and will be very difficult to get of. if it was shot down and if it was shot down by one side or the other, that is going to have a massive impact. we can't speculate what the impact will be, but from the russian side of things, moscow will be looking at this, and if it turns out it was the rebels -- if it was the pro-russian separatists, it is going to try to assistance itself as much as possible from any responsibility in this affair. >> all right. rory, you are watching al jazeera and our continuing coverage of this breaking news story. a malaysian airlines plane is said to have crashed in ukraine. the russian interfax news agency is reporting. malaysian an air lines said it lost contact with the plane.

it was last seen 80 kilometers west of the eastern ukrainian city of donetsk. christine is at the united states for us. she has been speaking to ukrainian officials about the crash. what more are they telling you. >> the security council has been meeting on libya. and we're trying to get reaction from other ambassadors. we know the russian ambassador left early and alerted media that we were waiting outside to question him about this crash. this plane went down in an area where fighting is happening, they say. the plane was shot down

wednesday another was shot down. and they have blamed russia for being blamed for these attacks. whether it is coming from the russian side of the border, or the ukrainian side of the border they can't say for sure, but this is their belief. now russia has denied any involvement in the shooting down of ukrainian military planes. the russian ambassador himself told me we didn't do it. but they have not reacted from here at the united nations to this latest crash of the malaysian jet liner. >> christine thank you very much. let's now speak to our diplomatic editor james bayes who joins us from london. there has been tit-for-tat accusations between the russians and the ukrainians in that area

where this plane is said to have crashed. there has been obviously already international reaction. what are you hearing? >> we're getting reaction every few moments from different places. including from key players. the president of ukraine only in power for just over a month has said that we don't exclude that the plane was shot down, but ukraine's military didn't shoot it down. and we're also hearing from the malaysian prime minister saying we're launching a full inquiry. and a full inquiry will be what is needed. i have speaking to military experts over the last hour or so as well as to diplomats to try to see what they can tell us about that. i am told that really the only people who can tell for sure what happened are those with sophisticated satellite technology and in effect i'm told that means only the u.s.

and russia. probably are able to see the fingerprints of exactly where this missile was fired from. yes, nato is in the eastern european area, but i'm told it doesn't have eyes over that particular place where the plane came down, so it would probably be the u.s. as a nato member that would come up with any information. we have learned that president obama has been briefed fully on this, and i'm also hearing reports, which we would like to get confirmed soon, hopefully, that he has also had a conversation with president putin. that's an unconfirmed report. i am also being told that this is not something that you could achieve with what the military calls man pads. the shoulder to air missiles.

you would need something more sophisticated. you need a pretty sophisticated missile system to do this. >> right. and the official of the interior ministry in ukraine who has been speaking about this say this is a suffice to air missile. what have the experts told you about this weapon? how sophisticated of weapon is it? and who could possibly own such a weapon? >> well, this weapon, and i was going to come to it -- the same weapon is being mentioned by many military experts, and it is a soviet era system. and originates from russia in effect. so if the russians weren't responsible, then how did it get to eastern ukraine? and how did something as sophisticated as this manage to

make its way across the border, even if the the russians are not responsible, there will be question marks about russian involvement and why the russians didn't see a piece of kit like this crossing their border into ukraine. >> james of course this will have huge implications for the conflict in eastern ukraine which has been going on for sometime now. how do you see it evolving? orb -- obviously we don't have all of the answers, but what implications do you see it having? >> i think unofficially in speaking to those that i have spoken to so far, there will be a moment of calm. no one wants to rush to judgment with something as serious as this. and i think this goes potentially way beyond the

conflict in ukraine. this is about the west and its relationship with russia, which is at one of its worst points already since the end of the soviet union. >> james i would like you to talk about nato's role in this conflict, and what has it been doing so far? and will we see anymore involvement from nato? >> it certainly will be discussed in the corridors in brussels. i have spoken to people there. it is already being discussed in brussels. i expect we'll have a statement coming out later. what action will nato take? that's not clear at this stage. already they have strengthened their operations in the area, and put extra resources in some of those countries that neighbor russia. they have sent ships for the first time to the black sea. so nato is already on a much

