f the underground system visible on the flat forms, visible in the station concourse. you get the ideas that a lot more eyes and ears are out there observing who is going on. a public transportation system that we have seen in france - there has been attacks on the metro in france. almost 20 years ago, and we saw in the u.k. in london attack against public transport infrastructure. these are vulnerable ports of any city infrastructure security is stepped up and outside key buildings. buildings. >> let's begin with that breaking news. >> a lockdown authorities are saying they are certain they have surrounded two brothers suspected of carrying out the

killings at charlie hebdo. >> the airport has closed down to runways. >> the brothers are hides out inside a printing warehouse. both have been on the run since gang down 12 people inside charlie hebdo. dana lewis joins us live by phone. you just got into town. tell us what you're seeing. >> there was a blanket of security here. you can't imagine how many police are on the streets all the way from the center of paris past the charles did he gall airport

the police are making sure everybody is far away as the hostage drama is unfolding as we speak. the records quiet the windows have been closed on many homes. i'm standing outside a high school. it is full of students, and it is about less than a mile away from the printing factory where this hostage taking is takes place, in fact some of the students just leaned out the window chanting solidarity with those murdered in the attack on the newspaper in the center of paris 48 hours ago, they were chanting "we are charlie." there's an elementary school across the block. students are also inside. police posted heavily armed officers outside guarding these schools, guarding the homes while the negotiations, we're told now being reported by a.p.

are underway. in fact, the initial contact with the hostage takers in that factory, according to an a.p. story now took place when police wanted to contact them in a range for the safe evacuation of the school that is a little bit closer to the printing company. in fact, that was done and i believe the students removed from there. you know, incredibly, french radio just had an eyewitness this morning said we had a meeting at that printing factory this morning. he was on his way there. he saw two men dressed at policemen. he thought they were special weapons and tactics officers or army. it turned out that they were the gunmen. they simply told him we're not harming citizens or civilians just walk away. he walked away and told his story to french radio. i'm right in the town in the heart of it, the center, dozens and dozens of police and we are

told by the national army press spokesman that we are going to get very little information now while this is underway. they are not going to do statements until this is resolved one way or the other. of course many fear that these men want to be considered to be martyrs, that they have gone out of their way to leave their calling cards and they emerged this morning led police on a high speed chase down the highway after commandeering a car, and one of the largest man hunts in the history of france, they are holed up in this factory and one wonders what they're after. are they going to use this as a stage to try and get as much press and coverage and further their cause or do they want to die in a gun battle with police. the a.p. story said that a lawmaker from paris was here and he was in the command post and

he said in the initial contact with the hostage takers, del that they said that they want to die as martyrs. that may be where a very dramatic episode is heading this morning. >> tell us what we know about this potential hostage situation. they have made contact with the hostage takers, we understand. >> according to one source from a.p. now a lawmaker who was in the command post said negotiations had begun. contact has been made with them and that is about all the details we know, other than the fact that they were set up initially, and talked to, so that students could be removed and evacuated from a school nearby. the printing building where this hostage taking is underway, and we should be cautious in the sense that there has been no

official confirmation of how many people are in that building. originally it was reported that there were five workers that are part that have company then much of the french press started reporting on radio this morning according to various sources that there was one hostage inside. that has not been officially confirmed by the authorities right now so you have the national police all around this down locking it down, protecting the civilians who are still in the residence who are still inside the town, students locked in schools and then of course you have all the special weapons teams and there are a number of them in france, including raid as they're called here who normally deal with hostage situations and they're in the inner corridor, as it's called. police here set up an inner corridor a most immediate area around the printing factory and then set up outer corridors from there, because they certainly don't want those gunmen to make

a run for it and escape in any way and they have to protect people so that's what they're sort of doing. we're on the second corridor right in the heart of the down. >> what are the reasons being given, if any reason for why two of the runways at charles degaulle airport is closed down? >> because these men are heavily armed. even in iraq, they have had r.p.g.'s that brought down aircraft or helicopters damaged aircraft and in these case, these men are said to have rocket propelled grenades, so there is a danger to aircraft. and they have small arms fire, and aircraft inbound or landing less than a mile high, even small arms can be dangerous.

of course, they want to limit any chance, and it's a far chance, of course that there would be harm. we could see some aircraft still heading in, using the other runways. >> dana lewis by phone france. >> this morning, you said perhaps we should perhaps introduce new legislation. >> no, no, one must always, i say before the preeffects and

republic said yesterday before political parties representing the senate and in the presence of both presidents, it is legitimate that questions should be asked with reward to say one's arsenal adopted by the parliament and additional questions will be posed but we must above all not improvise the minister of the interior will with a different parliamentary group specializing on these matters, if such and such a matter may develop. once again let's be cautious. the investigation has only started and no one's been arrested but at the same time, one must ask all questions in the event of doubt and respect to freedom and law what can

evolve. >> so you were just watching the french prime minister speaking from the office of the newspaper where the charlie hebdo journalists are working. just to tell you a little bit of what he said, he was giving an update basically on the ongoing situation, saying that the suspects have not been arrested, neither has the person who killed the police woman on thursday. that police did say that there is some sort of connection between the two charlie hebdo

suspects the two brothers, as well as the suspect of the smoothing that took place on thursday. that's just a little of what the french prime minister was saying just a few minutes ago. let's crass back to barnaby phillips to give us an update and what you see going on there barnaby. >> i'm hoping what you can see right now is a large number of buses lined up. >> yes, we can. >> several more outer vision. ok excellent. those are empty buses. what we assume, and it seems a pretty safe assumption is that they're heading into town to evacuate or to move anybody who wants to be moved. they've been coming up the motor way throughout the last half hour trying to weave their way through all the media traffic and the police are getting them all lined up and in we're

imagining, we're assuming, will escort them do town. this tallies with something else that we've heard within the last few minutes a local government official was quoted by the associated press as saying that the police had been discussing in their talks with the suspects the necessity of moving children from a school, which is next to the warehouse where the suspects are holed up, are surrounded. according to this local government official, this woman she said that the suspects had agreed that those children should be safely moved which is obviously good news and obviously would be an issue of enormous anxiety to everyone

dammartin. >> they will be working out the way in which they can come to some sort of understanding obviously on the terms set by the french police to look for any chinks in the armor to look for tensions that ever sprung up to make sure that they surrender, and above all to make sure that they relinquish

any hostage or hostages unhurt. that will be an enormous priority for those negotiators now. >> ok, barnaby, thank you. crossing back to london and bringing in sally a specialist in catastrophic and extreme risk. sally, i wonder if you were listening to what barnaby phillips was teg us. he was giving us an update and we were looking at live pictures of the buses that are reportedly going to be going in to dammartin. what do you make of this development? >> it's excellent because to get any level of cooperation even talking to the hostage takers is absolutely excellent. it also suggests that what we've seen over the past day with their activities is that they do not appear to be in discriminant threats to the population, which would suggest that potentially the authorities the police, are

the ones whose lives are most at risk in the situation. if they can move the children, that will give security forces a much better chance for any arrangements they are making. i think also from the terrorist point of view, it allows them to portray themselves as having humanity. what we will see is a propaganda war coming out of them providing safety to children. they suggested to a lady that they didn't kill in the first massacre in paris that she should read the koran and they didn't kill her. that they appeared to be doing a shoot to kill by order. it was an ordered hit that they were undertaking which is much more of a criminal activity than a core terrorist activity, so we may see that they can be talked down and in the process of feeling humane and doing this

