extensive navigatable map, but it could become an historical record of what was once beneath the wave. if you want to keep up to date on all of these stories we're following, head over to aljazeera.com. >> the need is massive. the purpose noble. after the widespread problems were there, there is a new manager in charge who is promising change. fixing the veteran's administration is the inside story. >> hi, i'm lisa fletcher. it is no stretch to say that the department of veteran's affairs has a trust problem.

when headline after headline appeared in newspapers revealing the death of a systemic failure in care for our veterans, millions turned to them for medical care, resources and support, the outcry was overwhelming. it caught the obama administration off guard and patients who had long waits, took down the v.a. secretary himself, a well-known war veteran. >> you are the veterans of americans, the most trusted among us, the most tested of americans. you're not only the heart and soul, but you are the very spine of this nation. >> after spending the morning paying respect to those in the

line of duty, vice president joe biden spoke to a sea of military families about honoring those who are still with us, our veterans. >> we stand here committed to show our respect and honor and care for all our veterans. >> veteran, and now they're care for carried through the ceremony. emotions are still raw following april's catastrophic problems. hundreds of veterans would die while sitting on waitlists to see doctors. there were cooked books false fighting waiting lists and veterans often would wait for more than 400 days o for care because of backlogged bureaucracy. >> we had people dying while waiting on waitlists. >> reporter: the scandal brought the

resignation of erik shinseki shinseki, who was the hot seat in may. >> any allegation, any adverse incident like this makes me--makes me mad as hell. >> reporter: now a former proctor & gamble ceo robert mcdonald is the newly appointed secretary of veteran's affairs. this week he announced major changes are coming to the agency, and delved deeper in his plan in april's memorial. >> we set three goals for ourselves as we began to move forward. the first was rebuilding trust with veterans and stake holders. second, improving service delivery, focusing on veteran outcomes, third, setting v.a. on a course for long-term excellence and reform. >> mcdonald is promising better training, more accountability and a structural overall including disciplinary actions that are meant to make the v.a. more customer oriented

for veterans and their families. >> we'll outline functions, simplifying operations, improving processes. increasing productivity, and effectively i a implementing the veteran's access choice and accountability act. >> the president is seeking a lot more help. the goal is to hire 28,000 new medical professionals, including 2500 more mental health specialists. and as many as 1,000 v.a. employees could be terminated. that won't be easy mcdonald said each firing will need the approval of a judge. >> we want veterans to know that they do not strife alone. the vision of our president, vice president, the leadership of support of congress, the concerted efforts of our organizations, the good people at v.a. and the american people are all required to best serve veterans. >> there are nearly 22 million veterans living in the u.s. today.

2.5million of them served in afghanistan and iraq, the country's longest period of war. >> we're talking about the promised new direction for the v.a. turning around any institution is hard, but one as big as the v.a. can be done how entrenched are the problems, can they be fixed, and what might a fortune 500 ceo bring to the challenge? joining me for that discussion is u.s. representative for washington's seventh congressional district. from san antonio brian turner a veteran working as a scheduling clerk at avert' at a veteran's clinic. and welcome, gentlemen. sweeping problems at the v.a. we now have a knew chief in charge. you work there and continue to

work there as a scheduler. how are things now at the v.a.? >> there is no change of as of today we continue to see issues as long as the same people are in place. there has not been a change in a lot of people's attitudes of employers, employees, and as veterans come in as patients they don't see a change. i don't see a patient as a patient and employee. >> i know there are still issues with scheduling. policies that have been handed down, and even mandates in a

have been given out by the secretary recently. we're talking within the last couple of weeks and months we've gotten new orders to do things the right way, the way they're supposed to be done this whole time, yet, we still want to do it the way we want to do it because we think it works best this way. we have prioritiers, we have clinics and personnel in place who think they know what is best, and they forego as they see policies and procedures handed down to them. >> congressman, assuming what brian said he is witnessing is true, what do you think right now? this was exposed to the american public. he's telling us nothing has changed within the walls of the v.a. >> well, lisa, america has a habit of planning to go to war, but never planning to come from war with the problems that follow a war. our veteran's administrations

has been struggling with the whole series of problems for a very long time. one of the reasons why i proposed a plan to produce doctors under similar to what we do with rotc officers is i think we should train people for their service in the veteran's administration, give them a free medical education, require them to serve for five years as a primary care officer, and train them in the kind of people that they're going to be dealing with, because many veterans have a lot of problems that the order citizens in this saturday don't. they need to have a training that prepares them for this. we've got lots and lots of veterans out there living in places where they can't have access to veteran's administrations, hospitals, so they're planneddering around in the community, and you're not going to fix that unless you increase the manpower available for primary care. >> i read about your plan, it