higher level of alert since crimea was annexed by russia, and since this ongoing crisis. i think we need to first have to find out what is happening. and i'm sure that's what is going on right now in places like the pentagon and the cia. >> all right. james thank you. as james was saying reaction is slowly starting toment come after the news that a malaysian airplane has crashed on the border of ukraine and russia. rory challands is life from moscow. what is the reaction if any from moscow? >> well, i wanted to pick up on what james was saying. he said that obama was speaking

to pollute tin -- putin on the phone. that has been confirmed. putin informed obama on the air traffic service report on the malaysia plane crashing, and what the implications of that are is that this plane did not come into russia air space. so that is russia saying to america we did not shoot this plane down. this has nothing to do with us. they talked about many other things, but for what we are talking about at the moment, that was the most relevant point that was discussed. of course this isment coming on a day where these two leaders are at the worst point, you know, in their relations as james was saying that they have been since the end of the cold war. we have -- russia suffering under some fairly punitive u.s. sanctions that were unveiled

late last night. so for these men to be talking on the phone is significant in and of itself. >> rory remind us of the current context in the area. the military and also the political tensions between the ukrainian government in kiev and the russian government in moscow. >> well, it seems that the plane went down somewhere between the eastern ukrainian cities of luhansk and donetsk, and these are the two breakaway regions of eastern ukraine that have been the focus of conflict for months now, and in the last week we have seen, i think, an escalation in what has been going on. not necessarily in terms of the number of casualties, but in terms of the rhetoric and in terms of the accusations from the ukrainian side and the

russian side about -- about this sort of sophistication -- sophistication of attacks, and whaz been going on essentially is that on monday, the ukrainian government started to say it was seeing signs of russian military officers not on their side of the border, but on the ukrainian side of the border, helping the pro-russian separatists. then they started to say that they were using sophisticated ground to aramis siel systems. and after that we heard there were missiles coming from the russian side that brought down a jukian jet. and today we heard a russian jet shot down a ukrainian jet. i have been speaking to military analysts here on the russian side who say that it is certainly not unfeasible that this has been going on. and the reason they said that is

because for the last week or so, it seems that the kremlin -- that moscow has been becoming increasingly worried that the separatists in eastern ukraine are staring defeat in the face. that they are starting to be bested by though ukrainian army and military. and the reason why is because the ukrainian military has air superiority. so that would explain why we have started to see this spread of information about planes falling out of the sky. the analysts say if russia is that worried about what has been going on in ukraine and this seeming retreat of the pro-russian separatists, then one it could redress that balance is by supplying the separatists with sophisticated ground-to-air missile systems that could bring down planes.

of course this is speculation. it has not been proven and the ukrainian government . . . >> what is believed to be this plane -- this malaysian airlines plane that crashed in eastern ukraine. these are pictures up loaded on social media, as you can see what looks like debris and smoke up in the sky.

this seems to be in a field, lots of heavy smoke. parts of the plane that we have seen so far, identify it as a malaysia airlines plane. but these are the first pictures that we're getting that we can't identify verify obviously. you see there the malaysia flag on the fuselage. these are pictures being aired on russian state television, as well, i'm told. these are the latest pictures of the crash site. 295 people are said to have been on board this malaysia airlines plane that crashed amid allegations that it was shot down. this is what interior ministry officials in ukraine are saying. malaysia airlines itself says it

lost contact with the flight from amsterdam over ukraine while it was in ukrainian air space. the ukrainian presidency has confirmed this crash, and separatists rebels have denied being involved, separatist rebels in eastern ukraine have denied any involvement as well as the ukrainian army. earlier we spoke to pavel, a military expert, and he says it will be extremely difficult to find who was responsible for this crash. >> the plane was flying over a war zone, basically, where there's a continuous fighting between ukrainian forces and russian-backed rebels in the area. there have been planes taken down and helicopters by the rebels before that and recently