gift-giving of the children being safe. >> even though they have said that they are willing to die as martyrs. >> yes but remember that the longer you keep saying that, it gives you time to think about it and what we have seen with these two is they chose to get away they didn't make the charlie hebdo location a scene for being martyrs which would have been a world media scene and one would have expected they may have taken over that building and really held out after doing that first lot of shooting but they seem to want to get away to do more fighting for their terrorism cores so they've chosen life in the past and i think the hostage negotiators will realize that they may be able to persuade them to keep choosing life over death, and that may mean that they do need time to talk them

out. it will be the biggest victory for france if they can get these two out and get them out alive because then they can put them through the normal justice process and it removes the success that the international terrorists will be wanting of these two as martyrs. >> moments ago sally, you were talking about further arrangements that the security and police forces will be making going forward. can you elaborate? what do you mean by that? >> i was talking about arrangements that the security forces will be making. if you can remove vulnerable civilians and particularly if there is a group of children with perhaps a proximate wall, common wall with the warehouse building, it means that the chance of in discriminate fire or potentially, a fireball,

they've got flammable liquids with them or an r.p.g., if that went near a location with a lot of children, it's an absolute disaster that they couldn't afford to have happen. i think removing the children means in discriminate loss of civilian life is minimized but also moving any civilians who would be within the fire ground is also important. that if they do have the higher powered weapons the range in which people are at danger may be quite a few hundred meters, so they would be trying to clear civilians, as well as those children but flexibility for the security forces to do any action, i would suggest getting those children out might be absolutely critical to them. that for the terrorists, it may be a propaganda coup. the pros of removing the children if they can load them into buses will be an extremely

delicate one if it brings security forces within the fire ground of those terrorist attackers. i would expect by this stage they will have a very good understanding of where those two and their hostage are inside that building. i don't think the terrorists and the hostage will be hidden that inside the building. i would suspect that the security forces will know exactly where they are and will be able to calculate some of the threats that they can give to people outside. >> all right sally, thank you very much for the time being. that's sally speaking to us from london. that is the scene right now in dammartin. just a few moments ago, we were looking at live pictures, as well of some convoy of buses and our correspondent overlooking dammartin was saying that the intent of those buses is to go into dammartin and

evacuate some school children from that town, so what we know so far is that this particular town you're looking at just to give you geography it's on the northern outskirts of paris and french police ever surrounded a building. thief been surrounding this building for the past couple of hours where the two men, two brothers suspected of being behind the killing at charlie hebdo on wednesday are hiding. we understand that there is one hostage with them, so they have taken one person hostage. for the part couple of hours the town, as well as the vicinity of the town has really been a scene pull of police, as well as security vehicles. remy is still with us in the

studio. give us your perspective. we were looking at the pictures of the buses going into dammartin. give us a sense that the negotiations are moving forward? what do you make of that? >> i make of that that we are in the terrible events, we are lucky to have maybe terrorists not absolute extremists. even when they highjacked a car they didn't kill the drivers of those different cars approximate they mentioned that the police talked to you that we were sent by al-qaeda in yemen. they didn't harm them in any way. it seems now they are ready to make sure the children at the school close to the warehouse are not hurt, either. i also see on the other side, it's very well managed by the french authorities so far. that we maybe are avoiding a large-scale crisis or large-scale event with several casualties and we do see how the whole pros is well conducted.

they are firmly in action here. step-by-step, they go through the routine of securing the children maybe anyone that was injured in the process. >> so this is them taking control then? >> it's the defense army. we've seen them in cases with a few lunatics in school in france. that they are going through the motion step-by-step. they know time is playing in their favor. likely the two terrorists are exhausted, they haven't slept in such a long time. they are trying to encourage them to not move forward with their plans and die at martyrs. >> we ever is something they have reportedly said. >> but if they manage to

convince them. they know the background of those two individuals. they have been going through the different events in their lives contacted people that were able to convince they will. it's important for french authorities to have them alive to prevent them to be claimed as martyrs for a particular cause and go through the process of justice. that's why they will take their time right now. >> how difficult are these negotiations going to be. >> they are differ, but in terms of if you look at the tragedy they have an advantage because they know perfectly what the warehouse looks like, better than the terrorists inside right now. it's not the choice of those two men to be in their warehouse. that there's no strategic advantage whatsoever.

right now, they have the strategickical advantage. the negotiations are complicated. we can see that there's also signs of progress. they're going step-by-step. second of all might be trying to convince them to not harm the person kidnapped inside the store. they have the right information. they've been able to do their due diligence on those two individuals. that they know also the path that they've gone through maybe what are the buttons they can press to try to convince them. luckily, maybe down the road, we'll see signs of process in those negotiations, even more than just interesting the neighborhood. >> we did hear from the prime minister speaking just a short

time ago and he was just giving an update on the situation saying that contact as we know has now been established with the two suspects, as well. that how do you think the french authorities have managed this from wednesday up until today 48 hours later? >> they managed it well. first of all there was a meeting in the palace with the different authorities for a very long time. you can see right away, christians to the jewish community to the buddhist community and muslim community condemning those events, with a message of tolerance and supporting the french values. right away, there was actions taking place here. then they did a very good job securing information. that's what they have done specifically well, president hollande was in forming on a step-by-step that basis.

>> let me play what the prime minister had to say. >> there's been incredible reaction, very healthy reaction on the part of society since wednesday, and let us not be naive. it's through the web, there have been some extraordinary reactions. this reaction by citizens, even if there are unions, and political parties, it is a reaction by the citizens. we must gather around values, values of tolerance and freedom, because it's freedom and tolerance that were affected that they wanted to kill them. we must go beyond the gathering the demonstrations on sunday. >> i'm del walters in new york. you are watching our continuing coverage of the situation right now about 25 miles outside of paris, that is a live look at

dammartin, an industrial suburb of paris. authorities are negotiating with the two suspects hidden in a warehouse that is in the town of dammartin. residents have been told to stay indoors and nearby charles degaulle airport has been closed down. >> dana lewis joins us from this talk about dammartin. dana what can you tell us about how these suspects ended up in this town? >> good morning. it would appear after 48 hours of one of the most intensive manhunts in french history that they decided to emerge themselves and where they were headed is a very big question, were they trying to get back into paris they may well have been intent on that.

a few hours ago they started driving about 25 miles north of paris towards the city. they encountered we're told, a police road block. there was an exchange of gunfire at that time. there was a police chase and then they came into this town, dammartin where we are now. we entered the town about an hour ago. i can tell you it looks like a ghost town, because there are so many police on the street, everybody has been told to stay inside indoors. they've drawn shades and shutters on windows. i'm standing inside a school here. there are about a thousand children we are told in the high school and elementary school, which i'm looking at, just across the road from one another. they are in lockdown and police in the air. it is an drill area where these men then entered a printing house, a printing company.

