in tonight's debate billions are believers, we ask does religion do more harm than good. in panel with i.s.i.l. threatening attacks, should washington impose war-time censorship on the internet plus, is president obama trading decades of long-standing ties in the middle east for a questionable deal with iran. kevin durant faiza patel, and travis smiley will be here. i'm "the guardian", and this is "third rail" -- i'm imran garda

and this is "third rail." >> there'll never be peace or compromise. people will kill each other's children... >> what astonishes me is how many problems are the direct result of what people believe about god. >> in any holy book you can see something that validates anything. >> like suicide bombing into skyscrapers. >> it's hard to find anything other than religion causing a decent person to do atrocious things. >> a world but religion gave us hitler, and poewe pot and others. >> that's the way we are wired. >> if you want to find a system encouraging people to be better. worldwide, consistently, the only one we have is religion. >> we have atheist department of transportation, and larry alex

taunton, executive director of the christian based fixed point foundation as our guests thank you for joining us. larry alex taunton, does religion do more harm than good? >> depends on the religion it's a bread question. christianity, i believe, brings much good to the table. >> like what? >> the data suggests the average evangelical, for instance, gives 10 times the amount of money and time as the average atheist. i am sure that dan is well up the list on that. but they bring a lot of good ben ef lens to a culture. >> so ben esso lens to a culture, religion does more good than harm. particularly larry alex taunton's religion. daniel dennett? >> i believe christianity does a lot of good for many people. many need it. we should honour and try to

preserve that. it does harm christianity as well. i think the harm these days - don't look at the past that's atrocious - but if you look at christianity today, to me the big problem with it is the systematic hypocrisy, the way in which it encourages people, obliges them to lie, and it valorizes hypocrisy, and irrationality in a way that is really detrimental. >> how? >> well when people use faith as an excuse for not thinking, and it seems to me that faith is a gold-plated excuse not to think. problems are difficult, and the answers from your faith is simple, and it's wrong. >> larry alex taunton, in the atlantic you wrote that atheists fascinate you - i'm glad you do you have one next to you - but

you said you consider their philosophy potentially in my viewee and dangerous. dan is dangerous. >> i don't think dan is dangerous. my point is every aith yist is dangerous. but when i look on the 20th century, an experiment in secular government. what i see is 130 million dead at the hands of secular regimes, suggesting that it is indeed dangerous. it's more than all religious wars in all centuries combined. >> the 20th century needed more religion daniel dennett, not secularism. >> the regime spoken of took their lessons from religion, and turned to stalin and hitler. to call them aith yist regimes is a little much. they basically put forward r.e.m.ageous doc prince -- religious doctrines and cut

their followers, enraptured by their brand of religious rhetoric. >> they had idea yoingies. -- idea yoingies. >> it was different from the atheist that i am or the new atheist movement. we are not ideologues we believe in rationality and imperial evidence. >> what about taking larry's point and applying it to say, china today, right, where the tibetans face cultural destruction. >> yes. >> wiger mousse limbs face destructions, you wouldn't justify that? >> no, i wouldn't. >> satisfied. >> i would put it that which, of the two world fuse aith yist and christian world few, which restrains impulses and which

exacerbates them. as a christian i'm oblige said to treat you as people made in the way of god. >> whether we want to be viewed that way or not? >> yes, regardless whether you are a member of my community. >> atheists are moral people, they don't need a scripture to come from. >> where does it come from? >> from us people. who are better judges of what is right and wrong than we, the people. some book says that something else is right and we believe that. >> mao was of the opinion that killing 40,000 to 70,000 because he didn't belief there was a god in the next life to judge him for his actions. >> that's not why he did what he did, i am sure. i don't see a relationship between mao's rein of terror

and his disbelief. >> larry alex taunton, let's have a look at some contemporary trends if you like, evangelicals in places like uyanda treading homophobia. is that just final. >> i can't speak to uganda politics. >> it's not about that it's americans spreading their role on the take of christianity to places like uganda. >> i can't speak to what dose gone in uganda... >> is it right or wrong. >> christians take scriptures seriously and it speaks about homosexuality. the way in which that is played out in uganda i can't say. >> persecuting homosexuals is okay because... >> no, i didn't say that. it's the teaching of christ, that we treat etch regardless

