>> i got shot five times. >> just because you are pregnant doesn't mean anything. >> take this curse off of me. >> it's the latest project from film maker alex gibny. he won an oscar for taxi to the darkside about american torture. >> the idea is that you don't

inflict pain on people when you have them in your custody, and you certainly don't expect to get the truth when you do so. >> throughout his career, the documentarian says he has been misled a lot. among the best liars, the subject of this film. >> part of the armstrong story is that he created a lie that was so beautiful that we all wanted to believe it. >> abuse of power is a theme that's a constant in gibney's films. he invest investigated corruption on wall street and corporate america. >> you tell a little lie and bigger and bigger. 2. >> a movie about sinatra? >> his gift as a singer. his cruelty. >> i spoke to the producer when he was finishing up "edge of 18." this was a phenomenal idea to come up with this incredibly diverse group of students from all over the country to document their last year, actually, their last semester in high school.

how did you think about it? >> actually, they documented it, themselves. >> that's one of the things that makes it so powerful, the idea we can see it a moment in time when these kids are on the verge of adulthood who take stock not only of them as human beings but a sense of our coun country and educational system at this key moment in time. >> it tells a lot of important american stories because you have this tremendous diversity. it's ethnically, geographically, religiously and all incredible, to run down a few of the characters. an asian american girl who struggles to figure out whether to put dance over academics, a firebrand white evangelical struggling with his parents about whether to be a preacher or to go to arkansas tech tour school, a couple of latinos, one is undocumented. another is gay, a pregnant girl from the south, an african-american boy who is struggling with the silence of the south side of chicago and

the presents of drugs. how did you find these kids? >> the search went out. we sent messages to schools and groups all over the country. you know, we look at hundreds of kids and just ultimately boiled it down to 15 that we found to be compelling and that represented the diversity that is the country. we sought out characters that would be interesting and celebrate the diversity we are looking for. the stories were very much driven by the kids. >> that's kind of the way we wanted it. i think you would have expected it in a scenario like this is kids with cameras and talking a lot about their relationships. but these kids, what was interesting was the stories they dhoez tell were powerful and important stories about -- about gay and lesbian rights, about education, about ambition, and about relimigion and the separation of church and state. they sound so big and grand as we talk about them in these

abstract phrases but to see these kids go through them, that was so poignant and emotional and it came from them. >> you find out how kids can't afford to get into the main college they want to go to. illegal immigration, body i am alan, kids being raised by their grandparents, urban crime, drugs. the lits goes on and on. billying, military service. >> we are asking a lot of our kids. we are putting them in situations where they are having to be adults very quickly at a very young age and it's impressive to see how they are reckoning with that. it's poignant and i think, you know, emotional for us to see them going through this. >> our high school experiences have a lot to do with how we end up as adults. how did your high school experience shape you? >> came from a pretty privileged family, you know, i went to private schools. you know, i had what would be considered a kind of elite education. i think, you know, the teachers i met propelled me

to try to think big. we talked all the time about the enormous importance of an education and how it's so critical, particularly in this day and time when everything is so technologically oriented and 40% of the kids who would be great can't go to the college that they want to go to because they can't afford it. >> yeah. it's very sad. you spoke about how you trained them or how they became documentarians, themselves. how did you train them. >> there are 15 kids. we brought them all to new york. this whole process had been guided by a wonderful producer named amy kone. we put them in a class for a weekend. we had some of the best documentary film makers, teaching them about camera, about editing, and i think that the big thing that they came away with, the cameras that we gave them are not recording devices. they are story telling devices. it's like if you want to be a

great rider, pay attention to the number 2 pencil you have but feel what it feels like. some of the greatest riders would type over novels we loved. think of these cameras as story telling tools. you are going to tell your own story. so think about how you do that, how you shoot, what kind of things you shoot, what background, you know, where you are with the camera and what that means so that you use the tools to convey the kind of emotional experience you are feeling. >> what you did was that they do then tell those stories in the first person. you don't have a narrator get f can in between? >> we had crews that would go and sometimes get establishing shots. sometimes get dailies that the kids couldn't be in or in certain key instances would be a second camera for a scene in which the kid was actually involved. so to kind of give a broader since of context really but the

