>> al jazeera america presents >> just because you're pregnant, don't mean you're life's ended. >> 15 stories one incredible journey edge of eighteen coming september only on al jazeera america breaking news on two major stories with global implicati s implications. israel starts a ground invasion of gaza. and a malaysia airlines shot down over ukraine. what does it mean for the standoff over ukraine and russia.

welcome to "consider this". we'll get to israel launching a ground invasion into the gaza strip in a moment. we begin with a jumbo jetliner shot down over wore torn eastern ukraine. here is the latest, 298 passengers and crew on the flight. u.s. intelligence officials have evidence that it was shot by a surface to air missile. military in intelligence analysts are using computers and other sensors to pin down the missile's point of origin. all parties involved - the ukranian government, pro-russian separatists are denying shooting down the flight. which was on route to kuala lumpur from amsterdam. families searched for answers, and crews searched for wreckage and said no survivors were found

in the wheat fields near the border. >> reporter: this is the tail section of the boeing 777, the flight from amsterdam to kuala lumpur. investigation has not started yet. we arrived several hours ago. parts of the plane were on fire. there are four debris areas. this is one big chunk. there are two other chunks a couple of hundred metres from where i am. remains, people's objects that they brought on the plane. tourist books. there's a chunk of the fuselage. the landing gear and the tyres. now the next steps - what will happen? the investigation - local authorities, separatist leaders, say they'll allow international investigators to come in and go through the wreckage and start the investigation. they say now, for the time being, they are not going to allow ukranian officials in. this is the part of eastern ukraine that saw serious fighting over the last several

weeks. in the last week two other aircrafts were shot, ukranian air force shot down. a big question and a broader issue - who has been firing the missiles, who trained and supplied the weapons. they are the answers that will have to be made. now, in the morning, and just a couple of hours when the sun comes up, the first step will be to take the remains of 295 people out of the fields in eastern ukraine. >> al jazeera's scott heidler. >> joining me from our studio in washington d.c. is lisa stark, a long-time aviation reporter. good to see you. a lot of people heard the news and heard why is a commercial airliner flying over a disputed area, a war zone, if you will? >> well, that was a question that has been asked and is being asked still. we should mention that this plane was not in a restricted area. it was flying in an area that it was allowed to fly in.

there were some restrictions of air space in that area. the ukranian government requested that no commercial planes fly below 32,000 feet. this plane was at 33,000 feet. that was considered safe, obviously. the plane was in an area where it was allowed to be. that, of course, has now ended. no planes are flying through that area as of this evening. >> is that by regulation. i know the f.a.a. said no u.s. airliners are flying through there, there weren't really any flying there anywhere. through the course of sit, air france, turkish airlines, and others saying they are not getting involved. is that because the airlines said so or is there a flight restriction? >> there's a bit of both. the airlines made a decision to avoid the area. what happened, as well as the ukranian government made a request that there be a flight restriction up to any altitude in the area, and the european

aviation authorities put it into effect and re-routed planes. in addition, the federal aviation made an announcement that u.s. airplanes would not fly in the area. this puts it on the record. a lot of different pieces in motions. the bottom line is no commercial planes will go through the area. >> i didn't know people could have missile launchers and they may be in lots of people's hands. they are russian made but a lot of people use next. i spoke to the former chief of the nats national transportation safety board, and she thinks there'll ba re-evaluation of routes. usually airlines take efficient routes using less fuel, but maybe other parts of the world we'll have to look at. >> absolutely. the big concern is not the

surface to air missiles but the shoulder-fired missiles taking out planes to 11,000 feet. there's concerns with planes taking off and landing, whether they could be vul ner ail. that is the main -- vulnerable. that is the main focus. this will shift. there'll be a re-evaluation to take at look at whether there might be other areas where jet liners are vulnerable. >> you should remember this is a rare occurrence. one is too many, but there will no doubt be some sort of re-evaluation. >> we need to look at the investigation, how it's going. there are reports that because it may have been russian separatists, someone may have got the black box and taken it to russia. it's not confirmed. there's a question about the integrity of the area, it's a disputed area. what will happen with the investigation, in terms of securing the area and getting autumn evidence.

