>> i am not sfraed of code. >> the president of estonia tried his hand at computer programming when he was 13 years old. his country is now a world leader in technology. you can start a company in minutes. >> we could store our national data in nsa computers. are a son of refugees who fled soviet ruled estonia. they different like me, too much.

the communists didn't like me, too much. now, he is not mentioning his words when it comes to the situation in ukraine and the threat that russia may pose. estonia is a small country of one and a quarter million people on the baltic sea right next door to the russian federation. >> i mean we are in a situation in which the rules no longer app apply. one country has basically decided it no longer needs to follow the rules that we have agreed positive. >> the president also talks about sanctions and the economic take. >> we bite the bullet and deal with it have i spoke to the president when he was in new assembly. >> you grew up just across the river here you grew up in new jersey and spent a good amount of time in america. >> 20 years, i spent. >> well, i mean my parents were refugees, men then in sweeden and i was born there and then they -- it's my uncle had come to the united states.

he sponsored them and they moved to i was at radio free europe for a number of years. almost 10. first as an analyst. writing about in the so far the ette union and then they sort of lifted me up by the scruff of my neck and made me director of the estonian service. so i was there until the beginning of the '90s. >> and you were there as things changed in estonia? >> i wasn't in estonia. i was in germany. they didn't like me, too much. the

communists you are there saying what we doing and doing right or doing wrong. but i why don't you compartment is pate and do it yourself. so i did they, estonia needed an ambassador in washington. so they sent me there. as far as they need addphon minister, they pulled me back, did that for about six years and then and then i was in the parliament and leementd to the european parliament and thennists elected president and then i was re-elected president. penn? >> yeah. >> what did you study? >> ex permanent psychology, main

thing and everything else. >> you ended up dabbling in programming along the way? >> yeah. >> aid brilliant math teach whoever decided on experimental basis to teach 13-year-olds. i was 13-year-olds at the time how to program which as i said, i mean i am not a computer programmer. college. >> right? >> to make a little extra money. but it's something i am not afraid of code. i understand how these things work. i thought that was the one area where estonia was playing on a level playing field. were poor, everything is

sort of because of lack of development, you know, the rest of the world that was one area where i thought we should -- we could compete and so i started pushing for computer education and the early '90s. >> so now, estonia gets dropped in with other places as sort of very pro-development, pro-you know, programming places, high-tech hubz, sort of a silicone valley of sorts. >> must have been something about a challenge to get from the most basic of development needs and infrastructure needs to that. influenced? >> well, i mean a number of us did actually. 1993 was actually the first web browser ever. >> right. >> so i mean, people forget that was only 2 21 years', that mosiac came out and then by pushing this and, also, trying to make government more efficient, we started

pushing for eon governorance and that's taken its own path but part of the location side is skype was invented in my country. >> right? >> skype, while it has been bought and is now owned by microsoft, i mean the research and development center still is in estonia and there are a whole number of other startups that are no longer startups but now doing rather well. >> there are many manifestations of the degree to which there is computer literalcy andthat sort elections. >> we have had them six times. and since we use the same system which everyone trust because people use it to do all of their banking and transfers and their business with the government, it doesn't seem to strange to us as it does to other people because for other countriecountries, that's do you, then do you, can i trust

this? but if you have a highly reliable system that you trust for doing all kinds of transactions --. >> and vote something just another safe transaction as far as you are concerned? >> right. and it also has the added benefit that you can do it abroad and get much higher participation from people having to be away. >> you have got these electronic id cards that people use not just to bank but to vote to access other services. people pay 94% of the population pays their taxes online. is there any reason why we can't do that here? >> well, you don't have a skoouf identity. i mean the card is the key. you have a two factor id system. there was a -- there was a cartoon about 20 years ago, the new yorker, where there are two dogs and one dog says -- sits in front of a computer and one dog says to the other that on the internet, no one knows you are a dog. well, that's the -- that really captured the problem is you need a secure identity online for any of this to work.

until you do that, you can't trust being on the internet for safe and transactions. so we have that, as do a number of other countries. >> is it true, though, that president obama sorted of -- i don't know whether seriously or jokingly said we should have obamacarerolout? >> he did say that but i think he was joking. certainly, we have a different is system from the united states. but at least i would say 24 terms of the technical side of things, the u.s. has followed closely how we do this. >> let me talk to you about a few other things. digital facts about estonia and you can tell me if they are related to this security secure id card. you can start a company in estonia, i have heard in as little as 18 minutes. school and medical records are online. children as young as veven

taught to program if they want to be. and i have heard, read that you can even get wi-fi in some for necessary for the estonia >>. >> are these myths. >> those are all true. the first couple of things go back actually to the secure identity. first, you don't need a card. you use the sim card in your phone much the fact, two-factor identification requires a sim card, a programmable sim card that is uniquely yours. and whether it's in a card or whether it's in your phone, i mean it's easy if you put a card in your computer, then the phone is small screen but yes, you can do all of those things and that awe assumes secure identity. we have very sophisticated system of connecting, using the secure id. and then, that what allows registering your company in 18 minutes is another law that we