main thrust of the stories were shot by the kids, themselves. too, the idea of video self i recognizebies was very important and we talked to them about that. they set up the camera in front of themselves. it's a video diary. they speak to the camera that. turned out to be a very powerful too like a written diary. it brings out something that you don't really always expect when you are just by yourself talking to the camera. >> it's interesting that it brings something out to them but brings out something in the viewer because it let's you connect to the character, to the person, real person who is telling you these stories. >> that's right. >> because they are looking you right in the eye. how do you think the presence of the camera influenced them then? do you think it shaped their stories in any way, that it changed things? >> i think if we are honest, we have to say the camera always changes things a little bit. einstein would have said perspective is vital and important in figuring out, you know, what reality is.

so, yeah. sure. the camera changes things. i think, also, you know, having thought about what the camera means and how it can be a story atelling tooling t i think it em poushd the kids to think about the stories around them and really en gauge nem ways that they might not have outside done. it was like thinking, i have using. i need to find stories that are worthy of it, not just, you know put the camera on my forehead and walk around. >> i showed up twice in the first two episodes i got to see. it is powerful. from your standpoint, as a documentarian, this must have been a nightmare? >> a tremendous a lot of video being created. >> the coordination. >> correct and the coordination and keeping in touch. that's where army and her team were so great in terms of not being over bearing, just staying in touch and helping kids draw their own stories out. so, it was a kind of roving group led

by am that was really designed to enable as things were going along, and that was the hardest part. you don't want to be too heavy handed or too hands off. i think one of the most pointian things that came up is that these kids are powerful. they are very emotionally engaged. but there is no doubt at this moment in the nair lives, they need a lot of help but in delicate ways, you know, not over bearing help or we are going to do it but perhaps you might have thought about the this or what about this? to help guide them. because it's a moment when they are about to be on their own but not quite ready to be. >> did you expect to tell so many different american stories? i reported for most states in this country. i thought i had a handle on america. i am learning in just the first hour and a half of what you put on camera. >> to me, that was the invigorating thing. people asked what's the one thing this says about this new generation? i think the exciting thing about

this is it doesn't say just one thing. the idea is there are so many unexpected kids. the firebrand young preacher. no expect to see that or at it. >> i wasn't either. >> there weren't amount of preachers in my 7 ario class in high school. and then you see somebody like maurice who is reckoning with, you know, his neighborhood in the south side of chicago, very tough neighborhood. see the pull, don't go to college. you can get a good job as a janitor, get some cash. have some fun. don't go to college and the anxiety of him wanting to be with that group and yet somehow knowing that there is a bigger, better life out there if he is ambitious. so, it was stunning to me to see all of that. vashti, the undocumented girl, you know, whose parents are actually want to keep her very tight. not surprising.

she is undocumented they are in a kind of hostile environment yet they want to be here. >> she is looking at going out of state. >> she is looking at going out of state, which they are resisting and ironically, she gets to a point where she can get in to arizona state university, but because she is undocumented, even though she is in arizona, she is not considered local. so she has to pay full freight. so these kind of odd twists and ironies, context of these kids very forcefully moving forward, advocating for themselves is very inspiring. >> coming up, we will be back with alex gibney to look at the rekurning themes from the u.s. government to the catholic church, the military a, enron and even lance armstrong. when "talk to al jazeera" returns. al jazeera america presents, edge of eighteen >> my heart is racing so fast