sounds like a noble and promising endeavor, but the problem is should we be adding more to a system that is broken? don't we have to fix what is broken first before we add to it? >> some of what is broken is broken because we hide the fact that there are not enough people. i really think that without the beginning of hiring more people and paying them you're not going to be able to fix this things. it's always people, this is a people business. these are not widgets, they're not bottles of hair shampoos. you have to think about how you deal with that complexity. >> kenneth, from a corporate, non-governmental perspective. you're the overhauler. you are the guy who comes in and

shake things up and businesses operate in a productive way. we're talking about 6.5 million patients. 300,000 employees. 850 clinics, is this thing just too big to take control of? >> i don't think so, no. it's clearly going to be a daunting task. it's not something that will go quickly. it's not surprising that not much has changed yet, i think anything like this has to be restarted with a vision of its orientation. with different goals and objectives and differen it will move towards implementation

of of vision. >> brian is talking about employee who is are still acting within impunity even though this has been laid bea bare. what do you do when you have that mentality ingrained in the system. >> that's a culture change, and it starts with clear communication of the vision, and clear communication of the values of the organizations. those things have to stand on integrity. and the values of the organization has to be accepted by all. if there are differences of opinion, those differences have to be incorporated in whatever the solution is. it takes communication to effectuate a turn around. >> brian, is there a sense in the v.a. as a government employee that you're untouchable? >> oh, yes, very much. i like to say that, you know, when i came from active duty

service i noticed the one main thing was everything was consistent, every base i went to, every duty station, it was the same. i could do my function and my job at every single location the exact same. i've worked at four different v.a.s and it's different from the handwriting to the language used. it's all different. nothing is the same. when you see that you have to know that there are people in charge. they don't care how they run their business. what is happening they've give the directors the helms to run their areas as they choose to, and overriding things that may have been meant nationwide. by overriding, we're talking about simple things that clerks are able to do. providers are able to do.

>> we're going to take a short break and we'll pause you there for just a second. when we come back we'll take a look at the changes proposed by the secretary of veteran assever fairs. will they work? stay with us. this is inside story. >> scared as hell... >> as us combat missions end in afghanistan >> they're going to make plans for an attack. >> the only thing i know is, that they say they're not going to withdraw. >> get a first hand look at what life is really like under the taliban. >> we're going to be taken >> it's so seldom you get the access to the other side >> fault lines, al jazeera america's hard hitting... >> today they will be arrested... >> ground breaking... they're firing canisters of gas at us... emmy award winning investigative series... special episode on the front lines with the taliban on al jazeera america

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fires on the airplane... >> they're short changing the engineering process... >> from engineering to the factory floor... al jazeera investigates broken dreams: the boing 787 only on al jazera america >> welcome back to "inside story." i'm lisa fletcher. we're talking about the huge task of turning around the department of veteran's affairs now there are multi. structures, and otherwise it's a mess. ken, the plan is to untangle this mess under the direction of a chief customers service officer. is this going to work? >> i think it's a matter of necessity. yes, i think it can work. it's not going to be easy, but it's absolutely a matter of

necessity that there would be uniformity and standardization across the system. it's too big to have a bunch of independent decision making going on and it's too important that we have a standard of quality of service for the veterans and to make sure that the mission gets accomplished the same way across the organization. >> brian, secretary mcdonald wants to encourage bringing information forward. he wants to award employees for bringing adverse information to the forefront. is this going to work in a system that has gotten people in the mindset that they're going to be punished for bringing information forward? >> no, not all. it's not going to work because it has not worked. until we get rid of the people that are in charge of these areas that continue to push their

function of the v.a. it's never going to work. people have come forward. people have come out and mentioned what is going on in the system. no one has come down and i'll tell you right now. i'm here for the veterans. i could care less if mcdonald or anyone gets upset because of what i'm saying tonight. i'll here on my time to work for the veterans. that's the only reason why i work for the v.a. >> congressman, secretary mcdonald has been criticized harshly by some lawmakers, particularly, the republicans, by not moving fast enough to remove the bad apples. what do you think is the congressional responsibilities in all this? >> well, we have to give him the power to do that. he can't do anything outside of the laws that we've greated.

one of the things about america right now, everybody wants instant response on everything. i'm a physician. i trade in the veteran's hospitals in chicago years ago, so i don't have the negative feeling that some may. i realize there are some administrators who have not very good at their job in motivating their people to do what's best for the veterans, but i don't think that it's going to happen instantly. no one, mcdonald sore anybody else is going to walk in with a magic wand and swing it around a few times and have it be better. it will take time for us to find out who are the people who have been problematic, he's going to have look at each one of the veteran's hospitals because i would say the one in seattle is a good one. i know you can get good treatment there. one of the problems is getting in to the system. sometimes the bureaucracy of establishing your ability to get care in the veteran's system keeps you out, so there are all

kinds of places where there are problems that mr. mcdonald is going to have to work on. it's going to take a while, but that can be done. it will be done. >> can the congressman mention that you can to find the people who are problematic. this was an elaborate cooking of the books scheme. it really required a culture of deception within the organization, federal report found out this was going on at 93 separate facilities. in order to find the bad apples you have to figure out where this begins and ends internally. where is your starting point for that? how do you even wrap yours arms around it? >> well, it's going to be a difficult task. you begin to investigate those. in any corporate environment where there is a question of integrity the first issues you have to address are the issues of integrity. the first thing that we do is