the original reports were that there were five people who work at that company the latest reports are that they once inside have one man taken as a hostage. as you reported, i think the negotiations have been established. there has been contact between the police, the authorities, and the the gunman inside, the kouachi brothers, it is believed the suspects indeed from the paris attack and they were originally contacted, so that they could evacuate a school, which is slightly closer to the printing factory from here, and apparently, that was allowed. the children were removed from that school. that at that time, these gunmen said they are prepared to die as matters. it is a very grave situation a serious standoff unfolding and it will no doubt be a very

dramatic conclusion to what has been a tense 48 hours across france. >> there was a police officer that was killed yesterday. what do we know about if there is any connection to these particular two suspects, these brothers? >> they are now saying the authorities, that there is a connection which is surprising. originally they warrant us about making a connection between the two incidents. you have the attack on the newspaper, on wednesday thursday morning, there is this strange incident in the south suburbs of paris where a police woman responds to some type of traffic accident was the initial report. that some men wearing body armor with an automatic weapon opened fire. the police woman was hit and died later on, and he disappeared into the metro the subway system. they are now saying that man knows the kouachi brothers, he is known to them and he knows them so there is some kind of connection and how deep it runs, we don't know. >> all right dana lewis keeping

us posted on this hostage situation in dammartin. that we'll get back to you very shortly. shortly. >> they are amenable, agreeable

and those are good signs that they are working with the police that are acting as the negotiator so that behavior goes against what they just said in terms of we are going to go out as martyrs. what negotiators have to do is they listen to the words these two killers have said, but they also are going to work more and more towards getting them to be compliant and agreeable. they are going to be using themes with these individuals in an effort to get them to surrender. at this point i think it's possible if it works successfully, they might be able to convince them. >> are we seeing cowardice remorse? you have two suspectses brutally opening fire inside charlie hebdo, yet others say they were poll light. how can that be? how can you marry these two images? >> that halls all the time in

violent offenders. you have on the extreme end of the continuum someone who is very psychopathic, they don't bond with anybody but then you have most of the time, you will have offenders who have also a range of amotions and commitment to their cause. in this case, these offenders are committed to killing police officers, committed to killing the targeted victims that they did just two days ago but we have example after example where they are not interested in killing civilians even though had the opportunity to do that. i think at this point also, they are in a situation they did not plan for if. this was not part of their grand scheme so now we are see ago switch in their planning. also at this point reality thinking may be starting to take over for them, because there is no possibility that they are going to get away. it's either going to end entheir

death or their surrender. >> mary ellen o'toole joining us live, thank you very much. we are going back to our sister network al jazeera english. this is jacki roland reporting live right now. barnaby phillips, excuse me. thank you. >> i'm going to tell you a little bit of new information that i've got from inside dammartin, if you're still with me but i've not been able to hear your questions at the end so you'll have to leave me at the end. there are tweets in fact from some of the children in a secondary school in dammartin and they put out a message saying that they are going to be evacuated soon. it would seem that they are fine and we've also heard that the french newspaper has some reports at the primary school, the primary school is under

police guard and carpet has been laid over the windows to prevent any shrapnel or anything else hurting the children inside, so the sense -- >> all right so we're having some audio problems -- >> do have things pretty much under control that the suspects are holed up in a warehouse but that around that area, things are secure, and that it is possible for the french police to move people away safely, so the risk of a moving incident, an instant rushing across town from one end to the other that seems to have gone away. it seems to be a static situation and it seems to be a matter of time, in fact. we saw a statement from a french official within the last 15 minutes or so, saying that this

could take hours it could take days. i'm afraid i'm going to ever to leave you there because i haven't got any sound connection at this point. >> that was barnaby phillips just reporting for us on the latest situation. the latest developments he's hearing, barnaby was saying that children the school buses in fact that we saw just about half an hour ago a convoy of school buses entering, standing in line. there they are. that they are planning to enter dammartin, and to evacuate some school children from a school, so born by was saying that according to some tweets that have been put out by the students, they are going to be evacuated, so that's what's going object right now in dammartin, but taillight we do know that the situation is still going on with the two suspects who are holed up in an industrial building.

that is according to our correspondents and that's also according to the french prime minister who spoke just a short time ago saying that the situation is still going on in dammartin with these two suspects who are reportedly behind the killing at the charlie hebdo headquarters in paris on wednesday. there is a hostage that has been taken and is with these two suspects in that building. contact now has been made with the two suspects. >> we are joint by sally from london an expert in extreme risk. >> with what we are seeing here,

the removal of the children is obviously the key issue. they must have a level of confidence that they are not going to be under a line of fire if they remove them. i expect the children will be flat on the floor and out of any way of any windows in that school. we've just heard from what i could tell, a report that there was carpets up on the school windows. that that's not going to as to that any high powered weapons so if the children are on the floor and out of the windows areas, they will probably be reasonably safe. moving them will be a delicate pros. the fact that we are being told that the police may be expecting to be many hours or days in that location is suggesting they are there for the long haul -- >> what does that mean to you when authorities say that and barnaby, our reporter, was

describing the scene as being very static and a matter of time really. >> if the scene is static, and it's going to take time that means there is a lot of patient and they are expecting they will be able to negotiate the situation through. these situations change minute to minute. the other situation that we've seen with similar types of hostage situations in areas such as rack where these people may have trained when they enter into a killing spree they often have stimulants with them to keep them awake for an unnatural number of hours and they carry nuts to keep them going. they may be able to oh stay awake for unnatural hours. the perception that they'll get

drowsy and taken when they get tired, that may be a long way away. >> so far how would you say this has been managed by the french police, the french security? >> it's exceptionally well managed. thief managed to move them into a totally unpredictable situation. this was a very well planned hit. they had their car ready, they were obviously moving to a certain direction. one would suspect even enfleing at the moment, they may have been heading toward that airport, which may again ever given them a very high profile attack situation which would have been absolutely disastrous. i think the police have been and the security forces have kept them off balance to get them captured into this situation. finding the identity, and getting public help hases

obviously assisted them, but now, the crucial situation is the psychology of the french forward commander and the psychology of the two attackers and how well the french psychologists and advisors are reading the background of those two attackers and the likelihood they have to firstly kill what may be reported as a female hostage, secondly to do in discriminate fire that could hurt civilians and thirdly may they be determined to keep going to solely kill police. the reason that i keep talks about the police being in danger is that al-qaeda in iraq in these situations, and again, i think this is the reference points of these two men a whole generation of policemen were killed in iraq because they were the target of al-qaeda in iraq. once you kill the police, the

public then come under your control, so every police officer or security force person killed is a much higher victory than a civilian target, so in a way part of their motivation may still be to kill as many police as possible, so again another challenge for the police forces is for the fewest injuries or deaths to take place on their side because you can say are they hostage to -- >> we've heard about the early al-qaeda in the arabian

peninsula in yemen but the style of attack that we saw on charlie hebdo is much more indicative of the military style hit, and assassination of people who have been disturbing the ideology that is currently coming out of isis and al-qaeda in iraq. al-qaeda in the arabian peninsula have been very -- they certainly are brutal killers. they've been focusing object transportation particularly aviation. we haven't seen a claim from either al-qaeda in yemen or in iraq or isis itself yet. none of the main players have actually claimed these two and we don't know why because there is normally a claim particularly after an assassination like charlie hebdo. >> they could be two men acting on their own as a lot of people tend to think sally.

let me just go back to my question about what police have to do next to minutialize keep down their casualties. >> the police have taken some brutal casualties, which will make them extremely cautious. because you have a combined military presence and remember the french military have had such significant international experience, they will know the mindset of the way in which these people have been thinking, and have been training themselves whether they're independent or whether they have been trained by an al-qaeda group. they will be assessing what the fire ground is those two may be setting up. what other weapons they may use. will they us the fire bombs the potential death of the hostage

to shield them. will they take higher locations will they find higher locations in that warehouse to get an upper fire ground against the police. they will have to assess every point of fire out of that warehouse that could impact on their vehicles or on their individuals, so it will be a very carefully coordinated police-military operation and i would suspect they will run with care we've seen this now running for well over a couple of hours so i think that forward commanders who have good experience in conflict zones will have had a very immediate plan in what they're going to do and they'll be refining that every minute now approximate i think every minute, the police are probably getting safer. what they're going to do and whether they'll put themselves in danger by doing an attack on these two depends on the mind of

the police commander. he will be making a decision whether that particular hostage or hostages' life is in danger. if there is, there may be an immediate move. >> sally, thank you for the time being, speaking to us from london. for viewers just joining us, we are bringing you the news, it's been going on for a couple of hours, on going operation right now in dammartin-en-gaulle. that is a down on the northern outskirts of paris where french police ever surrounded and they have been surrounding an industrial building where the two men suspected of being behind the killings at the charlie hebdo magazine on wednesday are currently hiding, and reports do say as well that the men have taken a hostage with them, as well in that building. we've heard from local authorities in dammartin the