>> standing at a crossroads... >> my parents have their plan. i'm gonna do what god asks me to do before what they ask me to do... >> can a family come together? >> do you think that you can try and accept me for me? >> life changing moments... >> my future is in my hands right now... >> from oscar winning director alex gibney, a ground breaking look at the real issues facing american teens on, the edge of eighteen only on aljazeera america

sgloofrnlings. this is "talk to al jazeera. i am antonio mora. my guest is alex gibney. >> aside from "edge of 18" you are out with finding fellow about an african musician, a child of privilege, also, who ended up becoming. it brings up a theme that i think recurs in much of your work, power and challenging that

power. why is that so important to you? >> i don't know. clearly something motivates me in that way. i mean i get angry when i see people abusing power. with power comes responsibility. when people abuse that power, it turns a crank in me. it makes me want to, you know, say something, speak out. >> it goes back to your first documentary, a ruling classroom which looked at a] classroom where a teacher decided to create his own little mini state in his classroom and sigh what happened with the kids and how that just very quickly we want south in all sorts of bad ways from corruption to crime in a classroom. >> then they got a lesson in real power when the teacher came in and shut down the class because two girls had written an article about a real teacher slapping a student. suddenly the real power came in and taught them what power was about.

down. >> like a military coup? >> too much free speech. >> an important film "taxi to the darkside" which won you an oscar from dick cheney's infamous quote about combatting islamic extremism that would lead us to have to go to the dark side. it focused on an afghan cab driver captured by american forces, was tortured, ended up dying in captivity even though there was no indication he had any affiliation to al-qaeda. today, the issues that are brought up by that movie are still being discussed. >> i think one of the interesting things that happened is that particularly in terms of that movie, the issues you can see we're still fighting over, the senate is desperately trying to declassify a report that they did on the entire american torture program and it is being viciously resisted by the cia which wants to burn

issue's reputation and prevent a thorough going history from being told. so, it's interesting the way that stories end up being terribly important because if we are to move forward, we have to understand where we have been, and there is a determination it seems on the part of the powerful who will be embarrassed to prevent those important stories from being told. to date. >> i am surprised, though, they are still debating the issue of torture, that there is still such a large percentage of the american public thinks under certain circumstances it's still lives? >> i am still shocked. mostly i think it hasto with poor education. the fact is pro-torture campaign led by dick cheney and so many others has just been led in order to vindicate themselves. there is absolutely no valuable literature that shows that torturing people gets the goods. in fact, many of the techniques

that were used by the cia, so-called waterboarding and other techniques were he ctechniques that we adopted from russians and they use those techniques not to gain the truth but to try to use for political purposes to get false confessions for political purposes. now what does that tell you about torture? and there is a whole host of military personnel, particularly high-ranking generals who are furious about this. they know it degrades moral. it undermines discipline and is adverse fundamentally to the most conveyed american values. this goes bag to the magna carta and habeas corpus. the idea is that you don't inflict pain on people when you have them in your custody. and you certainly don't expect to get the truth when you do so. >> another theme that seems to pop up frequently in your work

is the obsession with winning at all costs. you look at enron, one of your more popular films, at what happened at enron, crazy corruption and what goes on some rogue american corporations and casino jack about jack abramoff, the former lobbiest who wound you have going to jail and in "catching hell" looks at steve bartman, the guy who went for the foul ball at the cubs game and people unfairly blamed for somehow continuing the cruising. and buckner so that it that's correct many more years before the boston red sox ended their drought of winning world series. >> that's particularly an american issue? >> i don't know. i think some are. some are universal issues. you know, it was fun about

"catching hell," we talked about the scapegoat in that and trace truck driver back to biblical times when, you know, people used to drive literally out of to that was supposed to be i am community. but i became interested in scapegoating precisely because of "taxi to the dark side." you know, the excuse about ab abu ghraib was it was just a few bad apples deflecting that dick cheney had basically set in motion a policy of torture throughout the system. so, i became very interested in that idea of scapegoating because it's a way of deflecting. i spoke to jackabramoff and said a lot of people want to make you the one rotten apple.