of -- everyone, regardless of whether or not they agree with us whether they are heterosexual or homosexual as an infinite value individual. >> superceding the text that says you may need to persecute them. >> christians do not believe in persecution. >> is it wrong? >> it's wrong to persecute someone. >> is it wrong to happen in places like uganda. >> i don't know what is going on there. i think it's wrong to persecute. to your general point it's wrong to persecute in the name of jesus christ. >> is this some of what you are talking about? >> it is, and i have to say the eadvantage illists, how they move into africa and other countries, it's like tobacco countries, now they are wise to smoking they sell their products... >> but tobacco countries don't

build schools. >> that's true. but spreading religion to people that are straight is an easy cell. >> reporter: they do a lot of good work in africa to fight g h.i.v. aids orphanages. >> let's add up the good and sub tract the value. >> that's what we are trying to do. >> i admit they do a lot of good. they can do the same good whout prophetizing and i think that's unfortunate. >> don't ath exists prophetize as well. the billboards book sales, if you like. >> we don't tell anybody that they are going to hell if they don't join us. >> right. >> we don't make it a condition of anything that they believe us. we lay out our reasons and let them decide. >> i want to ask the question is it only about other problems of religion stepping from fundamentalism. from rotten apples

cherry-picked interpretations of religion, and not religion itself? >> i think religion itself lays a foundation for that. this is by encouraging and respecting a certain amount of irrationality. and certain claims beyond criticism, and making it a moral obligation not to criticize the doctrines, not to question them creates an atmosphere that makes fundamentalism possible. i think that is - i would lay that at the doorstep of every religion. in fact, one of the painful paradoxes for good, wise liberal human community religion in america is that the people that give religion a good name have to recognise it in doing it that they provide colourizition for the bad

solution. and as i said if the mafia built schools and hospital we'd thing of them a misunderstood organization. >> is religion the mafia. >> bad religion yes. >> what about within this county in europe and this country, perhaps we might not have seen the abolition of slavery if it wasn't for fundamentalist christians quakers and others. >> perhaps not. >> civil rights movement. >> yes but you have to remember for all the good that the churches did in furthering civil rights. they were fighting against christian churches in the south that were working for segregation. >> that doesn't undo the fact that every meaningful reformed movement in the west has been motivated by judeo christian world few... >> every movement.

>> meaningful reform movement. >> yes. >> throughout the world. >> i said in the we were world. has judeo christian world few with abolitionism and throe. >> how about gay marriage. >> i don't consider that to be a legitimate civil right. >> there we go. >> evangelical christians - of course they are going to get on bard with something like that, because it's counter to what they believe marriage, defined a particular way from millennia, dan, is. so christians have been driving while atheism has not been known. >> pause it here you don't believe gay rights are a civil right. >> i do not belief in - i don't believe in gay marriage. do i believe someone can have the right. they can choose to have any union they like. do i believe, however, that that is a moral rite? as an evangelical christian, i'm

not of the view that homosexuality is right in the eyes of god. so no. >> that's a faith-based position. >> yes. >> the evidence, department of transportation... >> absolutely -- the evidence, daniel dennett... >> absolutely. >>..shoes >>..shows it's innate for people. >> absolutely. it shows for hundreds of years people have been kicking and screaming by secular movements. >> that is not so. it is out of a christian world view that your science is born. it's out of a christian world view that the government is born or ethics or morality. >> wouldn't aristotle plato or charles darwin disagree with that. >> they may well. >> you don't think a judeo christian world view is fundamental to western culture.

