remembered by a single poppy. peter sharp, al jazeera, in london. >> a quick reminder you can keep up-to-date with all the news on our website. there it is on your screen. the address, of course, www.aljazeera.com. that's www.aljazeera.com. hi, i am lisa fletcher and you are in "the stream." today are men the oppressed gender? we take you inside a world where american men believe they are the widely disadvantaged sex. their claims, like rape is used as a scam, fuel controversy. yet their movement is growing. and later, why fed up dads are mobilizing across the country demanding their right to be in their child's life. hear why they believe courts and the child custody system are stacked against them. ♪ ♪

my digital producer and co-host is here bringing in all of your feedback and holy cow is there a lot of feedback. >> as you can imagine. this is probably the most divisive show we have done in a long time. the type of responses are extremely emotional. and a lot of people are not happy we are doing the show. i gotta honor that voice, first up lauren, i am quite certain these men's rights activists got all the air time they needed last month after the usc b shooting. allison says i will not be tuning in tonight. i have no use for organizations that give voice to bigots. and mark says, it's a good question, the question is not whether or not it's tile for a men's movement, it's what the movement, what attempt to achieve, we heap to answer that, mark. we've lost fathers tweeting in. jorge says many of us fathers do more for our children than state, federal government think we do. there is too much emphasis on the dead beats and the rolling stones, as you can imagine today is going to be hot. >> yeah.

and we want to make sure that we keep making that distinction. the men's rights movement and the father's rights movement both in the show, both consider themselves different organizations. >> right. >> the global men's rights movement is the in the spotlight after revelation that his the u.k. santa barbara shooter was part of this controversial online universe. while their rhetoric is seen costly and destructive but they are growing, they say they are being stripped of their rights. critic sides the movement is being driven by ma song any and worry that some members have radical views. one of the groups called a voice for men was forced to switch venues for a conference that they wanted to hold in detroit after public backlash in an onlinechange.org petition. what type of mends are behind the movement are concerned overblown or on point? joining us to discuss this from washington, d.c. is robert o'hare action u.s. news director for a voice for men. one of the largest men's rights organizations. and so skype out of chicago,

illinois, david a critic of the men's rights movement. and he is also founder of the blog, we hunted the mammoth. thanks for both of you for being here. so robert, men dominate in american politics, and business, they out earn women by about 20% and have always been afforded rights that women have had to earn along the way. why does america need a men's rights group? >> men make up 85% of all suicides, they make up almost 90% of the homeless, they make up 95% of workplace deaths. men die on average seven years earlier than women do in years past that wasn't necessarily the case, the gap was much less. there is a war being waged upon system. they are failing miserably. no one is doing anything about it. and there is a terrible, terrible bias in our family courts as well as terrible disparities in criminal sentences and prosecution between minute and women. >> robert, you brought up a whole lot of things there. are those all because of women

and the right that women have? are are these simply functions in saturday and gains in the societal system? >> both. there is warren farrell who is going to be speaking at the upcoming men's issues conference in detroit, michigan at the understand of that month, said it best, he said that no society has ever survived without making men disposable. and this carry on his throughout history, actually. and it's -- the idea of the disposable male is something that's -- it's something that's very important and isn't talked about much. so you have that working against men. but also feminism has basically entrenched itself in our education system, our family law court system, and in the media. and whenever men speak up as men about problems they face as men, you see an immediate backlash. what we are seeing right now with the ascendancy of men's voices in talking about these problems that they face. >> david, you have been writing

about robert's group for years. and from the writings of yours that i have read. you feel that they primarily target and harass women. what led to you that conclusion? >> well, when i first started looking in to the men's rights movement i thought they were essentially a group of people who were perhaps misinformed and obsessed with some issues that -- such as wage gap between men and women and that they have decided does not exist. and but as i got more in to understanding the movement i realized that most of the issues, including the issues that were just raised, are not really what is driving most of the men in the movement. i mean, they will talk about male suicides or workplace deaths, but if you look at the track record of the men's rights movement over the last five years, say, they have done

actually nothing to address those particular issues or indeed most of the issues that they bring up that they claim are what's motivating them. and they don't look in to the cause of workplace deaths, they don't look at what groups are organizing to work on workplace safety. certainly unions work on this a lot. i have seen really any understanding of what can be done to address these issues. and the reason for that is that these issues are not the real issues that are motivating the people. what they -- the men's right movement has come up with is a laundry list of talking points that they will repeat online and on programs like this that when you get right down to it the people who start the talking points don't know that much about it. in fact if you look at what is