i bet you want to talk about how rotten is the barely? but the justis wouldn't let me talk to him. in the cause of enron, a interest interesting indicates. there is something i think that is fundamentally american which is there is in this counsel, i think, an ethic of win at all costs. if you win, nothing else matters, the bloottom line. i think that's what became interesting about the lance arm strongly story. that was what made him great and made him terrible in moral terms win. >> he fooled you. your initial movie about armstrong was supposed to be the road back about his comeback. it ended up being the armstrongly. you say you had been lied to a lot of times but never as well as by armstrong? >> he is one of the best. i had to make myself a character in the film and be honest and say part of the angstrom story is that he created a lie that was so beautiful that we all wanted to believe it, you know, the cancer survivor who gets

back from a near death experience and then wins the tour de france seven times. who doesn't want to believe that story in millions of cancer victims all over the world were deeply inverted in that story. but i think you see in that division to succeed at all costs, ultimately, the lie doesn't matter so much. you 'til a little lie and a bigger one and a bigger one. that's what happened at enlron, 2. they started a little corner cutting here and there. the next thing you knew, the whole company was a fraud. >> thousands of people suffered? >> that's right. >> you looked at the catholic church, too. do you think that's what happened there, also. >> i think there is something different that happened there. you are talking about a film. i was interested in that film because i was interested in this group of deaf men who fought back. they had been previously. >> very early on. >> very early on. nobody was listening or

interested in hearing. they are deaf men the they have a hard time being heard but they made themselves heard up to the vatican and to the pope. i think the psychological process at work in that film was something called -- the police call noble cause corruption. the idea if you are in a noble or a holy caused if a few kids are hurt, you know, look at all of the good that we do and you begin to haven't yourself there wasn't a problem heand somehow clericalism is more important that the priesthood is more important than the victims because there is a higher calling here sigh how that leads to deep seated corruption because the problem there is not, you know, we can recognize that there are predators around us. it's going to happen not only in the church but everywhere else. the big problem with the catholic sex abuse is how that sex abuse was aided and abetted

at a cover-up at the top and they would move priests around and never hold them accountable, and they would lie to people about whether or not they had done these things so victims felt shut out. the sub title was silence in the house of god. there was silence by the church and ultimately, it took deaf people, a small group of deaf men to break that sigh lengths. >> a documentary about alex gibney may be in his future. we will talk to him about that whennays returns. >> start with one issue ad guests on all sides of the debate. and a host willing to ask the tough questions and you'll get... the inside story ray suarez hosts inside story next only on al jazeera america

you are watching "talk to aringz." i am joined by alex gibney documentary film producer. >> one thing you haven't tackled as much is creativity and artists. now you are going after sinatra, a few hours for hbo. how do you think it will tell the story in a more important

than a drama from hollywood? >> it's a real story. it will be narrated. we have access to some fantastic audiotapes of him reflecting on his own life and his life, i think, writ large is also the story of america. >> you know, his is he is the son of immigrants, hoe b hoboken, strife to go get across the river. we know about husband gift as a singer, his generosity and his cruelty. all of these things come to bear in a man that embodies the sort of glories of the american dream and occasionally its dark side. >> how has the word of the documentary changed since you started? >> either it's just way bert. one of the inspiring things about the documentary now is

that there is a kind of formal innervation and story telling skill all over the world that is awe en spiring. you know, these are, you know, when i grew up, a documentary was, you know, more like a film strip that was somebody with a pointer, you know, showing a board. >> there is an increase in volume. pockets. it's become edesy doubt the volume is hurting or helping. >> i don't think it ever hurts. i think at the end of the day, a lot of people have pensionels but there are not that many f scott fitzgeralds. it talks even if you have a camera, it takes still to be a story teller. it's one of the things we reckoned with, the difference between the camera as a recording device and a camera as a story telling window. >> as you tell stories about america, concerned?