deputy mayor saying that students are now being evacuated, or will be evacuated from local schools by bus because our correspondent lawrence lee who went into dammartin with a police convoy was telling us that the town was pretty much under lockdown, no one could go in or out because of that job going situation with the two suspects. local authorities in dammartin now saying that students are going to be evacuated from a local schools by bus and there is a police presence at the schools, we understand. at the same time, a few moments ago, a reporter from paris jacki roland was telling us about a shooting, gunfire rather reported in a grocery store in the east of paris. this happened a few moments ago. french media reporting that gunfire has been heard at a grocery store in a suburb east

of paris. barnaby phillips joining us now from dammartin-en-gaulle is following the latest developments. barnaby, first of all with the students and their evacuation. >> yes that's good news, because we saw these 12 buses driving up here about half an hour ago. we assumed that was what they were going to be used for. they drove in to the town just on the hill there. as i say, 30 minutes ago. we hope that that evacuation goes ahead safely, and we've also had these words from a local government official, speaking to the associated press in which she says that the police have received assurances that school children would be allowed to leave. there are school children from a variety of ages, secondary school right down nursery. in fact, as i was telling you a short time ago someone in the

secondary school has tweeted saying they are going to be evacuated and the figuero french newspaper has been reporting that the primary school windows are covered with carpets to try to keep dangerous material from hurting children inside and the primary school is securely guarded by the french police so things aren't necessarily moving forward one way or another but it does seem as if the french police at the moment ever things under control in dammartin although obviously, they haven't quite reached the conclusion that they would want to reach of this crisis yet. >> do we know how far the school is barnaby from where the suspects are? >> no, i'm afraid i don't have that information but the suspects according to everything that we've seen and heard over the last few days are

well-armed heavily-armed and obviously kalashnikovs which could cause much damage. the authorities here wouldn't want people to ever to move unnecessarily. of course, people's safety would be the prime concern. they don't want to cause panic. they don't want to cause unnecessary destruction the sort of reports we've been hearing on french radio they

say that they were very frightened earlier when there was a gunfire exchange, but that since then, that they followed the advice from the police, stayed away from windows they've turned off lights, thief kept movements to an absolute minimum, but that they feel relatively secure where they are. of course, as your expect was saying just now the authorities, the police will be assessing things minute pi minute, whether the situation changes, whether it is necessary to move other people, but that doesn't seem to be the situation at the moment. >> are you hearing anything, barnaby, on the negotiations, the contact that has now been made -- >> you are listening to our live international coverage from our sister network, al jazeera english concerning that standoff in dammartin in france. we want to update you on all of the developments, as you ever been listening right now the

major police operation takes place northeast of paris in the city of dammartin. brothers sheriff and said kouachi are hiding out there. residents have been told there to stay indoors and nearby charles charles degal airport is closed down. >> we are getting word of a shooting at a supermarket in the east of paris. we are hearing that there is an

armed man inside the supermarket who is holding five people hostage. women and children are being held hostage inside this kosher supermarket. that there are other lines coming out. apparently police believe the armed man holding these hostages is the same person who just 24 hours ago opened fire on a police patrol in the south of paris, a man armed with an automatic weapon, wearing a bulletproof vest and firing specifically at uniformed police officers. one police woman died of her injuries another is critically injured, and police are concerned, apparently, that this is the same individual who's now holding five people, we believe is the number of people held hostage as a coacher supermarket in the east of paris.

>> for our american audience that is just now tuning in, are there concerns in france now that are being confirmed that this gunman is related to the other two gunmen in dammartin? >> indeed, yes. just in the last hour or so, police have said that they have been able to establish what they described as a link between the two gunmen who it's believed are holding a hostage to the north of paris. that situation in the town of dammartin, and this other man who is now holding a number of people hostage in the kosher supermarket in the east of paris. police are saying that these menu each other. police haven't gone as far as to extrapolate and say that the two shooting attacks were coordinated or linked, but they

are saying that these different suspects knew each other so we have those two armed suspects holed up in the warehouse in dammartin to the north of paris and we have this other suspect a man who police say are -- is holding a number of people hostage in a kosher grocery store in the east of paris and police suspect that this is the same individual who just 24 hours ago killed a police woman and critically injured another police officer in a drive-by shooting in the south of paris. >> jacki roland live in paris. you see the images coming out of france this morning the latest being that our jacki roland reporting that there has been another hostage situation inside that supermarket. they believe it is related to the montrouge shooting where a female officer was shot and

killed by gunman, armed with a kalashnikov and wearing a bulletproof vest. >> there were reports that the two hostage takers, the kouachi brothers say that they want to go out as martyrs which i don't think it's that surprising to hear that type of language in a situation like this, but what exactly are they base that go on in their faith? what are they distorting? >> >> so again you repeat the question? >> the kouachi brothers, there are reports coming out of the hostage-taking situation this they want to be martyrs. what part of their faith are they distorting to say that?

>> >> i think we ever to see this crisis through the lens of disturbed people and criminals and leave aside the question of faith, because the very fact that these people are claiming to do something in the name of god, in the name of their religion is an act of organs and in a way the scene against the superiority of god in the humanitarian framework. >> could the events inspire another radical sneak there are certain people right now that may be connecting with what's happening? >> according to recent research, there are cope cats and later more likely to emerge that these days big organizations like al-qaeda have lost their heading. in fact, we've seen a stream of

acts in the last two years in france cord out by loners in a way. we are not sure yet whether there is a connection between attacks that took place yesterday and today and now there is a second hostage taker in paris, there is a possibility that he may be an emulator. security forces in france are well equipped and well trained for facing these types of crisis because france has been subject to a similar type of terrorism already in the 1990's, at the time of the algerian civil war when the f.i.s. was a major grew that engaging in political violence and the political violence of algeria spilled over into france. >> all right, thank you. >> you are watching the live

images coming out now two locations in france, one of them we have been reporting on throughout the morning and that is in dammartin where the two suspects believed to be the suspects in the charlie hebdo shooting are now holed up inside a warehouse. these are images out of eastern paris, the kosher grocery store there. our jacki he roland telling us moments ago that another suspect, a man who is believed to have shot and killed a french police officer wearing a bulletproof vest and armed with a kalashnikov maybe holding as many as five people inside a grocery store. we want to go back to mary ellen o'toole. the fact that authorities are saying these two incidents could be related as we watch this drama play out what does that tell you a and how concerned should web at the this point in time that we are looking at

something much, much larger? >> the second incident really is a concern. it's a concern because it suggests that there's communication between the two groups. this communication in terms of if we do this, then you do that, that could have taken place before any of these events occurred or they could be in touch with each other right now. law enforcement needs to get that resolved as quickly as possible. it also does raise the concern for the general public that this whole event has a much broader basis to it, and that's going to scare people. they are already afraid and this is going to increase that fear. it also suggests that it's being done to divert resources and attention away from the two killers up in the warehouse.

it needs to get resolved quickly in terms of the relationship between these men because it's concerning to law enforcement and creating an unnecessary fear in the public before they get it resolved. >> i want to update our audience joining us right now. there are two major police operations taking place. you are seeing one outside a kosher grocery store in eastern paris, where there is a gunman inside. our jacki roland telling us that as many as five hostages may be inside and also authorities believe that they have the two suspects the two suspects in the charlie hebdo shooting held up inside this warehouse in the city of dammartin-en-gaulle that is about 25 kilometers northeast of paris. two runways at charles degaulle airport have been closed. schools have been locked down in the area.