>> historically it played an important role. i'll give you this much. religion served as a nurse crop. that is it provided a certain stability. >> i'll take a break now. coming up, we ask if islam does more harm than the other religions do. stay with us. >> people can point to verses in the koran, these verses are the reason we i.s.i.s. >> are they reading text. >> maybe it's because there was an invasion and occupation of iraq. >> later on. >> there are some extremist right wing jews calling for websites. i go on websites and stand up against them. >> if i go on to a radical website. i'll get on a watch list. >> and in the third rail we find

what it's like to be a refugee at sea. >> authorities didn't want us to spam to them. >> libya is easy they have no problem killing people that's why all of us came here.

is islam, a violent religion. >> it's built on prejudice, injustice and inhumanity. >> when you watch the room, it's not christian terrorists. >> al qaeda, boko haram, hezbollah, hamas. >> all in name of religion you put it in the name of our religion. the western press puts it in the name of our religion. >> islam does not just avoid violence but lays a foundation for a profound societal peace. welcome back. let's bring in imam zaid shakir founder of zaytuna college. the first liberal arts college in the united states. thank you for joining us. is violence in the name of religion more prevalent in islam in this day and age.

>> depends how you define islam. people that fly a plane into a building can claim they are muslim and do it in the name of islam. i recall in the introof this programme mentioning that islam encourages suicide bombing. suicide and murder the cause in the consequence of the suicide bombing, the suicide and the murder are vehemently forbidden in islam. people can perceive on the one hand or claim on the other hand that their motive or islam particularly but we need to step back and analyse the true motivations. humans are motivated in any action by a complicated formula. in many instances religion might be part of that value.

>> for al-qaeda ore i.s.i.l. it's a main value, they are religious. >> they claim to be reliageo, i would say they are more ido logs, and the claims to religion are a religion that doesn't accommodate for the religion including islam, that they have promoted such as patiently and dignity enduring oppression. working through common shared values such as the sanctity of innocent life to solve your problems in ways that are governed by certain parameters. >> like christianity has a bloody history, islam has it's not just a 21st history. >> i would say it's not true. >> the crusades, spanish inquisition. >> i would be delighted to go through all of these, the

spanish inquisition is not christian. in much that i here violence being done in the name of islam is not consistent as i understand him with truize lambic teaching. jesus christ -- true islamic teaching. jesus christ teaching was against violence. >> you guys are not in agreement. >> i say if i reach across the table and hit you and say i'm a christian, it's not done in jesus christ's name. >> you can look at actions, we say religion plays a part. islam plays a part. people can point to verses in the koran. that's the reason we have i.s.i.s. the verses were in the koran throughout the 20th century, modern history, it doesn't

prevent muslims, christians jews in various places from living together. >> i.s.i.l. is reading their text too closely. >> maybe it's because there was an invasion an occupation of the iraq that tore apart the social fabric of that county and in the ensuing hell something hellic like i.s.i.s. emerged. i'm not saying u.s. performed policy alone, but i'm saying these things don't occur in a vacuum. you can't say i.s.i.s., all of a sudden they woke up and discovered the violent versus in the koran and all hell broke out. >> bear with me for a second. a couple of days ago another secular blogger was hacked to death in blank, there was no -- bangladesh, there's no u.s. policy. >> i don't think there's a sane muslim that would endorse or prove it. >> that was done in the name of islam. >> a lot of things are done in the name of muslim. like i said i don't think a

sane muslim on this planet would encourage, endorse or approve that action. >> to me it seems the main problem with religion can be simply illustrated. if larry here decided i'd convinced him and he announced he was no longer a christian, he'd break hearts in his family but he wouldn't fear for his life. on the other hand if you, as an imam said "i lost my faith, i'm no longer a muslim", you would be in serious danger would you not. >> i don't think i would be in any more danger. >> really. >> tomorrow if i did that than i was yesterday. >> it's interesting that muslims around the world are afraid.... >> can a muslim change his religion. >> i'm not a muslim around the world, i'm a muslim in the

united states of america and you are talking to me here in the united states of america. putting the situation in context is important. i can do it in malaysia turkey i could probably do it in most places not all places and... ..a lot of times they are sensationalized individual case, and are role. >> there are countries where apostizeies are punishable by death. >> how often do people aposty size. >> how often would they if they didn't know they'd be killed? >> it's well known. these are usually highly sensational cases. >> i want to ask you about the context. we see in a place like myanmar, the country coming out. and we see people who are considered the most peaceful on