>> i am concerned about america. i think america at this stage in time is like my friend, e jea derecky said we have this sense of what made us, it's like a bloated he wielvis. we have a completely dis functional congress. we have a huge wage disparity, income disparity in this country. our society is pulling apart. we have enormous wealth and power and yet we have huge divisions that we are not reckoning with so, yeah, i am de deeply concerned because i think we are coasting as if, you know, if we just say we are great often enough, it will be so but it won't be so. we have to make ourselves great. we have to get back to work. overcome. >> absolutely. i think the overcoming is where you see with these kids in "edge of 18," you see so much passion, so much drive, so much creativity, so much

determination to make the world better, so hopefully it will save us from ourselves. us. >> thank you. pleasure. >> while responding to one crisis russia's threats to ukraine, president obama talked about another, the growing power of the so-called islamic state. he said he'll degrade and destroy the islamic army, but how? it's the inside story. hello, i'm ray suarez. speaking to reporters in the

estonian capitol, president obama said the recent executions of two americans by the guerrilla army that calls it is the islamic state united this country and stiffened it's resolve to bring the fight to the i.s. which now threatens the future of iraq and syria. the president reminded the killers of james foley and stephen sotloff america's reach is long, but so far there has been little public discussion of what form in american response would take, and what kind of action would, as the president said, would degrade and destroy the fighters of isis. >> today the prayers of the american people are with the family of a devoted and courages journalist stephen sotloff overnight our government determined tragically that teach wa stephen was sustain from us

in a horrific act of violence. >> it's still not clear when sotloff was killed but the video comes two weeks after the murder of james foley. >> they failed because like people around the world, americans are repulsed by their barbarism. we will not be intimidated. their horrific acts only unite us. >> just last week president obama said he had not yet developed a strategy for confronting the islamic state in syria. the criticism is getting louder. >> we can't wait forever. the longer we do wait the stronger eye kiss become isis becomes. >> he's very cautious. perhaps in this instance too cautious. >> the president of the united states is in denial or overwhelmed. >> it's france, it's the brits. it's the other countries that

need to work with us, including countries like saudi arabia and that region. >> last month president obama authorized airstrikes against the islamic state in iraq. he says this limited military campaign has been fruitful, and the plan for now is to degrade and destroy the insurgency so it's no longer a threat to iraq, the region, or the united states. on wednesday he issued a warning. >> those who make the mistake of harming americans will learn that we will not forget and that our reach is long and that justice will be served. >> did the killing of americans speed the shift of public opinion away from the cautious war-weary posture that marked the early months of the syrian civil war? has isis changed the way americans see renewed military involvement in the middle east? and if so what are the president's options and what does he have to worry about?

>> joining us for that conversation our guests. >> john drake, let me start with you. when carrying out the killings, whoever that hooded man was said they were doing it in part because of the american strikes on isis forces. how effective were they? >> ultimately i imagine it's not going to be an effective strategy for this organization to conduct these brutal attacks so openly. i would say part of their strategy in killing people in horrific ways and in demonstrating it online and making it available to the public is a strategy to intimidate western countries. but i think this might result in the opposite.

i imagine this will galvanize opinions of this group. >> can the united states, john, can the united states do this strictly from the air? when they made those strikes on isis forces inside iraq, were they sufficiently destructive to prove this out as a strategy? >> i would say we would need more on the ground. the u.s. could play several other roles in iraq and syria. it has a strong role in mediation between key players, and that's going to be very important if there is any hope of getting key members of the sunni community back on site. there is also support such as training and finances which might be needed for the peshmerga security forces to tackles organization. there is also pressure that can applied to regional government to encourage them to take stronger action against the organizations. >> christian, when you look at

the situation, what tools are available to the administration? what are the military options that face us in syria and iraq? >> well, there are lots of military options. but before we use any of them i think we should probably have a strategy. and the president said that isis is bad and wants to degrade them, but he has to go broader than that, and explain who he wants to win, what we want to see happen in the broader middle east, that's what is missing here. you know, this event, these two murders. what's going on in the region is much bigger than that. there are 190,000 corpses in syria. you have political turmoil everywhere and the administration that drops bombs. i don't think isis thinks it can intimidate the west or united states government other governments. i think it's trying to serve as a magnate.