address the financial reporting issues, and make sure there are integrity in the numbers and transparency in the process. had a that is a value statement that has to permeate management within the organization. it's not something that is going to happen overnight. it is going to take some time to do. but it's where everything starts. if you start to make other changes and haven't addressed the integrity issues those other issues are not going to work. >> is that easier to do in the corporate world than it is in government? >> i think the challenges are probably different in the government environment. but i think it's th it's the same of leadership. folks are either buying in or they're gone. in an organization this size that's a massive task. as pointed out earlier every person who is let go will have to be approved by a judge, and

that will be a difficult process. >> brian-- >> in the meantime, can't we put those people into a different position and allow someone to step forward and become a new member in charge. what the problem is yes we have to follow the rules. they have to be seen by a judge in order for them to facility the firing process, however, they shouldn't still be in charge. they shouldn't still be running the system that they were involved in. that's the number one step that i believe needs to be done. i think honestly that's what the veterans are waiting for. i know me myself as a veteran changes. i want to see changes made that people want to stay with the right policy and procedures. you mentioned earlier that the policy and procedures come in down the road. they're already there. the problem is nobody is following them. until those people are put in check and say this is how it's going to be done or you're out the door, nothing is going to change.

>> speaking of changes we're going to take a break. but when we come back we'll take a look ahead. it will take a year to implement the changes. is that realistic? can you cut through the red tape, reorganize and streamline. ken, think about that. stay with us. this is inside story. primetime news. >> welcome to al jazeera america. >> stories that impact the world, affect the nation and touch your life. >> i'm back. i'm not going anywhere this time. >> only on al jazeera america.

>> welcome back to inside story. i'm lisa fletcher. we've talked about what is wrong veteran's affairs and what is the prescription. when the government launched its healthcare.gov website, to say the least it was rocky. reorganizing the v.a. is not the same thing but is that experience constructive welcome with us is congressman jim mcdermott for washington. and from son san antonio is brian turner working as a scheduling clerk at a v.a. clinic , and kenneth hill with the firm's turn around and

restructuring group. congressman mcdermott, are you optimistic that the second largest government agency can be cured of what ails it? >> the fact is you said in your opening we need 28,000 new health professionals in the v.a. system. when you start with that kind of problem and have an incentive system that is built on making the numbers look right in order to get promoted and get paid increases, you've built in intensives that are simply going to lead to the problems that we have today. all of that has to be changed. the incentive system has to be changed. now, i think you can do things to --we're letting veterans go out and see people outside of the veteran system. that is one way to help some of it, but it's going to take time, and unfortunately the american

political process, people want it fixed right now, and it's not going to happen. >> brian, what is the patience level of veterans right now? >> what is the level of patients in terms--are they willing to wait any longer? are they at their limits? are they sick and tired of this or are they willing to give it time. >> the v.a. has been problems for decades. this has just been brought to light. when we had the ebola touch surface on the united states we had one death, a foreigner death. each day we lose 22--minimal--22 veterans to suicide. yesterday we saw 22. tomorro today we lost 22. tomorrow, we will lose 22. by going outside of the system we might save one less.

but instead of losing 22 every day. 28,000 providers, i love that idea. that's a great idea. great start. but what are you going to do to retain the providers we have now. i lost two providers in my clinic in the last month or two. if i lost providers and i los you bring some in, are you going to cover those who have left. right now we have providers who are burned out and they're ready to walk ship. how do we save those 22 lives per day? >> ken, how ar would you advise going forward? >> he has got to have the right vision as part as developing that vision he needs to communicate with those doctors and service providers to understand their input and understand why they're being force to make decisions and do things differently than spelled out in the manuals. are the manuals out of date or are the situations just not

covered in the manue manual. in order to sell his vision he has to reach out and get their unput. >> congressman, do you think it's just too big. should congress consider pulling the v.a. back in their service-related injuries? >> my belief is that it should an single payer system in this whole country so everyone had access to a guaranteed set of benefits any place they wanted to go to get treated we've created this system, and we've tried to force veterans in it and keep them in it, and then they have other problems that are not battle-related, and they want those taken care of in the system, and we've created an overload on the system. backing them do you is going to leave them with the problem of

where do they get the healthcare for those things not caused by their war injuries. that's why you need an universal system where the questions are never asked where are you getting your healthcare. you ought to be able to go to any provider and get taken care of. >> all right. that's going to bring us to the end of this edition of inside story. thanks to all of our guests for being with us. the program may be over but the conversation continues. we want to hear what you think about the issues on this or any day's show. log on to our facebook page. send us your thoughts on twitter or handle @aj inside story a.m. or you can reach me directly at lisa -underscore -fletch. i'm lisa fletcher for al jazeera america.

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