>> a lot of questions. investigators would like to be in there. it is very critical to secure the airline, to find the black boxes, locate them, as you said, there were some reports saying they were found, that was disputed. there's no negotiation as to what happened to the boxes at this point. it's important for the families to get in and remove the body, quite frankly. ukraine is promising a full and open investigation, but they don't control the area, the rebels do. it will take some negotiation and talk to try to make this move forward. there has been international calls to make that happen very, very quickly. >> thank you for your work on this. we'll keep in touch with you on this. lisa stark, thank you for joining us. more on the downed airliner coming up. now the latest gone the gaza-israeli crisis. israeli tanks have entered gaza.

gaza is being hit which air strikes and gun fire. it's been called a limited action aimed to destroy tunnels between gaza and israel, but there's no limit how long what they call operation protective edge may take. a defiant hamas warned israel the invasion will have dreadful consequences. let's go to gaza and nick schifrin, al jazeera correspondent. we have been in touch with you on this all day. what is happening? can you confirm reports that israeli tanks have entered gaza? >> we have reports from residents in the north-east, that corner right there, that there have been tanks. right along the border. and what we see a lot of, we have seen a lot of flares. that's what the israeli troops

move in. some indication that they are moving in from the north and the east. there are reports there's amphibious landings and troops. definitely there is a sense that they are coming in from the west, east, and north as well. they do say that their operation is limited and in a conversation with secretary of state john kerry, prime minister binyamin netanyahu was saying that the goal is for the tunnels. but you speak to other israeli officials, and they say that the goal is to demill tarrize the entire gaza strip. that's not about tunnels or rockets, it's about an invasion that will take a long time if israel is serious about going through with that. now, to the u.s., israel's promising that this is only about tunnels on the border. >> let's talk about the warnings. israel announced it was going in, and warned gazans in the area that are going be under scrutiny, to get out, to

evacuate. they have used pamphlets to do that. what happens then. do gazans leave where they are. where do they go. do they have escape routes? >> yes, this is really important to talk about, because a lot of people here describe gaza as a prison. there's nowhere to go. you can't go that way, that's israel. that way is israel. there's a wall around gaza. egypt is that way, they blocked the route and that is the mediterranean sea. there's nowhere to go. when the israelis call people or send text messages or drop leaflets, a lot of residents go where am i going. they go here, 2-3 miles south to gaza city. a lot of the rocket launchers are embedded within residential areas, and israel has dropped maybe 1600, 1700 strikes into gaza so far in the last 10 days,

and many of the wounded, a third of those killed have been women and children, as israel tries to take pains to reduce fillian casualties, it's targetting people, right around people. that is why you see a huge number of women, children, elderly outer or injured in the strikes because the residence say they have nowhere to go to escape the barrage. >> thank you for the reporting much coming up, perspective from both sides. israel and hamas. and also - what about the children caught in the middle of the fighting. we talk about special relief we talk about special relief efforts under [ grunting ]

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missile. and the invasion of gaza by israel. after ten days of attacks, more missiles pounded gaz didda. israeli tanks entered gaza in force. israeli officials say their forces will destroy tunnels. they describe the invasion as limited and targeted. they warn no time limit has been imposed. for more, they are joined from tel aviv. good to see you. thank you for being with us. let me ask you first, what a limited invasion entails. what does that mean? >> a limited invasion means the prime minister of israel has instructed the military to go in directed at the terror tunnels.

hamas built an infrastructure of tunnels, functioning as a command and control center and a logistical point from which to set out to attack civilians in u.s. rail. yester -- israel. we saw the introduction of hamas troops overland into israel through the tunnels. the incursion is aimed at taking party, does mannedling the infrastructure. >> we -- dismantling the infrastructure. >> we heard from nick schifrin - they have reports of tanks and grouped troops -- ground troops further into gaza than one would presume the tunnels are. are you going further into gaza? is that true? >> we are going into gaza as far as necessary at this point in order to address the

infrastructure of the terror tunnels. some are going a few kilometres long. in the past 10 days we targeted carefully hundreds of launch sites, weapons factories, storage sites and now is the time following yesterdays troops going through the tunnels. >> nick was commenting. some of the launch pads are in residential area, and in order to get that people are getting killed. we now understand 245 palestinians have been killed. according to the united nations, half of them are women and children. how do you deal with this. >> this is the tragedy that has been brought down, on all of us, by hamas, dragging us into a conflict we didn't want to be