earth. buddhist monks attacking a minority who happen to be a muslim. doesn't it suggest that they are on to something. if they put the right kind of raw materials materials in there, the issues and stir it around you can extract violence out of anyone even the buddhist monks, it's not about the belief system. >> i suppose there are conditions when almost anyone could be made intoxicated enough by something, so they commit acts of violence, it's just that religion has a monopoly. >> it has an monopoly if anything an atheist does can be attributed to religion if that's the way we approach things, yes. religion has a monopoly. when it is rely imious because we want to protect the good name and image ofated yix. -- image of aith yix. >> in 2050, looking ahead,

there's a pew poll saying that muslims will be equal to christians in terms of numbers globally. they may be slightly more, if the plummeting rates of christians leaving the religion conditions. conditions. -- continues. how does it make you feel? >> i don't have a response. it doesn't make me feel good or bad. i'm not particularly alarmed by the data as it relates to this. in many instances, islam is growing at the points of a gun. >> where? >> well i think i.s.i.l. is making is great men converts in this way. i don't think this is a manner in which christianity is it spread. so i'm not particularly concerned. again you are forgetting about the crusades. >> i'm not sure what your point is about the crusades. >> the spread of christianity domination of lands.

>> i suggest it's the hijacking of religion. >> sanctioned by the highest authorities at the time. >> in what way, shape or form was it christian, or consistent with the teaching of christ? not at all. >> let me give larry encouragement. for every one person i.s.i.s. might force into islam at the point of a gun it chases 40, 50 or 100 muslims out of islam because of a repugnant approach to life. >> i'm delighted to hear that. >> i think you are right about that and i think the pugh study extrapolates into the future. and i am sure that they are making one big mistake. the new transparency in the world means that muslims all over the world they are raising muslim children but they are not going to raise the muslim children the way they've been raised in the past.

and they'll think for themselves. >> that sounds almost like a fate-based hope that you have. >> no we are seeing it everywhere. >> i have to wrap. we have run out of time. i have to wrap. thank you. and a handshake out of it as well. thank you so much gentlemen. executive director of the christian based fixed point foundation. daniel dennett co-director for zaytuna college, zaid shakir. larry alex taunton from fixed point foundation. thank you all. "third rail" panel is next. >> he managed to succeed and alienate every country. no one likes the middle east except the iranians. >> they don't like each other.

welcome back to "third rail." we debate whether religion does more harm than good. let's broaden out the conversation to the presidential

elections with travis smiley most and managed tore on pbs, his latest back "my journey with mia" about a poet. faiza patel, from the liberty and national security programme, and an al jazeera contributors and professor alan dershowitz a boston globe contributor, and author of "terror tunnels." why is it that u.s. presidential candidates have to be religious christians or claim to be religious christians and play the came to be collected. >> one you are assuming it's a game as opposed to a faith of choice. >> is it a faith of choice? >> for most it is numbers bar it out. having said that there's ag nostizism in a bit of all of us we all have questions. i don't think it's a game. i think they play politics with

our fate in campaigns. most of these persons running for office are persons of faith. >> there's a pew poll finding 50" of americans are less likely to vote. that means more americans support sun who never had office. is gay, in their '70s or all of the above. what does that tell you? >> that america has been rooted in cristiology, that means for the average american that assist something about this that the candidate can believe in trust, that roots or grounds them at their best. i don't believe that is the case for all people because they say their christians but there's something about the notion that appeals to the better anning else on all of us. >> rooted in cristiology, is there separation between state and person. >> before we get to the first

amendment, a substantive limitation is no religious text will be applied. for office upped the united states -- under the united states. to vote for a person based on religion or non-religion is fundamentally un-american. >> but it happens. >> of course because we love hypocrites, we want people to be hypocrites, to proclaim their devotion to religion, we don't care - we are a little fearful of people that are too religious. >> i'm right when i say it's a game. >> i think it's a game. it's a game in which hypocrisy rules, and it's a dangerous game. it's like the administrations process to harvard law school. to get in you have to say you want to be a public were lawyer, when everyone knows you are going to be a commercial lawyer. the first thing we ask students at harvard to do is lie, and i think we do it with the presidents.

