passenger plane that had crashed in eastern ukraine. this plane crash interested in the east with 295 passengers, and crew on board. the ukrainian government says it was hit by a missile. the president of ukraine has said the military was not involved. now this is one of the first images of the plane, which is said to show debris from the downed airliners. images that we can't dentally verify. wreckage has been down -- >> our coverage of the apparenting down, now continues with al jazeera america live from new it was traveling from amsterdam to kuala lumpur. now immediate reports say the plane has crashed and in fact was shot down. that cash i want to show you right now on the map, happened near the

ukrainian border near russia. 295 people were onboard that plane. 280 passengers 15 crew members. once again, been nighing at a low altitude about 33,000 feet when it was hit by a missile. that plane was last seen on flight radar about 50-miles from done necessarying. there with more on the crash. >> not many details right now, we know that an airline passenger airplane has crashed in ukraine, near it's border russia. eastern border with russia. now the details are very sketchy, but obviously considering what is going on in that part of this country, over the last several weeks is very concerning because you have a military conflict, heavy military conflict going on there, that includes engagement with aircraft, with military aircraft. we with are talking about engangment that wasn't just low to the ground, 6500 meters, an airplane was brought down, i am not connecting the dots between this passenger

aircraft crashing and these military aircraft that have been brought down, but just to put it into context. this is that same area somewhere unconfirmed lotters. those say a book missile, such as the ones you are seeing right here, may have shot the plane down, david chuter has been looking into that. david, what do we know? >> well, the claim comes from officials with the ukrainian interior ministry, this is a system they would be familiar with, and we will explain why, when you hear the reference to buk muscle system, it is a medium range service missile that the russians began producing in the mid 1990's. it was a update to what used to be known as the sa 6, and s.a. 11. that the russians had during much of the cold war. particularly in the late 1980's. the buck missle system had a range of

50-kilometers or 20-miles so when you hear reports that the crash site is about 20 miles from russian air space that would still put the aircraft within range of a buk muscle battery. nato officials view the buk system cruise mills and also smart bombs. bombs that are dropped by western aircraft. the buking is on the ground, consistents of seven ground vehicles there is a radar, acquisition type. the time it takes to spot something on radar, is less than five minutes and then once they make the decision to fire, it is only about 22 seconds from that time until the missip is launched. again, while this was made by the russians and updated in the late 1990's, at this point, a

number of officials say this' as many as 11 countries around the world that have this type of system including syria, which got it from the russians and also ukraine. when they annexed crimea. again, it is a system that has the range. it can target something that's 20 miles away, it was russian made, and one other thing that is worth mentioning is that the russian defend contractor that makes this type of missile system was one of the companies that was just put on notice by the obama for more sanctions. in other words, it would not be able to do business in the west. >> this did not happen in a vacuum. there has been a lot of activity on the border and a lot of accusations flying back and forth between both countries. >> in the last peek, on monday, a military russian made am 26 cargo plane was shot down.

kiev becamed russia, and that aircraft was flying at 21,000 feet. and then on wednesday, a military jet, an s.u. 75 was shot down, and again, kiev blamed pro russian separatist, the pilot was able to eject, so you have the first hand account that this was a medium range missile. and then you have the accusation today, in which the jet miner according to the ukraine ran ministry was shot down by a missile, and the type of missle system that had the capability to do it is this buk muscle system. d. the reason it is a suspect system, is they say you cannot get it across the borders without everybody knowing you have it. and it isn't a group that rag tad rebels. it isn't a surface to aramis sill. >> right, it isn't something you put on your shoulder and then fire it to go after a helicopter. this is has seven or eight on the ground, a command vehicle e a radar

acquisition, big giant trucks that essentially carry the battery system has to be tilted up. so again, it's not easy to hide. it is very easy for spy satellites that the united states has to keep frac on what is on the ground. i would imagine based oen what the pentagon and the national security has been tying attention to. there are probably some folks that are taking a close look right now at what was with going on on the ground, where the data is, and what did the spy satellites detect. earlier this morning. the pine minister reacting to this p p i am shocked by reports that an image plane crashed he went on to say, we are launching an immediate investigation, with with that said, it is one of many investigations right now live at the white house p president air force one with. head to delaware.