in. refused to accept them, the ceasefire proposals. now, or pretty much every israelis are thinking to themselves, what happens when hamas get their hands on surface to air missiles. we are talking of the modern manifestation. we are talking about democracy, abiding by the rules and doing everything we can to avoid civilians casualties, and those on other sides acting out of uniform, both of which are law crimes, this is a difficult issue, we'll do what we can to avoid civilian casualties, war is a terrible thing, an ugly place to be. >> thank you for joining us. paul is the deputy spokesperson for the israeli foreign affairs ministry, joining me from tel

aviv. i'm joined by an hamas spokesperson on the phone now. israeli officials say, you heard them say, this is a limited operation intended to destroy tunnels between gaza and israel. they said there were attempts yesterday to go through the tunnels and launch a raid into israel. what is your response to that? >> what they are doing is a clear threat about what they are doing. they are saying that they will [ inaudible ] for 11 days they were bombing children and women, enjoyment women and children. they bombed a hospital. they are claiming they are attacking the tunnels, in fact, they are making pressure on the civilians, because they want to

get rid of the people, the palestinian people. it's now a war crime. speaker trying to cover that. >> why are hamas rocket launch pads in the midst of residential areas in gaza. >> well, in fact, no one knows where is the rocket. and how they are launched and from where. in 2012 the israelis bombed a school and claimed hamas was launching rockets from there and ended in a rockets. today they are bombing houses. hamas is launching rockets into the houses. but, in fact, no one said that a

rocket launcher [ inaudible ] killed among the civilians as they were attacking militants. they were supposed to find militants among the civilians all that they have kids and women. so they are claiming that, but they don't show any attack. they claim that it's hamas. they didn't show anything. then they said people were killed. >> let me ask you about this: there has been ceasefire proposals on the table thursday morning began with a ceasefire that was supposed to last a few hours to get aid into gaza, apparently rockets went from gaz e into israel. are -- gaza into israel.

are there terms you would accept, to stop the hostilities, preventan gazans from dying. at some point will you not get pressure from your own people to say we are dying at at fast rate, we need to find a solution. >> [ inaudible ] there was a ceasefire in 2012. the israelis [ inaudible ] and killed in the first wave of the attack 11 civilians. two, there was no peace [ inaudible ] there was hamas. no one discussed if there was [ inaudible ] the head of the p l.a. and the pa. how come to say that there was a ceasefire proposal. it wasn't.

now we have political and a third peace fire for both sides. they are trying to push hard. three, we protest for our own people and show the israelis, that they can't have security unless they give the palestinian people the security we should have. [ inaudible ] oppressed all the time while living under a system, which is coming close. >> spokesperson for hamas. thank you for joining us. joining us from gaza. for a different perspective. i'm joined via skype. the chief of unicef's field off.

power was out earlier all over gaza, as far as we could determine. what is the situation like where you are now? did you lose power, is there power restored? >> well, this is one of the privileges of using in the u.n. building, in my office, we do have backup power. for the vast majority of the gaz jps, well over -- gazans, well over 50% have no access to water or electricity. this is compounding a pre-existing problem that was there before. we are seeing major concerns in the areas of child application. just yesterday i visited the surviving three boys from that terrible attack on the beach, the day before they are in utter anguish over what happened. as are their family. i met with a 75-year-old

grandmother who lost 18 members of her family. her sons, grandchildren. a 4-year-old was the only surviving family member with her father, losing her mother and siblings by a direct attack. i can't say enough about the immense suffering that children and their families are experiencing right now here. >> what can unicef, other aid agencies, what can anybody do at this point to deal with the fact that children, women, are getting into the - the cross-hairs of this dispute? >> well one of the most important things we are doing is we are documenting all of what is happening. we are the eyes and ears of the united nations on the ground. beyond that, there are immediate needs for psychological support for children that unicef is

