even though they cost more than $200 million to build, the three lines are already delivering benefits. harassed whitbeck, al jazeera, la paz, bolivia. >> i want to remind you to keep up-to-date by logging on to our website, aljazeera.com. hi, i'm lisa fletcher, and you are in the "stream." if you buy avocados, chances are you are supporting a mexican drug cartel. we'll break down how one of america's favorite fruits is green gold for organized crime. ♪ our digital producer wajahat ali is here, and bringing in all of your live feedback through

the show. waj most of our avocados we buy cartel. >> yeah, and most people had no idea this was happening: and finally on facebook: >> we'll talk about what consumers can do. we have seen it all over twitter today. i love avocados, what do i do? >> yeah. >> we'll have thoughts on that. cocaine, heroin, and now avocados. drug cartels are looking for new days to make money. now in the western mexico state

they are finding that money really does grow on trees. avocados are more lucrative than marijuana, and that has the violent cartel tightening its grip. they are reportedly skimming profits from avocado growers. a move criticized by a rival cartel. >> the citizens are starting to take matters into their own hands, forming militia groups to protect local growers, the military has always stepped in, but it seems to have little effect on farmers and communities devastated by what are being dubbed blood avocados. joining us is a journalist who recently investigated how the

cartel is tapping into the industry. and joined by skype is a professional of organizational behavior. and the author of the last narco. he has been covering the drug war for about 60 years now. welcome everyone. if this is your first time tuning in. we use online technologies that allow us to expand our reach and bring very unique voices into the conversation. explain the cartel's link into the avocado industry. how did they infiltrate everything seemingly. >> well, they first started going to a state institution that regulates the exportation of avocados, so basically every farmer that wants to export avocados needs to register with them, and register how much land

they own and how much they are trying to export, et cetera. so the cartel moved in and started bribing or threatening people within the institution to hand over the lists with all of the information. so they got ahold of extremely detailed information on what everybody had and tried to export, so they knew exactly how much to extort from everyone. >> rodrigo, you have friends who have been victimized by the cartels. talk about the tactics that the cartels are using and the degree of violence that's happening down there. >> so the -- first of all thanks so much for having me on the show. i really appreciate it. the cartel are an organization that has been careful to brand itself as part of the community, and i use the label that they frame themselves to be a social enterprise. and so the way -- it's not that

they go to the farmers and they start with violence. they have kind of a soft touch approach, where they first sort of say, my boss wants to talk to you, they bring them out, and they suggest that maybe they want to contribute a fee for their own protection and for the protection of the state. they have always framed themselves as protectors of the people. so it's not like they come in with a gun and point it at the head and say give me money from your exports. they say you should pay a protection fee because the state is sa dangerous place, and we wouldn't want anything to happen to you. so that's kind of your strategy, and if you refuse, then they'll take you out for some time to give you some time to think about the proposition, and if you refuse again, then you might appear dead sometime. >> or members of your family. i was reading reports earlier

today that kids have been kidnapped and disappeared. >> correct. >> first jan, i want to read this quote from your article: that's an avocado farmer. john than says drug war: and malcolm you are an expert on the mexican drug cartels. talk to us specifically about this cartel. should we be treating them as a legitimate business using illegitimate funds? >> no, i think you should treat

them as an illegitimate business using illegitimate funds. it is important to remember the mo, the modus operandi from this cartel from what i gather seems to be not that different from other drug cartels that have risen in the past. whether it be the late '80s, or the la familia, their businesses -- they look for any advantages they can have over the go by, you know, and the authorities, by donating to the people, employing people, exploiting people at the same time. but sometimes that extorsion effectively comes with benefits, and, you know, you looking at a society -- you know, mexico is

pretty used to institutional corruption, whether it be a cop bribing you, or -- or, you know, a member of the cartel bribing you for your own safety, you know, for your prosperity. it's not that new of business model basically in my opinion. >> jan is this more than exer to to -- extortion. are they essentially buying the avocado farms? >> my understanding is they are. they employ lawyers and notaries, and they said either i bribe you and you collaborate with me, or i kid nap and kill you or kill one of your family members. and they come up to them and use these lawyers and notaries to forge papers to illegally buy up avocado plantations. and one of the farmers there

mentioned that up to 50% of the avocado farms in one area, a small rural city a little bit to the south of the capitol is now cartel. >> and if you think about that -- malcolm, i think that is a divergence from traditional modus opran day -- opran die, i think what they have found, to have access to avocados, and they have done it for other things too, that they can then trade in the market for illegal goods, and i think that helps them solve some of the issues with sort of tightening laws for money laundering and these types divergence.