discussed on men's -- on a voice for men and on the red it's men's rights forum, which is probably the largest one online , it's hatred of women and hatred of feminists. >> you talk about feminists we are already heard today some say feminist is to blame to the weakening and disempowerment of men. feminism sports the men's right activists. men's right activists just hate women too much to notice it. on facebook, chris says testimony pitch includes many of the issues that m r.a.s have especially regarding equal treatment. so robert, does men's rights have to come at the expense of women's rights and feminism. >> i need to make something some things clear we are not misogynistic there are we'll every bit as concerned about the issues concerning boys and men that the

men are. i need to clear up something else. elliot rodgers did not have a single thing to do with the en in less a rights movement. there was absolutely no connection between elliot roger and my men's rights organization. that, that conception is a result of yellow journalism that -- >> actually, he was part of a pick up group which is considered a subgroup of a men's rights activist group. >> that had nothing to do with men's right movement. absolutely nothing. >> you said that he was part of the same universe is a better way to put it. because he did not specifically identify himself as a men's rights activist, but he was part of this online subculture of ma song any that the men's right movement is a major contributor to. >> one of your group's stated objective is to push to an end of rape hysteria. recorrect will you you told an al jazerra report their this whole rape thing has been used by fin 30s to garner power and money, it's a scam.

do you think women are lying when they report rape? >> i think women who journal are raped and report it are not lying. i think there is a huge false reporreporting of rape in our society. it's huge. there is no -- people who analysisly accuse other people of sexual assault pay no consequences for what they do and studies have shown it's oftentimes used as a way to get out of an awkward social situation, let's get back to the firm niche. >> what studies have shown that. >> there are no study that his have shown that. >> there are two huge studies george cane inning midwest sound in the '80s shows -- >> this is a study that's been rejoked by virtually everyone in the profession. >> in what projection? >> no social science. >> i don't think so. >> researched in to rape. it's one of the few studies that men's rights activists site simply because this agrees with their preconceptions of what is going on. >> there are lots of other statistic that his we can site

as well. >> those studies suggest that the actual percentage of false rape accusations is somewhere between 2% and 8%, somewhere in that ballpark. it's impossible to know for sure. when they talk about this, they take on a whole other level of magnitude and there is no one else who has done studies on this who has done serious studies on this that has found anything remotely like that. >> let's assume what you are saying is true. and let's also take a look at what's happened in the -- our legal system in recent years. we have taken away all kind of due process, for people, men accused of sexual assault. this is wrong. this results in innocent men going to jail. [speaking at the same time] >> let's. >> lets stop right there, rob better. >> if machine is rested -- >> i want to get back on track here. robert, you have made some really controversial statements

about women faking rape, using it as political maneuvering, use it is as a way to get money. of course you are going to get a reaction to that. it feels like now that we are on television you are backing off of that a little bit. >> oh, no, i am not. let's make a distinct between firm 30 groups and women. feminists have used the subject of rape. they have expanded the definition of rape, and they have ex-an eighted the i stance of rape to say basically one in four, one in five, one in three women are the victims of rape in lifetime. one in four women will be raped before they graduate from college it's not true and it's used to generate hysteria and. [speaking at the same time] >> gather ma money and political power. >> they get these statistics from the government. >> no, they get them from other feminists? >> no. >> yes, they do. >> three women are killed every day by domestic partner or former domestic partner. that's not the creation of a feminist group these are real statistics that we should talk about. >> who said that? which study are you talking about? >> the department of justice reports that every day three

women are killed in america by a domestic partner or former domestic partner. that's a fact. >> okay, that's three women in america. there is 365, 385 million people in america right now. >> i am just saying if you are going to throw out these kind of numbers and facts and then accuse feminists or women's groups of falsifying them, we need to know how you back that up. >> i would like to get back to this issue of feminists exploiting the issue you of rape for money and gain. i have a friend of mine who is quite involved in rape advocacy, she does it for free as a volunteer, as a rape rice us crisis counselor. what she does is helps when someone is coming forward to report a rape she goes to the hospital, she sits with them for hours often in the middle of the night, trying to help them get through the complicated bureaucracy, trying to help them as they report the rape to the

police and trying to give them support. there is -- she gains nothing momonetarily from this. and the organization that she is a part of is essential a feminist organization, but in addition to helping out women who are victims of rape, they also help out men who are victims of rape and my friend sometimes when she's not working as a volunteer -- volunteering as a crisis counselor helps to coordinate the other crisis counselors and so essentially what she is doing is she's getting. [speaking at the same time] >> let me get? community in real quick. we have men responding. brad says this is a reaction air movement in response to, lease, extreme feminism. christian says these are misogynist reactionaries that must be exposed for what they are and stopped by any effective members. so as we have seen, it's hot. >> all right, robert we have about 20 seconds before we have to end this block. your group complains a lot about women. what has it done for men?