you hear of a concourse taking place in northern africa. people switching from al-qaeda to isis. they're trying to draw more people from this conflict, and so far they're doing a pretty good job of it. >> will mccanst. is it possible to go after the islamic state just in iraq and not involve the u.s. in syria. >> no, that's not possible. it's pulling a lot of money from the oil there. it's not really being touched by the assad regime until you deal with it's base . you're not going to be able to solve the iraq problem. you can push them back and push them out of cities that they've been holding but eventually they'll come back. they're good and flexible force that is able to melt away into urban areas, reinstitute and come back. until you deal with them and syria on the ground in syria, you're not going to be able to permanently remove them from

iraq. >> so even if you begin in iraq this has to fend syria. >> that's right. it all goes back to syria. presiden vice president biden spoke about chasing them to the gates of hell. what complications lie in extending in so far strikes strictly limited to iraq and following them back to their home base? >> well, i would say this is regarding the situation as if it's very state centric. this is a regional issue. the borders in the area are very boor, this is an organization that is able to move between various countries, not just iraq and syria. airstrikes in one area won't eradicate the organization. it will make it weaker in the areas that it is targeted but it is able to move from one country to another to expand operations and regroup in areas that aren't being targeted. >> john, should right now the united states be trying to

involve other players? you get rising complexity when you build a rising coalition to take care of a problem, or should it keep its freedom of movement and keep this an u.s.-only affair. >> the more parties involved the better. this is involving several states already. it threats the national have interest of numerous countries in the region and the wider world. ther it is also to insure its mutually acceptable by all the parties and it's not just one country that is going to be effected by the inter investigation. it will be several in the region. >> christian white that brings up the problem that seem to arise whenever the world face as situation like this. people talk about american decline, american retreat. american withdrawal. then when something goes wrong everybody is sitting around and saying where is america?

>> well, i think we're past that point, though. if you look at our allies in the region especially saudi arabia, they have been aghast at u.s. conduct not only in iraq and syria where not only did we not do anything but we tried to talk them out of certificate could you large ceremony leaning fighters who could challenge dictator assad and the islamist andy hadists. but there is a lot of resolve that the islamic state should not run sunni iraq. that's really what it's going to come down to as other guests have said. changing the factor on the ground you can bomb these people, but until someone on the ground challenges them then these jihadists are going to run sunni iraq. we need more secular leaning

iraqis to challenge them. >> does the establishment of a new government in baghdad help in what christian just described? >> it does help in measure if you're talking about iraq. but the thing is in terms of international cooperation. this has been a big part of the problem. and one reason why the obama administration has been very reluctant to get involved. i don't agree with the president's policy but you have to acknowledge he has not been dealt a very good hand in terms of partners in the region. the countries and saudis have not agreed with one another. they've funded different parts of the rebels which have kept those rebels fractured. a number of gulf states do not have tight counter threat finance controls. a lot of private donations are going through the gulf. particularly through kuwait ending up in extremist hands.

that's a major disadvantage to fighting the regime. if you can get turkey to stop allowing jihaddist across it's border it's going to be difficult to form a proxy on the ground to take on the islamic state and pushing us to take concessions. >> we'll be back with more "inside story" after a short break. after we return we'll return with options, stay with us. >> a crisis on the border >> they're vulnerable these are refugees. >> migrant kids flooding into the us. >> we're gonna go and see who's has just been deported. >> why are so many children fleeing? >> your children will be part of my group... >> fault lines, al jazeera america's hard hitting... >> there blocking the door... >> ground breaking... >> truth seeking... >> we have to get out of here... award winning investigative documentary series...

no refuge: children at the border only on al jazeera america

>> now available, the new al jazeea america mobile news app. get our exclusive in depth, reporting when you want it. a global perspective wherever you are. the major headlines in context. mashable says... you'll never miss the latest news >> they will continue looking for survivors... >> the potential for energy production is huge... >> no noise, no clutter, just real reporting. the new al jazeera america mobile app, available for your apple and android mobile device. download it now >> you're watching "inside story" on al jazeera america. i'm ray suarez. the american's president promise of action against its islamic state this time on the program, president obama said u.s. airstrikes in iraq have already proven effective. blunting the progress towards baghdad.