>> no doubt, and we'll get into a little more in the show. hang on just a second. i'm going to hit a break, and we'll come right back to the conversation i promise. the u.s. spends about a billion dollars on avocados every year, so what is the most effective way to apply pressure on mexico to control its cartels?

>> i'm ali velshi, the news has become this thing where you talk to experts about people, and al jazeera has really tried to talk to people, about their stories. we are not meant to be your first choice for entertainment. we are ment to be your first choice for the news. ♪

>> we're back. we're breaking down how a mexican drug cartel has infiltrated the avocado industry. that was a very impassioned plea we just heard, what is our responsibility in all of this? >> i think it's important to first recognize that the origin of criminal organizations and sort of what they do is primarily these are organizations that are trying to serve a demand, and most of the -- these organizations, the most powerful ones in mexico have become so powerful because the amazing demand for illegal drugs that exist in the u.s., and just the amazing resources that comes from the high margins of serving that market, and that's what has created the

incentives to become as sophisticated as they have, and has created resources for them to become as powerful and as well armed as they are today. so the origins are all because of demand for illegal product. >> okay. so -- got it u.s. needs to control its drug consumption to control the drug cartels. but the war on drugs has been largely ineffective for decades. let's talk specifically about avocados. consumers are saying does this mean i should stop buying these avocados? >> my take is please do not stop buying avocados, if what you care about is the welfare of farmers in mexico, there's just no good that can come from boycotting avocados. because you have to understand the farmers have no control over what they decide to do with their avocados. and if they are extorting a fee

from them, that does not mean you can help the farmers or citizens of mexico improve their avocados. >> malcolm what do you think is the most effective way for the u.s. and global citizens to have an impact on the cartels would penalizing the farmers who have already been victimized? >> i think something rodrigo brought up about this being a new business pl-- model, and i think was right, is there is something -- how do i say this without coming across as horrible? but there's something positive -- there's something positive about the idea of blood avocados in that we have noticed over the years -- okay, drugger ratification and sort of new crop for marijuana or open um in columbia and afghanistan

replacing the crops has largely failed in part because the money is not there. and the terrain is difficult. it's ripe terrain for certain crops. so what we have seen when you try to replace -- or get the farmers to do something else, the cartels are no longer making money off of that. what do they go into? anywhere. >> so how does though u.s. apply pressure? >> it might be worth looking at whether blood avocado is keeping violence down for instance? is it moving people away from drug trafficking? it is moving cartels towards -- it? >> yeah. well it's difficult to estimate what the

activities of the cartel comprise of. one thing that is interesting from what i have heard when i was there, was that people stated one of the reasons they are moving into this is because they didn't find enough people to participate in the drug trade and that's why they started going into other products such as limes, avocados, and mining. >> it's almost like the mafia now. >> they do seem like a mafia in the sense that they are far more entrenched in the more legitimate aspects of society. they have bribed journalists. they have had mayors that work for him and elected into office as representatives of the cartel as politicians. and other officials, lawyers, notaries, i mean -- if there

is any job, there is always going to be somebody in the particular sector. so they are very deeply entrenched in society. >> our community is really commenting on the violence: and a video comment as well. >> there's no doubt that the criminal organizations in mexico have ingrainedthemselves in many levels across the nation. they had funds to supply the businesses that couldn't be found anywhere else. since the violence has spiralled since 2006 and on, there's no doubt that citizens don't want them around anymore. the government will be walking the fine line trying to rid cartels while keeping stability in these regions. >> rodrigo has this basically

escalated the violence, or has the vigilantly groups stemmed cartels? >> i think it's too early to tell. i disagree with malcolm, i don't think the violence has been lowered. i think it has mostly remained at the same levels. i think that now that the community groups are beginning to take things into their own hands, it's too early to tell what is going to happen, partly because it has put the mexican government in a very difficult situation. where what do you do? do you go after any person who illegally using weapons or target your actions, but the problem because they are so deeply entrenched, then it's kind of very difficult to go after them, because they are protected by many authorities at the local level, and so you go