>> and the wilmington area, he is there for a previously scheduled event of transportation, and infrastructure later he is scheduled to nigh to new york city for a fund raiser, while en route, his press secretary brief reporters in the travel pool to pool the travels in the back of air force one, we can listen into that here in the briefing room, and here is what josh earnest said, the president is is aware of what has happened he has been briefed. he is directed his aids to be in close touch with with top ukrainian officials and yet the white house is not confirming any of the reported details including the allegation that this plane was with shot down by the missile system. the president spoke with vladimir putin as it happened this morning, and it was not about the plane per se. the subject of the call the intended subject of the call was the sanctions. yet again in response to what is happening in eastern ukraine. russia continues to

destabilize ukraine, all of ukraine, and provoke is the separatist as well as supply the separatist in eastern ukraine. but the kremlin had said that the subject of the plane did come up and now we have confirmation from the white house, that at the end of that discussion, that the president had with vladimir putin, the two men did speak, the white house described it as briefly noting the fact there had been a plane crash in ukraine. mike, are we hearing from the white house at this point in time as to whether or not the president is going to be talking directly about this plane crash on the ground in delaware? wherefore it was at the official event or on the sign lines. that remains to be seen. no word either on whether the president plans to cut short his schedule that fund raiser later on. he does plan to change plans. >> mike, i want to make

sure that the origins of the phone conferring between the white house and russia scroll the sanctions that were slapped on moscow yesterday. by the white house, and then that led to the conversation about the downing of this plane. a conversation that the kremlin had asked to have with president obama. president obama having that discussion. >> departing the white house for delaware today. obviously, this is an on going issue. a point of contention, now, directly retted to what is evidently an unfolding tragedy over the skies. but one of the actually the company that manufactures the buk weapon system was sanctioned by the united states yesterday. so all kinds of cross currents interretted it is all intertwined here.

the incident today, and the on going conflict, very obviously. >> mike at the white house, mike as always, please stand by, we want to turn now to our transportation expert. todd curtis, the basic question that is coming to mind, right off the bat is why would a civilian aircraft fly over what is considered to be by many a war zone. that is up to the airline and the jurisdiction of that air space. >> up to the airline and the pilots onboard, to approve with the plane flies through. >> this is the anniversary of tw 8500. this were with concerns that civilian airline were subject to shorter launch missiles. are there counter measures in place on civilian airliners in the event that a shoulder

launch missile should be fired? and if that is the case should we be looking at something more sophisticated. >> a couple of points. those systems to exist. there are a hand full that do have the systems on their aircraft but because of the expense and the risk, airline as a whole having mandated them, and certainly the f ark hasn't mandated them. aren't designed to reach that altitude, so it is very likely, as the early report, there may be -- this missile strike, might be a medium range type missile, one that is not going to be subject to those kinds of counter measures. >> also, we are understanding that the air space over ukraine was closed to commercial pie hots on july 8th, any indication as this point in time, everybody though this is preliminary, why that communication was not on served?

>> that is unclear at this point, and i am sure this will be part of the on going investigation. because of the location will be done by the ukrainian authorities. i want to ask you as a pilot, how concerned are you when you take controls when you nigh over a conflict zones because there are many of them around the world? well, fifths offer, i have never flown over a conflict zone like that, so i don't have direct experience. if you have a risk, whatever the risk may be. it's a question of balancing the risk, as to why you are flying that mission. in my opinion, the airline thought ahead of time that yes there was some area, this were some early reports of manes being shot at. but it wasn't so dangerous they would not nigh through that zone.

clearly that may have been a bad decision. i want with to turn now to retired army major mike lion as frequent contributor here to al jazeera. and mike, tell me, is it possible that this plane was brought down by one of those shoulder launched rockets that we with see so often, or is this a sophisticated piece of equipment that had to bring it down? it is looking like it is a sophisticated piece of equipment. the gas line, that the russians have takes a trained crew, fd c's, multiple vehicles, radar, intervention in order to do this. the shoulder to fire air fire missile is clearly a weapon of threat, and clearly is something we have to be concerned about. but it wouldn't have gotten up to 30,000 feet. mike, i want to stay away from inning that may

resemble speculation, but also something we may be able to eliminate. which is with what a sophisticated system hike this, is is this something we would see in a separatist group like we are seeing operating in eastern ukraine or is this something that had to either be russia, and with russian knowledge coming across the border or ukrainian? >> it had to be a trained individual. and there's no way given the time that this revolution has been going on, that could have trained any separatist to work this equipment. it's the radar, where to place it, how to shoot nit the direction of where the threats could be coming. this' multiple people that with are involved in order to make it work. it isn't a very simple thing, and we with should have information with regard to where these were with set up on the ground. so it couldn't be as similar as one or two people trying to take other the system and using a fermentalty just to knock down that plane.

