great journalism, find the great stories. if you want a career where you can bring up children, make more money, i don't know what to tell you, except i'm sorry, but it's probably not going to happen. i'm "ali velshi on target". what if everything you have been told about the killing of osama bin laden was a lie. i'll have answers from the former intelligence agency. broken windows, and broken trust, how police crack down on small crime could have big consequences. america needs a smarter war on terror, and pakistan a key ally since 9/11 is accused of playing a double game in its

dealings with al qaeda and the taliban. new controversial allegations from investigative journalist seymour hersch are making some wonder whether much of what the obama administration told you about how osama bin laden was found and killed may be a live. seymour hersch's allegations about the operation that killed osama bin laden are so explosive that once again many are asking is pakistan friend or foe in america's war on terror. seymour hersch is a long-time award winning journalist associated with the new yorker but writes in a piece published in the london review of books, that osama bin laden was not in hidden when u.s. special forces raided his compound in pakistan he was a secret prison are of the pakistani intelligence. senior military leaders knew of the u.s. raid in advance according to hersch and cleared the air space for u.s. navy sale

helicopter to nigh in and conduct a mission unhindered. the c.i.a. found out about his whereabouts through a paid informant, not one of osama bin laden's court yours. -- couriers. those and other allegations contradict the obama administration and pakistani officials. hersch is a legendary journalist covering a massacre of vietnamese citizens by american soldiers and the abuse of prisoners at abu grid. the white house, pentagon and noted intelligence experts denounced the story calling it incredible and thinly sourced. since 9/11 the u.s. funnelled $20 billion in direct aid to pakistan to help it fight the taliban. they view india as a greater threat to national security than

anything that is going on in afghanistan. questions over-pakistan adds role as friend or foe come down to competing interest and pakistan's willingness though engage with groups the u.s. loathe. joining us now is retired pakistani army lieutenant. he served as director of a spy agencies i si. thank you for joining us. here is what he told him. hersch told you this, and you said people like to be told the truth. what you told me is what i heard from former colleagues who have been on a fact-finding mission. is the version of osama bin

laden's killing given by the u.s. government a lie? it's not only hersch's report. there were other studies. a former colleague of mine brigadier general wrote a book and there were a couple of other reports. all talk about pakistan cooperating. cooperating. off the operation was over president obama thanked pakistan for its cooperation. that vanished after it. it's one part of it that so

many are supportive of that. >> let me ask you this. i'm glad you are here discussing this. a wall street journal blog made reference to an interview you this with my colleague at al jazeera initial, and he said: how good are your sources. >> no i do not have many sources. i did it believing that's how the game should be made. obama thinking.

number two, i don't believe despite stealth helicopters i don't believe any government will take that big a risk to fly the helicopters deep in the territory and carry out a mission that was so important that the stakes were so high. these are the bases on which i presented my pieces. i say i do not know what happened. this is my assessment. over a period of tme a number of people came out with facts, with certain arguments that keep reinforcing this hypothesis of mine. >> in april you told al jazeera, that you believed, in your words, that osama bin laden was handed over in exchange for an agreement on how to bring the afghan problem to an end. can you describe what you mean, and what connection there might

have been between handing over osama bin laden, and the u.s. military aid, the hefty aid that is given to pakistan, approximately $20 billion has been handed over from the united states to pakistan since 9/11. that deal was in place, what is the quid pro quo that pakistan would need to make a deal to hand osama bin laden over to the united states. >> exactly what was worked out between the two sides, i do not know. i have no idea. if anything was told to me confidentially, i was not going to talk about it. luckily i do not know. it was my assessment. money can be talked about in different context. that was not the most important thing. when i talked about the front-end game, because it was a big miss at that time, that anything that had to be done was not done properly. that's where the difference between pakistan and the united states started. at that time, to say you'll

leave in any case, before you leave how are we going to wrap up the mess, the grand consensus. that was the more important one the money was not going to play a part. in an interview with india's nbtv, hillary clinton, who was the secretary of state, and now running for president, sites a quote that many from homeland will recognise. let me play it for you much. >> it's like keeping poisonous snakes in your backyard expecting they'll only bite your neighbour. what we see now is the continuing threat to the state of pakistan by these very same elements. >> this is a view that is reflected by the former defense secretary for president george w. bush and president obama's robert gates, that pakistan should not be considered an ally by the united states in the

fight against al qaeda. you ran the i.s.i. you know the players and the structure, can the united states trust pakistan in the fighting of extremism? >> i don't think the countries trust each other. and there is never a need for that. if there is a common interest they can work together, if you are talking about my time, when the soviets were there, you worked together well. cooperation was not working. if we talk about this period in post 9/11. except for a first couple of years, i don't think pakistan and the united states were in agreement how to proceed with the so-called war on terror, which means how do we handle afghanistan. that's the difference. >> are you worried what hillary clinton said in the quote. if you keep snakes in the backyard, they may bite you, not your neighbours. >> people made the political statements, i never made up

attention to that. i look at the situation on the ground. it started to change after the famous or infamous incident. remember in 2011, when the americans killed 22 of our soldiers. we seized, we stopped, we blocked the lines of communication for seven months. after that the two countries worked together. we belong to the region. what happens in afghanistan affects us differently than it does the united states. thank you for joining us, the former director-general of pakistan's i.s.i. and a retired lieutenant general in the pakistani army coming up, police cracking downon petty crimes to prevent serious offences. the tactic helped to clean up new york city, but at what cost. "on target" back in 2 minutes.