>> we advocate for male fertility control. we have gotten some headway on that. there is gel being clinically tested next year which will provide fertility control for men, a discreet very tilt control for men the first time we have ever seen that. >> your group has nothing to would that? >> yes, we do. >> whawhat has your group done. >> we have helped raise thousands of dollars for research for that. >> our time is up. thank you, robert and david. we appreciate both of your insights. for that segment. divorce is never an easy process, specially with the children in the mix. but with our current family law system are men getting the shortened of the stick? >> the government that came in won't allow the people to speak up... >> john stewart and maziar bahari >> the film is about democratization of information >> the fight for free journalism... >> these regimes are aresting more and more people... >> primetime news only on al jazeera america

welcome back. we are discussing the various ways men are organizing to demand what they feel are deprived rights.

the father's rights movement is largely concerned with equal treatment of men in child custody cases and many say it should not be confused with the broadest men's rights movement. on june 13th they they would a rallies across the country including in front of capital building in washington, d.c. demanding their rights on what he this called national fatherless day. here to discuss more out of new york is mark green, sr. editor of the good men project, a website devoted to discussing masculinity in the 21st century. on skype from washington is brandon lions a family reform advocate and claire huntington a professor at the fordham law school and also author of the book failure to flourish how law undermines family relationships thank you for all being here. we are just come out of a really contentious segment extreme views being throne around with the men's rights movement. what is the fathers' rights movement and how is it different? >> i would like to be very clear in saying that the fathers'

rights movement is a vast and diverse movement with a lot of different voice voices and it iy similar to what you find in the feminist movement. and m r.a.s if they do have a place in that discussion make up a very small part of that. they represent the kind of binary discussions that aren't going to carry us forward. they may make news, and they may get people motivated and tweet and make comments on facebook but they will not rep resolve the questions of how we can best help our children once they are children of divorce. >> claire, one of the issues that the fathers' rights movement frequently brings up is the court system, child custody system is weighted in favor of mothers. does the court system favor women? >> that's a good question. if you just looked at the statistics of where children end up after divorce, you would certainly think that because children are overwhelmingly either have primary custody or most of their time with the mothers not with the fathers. but it is not true at least on its face that the law discriminates against fathers. we used to have something called

the tender years presumption which said very young children should be placed with their mothers. we have done away with that now and both mothers and fathers are equal candidates, that doesn't necessarily mean they get custody. libel i said they dlike i said p with mothers as opposed to fathers overwhelmingly. but that doesn't necessarily mean courts discriminate against father. fathers do three times as much childcare as fathers in the 1960s, they still do less. both work about the same number of hours in terms of paid work, total number of hours, but when you divide that up between paid and unpaid, mothers are doing far more unpaid childcare, housework, than fathers, and so it's not necessarily surprising that children are ending up with the person who has done more of the care for them while the marriage was ongoing. >> jorge a community member thinks there is a bias, he's a

father that's been through the system. he tweets men's rights is about fairness in being dealt with this courts there is a bias that puts men in jail without trying during divorce, culture plays a role. a father might be struggling providing for his family is seen as not a good dad and most time a father's role is ignored. brandon, you have been through the system. look, has our legal system evolved and adapt today the adapted to the modern understanding of fatherhood? >> no, it hasn't. a lot of that comes from the fact that when you are talking about a two-parenting system it's looked at like an accessory rather than something that you absolutely need. so when you first start the initial process of separation, whether you are just in a regular relationship or married, you really are dealt a lot of the bad laws if you are a noncustodial parent. and first of all, they make one person right off the bat a noncustodial parent and then you

are faced with a lot of birds from child court when you are still trying so hard to be a full-time active parent. you are dealt with having to go to court and most of the scenarios mean that you don't have the money to even finance those, you know, a lawyer or the days off that it takes to make that happen. so you are really put in a bad position to move forward and become a full-time parent and you are really at a disadvantage to becoming, you know, the parent that you want to be. that you aim to be and that you were when you are in a relationship. >> brandon, you were actually a construction worker and you switched to becoming a family law advocate after your fight to be in your daughter' life. what was more difficult for you as be unmarried dad in fighting for custody for your child than it may have been for a couple that had gotten divorced? >> well, i think like a lot of fa thirds out there you go through a time in, my scenario when my daughter's mother was

going to school, i was naive enough to think that we would stick with the status quo of co-parenting on a daily basis, and i think that's what a lot of people aren't aware of. and when i fell in to that situation obviously we had been split up for a long time, to try to correct that and to try to get acknowledgment for the hard work that you do, is something that for one you don't think about, and one you aren't keeping track of unless people are knowledgeable about the system. and this is just another issue that goes on with, you know, equality movement or fathers' rights movement to his try to gain -- or give people the knowledge that they need to empower them to have those capabilities to make sure that they keep records. >> claire, your research actually shows that married and unmarried fathers are treated differently. what drew you to that conclusion? >> yeah, well, first of all there are different laws on the books. so in 15 states if a child is born to unmarried parents the mother automatically has full custody of the child.