there was a plane taken down. it was a transport plane which was flying rather high, which may mean that at least that's what ukrainians said that the rebels have acquired not only shoulder-launch anti-aircraft missiles, but more serious missiles that can shoot down planes flying 6, maybe even 10 -- here it was 10 kilometers. of course i believe both sides. all sides in the conflict will say that they have no responsibility, and it would be rather hard to establish who actually shot the missile. though maybe if there were nato planes flying over poland and romania, maybe they saw something. they create a hail of shrapnel that kills a lot of people on board before it actually hits

the ground. so survivors would be most likely impossible to find. this is a -- if it was a bulk -- maybe it was some kind of other missile. right now i believe it's too early to jump to conclusions. but these missiles can hit at planes flying at high altitude and at low altitude. these are regular missiles, radar guided. maybe there was ukrainian military air activity at that time, and if there was a crew firing that missile, they could actually make a mistake, and the missile self guidance system could take on a bigger target if the military target disappeared, it took on civilian target. such things basically happens

sometimes. that's why planes should not fly over war zones. of course all sides will be denying responsibility. >> while separatist rebels have been fighting ukrainian government forces in the area where this plane is said to have been downed, and early on thursday, ukrainian officials blamed the russian air force of shooting down one of its jets on wednesday, an accusation which the russians denied. james bayes is with us. james this is effectively a war zone, and the first question that comes to mind is why would a civilian aircraft be flying into such a dangerous zone? this >> it is a very important question. my colleagues including some in ukraine recently say they have seen civilian aircraft flying over there from a number of

different airlines. having said that it appears there were some aircraft that were not using that route. the u.s. federal aviation administration say its aircraft were not allowed to use that route because of the danger, and also the uk civil aviation authority issued a notice to airman, i have a copy here. due to the potentialer for cob flikting aircraftic control instructions from the ukrainian and russian authorities and for the related potential misindication of civil aircraft, the uk aircraft operators are strongly advised to avoid until further notice the air space and lists the details of the air space and the lateral limits that they are not fly. that was issued to uk airlines, but it appears not internationally, and not to malaysian airlines. >> james, ukrainian interior minister official saying the plane was downed by a

ground-to-air missile. i believe you have information as to what -- possibly this weapon could be, and the question of course is who could have such a weapon? >> well, we're talking about a weapon system which dates from the soviet times. it's the buck system as we mentioned earlier on. and it's quite sophisticated. it's cold war technology, but still pretty dangerous. nato had a code name for it known as the glad fly. it is sophisticated and can hit something pretty high in the air. but the significant thing for us is the size of this system. this is missiles on the back of a tracked vehicle. this isn't something you could smuggle over the border without anyone detecting. and interesting there are some journalists from the associated

press who say they saw something similar in eastern ukraine on thursday parked in a village in eastern ukraine on thursday. so that is the suspicion this system that comes from the soviet era. >> james talk us through the diplomatic tensions, the political tensions between russia and ukraine. the ukrainians had complained about russia to the united nations, accusing russia of downing their jets and supporting the separatists in eastern ukraine. >> yes, we have been hearing this consistently since the whole of this crisis started over crimea, and then over the rest of -- of eastern ukraine. we have of course had the russians diplomatically coming out very, very strongly and saying it is the ukrainians to blame, the ukrainians that are creating tensions, launching a

military campaign that is causing the problem. and the russians have been very, very forthright with their diplomacy. they have been very aggressively stating their position. i think it will be harder now for the russians -- it doesn't look from what we're hearing, very early reports, and it's not very clear that this actually was fired from russian territory. it seems definitely from most reports we're seeing to have come from eastern ukraine, but i does look like a piece of russian military technology. how did it get in the hands of a group of separatists? that will be the question they will be asking. >> okay. james let's remind our viewers of what we have been talking about. malaysian airlines plane with 295 people on board has crashed in eastern ukraine. this is said to have happened in

eastern ukraine. and there are reports of charred bodies being found near that town in gravovo. witnesses on the ground talking about charred bodies, and this is a picture that was up loaded on twitter, said to show debris from the plane, the fuselage of the play malaysian airlines plane that went down in eastern ukraine with 295 people on board. malaysian airlines has confirmed it lost contact with the airline when it with us in ukrainian air space. the russians say -- okay, this is the actual location of where those charred bodies are reported to have been found in eastern ukraine, not far from the border with russia. rory challands is in moscow for us. rory what is the latest information coming out of moscow on this accident?