when we are talking about this system, what we are trying to do is trying to differentiate between a system as opposed to a shoulder launch missile that might be used by rag tad separatist groups in eastern ukraine. correct? >> that's correct. the should tore fire missiles the grail for example, the fa seven grail, this is a much more sophisticated system. the grizzly system, are much more complicated. those other shoulder held launched missle systems while they remain a threat, are much on the case of when aircraft are flying much hoer. and often away, this is a much more targeted system. a much more targeted system, in order to hit a target from that system. 30,000 feet. >> i want to ask you from a standpoint of proof. the united states has been tracking the russian troop movements ahonk the border.

is this type of the type of equipment they would have seen from space. as we say, we with would be able to see this traveling on road. even when it gets inside a wooded area, it is camouflaged which gives an indication hiding over there. this is a very large footprint, high signature platform that i'm sure they will show in the area. and if so they would likely lead to shooting the mane down. >> . >> edid i lose you, mike? >> you said the damage -- >> yes, the damage that a missle system like this

is sophisticated would cause to a civilian aircraft. >> catastrophic. it would be complete destruction on one hit, the level of inside that system, given the fact that the commercial airline is full of some much gasoline. destruction of the mane. >> frequent contributor here, thank you for being with us. still that plane taking off from amsterdam, have authorities said anything so far about what happened. >> they just have said, basically what they know. when they lost contact with the plane. this of course we already discussed the information coming out of may lashay itself. but right now, everybody hooking to get to the he case, which is very difficult thing to do. it is a contested area.

but a lot of people wondering and wanting to get on the ground as quickly as possible. i don't know if you were listening to our military contributor there, retired army major, very familiar with these systems saying if this was the boot system that was fired. the signature that was seen by satellite are they circles the wagons right now from what you were hearing, and pointing the fingers of blame and if so who is pointing at whom? >> the government is denying it. in that part of the country, the ukrainian air forhas air superiority, so if it's flying, in eastern ukraine, it's probably ukrainian assets. so civilian flight, going

over that, and we with have discussed that i have been listening here, about why was there civilian aircraft, well, that's a very good question, becauses that a very controlled part of the country. as far as air assets. this' been a hot of talk out of nato, about what russia has placed ton border there. so there's a hot of questions. we with from trying to find out as much as possible, by this is in the context of a conflict, that had a lot of different moving parts not least of which, of course, is russian presence and their military assets and the ukrainian military assets in between that, the rebels. and they even have the capability to do something like this. >> phil, stand by, please, we want to turn you to larry core, the assistant secretary of defense, he is life in washington right now, larry, good to see you as always. from your perspective,

what is the fingerprints that we should be looking at concerning this latest catastrophe. >> i think what happened is these very sophisticated air defense weapons fell into the wrong hands. and as you know, there's been a big debate in this country, should we provide these so called man pads to the rebels in syria, and a lot of people said no because use don't know what will happen. i can only surmise that one of the ukrainian rebels overreacted, thought this was another plane coming to attack, and fired this, or maybe a russian person on the border overreacted thinking that this plane was going through what they had hoped was air space that was off hims. i think in the final analysis we will find out. i doubt that president putin told the russians to shoot down airliners. >> so your days at the

pentagon date back to the time of this system it's development, it's launch. is it -- it is interesting that you point out that vladimir putin would not say let's shoot down an airlines, so what is going on right now? well, i think at the pentagon they are trying to find out what did happen. in other words, you get people who are experts systemsdefense systems and say what do you think, what does it look like, let's take a hook at the tapes here. the flight path, when people say it was shot down by a fighter aircraft, i don't think so, because if you were a pay lot and you saw the aircraft coming you would say something. and then to see what weapon it was, what is the origin of this, where did it come from. well there will be tapes of this happening that we