have which is a once-only law which whenever an american hear about them, they go -- the government may never ask you for any information has so that, i mean --. >> we exist on asking you the same information over and over again in america? >> writing down your address and all of that, whatever, hundreds of times a year. you don't do that. so when you register companies, you put in the ids of all of the people who are in the company, then then you can check up on all of the things. no criminal record, pays his taxes, does all of that. you don't have to supply any of that, which is a way to reduce the hassles of bureaucracy that all of us face. in estonia, we have done away with it. >> have you considered a benevolent take over from perspective? >> a you are number of current trees are adopting our system or

we are developing newer systems together with our neighbors, the fins and the platform we use, the software which we develop that, you know, we paid for. we had a company do it. we actually give away as foreign aid. so the palestinian authority, tunisia, moldova, are all using our system and the u.k. is looking at us very closely and finds it intriguing because the other side of it, it is secure. i mean especially with all of these doubts about people listening in and so forth while i would be much more relaxed about that simply because what, you know, people look at connections. -- >> love letters. >> even at that level, the level of encryption, i make this joke, we could store our national data

in nsa computers because they yet. >> the concept in your part of europe, the concept of public/private sectos seems to go over better than in the united states. you have a public/private partnership that deals with coding, programming. >> right. >> advanced digitral world means coding. it's something people want to get in to. how does this work? >> there are many forms. one is that actually the authentication of any idea grows through a private company that does this. i don't know who's who, but they are the ones that guarantee that everything matches up. >> right. >> more importantly, we launched a rather large computer education program for older people because they would not -- it was done with the banks. the banks realized the more people did their banking online the better it was for them, less action fewer expenses. >> still to come on "talk toays" on could russia's interference

in ukraine lead to a collapse in security's security system?

this week on "talk to al jazeera kwud i am speakierro. >> the smallest members can feel security. we cannot accept threats and intimidation in international relations. we cannot have peace, security, or prosperity in europe or the world unless we find a way to reinforce and revalidate the agreements we have all signed. you have been very, very tough

recently on the world stage warning about russian aggression and where this can go. we are not nearly as interested in ukraine as the russians are or the pols or or the estonia in. s are. you have this audience. tell me what you think we should be thinking about. >> i don't know what the solution should be. the problem is that since the u.n. was created and we had the chart ner 1945 which pour benefits byrd aimpression but even further in the sort of trans atlantic space from u.s. and europe, we have had agreements that we have come to, the most important one is the hell sinki final act which is sort of the cornerstone, has been the cornerstone of security and the transatlantic area since 1975, which signed by all parties saying that no border changes without -- through

force, no border changes through threat of force and that if there are any border changes, those will not be recognized. and the basis of that, of all of those agreements, is no longer there, then where are we? i mean we are in a situation which the rules no longer apply, you know, people, one country has basically cited it no longer needs to follow the rules that we have agreed upon. once you have gotten that far, i mean you're back to thomas hobbs in a war of all against all. you don't have any rules, you don't know what applies. one party can simply break them. >> and nobody knows who is meant to enforce it. with ukraine not being a nato country, this further complicates things? >> absolutely but it is a member of what is now the osc, back then was the csc and party to all of these rules. of course, in the case of ukraine, there are other

problems as well because they had the budapest memorandum which said take out all of your nuclear arms and we, russia, u.k., united kingdom and the united states will guarantee your execute. >> right. >> another agreement that didn't hold, and then on top of that, there is also another crucial document here which was in 1990, the paris charter which all parties said, everyone can choose which way they want to go, who they want to be aligned with. and now, that was more really about nato. but in this case, ukraine is not going to nato. all it wants to do is have a fairly low level agreement with the european union. it's not eu membership. >> trade agreement? >> right. exchanges. but that's it. i mean this is especially in the united states, people think, oh, you know, they are joining the eu. they are not joining the

european union. they are simply having a closer relationship, better trade relations, and if that is a reason to invade someone, i think we are really in trouble. >> in your speech to the united nations, you also referred to georgia. what happened in georgia six years ago? you said it was a larm bells range already six years ago in georgia but no one heard the wake-up call. we must take conflict prevention seriously. we must support states in their choice of democracy. the russian argument is that they are supporting their ethnic-speaking, ethnically russian majority or, you know, population in eastern ukraine. you have one of those in estonia as well. what is the dynamic there? do they feel discriminated against? do they feel protected? do they feel, hey, there is a greater russia here and we would like to be part of it? >> well, if the average salary of a russian minener ukraine is