bubut the islamic state appears willing to provoke u.s. military action in the region. this is not what you call an even fight. as the drum beats raise here in the united states for revolving ourselves in that part of the world, that seems to be exactly what the islamic state wants, too. >> it is, and strangely for a lot of these jihadi groups they're willing to take on enemies on all side. particularly the islamic state. they don't worry about who they are anger, and they're going by the playbook that was used before 9/11, which is to carry out strikes against the u.s. persuading the u.s. to leave the idea of war all together or double down and put troops on the ground. i don't think it's a winning strategy for them. they would have been better off not provoking the united states. they'll suffer major losses as a consequence but nonetheless it's

a strategy they're following. >> as the united states was getting out of iraq there were a lot of editorials talking about being really cautious about involving u.s. forces in middle eastern wars again. and here we are just really just a string of months later talking about revolving ourselves in that part of the world. should it be done with a great deal of hesitation, caution, care? >> you could argue this is not the fault of the sift for having withdrawn early. it's very much the iraqi government that reverse of the this which is i do not many have turned against the government and sought to sympathize with the i.s. it may not be surprising the speed this has taken place because of the policies implemented days after the u.s. withdrawal.

it will be difficult to back into the country but you could argue would it be an inflammatory to move in troops, simply because it's not been so long since troops were on the ground providing support to the iraqi army that was so badly needed . >> for all the increased interest in the united states we seem to be also playing other people's game at the same time. >> yes, the next move i think is pretty much nothing. this president has talked tough before. he said we're going--he said the dictator assad had to go in syria. that's pretty unequivocal language. then he followed that up with nothing. if you look at other interventions, look at cairo. egypt when it fell apart. the united states saying we're very interested in this. in libya afric

after qaddafi left, in afghanistan after the government was pushed aside by western armaments in the 1980's. in iran the government sat on its hands when people took to the streets to challenge the government there. i think the jihadists are look at the west and see a paper tiger and understand these airstrikes maybe will extract a very small tactical toll but they are a significant army with the resources of a nation-state. they have a lot of resources, oil resources. they have taxation resources. wise communication and security, all of that lends to a credible state, and we don't really have an army ready to chase them out like we did in libya. you have the peshmerga and the kurdish forces and the iraqi army, but none of that seems like it's capable of dislodging of doing what the president

said, of degradingsering and destroying the islamic state. >> you predicted that maybe nothing would happen. what are you saying should happen? >> it's a bad situation. iraqi civilian deaths and decline from 3500 month at the peak of the insurgency. 500 troops being killed a month down to zero. yes, maliki misbehaved, but the bad actors in the region have to make deals with the other bad actors to survive. we'll see what happens when the west withdraw from ther from there. there is no appetite for another ground war in the middle east bar major strikes in oil prices that dislodges the western economy, frankly, i don't see a lot coming from this administration.

i would combine airstrikes with a ground game supports like the sons of iraq, more secular sunnies. i would do that, there are some secularists. and it's not rocket science. you'll make mistakes, but if you give people arms, funding and support, and linkages and liaisons with the west. that elements the force. >> do you recognize that peaceful iraq that christian was talking about, is that a place that is familiar to you? >> it would be very difficult to achieve now. the main component is going to be the sunni community and getting them back into negotiations with the government. but considering how they feel treated, and how they feel marginalized over the last two years, three years, it will be difficult to earn their trust to come back to the table again. there may have to be major

political concessions to earn their trust. any of the key tribal figures in places like anbar province, if there is any hope of joining the iraqi government or it will be a primary target for the islamic state. it will be incredibly difficult to achieve, and it's probably going to take a large amount of alteration and recalibration as it stands today. >> as you turn on your television, and you see slaughtered yazidis, ethnically cleansed christians, piles of corpses, it's hard to know if this is being done solely as instruments of terror to impress people on the ground or because the islamic state understands that you pull in the wider world when you perform acts like this. >> that's right. i think on one level, on the