providing. we are working with the water authorities to repair and restore water. there's a major risk of cross-contamination of sewerage and water lines at the moment that is impacting 900,000 people in gaza. i, myself, visited two days ago the main sewage pumping station and plan and water wells that had been hit, these are public infrastructures now damned. they are going to require not only millions to repair them, but we are looking at options of water tankering. safe water that juney self will deliver. trying to get their technicians

safely into doing the most urgent repairs required. the tef station is extreme. gaza is an urban population. you ask where can people go, why are they mixed in with the military. the fact of the matter is this strip of land can be by land, air and see. there's nowhere to go. there's 1.8 million people in gaza. >> this is what nick schifrin was telling us, that they get the leaflet, the calls and the text messages, it's a lot of people in a small space, and they don't have anywhere to escape to. thank you for joining us. we'll stay on the story. we'll move back to the other major story, a malaysian air flight shot down. we'll check the diplomatic fall out and how it will impact a

tense standoff between russia and ukraine. >> in the investigation, why the type of missile and the plane's altitude can help to zero in. later we'll get context of looking at downed planes office, and the investigations that followed.

welcome back. ali velshi in for antonio mora. 298 people were killed when a malaysian airlines flight went down over eastern ukraine, travelling from amsterdam to kuala lumpur. u.s. intelligence confirmed to al jazeera that it was shot down by a surface to air missile. 33,000 feet in the air. the origin of the missile is not conclusive. ukranian president labelled it an act of terrorism and called for an international investigation. it went down in an area

controlled by pro-russian separatist fighters. with the conflit in the ukraine -- conflict in ukraine stretching back to late feb, the question is what can diplomacy do to end the conflict. i spoke to a canadian parliamentarian and journalist who wrote about the crisis in ukraine, which is the land of her ancestors, about what the u.s. and european union should do next. >> it's a lawless region, and one of the world's great powers, have been aiding and abetting that lawlessness. na is the opposite of what -- that is the opposite of what mature global countries should do. it seems to me the likely scenario is this was a make, an accident. >> what is the best course of action. there's hot spots around the world. we think the best thing to do is have a ceasefire or a disarming

of people. we saw the consequences in syria and i can, of people funnelling weapons, and they get out of control. it's fine while they do your bidding, but what would you say as a legislator, what would you encourage the ukrainians and russians to do immediately. >> and us. i think the sanctions that the u.s. announced yesterday were an important step. it's time to tighten those further and bring the rest of the international community, especially europe. >> how does the u.s. and the west achieve that. europe is worried about its natural gas supplies and energy supplies. they are rhettize ept to -- reticent to join the united states with these sanctions. >> arguments that people have been making is it's short-sighted to look at your

short-term losses. if you allow the situation to carry on, this will endanger the security of everyone first and forecoast europeans, and tragically this shooting down of the passenger plane, which, after all, left from the netherlands, is absolute proof of that. this is a conflict which is chiefly, of course, about ukraine, but which is causing europe's overall security to be diminished. that is why europe needs to act. the second thing to bear in mind is this is a made in russia conflict. it is essential for the international community, for the west, for western business to be very clear that russia must be made to understand in no uncertain terms that this is unacceptable behaviour. i think the good news is we have seen from russia and vladimir putin, a willingness to push and provoke, but in covert - at

least seemingly indirect way, and i think that, you know, once that disguise is removed. once we say that's not ghood enough -- good enough, we had nothing to do with them... >> you have to pull the support. >> that is an achievable out come. not costly for the west, compared to other conflicts you talk about, and it will be important to take a clear line and press with the economic sanctions. we have seen russia behaving with less direct aggression. >> because of the sanctions. >> i believe because of the sanctions. less than we saw in crimea. >> for more on what dip loam as yea can do, let's -- diplomacy can do let's bring in ambassador william courtney, former ambassador to crimea and

georgia. we have a member of the council on foreign relations here also. welcome to you both. ambassador. you were involved in the corian airlines flight 007 shot down in "93. it is rare for a passenger airline to be shot down. what is your thought? >> yes, true. at that time it was a surprise. it turned out of investigation that the soviet pilot thought he was shooting an american spy craft. and similar in "88, a u.s. war ship shot a ukranian aircraft. it thought it was approaching the warship. risk of area is high. >> no kidding. nina, you heard christian say