after all armed groups, you are going to unnecessarily target the community groups more than the cartel. so it's too early to tell, and it's a very sticky situation especially for the government. >> i think a lot of people are probably watching this program saying what is the president doing? and he seems to have shifted the conversation to economics away from organized crime. does that mean he is not dealing either? >> he made comments in july in which he admitted grudgingly that the situation was spiralling out of control, and there was an attack by the cartel on 18 substations becausing blackouts across the state. and that was basically the last straw. so they send extra troops, extra

police, and retook the highways. most of the highways in the state were still under the control of the cartel or the defense groups. and right now what the federal government is doing is trying to quell the most vicious, most overt violence, but they are not actually getting to the root of the problem, and that's the institutional failure, and you can't solve that with sending soldiers, and i think that's where the federal government still has a lot of work to do. >> i completely agree. i think they have been very careful to shift the narrative, to shift the grand of mexico internationally from violence into other things, which i think is good, but the problem is he hasn't done anything internally to address what his new take is going to be. because he has basically followed the strategy of the previous administration. so i think if we look at where

things are going right now, it is just not clear. and just sending soldiers into the area is not going to deal with the most fundamental problems which is the collapse of the local state. one of my friends who i told you i spoke to today, who had been in these situations he was telling me while he was kidnapped he was listening to a couple of kids -- because they were kids, 16 year old kids who were looking after him, basically discussing how do you feel about being a part of this? and one was saying i don't like it, but what else am i going to do? and the other one was saying it's kind of cool, though, because we get to do all of these things. and that's the part where the drug war strategy has gone wrong. it just doesn't focus on the fact that these are organizations that are operating within communities. they hire people in the community, and exert their violence at the communal level.

and as long as we have this top-down strategy where we just send soldiers it, it further separates the communities from the institutions. and they feel even less protected because they haven't been supported. they just you have the cartel on one hand exercising massive force, and the army exercising equally massive force. >> we'll talk about that when we come back. we're back in two minutes.

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illegally buying up plantations that supply the u.s. to rodrigo's point this is about more than farmers and average citizens in mexico. >> yeah, definitely. there are also victims within the state and municipal government. and we -- we coined the phrase -- we mentioned the phrase silver or lead, and a lot of government officials, even the higher-ups, they have this idea that if you do not accept the silver, you will always get the lead. and the mexican government is unable to give them the idea that whatever happens they can prote protecting them. so a lot of kwap -- corruption is involuntary. and a lot of these are just benign people who do not feel like they have a choice, and if the government really wants to solve the problem, what they need to do is give people the

idea that there is an alternative. which gives them the idea that it is anarchy, and the federal government has no control over the basic aspects of society, and that is something that needs to change otherwise the situation is just going to continue to deteriorate. >> our community is chiming in: and give this a listen. >> the problem is prohibition which turns minimally processed agricultural commodities into things that are astronomically more valuable for which people are willing to kill and die for.

>> malcolm what are some alternatives to the u.s. policy with the drug war in mexico that can push things forward? >> some alternatives, personally, and this is a controversial point of view on this matter. i am for the kingpin strategy. taking down the kingpins, puncturing holes in the hierarchies of the drug cartels to create what the da loves to call a horizontal playing field. but it -- it does -- i think that needs to be continued. i think with regards to institutional corruption, i'm going to sound zenophobic here, but this is a quote from a former mexican official is there's no sense of personal responsibility in mexico, throughout the country. i would argue that we have the

same problem here. all right. i think too many of us get away with -- well, some people get away with murder. >> you have about 15 seconds left, malcolm. >> so understanding what corruption is and what it does to society, and it sounds hokey, but they need that training, and the u.s. needs to push that on people just like we need to push it on officials here. >> jan we have about 20 seconds left. give us your final thoughts. >> i think the u.s. should focus together with the mexican government much more on rebuilding faith and confidence in the authority of the state and the prevention of violence in the state. >> all right. thanks to all of our guests for joining us. great discussion tonight. this s

♪ >> the fears the ukraine ceasefire will collapse with shelling in the east. live with the latest from eastern ukraine. watching al jazeera live from london. also coming up: a new assault on the islamic state in iraq. u.s. and government forces mount fresh airstrikes. this time to protect them. the pal stipian accuses hamas of undermining efforts to get support for a