they are talking to the two gunman inside. it is believed that they have told authorities there that they are willing to die at matters. the second situation now the one taking place in paris where there is another gunman holed up inside that kosher grocery store, if there are two if there are three, how many more could there possibly be and do we know at this time? >> we don't know at this time. no one else has surfaced, but we don't know who's behind the scene, who's helping to promote this or has helped to make these events happen. we don't know. my sense is if there were more people involved, this is the time to create maximum chaos having two hostage situations going on at the same time, it's on the international stage now would be the time if other people if they were involved to start creating their own situation. fortunately right now we haven't seen that, but that's not to say that it won't happen,

but that would be time for us to see additional chaos. >> before we let you go and back to our international coverage, i want to ask you what does it say that in all three cases where we have three suspects now that it appears that all three have been waiting to be engaged as opposed to what we saw at charlie hebdo which is when they went in an opened fire in what appeared to be a pre-meditated, well-coordinate attack? >> well, the hostage situation at the warehouse has all the trappings of not being planned. that's not how these two killers envisioned this situation would end, because their options in terms of what they do next is absolutely determined by law enforcement at this time unless they commit suicide. >> on that note -- >> it's unclear -- >> on that note, if you have suspects that want to do suicide

by cop death by cop how do you prevent that from happening. how do you assure that these men who want to die at martyrs don't die? >> it really does come back on the negotiators are and the scenes they are using to engage the two individuals in the warehouse, keeping them talking developing themes that they'll listen to, that they will respond to. here's something else that's very important. that they've been in this situation for two hours. the longer it goes without them committing suicide, and the more that they are talking to the negotiators, that's a very good sign because they could have killed themselves already by now. they could have walked out of the warehouse with their firearms which would have precipitated an attack. they haven't done that. that what we're seeing now is at least temporarily a good thing. >> what do you believe we are looking at with rewards to that? are we looking at a different

mentality with the second shooter apparently when he was engaged by that female officer opening fire and striking her? he was armed, we are told with a kalashnikov. how do we negotiate with this particular gunman? >> we are absolutely looking at a different personality here. his personality is unknown. we don't know if he is on medication suffering from some type of mental health issue. every time you negotiate with someone, you have to determine what is their personality are they building any type of are a port or bonding with their hostages. that that's critically important, what are their goals. he is an unknown approximate with that in mind, that becomes critical and he does, even though he may sympathize with the other two doesn't mean he has the same personality and it doesn't mean he has the same end goals. that's critical for negotiators to determine that quickly.

i will tell you this, one of the first things as a hostage negotiator that i look for is how are they bonding with their hostages. that if there's bonding taking place there i breathe a sigh of relief. if there's no bonding taking police between hostage taker and his hostages, that increases the concern for the negotiators. >> mary ellen oh doing please stand by, because as you can tell this is continuing coverage. for our audience just tuning in, we are following and attracting definiteliments on two fronts. the scene you are looking at now is in paris where a gunman is now holed up inside a grocery store, said to be holding five people hostage. we are continue to go monitor the situation out of dammartin-en-gaulle where two runways in charles degaulle

airport have been shut down. the two suspects, the kouachi brothers as far as what we know are in in communication with the authorities there but they have told that gerber that they are prepared to die as martyrs. >> let's check in now with dana lewis, following both situations. dana my understanding is that you've been trying to gather information on the standoff that we justified heard about in eastern paris at this market. that what can you tell us about that? >> good morning. incredibly it would appear both those hostage taking have loose connections. that is something the authorities are trying to figure out. you have a gunman yesterday in the south suburbs of paris get get into an altercation wearing a bullet move vest, body armor. he fires upon a police woman kills here and just escapes into

the metro system, and he has now surfaced in a very dramatic way in the eastern suburbs of paris. we understand that he has gone into a kosher grocery store and the latest reports from french radio right now is that there are five hostages inside, that there might have been some shots fired initially and it is a dramatic scene there. there is a school in that area that they have now put under guard and they may be evacuating trying to make sure the students are safe and getting them out of that area. of course, that is now what appears to be a hostage taking, and it will now lead to some kind of contact we assume, if the police are able to do so, with the gunmen and that is exactly what is happening here in dammartin where i am, where we have these two kouachi brothers in the printing warehouse and negotiations have

started with them. >> dana, the incident, the shooting of the female police officer yesterday with the suspects involved in the second standoff, do we know what led to the interaction between the shooter and the police? >> well, we don't but it would appear what's significant is that he apparently knows said and cherif kouachi. initially, police warned journalists about jumping to conclusions, but then did start to call it an act of terror and we know there are some links between that gunmen and the two who carried out the attacks on the paris newspaper on wednesday. >> all right dana lewis stay close for us now. >> we want to go back to mary ellen o'toole the retired f.b.i. profiler. that as we watch this event unfold, one of the questions

being asked is that there is a situation with the european union, which allows people to travel to and from the united states without having to secure a visa. as a profiler, are you concerned. i know this may be outside of your tool kit but are you concerned that we should be thinking about what we are seeing in paris and outside of paris on a much larger scale with much greater concern here in the u.s.? >> >> well, i'm sure we are already concerned about that and thinking about that. as this unfolds and the law enforcement community in the united states, as we begin to see what happened and how it happened, i can assure you that the f.b.i. with all of our partners both domestically and internationally will be looking at all of those policies and regulations in terms of how can we tighten those things up. what can we do to make sure that those kinds of peel are much

less likely to make it into the united states, so it's sad that this kind of a situation has to occur to cause us to take a look at our regulations but that's exactly what's going to be happening, because we don't want to see this repeated over here and no one else in the world wants this to be repeated in their country so everyone is looking at this right now. >> take us inside, if you will, as we see images coming out of eastern paris that kosher grocery store where that standoff is taking place take us inside the mind of a hostage at this point in time. most of us familiar with hollywood, we have a tendency to want to glam rise what is going on inside these particular hostage incidents. that tell us what it really is like for an f.b.i. profiler or for a hostage negotiator at this point in time. that what are they trying to do, what is happening behind the scenes? >> depending on who the hostages are, they are essential terrified, they are not aware

not sure of what's going on. they don't know who this person is that's now kidnapped them and not allowing them to leave the market. what's important are the dynamics between the kidnapper and the hostages. that what's going on between them those dynamics really create for us, as negotiators and profilers the thing that we would recommend in terms of seeing development and what we want to say to the hostage takers. if he's treating the hostages in a very cruel way threat be thatting them with a weapon, he's being particularly sadistic or cruel towards the children or a particular hostage all of that can aggravate the fear in the hostages or help to lessen the fear, so we look at what those dynamics are in terms of their interpersonal relationship and that will affect how frightened those hostages are or if they're able to calm down a

little bit and we don't know that at this point but they certainly don't have a clue as to why they were taken and how lethal this person could be and at the end if they're willing to take their lives. they don't know that and that creates an enormous amount of fear in them. >> ms. o'toole it's clear what we're seeing on camera right now, on television is extremely dramatic. can you talk to us about the parallel investigation that is going on right now away from here to in fact actually deal with this situation? >> what they would be doing now in both set of circumstances is they're developing as much information as they can about the hostage-takers approximate they need to know every possible thing that they can know about each individual, because that information gets funneled into the negotiators because those gorks are very dynamic and it's when you think you're having

some are a port building with the hostage taker, all of a sudden it falls apart. they are in need of background information, about their personality and what makes them tick and at the same time, medical information. do we have information that kansaser bait or make this situation even worse. that requires on the ground investigation that's being handled by law enforcement. they're going out talking to people information then comes back which is then funneled into the negotiators. >> i want to ask you about the role now of the media and these operations. that i don't just mean broadcast media, as we see these images coming out of paris right now everybody, it seems like on that strike force has either a walk talkie radio we know students are tweeting out saying they are

being evacuated. are there concerns that you would have as negotiatedder that one side is talking to the other side and if so, how would something happening in dammartin affect what is happening right now in paris? i want, if our director could take this image coming out of our international coverage, these are the school children inside that school there, one of which has been evacuated others said to be on lockdown, how will all of these events affect each other and how concerned would you be as these events unfold that what that is in dammartin will affect what happens in the other city? >> the negotiators are very much aware that because we have to assume that the hostage takers.