strategic level the islamic state is trying to polarize society to create as much chaos as possible, and to take advantage of it. but on a more fundamental level this is basically become a warrior cult. it has gotten out of hand. it's gone past any of the guidelines that al-qaeda ever sat down for running a successful insurgent campaign. the islamic state has a very dark vision of humanity of extremely unimaginative and brutal. i think it's telling whenever they take over a government building and establish themselves, and if they paint it entirely black that's what their vision is. it's an entirely black vision of the future, and it can only rule through brutality. they don't know any other way to do it. sure they're providing some basic social services but even those are very hand-fisted compared to the punishments they meet out for the slightest inflictions. many of them not even

punishments called for in the islamic law. >> you talked about the resources at their disposal. do they become more entrenched. harder to u uproot. >> they do have a lot of resources at their control. some estimates upwards of $2 billion. but they always controlled a decent amount of money. estimates vary between 70 million to $200 million. they've always had a good amount of money. i think what matters in having looked at similar attempts by jihadist organizations to establish control on the ground and in mali, somalia and yemen, they have to work with the tribes. and they have to make sure that they don't anger powerful external actors who can come in and get rid of them. they have to treat the people well. i think on all of these fronts except perhaps the tribal element we'll see the islamic state failing. it's not going to remain very long.

>> we'll be back after a short break. the x factor in all of this, the american public opinion. we'll talk about that when we return.

let the journalists live.

>> welcome back to inside story on al jazeera america. i'm ray suarez. what's ahead in the struggle between the islamic state and the country's around the world looking on with horror as that fighting force claims it's a new caliphate and imposes it's rule on syria and iraq. still with us in london, john drake and will mccanst state department from 2009 to 2011. and in los angeles christian whiten, a senior crisis in the bush administration state department from 2003 to 2009. christian, the president has deplored what the is is up to. especially with the killing of americans in the past several

days. what does he say to the country now to make americans understand what the potential threat of this new force on the scene is? >> well, first of all i would say it's more about deeds in this point. the president has said a great deal about iraq and syria, and it's time to follow through with the plan the american people get behind. you know, americans are non-interventionsists up to the point that they're not. clearly the determination to follow through they will sport it. but i will say what he should recognize is that this is part of a broader problem. why does the i.s. actually attract ing and drawing people to it. we need to use other means? our realm of state craft ,

non-violent means like we used against communism and fascism. it's not about dropping bombs but other tools against these people. >> john drake, the i.s. teams to have gotten the attention of the british government as well. it's threatened the next murder victim will be a british national, and prime minister cameron, question time, members of parliament, they all seem to be looking at whether this pulls britain back into the fight, will it? >> of course, we're already involved. the fact that there are members of this organization that come from the united kingdom there is an image that they're trying to project one of brutality, and one that strengthens, and supports a cause. they're looking to recruit people in the united kingdom to join them. they're hoping to encourage people to conduct attacks here . people are taking this extremely seriously right now. >> will, you heard what

christian said, and john's update from britain, are these people as nations ready to get back into the middle east? >> i think they are. as you said, they have been pretty hesitant the past few years. not even the spector of attacks the brits didn't want to do it. the american people didn't want to do it. what has changed here. one, the beheadings have electrified and horrified american popular opinion, which obama has to respect, but also temper, but at the tame tim same time the move into iraq represents something new. that's the threat to the region alabama lies as well. >> gentlemen, thank you all. that brings us to this edition of inside story. thanks for being with us. join us next time.

> in is al jazeera america, live from new york city. i'm richelle carey, here are the top stories - u.s. air strikes hammer islamic state positions in northern iraq. president obama prepares to lay out a strategy for dealing with is. a power sharing agreement between hamas and mahmoud abbas may be