>> i'm not sure. i was looking at the poll, coming back to president obama who, as you know, has been dogged by stories that he is a closet muslim. at one point polling showed 18% of americans thought he was muslim. what is interesting is more than a third of americans don't demo what religion president obama is yet he's been elect president twice. that tells you something a little different. >> we don't know the religion but we know the church. that was a bad thing. i have to tell you. it's for me what tipped the balance against him, and for hillary clinton, when i supported her. i don't believe that you can willingly sit at the feet of a bigot like reverend wright, listen to him, have your children listen to him year after year and not have that have some impact on an evaluation of you. that's a bad thing to have done.

>> i don't want to get into a debate about jeremiah wright much the last thing america needs. i will say i disagree that he is a bigot. having said that. the question becomes when someone is running for office, if they don't but the faith out front, declare that they are connected to something bigger than themselves. what we crave and need this america - we talked about dr king before we came on the set - if one craves moral leadership, one can argue whether there's political leadership in washington. if you diplomat put your faith out front, how do you convince voters that you believe in something that life is bigger than you and the presidency and you can provide a moral leadership. >> i think religion is more than belief. when someone says "i'm jewish who knows what that means. it's part of an ethnicity,

culture, and i think christianity is part of a culture too. one of the reasons that people suspected president obama is because he didn't seem - no one questioned his faith. >> they certain did. 18% of americans thought he was muslim, for god's sake. >> i understand that, they were thinking that he has kenyan roots, family that was for many religion is not what you believe, but what you were brought up in, what your parents were. it's beyond theology. america is not a particularly theo logical country. the christianity of america is a civic religion. >> it gets back to your question about the gamesmanship. i don't believe that most americans in their heart of hearts that heard the president say repeatedly look in the camera saying i'm a christian. whether you agree that jeremiah

wright sat in the same church, married a christian. this is where the game comes in if you can put the label on him, you can distract voters. moving on the foiled attack in gallen texas featured two muslims encouraged by i.s.i.l. over social media, sending many to wonder if the government is doing enough to stop i.s.i.l. online propaganda. >> i.s.i.l. claims to gain influence in the united states. >> online magazines, use of social media, designed to target youth online. >> hundreds of thousands of terrorists were recruited over the internet. >> gunmen contacted a member of al-shabab via twitter much. >> it raises questions as to what can be done at home. faiza patel, should the u.s. government put a stop to this some of this and cutting the cord to social media incitement if you like to stop i.s.i.l.'s

propaganda. >> there's a couple of things you are talking about when you say stop i.s.i.l. propaganda. >> twitter accounts shut them down. >> exactly. shut down accounts twitter, take posts off facebook - that's some of the things people say. i don't think they should do that. it's ipp effective. anyone you talk to who deals with the technologies or platforms. the minute you take one off. there'll be another one. >> whaka moll. >> exactly. it's not a useful way for the government to inspected its time. each though it's not useful governments spend time doing it they don't talk about it. there are complaint mechanisms available. >> al qaeda's magazine is called

"in spire" people are being inspired. they were foiled. what if someone gets inspired by i.s.i.l. accounts and blows something up? >> i have no down there's direct causal relation between what is on social media and some people. free speech is not free. it's very very expensive. it takes an enormous toll. we have to do a better job combatting it. we have to get on social media. >> who is we? >> the private sector folks that feel strongly about freedom of speech and hate the idea of terrorism. and, i think, reasonable moderate muslims have to be on muslim websites showing an alternative. i do that. there's jews calling for voim. i go on -- violence. i go on i go on and beat them

in debates. >> here is the dips between you and me. if i go on to a radical muslim website. i'll get on a watch list. >> why. geller is on a watch list. >> i don't know about geller i know i'll cabinet on a watch list. >> you mean an american watch list. >> yes. >> not if you go on as an men anti-person. >> that we can change. if we made sure you never cotton a watch list would you go on the islamic website and would you make the argument against i.s.i.s. and irrelevant d religious... >> i'm effective in going against i.s.i.s. and so are many muslims in the country. the idea that we are suddenly going to empower moderate

muslims, when you don't know what the websites are, they don't know what to say in response to those people. >> we are finding it on twitter feeds. >> how is it twitter mainstream. >> it's an interesting point you made, alan dershowitz you mentioned pamela get geller, she should have freedom of speech. >> that's not a close question whether we support what she says is a ditch issue. >> you got stick for using her name and mlk's name. >> i said it deliberately. i don't make a moral comparison between her and martin luther king, but martin luther king chose cities that he knew his march holding hands with a white woman or man would provoke reactions. he wanted to approach okay rehabilitation. >> it provoke's people to blow things up.