and the father has to go to court in order to secure some custody for that child. and as brandon was saying, that can be incredibly difficult. lawyers are expensive. in many states most people going through a family court are unrepresented. often on both sides, both mothers and fathers don't have lawyers. and courts are also just an extraordinarily difficult place to resolve these really tricky issues. we can talk about that in a minute courts versus other systems. but certainly the law for unmarried fathers they treat unmarried fathers differently than married fathers signing parental rights that typically married fathers there is a legal presumption that if a child is born within a marriage fathers have rights, unmarried fathers don't always have that presumption. and custody is an enormous issue that they don't -- either they don't formally get custody or they have to go to court and fight for it. and many of them just don't, and as a result, it means that the mothers become the de facto

decision maker about whether or not a father can see a child. and mothers may keep the children away from fathers for very good reasons if there is domestic violence in the past or they may keep them away for somewhat less sympathetic reasons. >> we have a lot of fathers chiming in. those of dollars spent the mother has all the power, courts help the mother alienate the father. >> when question come back, one of the things that we want to talk about is the de facto decision -- if the de facto decision by the court should actually be joint custody. we'll ask claire about that. and talk about some legislative activity in favor of dads. we are seeing movement i in a number of states what, it means to the future of the of family law and child custody. we'll see you in two minutes.

♪ ♪ welcome back. we are discussing the fathers' rights movement. and claire, before the break, you mentioned that it seems like it's often the de facto decision of the court to side with the mother for custody. should the courts be gender blind and look at both sides equally? >> right. well, what i said is that children were more likely end up with their mothers but that's not because courts are biased for mothers they are recreating the situation that the family had before the break up where

the mother did more child caring than the father. but in terms of de facto child custody it sound good on paper it's not necessarily a good idea. certainly both parents should be candidates for custody and the idea should be to try and maintain a relationship between both children. but between both parents and the child. but to have a presumption in favor of joint custody, can raise all kind of concerns, especially if there is violence in the past. >> whole bunch of community feedback, lisa. gerald on twitter says if unmarried fathers have to pay child support they should have the same rights at married fathers. in most states mothers whether married or not are considered the primary parent not the father. and in paternity custody and support, the matters the court automatically assumes the woman is an angel when many times she isn't. mark i want to get new this conversation. from the good men project, et cetera let's move forward. this does this have to lead to a gender war or can there be a meet in this middle between both

parents for the best interests of the kid? how do we achieve that? >> what's remarkable for me here in this conversation is we have -- we are talking about fathers' rights to have access and be engaged in their childs ar lives and the whole 20 minutes now has been about courts and law. which implies a divisive and conflicted view of divorce. culturally we need a discussion about divorce where we destigmatize it, where people aren't automatically and by default put in to a mind set where they have to go to war with their spouse in order to determine the outcome. and one of the big challenges that people who are -- men who are raising their kids, stay at home fathers, which some sources say the numbers as many as 7 million fathers now, is that as soon as the issue you of divorce arises, as soon as a -- as soon as a couple of decides their marriage is not going to be sustainable. the implication is that the

family has collapsed and it has not. function and operate, co-parenting a rain little and co-parenting partnerships can a actually revive the sense for a child that their family is vital and living and going forward. >> good note to end this on. thanks to you'll of our guests, david, robert, claire, mark green, and brandon lyons until next time, we will see you online. ♪ ♪ real reporting that brings you the world. >> this is a pretty dangerous trip. >> security in beirut is tight. >> more reporters. >> they don't have the resources to take the fight to al shabaab. >> more bureaus, more stories. >> this is where the typhoon came ashore. giving you a real global perspective like no other can. >> al jazeera, nairobi. >> on the turkey-syria border. >> venezuela. >> beijing. >> kabul. >> hong kong.

>> ukraine. >> the artic. real reporting from around the world. this is what we do. al jazeera america. >> welcome to the news hour. welcome to the al jazeera news center in doha. jailed americans in north korea have been sent home. and one poppy for every fallen