>> well, i have just been looking on my phone at some flight plan details, and what they seem to suggest at the moment is that there is a fairly dramatic rerooting of aviation away from the area of which this flight went down, and you can understand why that would be the case. but the latest here from russia is vladimir putin and barack obama have spoken on the phone in the last few hours. they had a fairly long conversation about the conflict that is going on, about sanctions being levied by the u.s. against russia, and also of course, they have talked about this incident. and what vladimir putin said to barack obama was along the lines of what he had been told by russian aviation sthoert authorities, which is that this plane had not crossed into

russian air place. the implication of that of course for the russian side of things that is the russians can say, we didn't do this. this wasn't anything to do with us. and i suspect that's the message that vladimir putin had for barack obama. >> dozens of bodies reported to have been site and scattered around the smoldering wreckage of the malaysian airlines jet that crashed in eastern ukraine on thursday. this is according to reuters news agency. we have rory challands in moscow, our diplomatic james bayes is with us as well. just to -- to tell you what we know so far is that there were -- 295 passengers on board this malaysia airlines plane that was en route to [ inaudible ] originating from

amsterdam, and a number of airlines have now decided not to use eastern ukrainian air space at all, as a result of this crash. lufttanza has decided to avoid eastern air space. james bayes our diplomatic editor is in london for us. james the area where this crash happened is effectively a war zone. just remind us of where all -- or what has been happening there, and also a question that we mentioned earlier, why would a civilian aircraft be flying in such a dangerous zone? >> well, this was an area where we were all expecting there to be trouble. we knew that now that the separatists had had their area reduced. really donetsk was the center of everything, and there was a great deal of concern. in fact just 24 hours ago, while

i was at an eu summit, many of the eu leaders wanted to talk about the situation in ukraine, and put that back at the top of the world's agenda, because they said they had information that russia was transporting equipment and supplies across the border. that was 24 hours ago. and now we have a passenger plain with 295 soles aboard that has now crashed by a mill siel being fired into it. what i think you will see in the next few hours is a period of caution from the governments around the world because this is such a serious matter; that they really want to gather the facts and determine what is going on. from the experts i have spoken to, if you really want evidence of what has happened here, you

would need spotlights to tell you and show you exactly where this missile was fired from. and i'm told the only people who had eyes on the area, probably, are the u.s. and russia. nato has capabilities on eastern europe and on russia's borders to protect its members, although ukraine is not currently a member of nato. so nato is not able to see that itself, but the nato member that is most important, the u.s. is watching it. we also know that there has been this phone conversation between president obama, and president putin, a pretty lengthy conversation they had. president obama currently not actually at the house. he is in delaware, which is where air force one is, and i'm sure he is using his very well equipped plane as his command center to make these secure phone calls to his russian

counterpart. i suspect there will be a period of all of the world leaders taking stock, trying to gather information before they come out with their view on who was responsible for this, and then i think you'll start to hear condemnation. then i think you'll start to see in brussels, nato ambassadors meet at the north atlantic council. you'll see in new york the undersecurity council i see no doubt in the coming days there is likely to be a security council emergency meeting on this subject. whether it takes place today, thursday, i think is not probably likely, because they want to just make sure they have all of the facts before they rush to judgment. >> all right. james bayes in london there. you are watching al jazeera. coming up to 1700 gmt, and we have a special continuing coverage of the malaysian

passenger plane that had crashed in eastern ukraine. this plane crash interested in the east with 295 passengers, and crew on board. the ukrainian government says it was hit by a missile. the president of ukraine has said the military was not involved. now this is one of the first images of the plane, which is said to show debris from the downed airliners. images that we can't dentally verify. wreckage has been down -- >> our coverage of the apparenting down, now continues with al jazeera america live from new it was traveling from amsterdam to kuala lumpur. now immediate reports say the plane has crashed and in fact was shot down. that cash i want to show you right now on the map,