she doesn't believe the russians - if you assume in this came from russian separatists, she doesn't believe russians would support the idea that anyone shoot down a passenger plane. >> absolutely. the russians were incensed. i think vladimir putin spoke, the last of all before leaders of the countries involved. president obama spoke, president petro porashenko went first, and the prime minister of malaysia, and vladimir putin afterwards. at the same time, i think they haven't decided how they'll deal with it. vladimir putin blames you crane. i think it's disorganised and gunning hoe people. whoever the battalion soldier -

they were giving the order for aircraft... >> there were military aircraft shot down. we don't like it, but that's war, that's battles, once you get a situation like this, it takes - it elevates it to a new level. christian says she's optimistic that at this point everyone says hold on a second, we can't run a proxy war, because militaries do things a certain way, and renault gads another. >> if it turns out that the rebels shot down the plane and indications suggest that one rebel leader bragged on a russian version of facebook that the rebels did this, but after it turned out it was a passenger plane, he took off the boast from the website, the social networking site. so it's quite possible that the

rebels had access to equipment, air defense equipment too sophisticated for them to handle. and they, for example, mistook a passenger flight and realised what the schedules were, did not understand how to look for transponder signals and made a mistake. >> it's a sophisticated unit. this is not - we have come the long way from shoulder-fired rockets taking down helicopters in afghanistan. this comes after the new round of elevated sanctions yesterday. is this effective. the sanctions are designed not to hit the russian populous and create a situation where there's greater aminos. a comment was made that the sanctions are evil and could push relations between russia and the states supporting the sanctions back to cold war levels. >> if we haven't been pushed back already. we have been at that level before.

that is talk. prime minister does talk a lot of evil means nothing. what does it mean? evil for the russians to meddle in ukrainian and hamper its independence. this is a conversation. at the same time vladimir putin, the president, decided it's important to talk to president obama, and talk to him about the sanction, and i think actually from the relationship stand point this was a nightmare scenario that happened at the time when vladimir putin and obama were having a conversation about sanctions and perhaps coming up with a conclusion. we'll see what's. we'll see whether vladimir putin didss that it's -- decides that it is scary, because it's not just a global conflict, but people with nothing to do with the crisis or didn't know about the crisis. he'll try to de-escalate. we know the kremlin well enough to know they can take a tough

stance, let's he how we will escalate to freak everyone out more. >> this is a bit of a tricky situation, ambassador, because most of the west would have been allied in the sanctions. europe is reticent. we have another group not wanting to see gas supplies cut off. we do not have a unified space from the west to deal with this. where does it go diplomatically. >> this, again, is proof that russian-backed separatists shot down the air cast, if it is proof of that, this could be transformative in europe, causing them to focus on short-term or medium-termed interests. the reel issue is to supply military support to ukraine. which has been modest, so ukraine can defeat the rebels.

if that doesn't happen, another passenger aircraft can be shot down in future. if that happened the west would be blamed for not doing more with ukraine for closing the matters. >> is there a risk doing what the ambassador says? >> i think that's the story. the european union will be very afraid. that got out of vladimir putin's control. they see he kont control it. they may -- cannot control it. they may agree with more sanctions. thank you for joining us. inside, the logistics of the attacks, and what clues we can clean. later, why was the flight going over a war-torn region like eastern ukraine in the first place.

we are back with two major breaking news stories, more on ukraine in a moment. here is the latest from the middle east. israel's ground invasion against hamas is under way. tanks led the way into the northern border. also targeted were tunnels used by hamas to infiltrate israel. reporters and residence in gaza relayed stories of heavy fighting from the ground and air and naval gun boats. dozens of infantry artillery units are involved.