>> it stops the people blowing them um not from provoking. >> let me add two things, if i can. one, the professor is right. we have to be diligent and vigilant about what we need to do as americans. it is not lost to me that one of these people were on the watch list back in 2006. and the fact this they lost touch with this person from 2006 until now, underscores a failure of u.s. intelligence people not doing their work. it's a simply point that needs to be made. >> it's interesting to me about how we love hypocrites. we were not having - i remember this distinctly. we were not having the conversation about whether or not the government ought to shut down twitter accounts. i can give you a number of other examples. >> social media. >> social media was around, some guys were online facebook,

saying what they would do. we were not having the conversation. when it come again to islam, muslims, we want to have a conversation about how far the government ought to go but it was not existent a few years ago. >> federal agents said social media would make it tougher to track i.s.i.l. internet traffic can be useful. it's an interesting story. some years ago there was a website. saying how many people can you kill in the holocaust. it appeals to the neo-nazis. many civil rights organizations say it's terrible. according to the story, it was put out by the mossad, bringing them in destroying their record. you never know if it's a good thing. it's both good and bad, like religion. it's like religion.

let's shift to religion is america risking partnerships with key allies over a deal with iran. tensions led to diplomatic repercussions. >> the new king of saudi arabia a no show at president obama... >> summit of gulf state leaders... >> president obama calls a meeting to discuss concerns with neighbour iran. >> some see it as a key message of an ally upset with president obama's poll sits. >> binyamin netanyahu upset about what he hearse about a nuclear deal with iran. >> is it worth burning relationships in the middle east with allies over a deal with iran alan dershowitz, do you think president obama is destroying existing relationships by this deal. >> yes, i think it's the worst foreign policy blunder. what he is doing is endangering strong alliances in the middle east, the saudis, emirates jordan egypt, israel on a

speculation, a bet that may be he can bring iran in from the cold. the likely result is nuclear proliferation,al the saudi arabia counties getting nuclear weapons, more guns weapons, planes in the middle east and more risk, and for what. the answer is there's no alternative. if he doesn't take the deal sanctions will fail. he's right, he put us in that position. it's not the choice we have now, but how we got to that choice. >> he's talking to them. this is how it happens. >> that's what happened when chamberlain talked to the nazis. >> that's god win's law invoking the nazis. >> you invoke history or look at north korea, or pakistan. >> you are worried about proliferation and violence. you wrote a book justifying israel the fourth largest

military in the world. nuclear armed, justifying their killing of 1,500 civilians, you wrote a book justifying that. >> no i justified acts of defense tape by the israelis -- taken by the israelis against people. hamas that want to see civilians die. they have a dead baby strategy they talk about it putting the civilians in harm's way. giving israel the choice. or firing and killing multiple civilians, that's what i justify israel's rehabilitation. -- reaction. >> you know where alan dershowitz stands on this. >> we could have another debate about this. >> is president obama hurting the alliances about a potential deal with iran. >> king once said it's either nonviolent co-existence or violent co-annihilation.

i come down on the side of diplomacy. a famous quote - who do you make peace with other than your enemies. you have to talk to the people. >> i agree. >> and figure out a way to solve the crisis. richard hart has a peace, the error of disorder. and i love that phrase. in the middle east we are lying in an era of disorder. every decision we make will offend someone. there's no easy answer. >> to diane derzis's point that -- to alan dershowitz point, every deal iran wants we want, maybe a bit more, is he right. >> he nation sa god point. diplomacy, whether we talk about iran saudi arabia any other country has to be the answer to

the crisis. >> i agree. >> and any decision we make offends someone. that ought not stop us. >> that ought not allow us to abrogate responsibility. >> he managed to succeed in alienating every country in the middle east. the palestinians don't like him. egyptians don't like him. nobody likes him in the middle east. (all talking at once). >> they don't like each other. >> they like france better they are getting in there now. >> there's an age of disorder. you have to accept an age of disorder. authoritarian regimes don't go easy. the countries have not built institutions, so the idea that we flip a switch and it will be spring time is naive. it's obvious some of the united states allies disagree that this is a good deal.