200 your euros, the average salary of a russian miner in estonia is 2000. so economically t doesn't really -- i mean, it's not as if there is this richer country next door. opposite is true. when we do polls, do you want to no. no. no. the rights and freedoms you have in the european union, you work number. on top of that, we are in terms of press freedom, internet freedom, we are one of the leaders in the world. the argument of having co-eth knicks above, an argument made by the germans in 1938 to dismember czechoslavakia and to annex austria, that's not good. >> you know, that went over poorly when people first said that when this started happening but, in fact, it is a remarkably inaccurate historical antecedent.

it's the model. people say you can't talk like that. nazi germany but that recipe, we have enclaves and we have to move in to protect those people is something that is not worked out very well here. >> historically, it's been a complete disaster the yugoslav wars after the elapse collapse, we have seen this argument made. it is under disaster. if you are extend that argument, then it's not only estonia, latvia. it's brighton beach, you know. the argument of the people from your he ethnicity living somewhere else as a cause for war that can lead to all kind of problems. wisaw it in world war ii. we saw it in serbia.

and if you start taking in europe ethnic minorities living in other countries in almost every step. the liberal democracy. dismember switzerland? no one thinks of that. >> that's why i made the we have plugged to hard to work against for hundreds of years. >> you are watching "talk to al jazeera" ahead on the program, are sanctions against russia the way to go? president ilvez weighs in. >> hundreds of days in detention. >> al jazeera rejects all the charges and demands immediate release. >> thousands calling for their freedom. >> it's a clear violation of their human rights.

>> we have strongly urged the government to release those journalists. >> journalism is not a crime.

this is "talk to al jazeera" with me, ali vel she. >> it has been said if there is

one further degree of escalation in the trade you sanctions between europe and russia, it will be very bad can economically for europe. how are these sanctions affecting you, your country, and what are your sense? are they working? >> we are among the top 4 countries exporting to russia. >> right. it clearly has an effect on us. then there is the food import ban on the russian side which affects us perhaps even more. but not directly. it's not so much that question send things there but rather what has happened is the price of milk or various food products in europe has decreased everywhere because there is less demand. and so we have some -- all of europe has to deal with a angagricultural sector that is not happy. i don't know whether there will be a dramatic change if sanctions increase. on the other hand,

estonia and neighbors, latvian and lithuania are the countries that have -- and poll and. all four countries have strong trade ties but we have been willing to grit our teeth because we consider the security or the situation in ukraine to be serious enough that we bite the bullet and deal with it. >> not all countries in europe feel that way but they tend to be ones that are further from the action. >> right. in the last few years, your russian -- estonian relations relations have been improving. there have been talks going on trade. how has this affected things? >> well, it's been more or less the same. i mean as long as the european union presents a common front, then it's really we are all more or less on the same page, and, you know, the relations have not been warm, but they

either. >> they are not getting worse? >> i mean i would say that president obama and prime minister cameron have been no less vocal than i have. >> what is your sense of how this unfolds? >> well, there is the miraculous situation which are everyone pulls back and we go back to whatever. otherwise, what we have to do is on supporting ukraine economically, and, also, on delayed depending upon actually the military situation. >> that's not what president obama poroshenko wants. he said we can't win a war with blankets. >> right. i mean you can also -- first of all, i think defensive weapons.

>> ukraine has to do a lot. ukraine has -- they are a huge number offorms that they need to undertake. a lot would be difficult to do in warfare or times of war. but as soon as there is a peace established, then, really, ukraine needs to speed up a lot because i mean estonia and ukraine were in more or less the same position in 1991. >> uh-huh. >> and now, our gdp is per capta is three times higher. we are a member of the european union. we are a member of nato. get from where we both were to where estonia is any requirestive reforms and political will and courage that painful. make you unpopular. is ukraine has

problems with clupings. those issues have to be addr addressed. >> is it your sense president poroshenko can get some of that done at least? >> well, i think he is in a much better position to do it. tive not yet met as resolute a president as president poroshenko. as opposed to some of his predecessors, he doesn't really need to enrich himself at the expense of the state. he has done very well in the private sect he can sit back and enjoy life. >> thank you for taking time to talk to us about this. here? >> great. thank you. >> i am richelle carey. >> i lived that character >> a hollywood icon forest whitaker >> my interest in acting was always to continue to explore how it connected to other people >> making a difference >> what is occurring in other places, is affecting so many different ways...

>> inspiring others >> we have to change those things, in order to make our whole live better >> every saturday, join us for exclusive... revealing... and surprising talks with the most interesting people of our time... talk to al jazeera, only on al jazeera america today on power politics, voter anger at washington. >> honestly ban them. ? >> it's a key issue hurting incumbents, fueling outsiders defensive. >> by every economic measure, we are better off now than we were when i . >> plus campaign and profile, kentucky. >> politics hong kong.