives. so for a plane to be brought out of the sky, if that is what happened, with civilians on board, 295 people, we are hearing all of those people are dead. if that is the case, and if that was something that was a direct result of this conflict, then suddenly, we are looking at a whole different type of war, and the ramifications of that are going to be huge, and of course

we can't predict what those will be at the moment, but it is undeniable that the ramifications of a passenger jet coming down from military fire if that's what happened would alter this completely. >> let's hear from pavel, we spoke to him earlier, he is a military analyst, and he says it will be extremely difficult to find out who is responsible. >> the plane was flying over a war zone, basically, where there's continuous fighting between ukrainian forces and russian-backed rebels. there have been planes taken down and helicopters by the rebels before that, and recently there was a plane taken down. it was a transport plane on

[ inaudible ] 26th, which was flying rather high, which may mean -- at least that's what ukraine said that the rebels have not only shoulder launch anti-aircraft missiles but more serious missiles. of course i believe both sides -- all sides in the conflict will say that they have no responsibility, and it would be rather hard to establish who actually shot the missile, though maybe if there are nato [ inaudible ] planes flying over poland and romania, maybe they saw something. such missiles create a hail of shrapnel that kills a lot of people on board before it actually hits the ground, so survivors would be most likely

impossible to find. if this was a -- maybe it was some other kind of missile, right now i believe it's too early to jump to conclusions, but these missiles can hit at planes flying at high altitude and at low altitude, these are regular missiles, radar guided. maybe there was ukrainian military air activity at that time, and if there was a crew firing that missile, that could actually make a mistake and the missile self guidance system could take on a bigger target if the military target disappeared, and take on civilian target. such things basically happens sometimes. that's why planes should not fly over war zones. of course all sides will be denying responsibility. all right.

let's take you now live to the united nations and our correspondent is standing by. christine, i understand you have been speaking to the ukrainian ambassador to the un about this crash? >> actually i spoke to his spokesperson a short time ago, and he says that they are reacting to media reports from ukraine at this point. they don't have the official word from kiev, but they are concluding, based on those media reports that this plane was shot down in the exact same area as two ukrainian military planes. one was shot down yesterday and another on monday. the ukrainians have gone on the record -- in fact earlier today held a press conference, claiming that the russians are directly involved in the conflict in the area, and they cited as evidence pictures of russian military equipment spotted in eastern ukraine. right now they are reacting only to media reports not to official

reports from their capitol, but they do believe this plane was shot down based on what has been happening in that area. we don't know independently exactly where the plane landed. reuters is claiming it is 40 miles from the russian border, the scene of fighting between the two sides. again the ukrainians have made these allegations. earlier today i did speak to the russian ambassador and asked for his response to the allegations that russian were shooting down ukrainian military planes. he said we didn't do it. he left a security council meeting early just a short time ago without speaking to the media. he left unbeknownst to the media that was waiting outside to talk to him about this issue. >> all right. christine, thank you very much. now we're getting some

pictures off of social media -- pictures that we cannot independently verify. this picture is said to show the geographic location of where this crash happened. it is said to be in eastern ukraine. as you can see there -- there's a part of the plane which is believed to be the fuselage, and from what it looks like this would be part of a malaysian airlines plane. these are pictures coming to us from social media, from twitter. no way for us to independently confirm these pictures. rory challands is live with us from moscow. rory anymore information coming out of russia on this crash? >> well, we're hearing from the donetsk people's republic. now this is the breakaway region

of eastern ukraine, pro-russian separatists control the area in which the plane went down. so it i think they who have been the first on the screens, and what we're hearing from the donetsk people's republic deputy prime minister is many children are dead. we're hearing everyone who was on board has died. there are body parts scattered around a 15-kilometer area around the crash site. and reuters are also saying that at least 100 bodies have been seen there. so it's sounding like it's a very, very grizzly scene on the ground where this plane came down. burning wreckage of an airplane. already we are seeing the finger of blame being pointed backwards and forwards. and the ukrainians are saying

the pro-russian separatists shot it down with a bulk ground to air missile. and the pro-russian separatistings say they don't have that kind of weaponry. we simply don't have such of systems. that was from the donetsk people's republic prime minister special representative. so the investigation into exactly what happened here will be very, very difficult indeed, because it is the rebels who were controlling the area of the crash site. they have said they will open it up into international investigat investigators, but it is in the middle of a war zone. and will be very difficult to

get of. if it was shot down and if it was shot down by one side or the other, that is going to have a massive impact. we can't speculate what the impact will be, but from the russian side of things, moscow will be looking at this, and if it turns out it was the rebels -- if it was the pro-russian separatists, it is going to try to assistance itself as much as possible from any responsibility in this affair. >> all right. rory, you are watching al jazeera and our continuing coverage of this breaking news story. a malaysian airlines plane is said to have crashed in ukraine. the russian interfax news agency is reporting. malaysian an air lines said it lost