can see from space. and also, politically. as we saw with the unforming gnat loss of the other airliner, the slights will send you some information. and that they would probably be tracking it on air control radar. we know it was about to cross into russian air space. this will show to the russians not just the united states, but the international community, hook, if you don't control these weapons we can't do business with you. we aren't going to fly to moscow any more, we aren't going to come anywhere near this place, so you will pay a big economic price. in terms of the satellite, we aren't talking so much about the

civil aviation, but what you are talking about with the pentagon. would they have any satellite data or tapes of -- never mind the aircraft, but the missle system, would may have a read of the actual launch. >> i -- i don't know where they are telling them to focus on. obviously we are concerned what about is happening in ukraine. to view what is happening. >> how quickly would that go from the pentagon to the white house? we know which unit it was, how quickly can that get to the white house? you know telling them what they know, and when they knew it. so that the president who -- seemed to be on the phone with putin when this happened so.

>> he got on, so he would be able to discuss it. >> i want to ask you a question concerns future nights. the state can't will be doing shortly. should we be expected a state department warning. again, you are ahowed to do it, common sense would tell you this is not the way to go. you would be much better not to go over ukraine, on your way to kuala lumpur, wherever you are going from. amsterdam, yeah, again, you wonder what were they thinking. i know you can save a few dollars in fuel, but you are increasing your risk. and you doing a cot benefit, should have told you to stay away from this. marly because we know that they fired on a ukrainian fight jet. is larry, i apologize for

being so cordial, but we have never even other for the better part of two decades. lisa stark who is on the phone, lisa, you are an expert in all things aviation, what what are you hearing about this crash? >> it's very unlikely, there's very few thins that will bring a plane down at that state of flight. it has to be something catastrophic. if it was a missile, dell, there will be tell tell signs on the metal, on the debris, this will be some pitting, some streaking the metal can be bent in a certain way. we know all this. hunter flight, which ironically went down on this very day. off the coast, the initial thought is that an initial had brought

down that plane. was bent and hook at the debris itself, they did not find those tell tail signs. so if there is debris they can find, and likely there will be debris they can find, there will be signs that would point toward as missile strike. 24 kind of a strike, they will be looking at that, and the data recorder. we don't believe that the ukrainian air space was entirely closed. the faa had issue add warning to u.s. air carriers to avoided for example the crimea region, and part of the ukrainian air space, but for example, we are now hearing from the airline today, saying the ukrainian air space was not closed. but now as a precaution,

it is going to give that air space a wide berth after this incident today. so they are going to bring up their manes and i am sure many many other airline obviously will be taking the same actions. right now we don't know for sure what brought this down. both as your experts have said, the satellite, what they can learn from that, and al from the debris itself. >> we were doing some research here. 1983, the downing of korean airline 007 that was by a soviet missile at the time. when you talk to pilots after the flight 800, how concerned were they about i guess the different world that we now find ourselves living in. >> as your experts have

said it doesn't look like that's what we with would be talking about here. there were numerous studies. anti-missle defense systems on civilian aircraft, military planes obviously have them. there was a lot of talk about that many years spent studying this issue. ultimately it was decided not to go that rout. although it is still an open question, whether that could happen in the future. the this plane was with nighing at that altitude, is probably wasn't that sort of a missle. so pilots were with differently concerned about it, and there was definitely a lot of talk about it after twa, but no move to go ahead and require these systems.

what is going on right now inside the aviation industry. >> well, one part of the industry that's probably to take very quick changes is the insurance agency. those companies that insure aircraft will say don't fly anywhere near here right now. and todd, i am sorry my producer was talking to you, you say the insurance industry will look at changes any other changes as far as pilots are concerned? >> well, certainly, pilots whoever they may be flying for will be looking at their maps talking with their bosses and saying look, we think in our preponderance this is too risky. the other thing that so many people are talking about is malaysian airline. this year, can an airline recover from something so catastrophic happening so close back to backpack to back incidents.

that mane is still missing and now there is this. >> this is no input from the malaysian airline that causes this. for example, was this a decision process in the airline that in retrospect may have been seen to have been too risky. if that was with the case, maybe they will have a hard time recovering. >> the video that is coming in, we are getting a frickele from video, and one video we just saw, you can can see some of the debris, you can see the plume of smoke, and then you see debris falling literally straight down. what would that indicate to you in terms of a catastrophic event, or something gradual. >> it would with say to me there was inflight break up. whether it happened immediately at the point of impact, or whether the airport fell apart at some point in the path. th