the broken window policy of policing gained prominence in new york in the 1990s. it's a zero tolerance to crime cracking town on minor offenses to prevent bigger crime. with the deaths of eric garner in staten island and freddy gray in baltimore, critics charged the policy unfairly targetting minorities, creating distrust. in every police department and twice in new york. hoe said in works and critics have it wrong. one even two years ago 17-year-old dion flood and his girlfriend squeezed through a turnstyle at the new york subway

on the swipe of a fair card. they committed a crime called turns style jumping. less than an hour later flood was battered, semiconscious and on his way to the hospital. >> his whole body was swollen. he had a wrap around his head where the wound was, he had a brace on his net and shackles on the bottom of his feet why shackle? >> because he was under raft. >> and n.y.p.d. reports two officers watching from a nearby trash room had stopped the two teens. flood had had run-ins with the police before. his mum said a judge warned him the next time he would be tried as an adult. >> he took off running, sprinting down the platform and jumped on the tracks, where he was hit by a train. his mother said he told her a different story. >> he was saying that "mum, i did not get hit by a train", one of them said "you want to run, we'll make sure your arse never run again", they stomped on him.

he was "okay, okay" to get them to stop. >> he died two months later. his mum is suing the city, a spokesman says the city has no comment. >> reporter: do you think your son would be alive if it was not a criminal offense to not pay your fare? >> yes. >> reporter: what do you think about the argument that when someone runs, they have something to hide. >> he didn't want to be arrested. i don't think it's an offense to go to gaol over. the police officers said it, they are on the hunt for certain individuals. >> reporter: what kind of individuals? >> black individuals. [ chanting ] the deaths of unarmed black men at the hands of police officers sparked protests against police practices, like

the zero tolerance and the broken strategy. both crackdown on petty crime crackdowns to prevent serious crime. >> i have seen first hand all >> i have seen first hand all the negative impacts. >> activists like justine alderman say there's no proof broken windows helps to lower crime in new york. >> the types of offenses i see every day in the courthouse in south bronx are not the offenses that are policed in rich, affluent white neighbourhoods. being in the park after dark, or riding your bicycle on the street corner. >> new york city focuses attention in minority areas. >> johnny is a former new york police officer. >> they claim this is where all the crime is taking place, which may have some truth to it. however, when you get to the point where all you are doing is writing summonses, writing summonses, making arrests,

without working with people, it's like an army of occupation. it does more harm than good. >> new york's police commissioner credits broken window making the city a safer place. it works, it's essential. it will in new york city. robberies, shootings and murders hit lows, and arrests for misdemeanours like trespassing have fallen over the last few years. do you think minorities have been targeted. why are more arrested? >> the reality is we live in a majority. you are not going to see it at any point in time, a majority being arrested. >> the n.y.p.d. says more than 80% of people arrested for misdemeanours are afri but make up half the population. the debate prompted the speaker to call for reforms.

melissa told community leaders in east harlem she wants to treat minor offenses like littering and turnstile jumping like parking violation, not crimes, that can keep the minorities out of the system. >> we cannot continue to lock up those accused of low level offences without recognising dire long-term consequences to them and our city. >> in response bratton is offering his own proposal. keep treating low level offenses as crimes, but give officers discretion to make rests or issue warnings and fines. >> it is emotional when they brought him to me. >> reporter: karen flood says bratton's

proposal may have helped young black men like her son. >> they are too eager to throw the teenager's life away. >> if police don't reach out more to communities like hers, tensions rise. >> my heart hurt, it still hurt. >> it's a sad story that a man is dead after jumping a turnstile. people will look at this from a macro perspective asking if this works. is broined the kind of thing that brings crime down? >> commissioner bratton tells you yes and told al jazeera it's a combination of factors. broken windows is a factor. but cited compstat, a method used to map crime. there's a number of other factors. they point to more police on the streets, fewer young people, the economic boom of the 1990s, and it's a rise in the rate of incarceration. that is a point that is debated. >> seems like the conversation can go two ways, how the police handles it, and the second is what the new york city council

speaker says, why not decriminalize some of these things, make them like a parking ticket. what can you criminalize to stop people doing wrong things, but those that don't want a criminal record, running from these and getting into problems. >> there is a number of things, mino offenses that the city speaker wants to decriminalize, and they include like riding the bike on the side walk, drinking in public, being in the park after disturbing, urinating in public. there's seven or eight offenses she want decriminalized. if you want to know about policing, talk to a police officer. we talk to a flavor that used broken windows on this beat and it does work. we are back in 2 minutes.