they say you lied to me. we don't want that kind of scenario but that cab happen when the hostage takers monitoring the events in realtime -- >> if they hear for instance that they are relied, if they are relied and hear that their relatives have been shot in dammartin and they go out in a blaze of glory how will that affect things at the supermarket? >> that could escalate it, that could certainly push it over the to and result in a situation that has just maximum lethality.

it's a new day. in these situations, where the offender monitors the investigation, then we don't have control over all the information, which in a perfect world, law enforcement wants. that we want to have all the control, so the negotiator is at our mercy for getting information. that that's no longer the case. >> let me ask you a quick question about that. having said that, because it's so much more difficult to control the flow of information in into hostage taker situations like this, would you cut off the communication, would you cut off electricity or a cell phone or would that seem too aggressive in a situation like this. >> it's more than likely it will be considered, but it would be done after reviewing all the circumstances in a particular instance and at that time, monitoring the psych tolls and behavior of the offender. the negotiator may make the

decision that they will progressively begin to turn off access to media reports turn offer access to lights, those kinds of things, but it's not done without very careful deliberation, because once you do something like that, it could aggravate the situation exponentially. >> to update our audience, 8:18 east coast time right now. we are watching two major police operations taking place in and around paris. they are negotiating with the two suspects hiding out in a warehouse in dammartin-en-gaulle. nearby charles degaulle airport has closed two runways. the school is about to be evacuated. that's why you are seeing images of the door. 12 buses were brought in to

evacuate all of the students who may be in the line of fire, should there be a police operation, that being what the hostage associator has managed to negotiate and confirm with the two suspecting that are right now holed up inside a warehouse, not far from that school. we're also watching another event that is unfolding right now south of paris where authorities say another gunman believed to be related we don't know what the synopsis is, we don't know the relation between these two incidents. as we are watching this unfold, if you were on the ground right now in paris what would you be telling negotiators on both

instances? >> there would be two different situations. that those dynamics create a very different situation in both instance. one of things that really strikes me is to begin to develop these themes that are going to work with someone that you fear is very suicidal and also could be homicidal. those themes have to be very custom-made to that persons personality and that person's background and to that person's long-term goal. in the case where you have one hostage taker he has a lot of work to do and talk to law enforcement. you want to find out what stress he is under could he be

deteriorating, could he be under the effects of drugs or alcohol. is he becoming more or less pour mid to. you start to do an assessment so you know how to deal with him approximate one of the first jobs is to bring them down or to calm them down, so you can speak in a very logical and coherent way. if they're out of control that's dangerous. in a situation in the warehouse there's already been two hours of time that they've had in the warehouse, and they've already shown that they are minute ma'am to law enforcement by agreeing to let the school children get on buses. that those two dynamics are different. it may not be as erratic and out of control as the one in paris could be at this point. >> former f.b.i. profiler mary ellen o'toole thanks for your insight. we'll call on that you again as there are two police operations, one in eastern paris another

25 miles outside of paris. we are going to join our international coverage with our sister station, al jazeera english. >> the bottom box you are looking at shows you the school where we understand that students are being evacuated. that's according to authorities about 1,000 students are going to be evacuated from local schools by bus there. there is a police presence, and they are supposed to be watching over and taking care of the evacuation of the students from the school in dammartin while the situation continues to go on in the industrial building with the two suspects and police and security investigates have been in dammartin in fact all day. the latest information we ever is that besides the students being evacuated contact has now been established with the two

suspects. let's listen to some of the eyewitnesses from dammartin. >> this morning, i was woken up by the helicopters. that i got up quickly and ran in that direction approximate the police were there and told me to go home right away and stay there, so i turned on the news and called my friends to ask them what was happening. i found there was a hostage situation taking place right behind my house. >> when they came, the helicopters were flying around and i saw them from my window. the police told us to close our shutters and stay inside the house. >> let's bring in remy, an assistant professor joining us here in in dough doha.

>> the porte area is an extremely busy area of paris. we are looking at one of the main exit toward paris to the east heavily pop that late. it's a mixed area in terms of sociology, multiple communities. it's a very popular area, but also with, you know, both -- all communities represented there and there's a mixed area in terms of population. >> people that we've been speaking to ever their own theories about why this would be happening, some say to take off some of the pressure from the two suspects in the situation going on right now. >> he had a track for more than 24 hours to try to catch the suspect at the montrouge event yesterday. i believe they were narrowing

down that person. >> we understand it is the same person that carried out the montrouge situation that is now behind the hostage situation going on. >> it's very important. we're not looking at a third person running around in paris. it will appease the population in paris in less sense of panicking. my biggest worry now is we have a situation in this area. police have been closing down the tram way passing there. there's also a very much used train station metro station there, and we are talking about friday afternoon. it's always a very busy time in paris, in that area. people are going out of their work and offers space toward the

easementern neighborhoods, so the urgency right now is to try to appease the situation in port devincennes. it's much bigger task, that's my biggest worry right now. >> it's interesting that the police have not issued names or photographs of the suspect that they said that they were searching for in connection with the police shooting on thursday and the shooting at the -- the on going hostage taking at the supermarket, the kosher supermarket east of paris approximate in fact, in the last few minutes police have now issued a wanted notice.

that they are circulating photographs and names of two people they say they are looking for. the suspect is a 32-year-old man. this is the man that they claim is the suspect in the killing of a police officer on thursday, and the suspect in this hostage taking at the kosher supermarket. they've also i should a photograph of a young woman who they say is his girlfriend. that they say that they're looking for the man and also his girlfriend. also information that we're getting from the french news agency a.f.p., they are now saying two dead. they are reporting that two people have been killed in this hostage taking incident at the supermarket. i have now the name, as well of the woman who police say that they're looking for hyat, who they say is the girlfriend of the suspect that they are

looking for in relation to this attack this hostage taking attack on the supermarket. reports as i said that we're getting from french media i must cities at the moment, these reports have not been confirmed by police is that two people have been kid. the police had said that the suspect, who they've named they've said he is armed and dangerous. certainly, eyewitnesses of the shooting of the police officer those police officers at montrouge on thursday said that he was armed and wearing a bulletproof vest. at the supermarket in eastern paris now are saying he has two automatic weapons with him. police have given a name and photograph of him and also are looking for a 30-year-old woman they claim is his girlfriend and want to speak to her, as well.

as i said, unconfirmed reports of two killed in that hostage taking incident. >> thank you for the time being. i'll cross to you in a couple of minutes. i want to remind our viewers it's coming up to 13:30g.m.t. you are looking at live pictures right now from france. that two developing, unfolding situations. right there that is porte de vincennes. a gunman has taken hostages in that particular suburb, reporters saying possibly at least five, and he had initially entered a kosher market or a kosher supermarket, so that is a situation unfolding right now in porte de vincennes. also reports that there have

been casualties and at least two people have been killed so far in that you can see from the live pictures there that there is a police presence there and they are trying to get a handle on the situation there that is currently unfolding. at the same time, let's cross over to dammartin. that is north of paris about 40 kilometers north of paris. for the past couple of hours police and security have been surrounding the town of dammartin. that they've also been in the town of dammartin surrounding an industrial building. that is where two suspects, believed to be behind the killings at charlie hebdo headquarters that's the magazine, if you'll recall, that took place on wednesday where 12 were killed. the two suspects have ended up in dammartin after a police chase earlier on friday, so police surrounding that industrial building where the two suspecting are held.

we understand that a hostage has been taken, as well. there is a hostage in that building with the two suspects, and negotiations, as well as contact has been made between police and security forces, and suspects leading to the imminent evacuation of school children. that is the situation going on. we cross over to barnaby.