50,000 reservists from israel have been called up. military action follows 10 days of an awar aware air war. >> u.s. intelligence confirmed into a missile shot down the plane, it can provide hints as to who was responsibility. let's look at the logistic and technology with mike lyons, a retired army major, and chri christopher harmer, a u.s. analyst from the institute of the study of war. thank you both for being with us. the missile that we are talking about, it's a rooushan made system. a lot of people use it. doesn't mean russia fired it. putin denied responsibility. the state department accused the country of arming those rebels

in that part of ukraine. who has access to these missiles. >> the rebels would have access to the rebel system. they may have stolen one from the government a couple of weeks ago. there's russian fingerprints all over this. it's something the government would want to get to. it would give the rebels confidence. >> what clues does the alt tube and the missile give us to narrow down the responsibility of who is responsibility. you can see at this altitude there's no way it was a shoulder fired air missile, the best tops at 18,000 feet. 30,000 feet, we are talking

about a medium range medium altitude, and this mice ill fits into that category. >> keep the shot up. i'll ask the director to let you see this. this is not a shoulder to air missile il, this is a sophisticated unit. you believe who fired it needed to be trained, and that's giving you doubts as to who - it can't be a renault gayed. >> no, it can't. there had to be russian advisors, someone there supporting it. it had to be multiple people. it's a crew, a fire directions center. it may be contained in one vehicle, but the launch systems, there's not instructions on the walls of this complicated vehicle to allow someone to fire and forget. >> let's talk about that.

military planes don't fly at 24,000 peat. there are talks that it could be mistaken for a military jet. a military jet makes no effort to conceal itself, to a military jet designed to evade radar. is it possible someone could have thought they were shooting a military plane? >> i don't think so. i think based on the speed, the distance it looks like where it crashed. it tracked for a while and had ifs transponder capability. it was ignored as the individuals pulled the trigger. >> do you agree there could be a mistake, chris? >> it's entirely possible to mistake. we have examples of it. the best sophisticated radar system is the u.s. navy spy on the destroyers and cruisers. in 1988 a u.s. navy shit shot an

iranian airbecause because they thought it was an iranian attack aircraft. it was an ascending climbing profile. the ship operators misinterpreted the data saying it was diving at them. if you were operating the system in an advanced set of circumstances, if you are operating within within integrated control structure, you need advance training. if you are talking about a couple of guys running an insurgency, they don't need much training of the getting a missile off is not hard. correctly identifying an aircraft is hard. i think they misidentified the aircraft. they shat and realised they made a mistake. it happened in 1988 with us u.s. navy. after we shot it we realised we shot the wrong aircraft.

>> this is the problem with insurgencies versus militaries. if it's a military with a relationship, something goes wrong, someone can call someone saying "this is a make, don't act on it. we don't know who launched the missile. >> no, but they had enough confidence to pull the treger. if they were a -- trigger. there's a lot of reasons why i believe they knew what they were doing. they had to know where to point it. it's not a fire and forget system. they had time to track it. given what was going on, the pressure in the unit. i think they decided to do it on purpose. >> it's interesting topic. hope fully we'll get to the end of this mystery. >> mike and harmer is a retired commander at the institute for the study of law. the flight mm-hmm 17 crash has taken off on social media.

i'm joined by harmeli aregawi. what is happening in the digital realm. we are getting more of our information from social media than before. >> that's right. between gaza and this flight the internet was swarming. >> tragedies are sweeted. the world doesn't wait for press conferences, they get information on social media. malaysia airlines tweeted about losing the craft. and details on facebook. they turned the page and website grey to honour the victims. >> immediately hash tags trended globally. an advantage or disadvantage is unfiltered life stream graphic images and video. some re-tweeted photos of the passenger's dead bodies and torn

limes. >> many took image saying:. >> it's so easy to hit retweet. i don't think people realise the loed ones may come -- loved ones may come across the photos. >> another thing is an outpouring of support. many calling for prayer. vigils were held at the embassy in kiev. the majority of those on the flight were dutch. many members gathered at kuala lumpur where the flight was scheduled to land. relatives were coming home. . >> this is eerie, a dutch passenger on the flight posted this photo of the plane saying:. >> that photo has been shared more than 14,000 times on

facebook. that one hit home. >> i saw that earlier. >> that's a whole different category. it is interesting in our realm we were looking for the information on twitter. you knew something happened, the government posted information or other certain media. thank you to both of you. >> this is not the first time an airliner has gone down. clues for this investigation from those of the past.