there are a lot of opinions about broken windows policing. a man that believes in the approach says he knows it works because he used it as a police officer for more than 20 years. john shane was on the force in clifton and newark new jersey, and is an associate professor at

john j college of criminal justice, up the street. thank you for being with us. i think we can separate - there's two discussions - whether or not we should have the broken windows policing, the idea of stopping things before they get out of hand, arrest or charge people, do what you have to do with people committing what we consider petty crimes. then there's the separate conversation that she showed us about what sometimes happens to people that are arrested. this fellow we talked about was beaten, eric garner is dead. some are not injured, but they end up with criminal records and affects employability and prospects in life. where do you come down. >> there's a couple of things. tactics and strategy are separate things. as a strategy, it has its place, research suggests that it's fine, it's been validated. there's research that suggests there could be a rise in citizen complaints. that is a trade off.

it happens between keeping the city safe and identifying what you want in terms of a quality of life. society has to place a judgment on what it wants from the police force, does it want to tolerate the petty nuisances, affecting every day, affect ing home values, use of public parks and spaces. in 1982, when i was in high school coming to new york city in 1992, you go to times square it was a circus . >> a different place, yes. >> disney now has a store. you want to talk about the transformation, it began with identifying and looking at quality of life issues which are wrapped around things like urinating in public, selling loose cigarettes outside where a merchant is trying to make a living, prostitution, homeless people sleeping - all the social tactics are a story, you talk that police bear the brunt of.

tactics are a story, you talk about what happens when police makes physical contact with people in the field. that looks at things like whether they use force, the demeanour, all the intersction and interpersonal skills elicit a reaction from someone else, if the police start in with heavy-handed tactics and come down on the side of talking to someone in abrasive fashion, they'll be met with resistance. if they are there with other officers and explain what it is that needs to be done, why they can't do the thing and they are given an alternative like move along else it will result in a fine. >> as we heard, everyone agrees, whether you sign up for the idea that broken windows works, this is something police need more training on, including here in new york. how you deal with a person when you encounter them. >> true. >> let's accept that, i take that at face value, what about the damage that this policing does to relationships between

police and communities, because we have seen that these things tend to be deployed in minority communities more than in white communities. >> police officers, as a matter of strategy, deployment strategy, police have to go where the complaints are and where conditions exist. if they exist in nonwhite areas, that's where the police have to address the issues. it's those issues that will largely spire at out of control. a great example is what happened in newark over the weekend. there was a mother's day event in the city, that has been going on for years, it's fine, there has been no problem. what happened after that is the crowd were out of control, grew rowdy, and it was from that rowdy crowd that the shooting occurred. that's the kind of thing where policing need to take a stand . >> got it. are we comfortable in drawing a conclusion that a guy that jumps a turnstile could end up with a gun and opens it up to the crowd. >> the reason i say yes is that has proven itself in the 1990s, when this strategy unfolded

under bratton the first time around, when jack maple was here, and they got into the transit system and stopped people for turnstile violations and fair invasions, they were carrying knives, wanted on warrants, and carried guns. muggings and robberies went down. that's a correlation. >> let's go back to 2002, criminologist put out a paper talking about lowered homicide rates in cities that did not noticeably alter policing policies, i'm bringing it up because that's the time period they are talking about. we have places like san diego. in most places across america crimes went down. some cities instituted broken windows as new york did. our policing is better all round. police have better sense of where crimes will occur. i say that from a research perspective.

it's something i study and am involved in all the tame. -- time. it's disentangling the social effects and organizational effects is not easy. all the other cities that you mentioned, i think i'm referencing the studies had a strategy under way. . >> that's correct, you are right about that. they were all doing something. everyone was taking some approach to different policing. many of them resulted in lower crime rates. we'll go to ferguson, missouri, where we found out the police were stopping lots of young black males, giving them fines, they couldn't pay them, there were three warrants. at some point, are we creating a system where we are criminalizing behaviour? >> well, look, there's a possibility the answer is yes, and i - i couch my statement in terms of what was that strategy linked to. were they just generating revenue for the city, or was someone behind the scenes analysing the data in what we call intelligence led policing.

the disorder conditions wrapped around traffic and kids that are out on the street, and people on the sidewalk, is that linked to something else with imperial evidence behind you. if the answer is no, you have to take a step back. >> i'm with you on this. john shane with the criminal college of justice. tweet me. let me know what you think the right balance is. that is the slow for today. i'm ali velshi - thank you for joining us.

>> this week on "talk to al jazeera" - john lydon lead singer of "the sex pistols" - the band that ignited a punk rock revolution. >> pain, suffering, the disenfranchised, unnecessary poverty, class warfare, all of these issues bother me greatly. >> he was a man who generated headlines and controversy. famous, of course, for his hit "god save the queen". >> [singing] god save the queen, the fascist regime.