>> >> the evacuation of the school children unlike the situation unfolding in eastern paris at least here, things are relatively stable for the time-being in the sense that the two suspects are surrounded by heavily armed police. police are saying this situation could last for hours or days. a complicated factor is we believe the two suspects have a hostage with them, but the story here in dammartin has not moved significantly forward over the last hour, two hours or so.

the suspects are very much pinned down where they want them and they are prepared to play a long game as long as they don't feel any hostages life is in jeopardy. that could prompt them to take decisive action they might not otherwise take. >> how is the evacuation and the agreements on the evacuation of the school children came about and what does this tell us about the negotiations going on? >> well, we know that the police and the suspects have been talking to each other now by some means but i think close to some four hours now. the concern of the police was the proximity of the suing the nursery, primary and secondary schools, totaling some 1,000 students in the vicinity of the warehouse, the printing company

warehouse, where the suspects are pinned down. police want to get the school children out. that what we understand from the government officials in dammartin is they made a request or guarantee from the suspects that the school children can be evacuated safely and the suspects agreed to that. that's interesting if we look at how the two suspects have behaved over the last three days. they are very ruthless in their methods but not necessarily in discriminate. they didn't kill women in the attack on charlie hebdo. they tried to rob a garage yesterday morning.

they didn't kill people there. the people they've killed have been officers in uniform and the cartoonists and editorial staff at charlie hebdo. in other words according to their i suppose perverse morality if i can use that word in inverted speech, if you like. there is some sort of code according to which nerve been operating and perhaps that's why they felt that it was appropriate that children should be removed from the vicinity of the siege in dammartin. >> ok, barnaby, thank you for the time being. that crossing back to jacki roland joining us from paris.

gunman have taken hostages in a supermarket. it appears to be a related attack. can you confirm? >> what i can tell you is that police say that the man they suspect of holding hostages right now at a supermarket and eastern paris and the two member police believe are holed up in that warehouse north of paris knew each other. to what extent the attacks against the charlie hebdo magazine, is that the shooting of a police woman an thursday and this hostage taking at the kosher supermarket right now to what extent they were precoordinated to what extend there was any kind of a time table arranged, to what extent they were figured out is not known, but police say they knew each other. they have i should photographs of two suspects who they wish to apprehend in relation to the

supermarket siege that's going on at the moment. they've issued a photograph of a 32-year-old man who they are naming and his girlfriend. they are circulating on that a wanted notice by french police. that police warning the french public that these people are armed and dangerous. in addition to this, we are receiving reports from the french news agency a.f.p. that at least two people have been killed now at that that kosher supermarket in the east of paris, an ongoing situation there, as well. at least five people believed to be held hostage at that supermarket, and as i said, the police have just named the two suspecting who they are accusing of being involved right now of

holding those people hostage at that supermarket in paris. >> the incident behind the supermarket is the same as the incident in montrouge and police have not been naming him up until a few momenting ago. >> the police, rather the prime minister said at quite an early stage in recent event in fact, it was about a day ago said that the police would not be issuing every single piece of information about their investigations for secures reasons and to preserve the integrity of their investigation. clearly police make a calculation when they issue names and photographs of people. in the case of the kouachi

brothers said and cherif, the main suspects in the charlie hebdo shooting, they decided at quite an early stage to issue photographs and names for those men, to engage the public in trying to locate them, and indeed there's been quite a lot of public feedback, phone calls of reporting sightings of those two men which eventually has led to this standoff to dammartin to the north of paris. in the case of this other suspect, who's been named now initially, the police have described and spoken of a suspect. they gave an age of 32, they said that he escaped from the shooting of the police officers on thursday. they even went as far as a few hours ago announcing that they established that this man knew that the kouachi brothers, and yet until about 15 minutes ago had chosen that not to issue either a photograph or a name,

and yet as this hostage taking situation in paris is unfolding we now see the wanted poster being broadcast on french television. they must have had a reason for not wanting to publish his nail. they probably didn't want the man to know that he is the one who was in the frame, if you like. maybe they were hoping that he would be more likely to break his cover again. it's differ to know the motivations behind the release of information but the flow of information is being managed in a way that will best aid their investigations and police are choosing to release information via the french media, also to some of these 24 hour french television news channels. when we call the police

directly, they are more reticent and they clearly have the way in which they choose to release this information and the timing in terms of in some stages maybe seeking to minimize public panic. clearly when the kouachi brothers were on the loose and another suspect on the loose after killing a police woman if the police said straight away we believe these menu each other there would have been panic. they chose to make it public after the time they had the kouachi brothers in lockdown at the warehouse. the extent to which those brothers could inflict a threat to the public at large was minimized. it was only when located and surrounded that the police chose to say that there was a connection to the other suspect. it's important for us to stress that these allegations the police are naming these people a suspect. the police clearly want to

control the narrative here, as well so it's very important that we make it quite clear when we have information whether coming from the police, whether it's coming from local media or whether it's coming from other people, such as eyewitnesses and in some cases local mayors or politicians. >> we are looking at live pictures from porte de vincennes. you can see police vans, as well the area, i'm assuming where the kosher market is, where the hostages have been taken. it appears to be cordoned off. give us a sense of what that area is like. >> porte de vincennes is in the east of paris a busy area, an area where there are shops offices, also residential area. a bit further out, for example

then obviously where the shooting of the charlie hebdo the charlie hebdo offices was far more central in the center of paris approximate porte de vincennes is on the outskirts of paris, a poorer neighborhood, one would say. it's important to stress that paris is a very densely populated city. it's not spread out over such a large geographickical area as say london. you have 6 million people living in a small geographical area. it is dense population. the other thing about paris is there aren't purely commercial or residential areas. shops and offices restaurants and residential is more mixed up approximate you will find people there will be residential blocks as well close to commercial blocks approximate in the case of this area, again

you'll find offices companies as well as private residences, as well. again, we can see from these images how swiftly police moved to cordon off the area after the first reports broke of shots being fired of hostages being taken, very similar scenes, we are looking at here to the scenes we witnessed just 48 hours ago when i and my colleagues were standing close to the offices of charlie hebdo in paris scenes clearly of emergency service vehicles, a lot of police, a lot of police vehicles, also ambulances, of course. i must stress that there have been reports unconfirmed reports coming from the french agency the french agency being one of the channels through which police ever chose to know release information or leak information that two people have been killed so far in the situation at the jewish

supermarket, kosher supermarket in the east of paris. we understand that at least five hostages are being held. obviously there is ambulances there. in the case of news agency reports, there could be casualties or people that need medical attention. also fire services, as well. >> the french emergency services have been stretched to the full, security force and all of those rapid response agencies, ambulance workers paramedics and fire brigade have really been tested to the extreme. that certainly it's worth asking the question about the timing of this attack now in the east of paris. police are claiming that the old perpetrator of this attack, the man they are naming,s suspect they say they want to contact thief published photographers and nails of him claiming that

he knew the kouachi brothers, police are alleging to be the suspects of attackers of charlie hebdo magazine. police claim these people knew each other and questions whether there is an amount of coordinating attacks here. that this is only speculation but these must be the theories police are running through their minds, whether the second attack was deliberate lestaged at a time when the kouachi brothers or suspects in the charlie hebdo killings are being surrounded by police maybe to try to take some of the police, distract them from one scene and bring them to the east of paris. >> jacki roland, thank you. it's just past 13:45 on al jazeera. you are looking at the latest pictures we ever from porte de vincennes, a suburb in the east of paris where we understand

the gunman has taken hostages at a kosher super market in the east. according to some media specifically a.f.p. report that go there have been casualties, at least two people have been killed and five hostages. police have released a photograph behind that hostage taking situation in the east of paris, as well as his two girlfriend so two suspects behind that unfolding situation. that there are the live pictures we ever right now from port did he vincennes in the east of paris.