presents... holy money only on al jazeera america so earlier today, some finger pointing by the

russian president over this tragedy. vladimir putin said it would never have happened if there was peace in ukraine, so he blamed ukraine for what happened here today. let's bring in glen welcome back, we are following two major stories. shot down, the investigation into the crash of malaysia airlines crash 17, reaction from moscow to washington. and the impact on the confrilent in ukraine. all that coming up up "consider this". see you then. pass ja if it turns out that malaysia airlines flight mh17 was shot down it would be rare, but it has happened before.

including two over russia. >> reporter: september 1984 corian airlines 007 originating in new york stopped in anchorage and was on to seoul when it trayed into soviet air space, a jet fired two air to air missiles, shooting down, killing 269 people on board. the soviets refused to admit the incident but said later that it believed the corian airliner was a spy plain. >> i'm coming before you in relation to the korean airliner. the attack by the soviet against an unarmed passenger claim. this crime against humanity must never be forgotten here or throughout the world. >> president regan reminded men's of or korean airlines flight 902 from paris to seoul

veered into soviet airspace. the soviets opened fire, and the plane was forced to land on a frozen lake. two passengers were killed. >> in july 1988 the u.s. behind the downing of iran air flight 655, killing 695 penninger and crew -- passengers and crew. a u.s. s ship was in the gulf. rainon and american ships changed gun fire. flight 665 took off. the u.s. mistook it for a fighter jet. it was called an international crime. for more, let's bring in rob et gren yea from washington d.c., a former director from the counterterrorism sector. we heard the historical context from mary's report, early in the investigation. we heard this earlier, and

ambassador william courtenay. this has added massive geopolitical implications to what we were treating as a regional conflict. >> when you look at this, it doesn't change the objective circumstances. it doesn't change the strategic challenge to europe. what it changes is the public relations atmosphere around the incident. it changes the way people look at this. politicians in europe and elsewhere have to be mindful of the way their people and press view the situation. they'll be compelled to do something about this. >> is there a job for the u.s. is there a job for the c.i.a., will they do something with respect to this. is this a typical investigation that will be handled. i understand that the vice president offered help by the ntsb to the ukrainians. what is the c.i.a. doing, do you

think? >> i think the c.i.a. has been actively engaged. there's things that the intelligence communicate can contribute and may have contributed materially. there's a great deal that can be done with satellites, with intercepts and other forms of intelligence, and we are seeing confidence on the part of u.s. officials. mab of whom are -- many of whom are speaking anonymously that this was a missile launch and that it brought down the aircraft. >> as we move to the next phase, if, as we hope, competent international authorities has access to the aircraft and debris, there'll be an amount of forensic investigative work to be done. that is different, and that is what will enable us to get our arms around this, determining what will happen. >> what are the logical next steps. one of the problems here is this is not a secure area. we have heard reports someone took the black box out and took

it to russia, we don't know if it's true. we heard the malaysian prime minister appealing for no one to mess with the site to a proper investigation can take place. that complicates things, doesn't it? >> yes, under the best of circumstances it complicates things. if, in fact, it was pro-russian separatists in eastern ukraine responsible for this, and all of the katers point in that direction, they'll have an active center in finding a way to yacht cooperate. they'll have things to hide, as may the russians, who may provide the weaponry and the training, that was misused probably as a result of an accident. we could see a lot of action on the part of the russians, and eastern ukraine. >> you were the director of the c.i.a. counterterrorism unit. who have did this, maybe it was

a make, but it was done and caused harm to people, and caused fear and inplict terror. are these terrorists. i'm not sure i would record this as an impressional act of terrorism, this shooting down of the aircraft. the definition of tore or terrorism is the use of violence against noncombat and for a political purpose. i am not sure that it will match up to that criteria, these are early days. it's a little bit of an unfair question, but worth figuring out as we figure out who did this, what we think of them and what they denneded intended. >> robert grannier, a contributor for al jazeera.

that's all for now, but the conversation conditions on the website or facebook or google+ or on twitter at aj consider this. thank you for joining us this evening, see you next time. israel's invasion of gaza under way now. what the major turning point means for the mid east crisis, and the crash of malaysia airlines flight mh17. we are covering both stories with our correspondents on the scene, live reports and the latest details. tonight an al jazeera special report. >> good evening, i'm john seigenthaler in new york. it's friday morning, 6am in ukraine and