>> at the same time, in dammartin-en-gaulle, the two suspects believed to be behind the killings at the charlie hebdo headquarters on wednesday in paris have ended up at an industrial building in the town of dammartin. that that is north of paris. for the part couple of hours police have been surrounding that town and been inside that town. we understand negotiations, as well as contact have been made with these two suspects in the industrial building. the two brothers, and in a development, perhaps in that score, students from dammartin who have been holed up in a school there while the situation unfolds, have now been evacuated. they have been been allowed to be evacuated from that school. those are pictures of the school children behind the school door. that there are two situations going on right now right across

france. one in dammartin as we were just telling you and one unfolding right now in the east of paris in porte de vincennes. let's speak to a former officer from the british army. why is what's happening now in the east of paris at porte de vincennes be taking place right now? why now? >> i think they're part of the same cell, so they've operated as he that leally on separate occasions, but they have been shown to be linked already. that's a relief to a degree, because you haven't got several coordinated cells trying to mount different attacks in different places -- >> when you say they have been shown to be linked, can you clarify that? we are told that there seems to be some sort of connection between the suspect at the

hostage taking situation right now going on in the east of paris as well as the two suspects in dammartin. they just seem to know each other. >> yeah, the information on going on is that provided by the media, and the latest information gathered from the media saying there are links established between them. that's a good thing in the sense that we don't have several coordinated attacks taking place under one handler. you've got one instance continuing with the same people. the police, the security forces, the military have cordoned off these areas, they are controlling and containing them and that's going to be their immediately priority, is to contain the areas and to secure them cordon off control what goes in and what goes out

securing the safety of the public. they know these people ever already killed. they have nothing to lose by killing anybody else. there's a fair chance they will want to die and be killed as martyrs by the security forces, so the options that they have probably quite fear. they need to ensure the safety of the hostages, probably by killing the terrorists as quickly as they can. >> that is the real sticking point here, because the situation is very much complicated by the taking of hostages. that's right. these people have already murdered other individuals. it's clear they are not bluffing. they are prepared to kill people. one way is to take them out with

a military sniper. however, the intelligence services would love to have them taken captive to gather information about their handlers and supporters. >> what do the police, what do the security services, the what something the g.i.g.n. do over the next hours? >> they will be performing an immediate action plan if these terrorists start to execute people, they will be prepared to go in at a moment's notice. in the meantime, they will gather information on the buildings, they'll be getting as much intelligence as they can to prepare a more effective plan, if they're given time to do so. >> you spoke earlier on, robin about the connection between the gunman in the east of paris, as well as the two suspects in dammartin. would you say they could be part

of a wider network? >> well, the chances are that part of a wider network but they've been controlled in a cell organization, so they only know the person that schools them. they don't know anybody outside that network. it's an efficient way of operating, because it controls the amount of people that can be controlled by intelligence. >> we'll leave it there for now and cross back to you a little later on. thank you very much for joining us from london. >> you're welcome. >> the french prime minister said it's important for french society to remain active and involved. he spoke a little while ago. >> there have been incredible reactions, very healthy reaction on the parts of society since wednesday, and let is not be

naive. it's through the web, there have been some extraordinary reactions. this reaction by citizens, even if there are unions, political parties, it is a reaction pi the citizens. we must gather around values, values of tolerance and freedom because it's freedom and tolerance that were affected, that they wanted to kill them. that we must go beyond the gathering, the demonstrations on sunday. >> barnaby phillips is joining us from dammartin. he's following the latest development there. barnaby. >> yes things have been relatively calm in dammartin for the last three hours or so. the suspects came to an agreement with the police that

school children could be evacuated where the suspects are we believe with a hostage. they are surrounded. police have the dilemma that there is a hostage compromising their room for maneuver. of course, the concern ever since wednesday morning and after the suspects got away from charlie hebdo the scene of the killings there the fear was more civilian casualties would be involved. they've managed to avoid that until now and they will be relieved obviously that up to 1,000 school children are being evacuated from the immediate vicinity of the warehouse. >> how is it that the evacuation was agreed upon and what does this tell us about the contact that has been made with the two

suspects and any negotiations? well we assume it will be by telephone. that we don't know for sure. it means some sort of dialogue going on, which is good news. trying to work out the mentality of the individuals involved, looking for weaknesses in their position. trying to convince themselves, trying to convince them to give themselves up, perhaps looking to exploit any potential disagreements between the two of them. it's quite possible that there have been differences over the last 48 hours. again, that simply is speculation at this stage. >> barnaby worth just revisiting and reminding our viewers how exactly it got to this point in dammartin.

>> attention focused to this area northeast of paris yesterday morning when in a nearby down, there was that attempted robbery on a garage. we understand that the suspects were looking for pet troll understandably enough and for food both of which they would of course need if they were going to keep on the move. the french police then searched a large area throughout yesterday afternoon and evening in a sort of circle, almost probably a 20 or 30-kilometer radius circle of the area. their hunch or perhaps their information was that the suspects had not got far away. that that hunch it seems was correct. yesterday, they were searching quite a way to the east around a village, and there were reports that the suspects had abandoned a car and headed into a forest.

this morning there was another report that a car had been stolen by the suspects, and perhaps they obtained a new car and were heading down the motor way. perhaps you can see it, back towards paris who knows back towards charles degaulle airport, not far from here. perhaps would be better places from the suspects' point of view to carry out another attack or launch some sort of spectacular operation of some sort, but they went a car chase ensued, police identified the car and the suspect turned offer into the town of dammartin the town you can see on the hill behind me, and that's where they have been ever since. there was a shootout when they initially got into the town, there were reports earlier in the morning that somebody had been killed. those reports have been categorically denied by the french interior ministry.

i think that's important because in these kind of situations, we have to remind our viewers of this, there was an awful lot of information that comes thick and fast, sometimes it's correct and true, sometimes it's not. we have to bear that in mind. >> it is now almost 9:00 eastern time approximate we continue to follow internationally two events developing in and around paris, the first where authorities surrounded those two suspects wanted in connection with those shootings at charlie hebdo magazine. that's in the city of dammartin 25 miles outside of paris. two runways at charles degaulle airport have been closed, students in nearby schools evacuated. barnaby phillips and dana lewis are both on the ground. they say that that was negotiated with the two suspects you see here, brothers said and cherif kouachi have been on the run since wednesday after the killings at the headquarters of charlie hebdo.

>> a connected incident is unfolding at a kosher grocery store in porte de vincennes. there are reports that five have been taken hostages. that there are conflicting reports about whether hostages have been killed. the suspects have been named. >> sadly at this hour, the death toll now stands at 15, 12 people at charlie hebdo that female police officer who was shot and killed and now if reports are verified, and we don't know at this point if this will hold up, there may have been two hostages were killed. we are going to return to our live international coverage of this event in our sister network, al jazeera english. that english. that it seems that there is a double hostage crisis going on