does that mean that we are not going to talk to egypt. are we not going to talk to israel. >> of course we will. >> will we not be friends with the saudis? >> of course not. we have strategic interests with the countries that we'll work with. >> the unspoken truth we have to admit this not on camera is u.s. foreign policy is schizophrenic. and they shift like the wind. on a given year with a given administration alliances and relationships shift we have to wrap. thank you so much. thank the panel. travis smiley faiza patel, and alan dershowitz. straight ahead - would be refugees forced to plunge into the sea, desperate for rescue from a seining ship -- sinking ship. i talk to a reporter that had their stories in a field note story.

>> you realise the longs journey that the people make and how difficult. and we see them disembarking. a powerful moment for the whole team.

it has been called a colossal humanitarian catastrophe by the major of catania sicily. many migrants made the journey across the mediterranean sea, more than 1800] perished. each week "third rail" will catch up with an al jazeera cornt from wherever they may be to get the story behind the story, to share their experience that you rarely get to hear. stephanie debor -- dekker has

been there reporting on the migrant crisis. you have seen thousands of migrants come into europe, hundreds losing their lives along the way, what stood out for you the most, given the death, all this pain that you have seen? >> i think it's the determination of the people. they all will tell you they'd do it again, and the situation on the other side in libya is terrible, and it's a huge amount of people. when i arrived i came off the plane at midnight. there was a flow of people. during the next couple of days we heard rescue after rescue after rescue. they come to land. that is great news much what happens to them when they get here. we followed up on those stories. it's difficult. as journalists, we are unbiased. we need to report the numbers.

then you talk to individuals. you learn their names and stories. they are seeking asylum those that decided to stay here. there's young men here 18, 19. they want better life better opportunity, that you and i have had. that so many have had. who is to judge why a man or woman is not able to get a better education. >> you got a chance to interview some migrants the survivors of a harrowing rescue at sea. let's play an excerpt of that report. >> this footage shows us how deadly ooep a rescue can be. the dingy is taking in water. people are panicking. many can't swim. it's hard to confirm how many

died how many bodies were recovered. what some tell us, as many as 40 people could have lost their lives. safely in port they tell us they came from libya. >> they have no problem killing people. that's why all of us came here even if we don't know what will happen to us. there are rules. >> power ufl scenes. those that came out say those that died died before the rescue. was that a different story to what you heard from the migrants themselves. that's right, we heard that story. once we spoke to a couple of them it's not easy to get access to the migrants because authorities don't want you to speak to them. we heard a story about them being rescued. a man told us about how a rope came down, they grabbed the rope. it was supposed to tie to the

boat. they pulled on it, it was devastating. we questioned the official line, and what was interesting, we went back to the hotel, packaged it up. sent it for script approval and there's a call from a news death saying there's a horrendous rescue video and told me what the video was. i said "this is what one of the men told us word for word, the ladder, rope the panic." so we married that together and saw his words come to life through the picture and horrendous as you see, that a rescue can cause death, and the question, a merchant ship are they equipment to rescue people. >> you have covered refugees in places like the yarmouk refugee camp palestinian refugees in syria, and covered libya, egypt tunisia and other places.

when you are across the mediterranean in a place like sicily and the boats are coming in and you are talking to the survivors, does it feel as if you are covering the same story basically from the other side now? >> yes, it's interesting you ask me that. one of the first stories i covered when getting here was the arrival of a boat with 900 migrants. it's a huge number to be brought in. it was a tug boat. they came in at night. the back of the boat was open. we saw silo et cetera of hundreds of people, they were standing still. it was an incredibly powerful moment for the team. we watched this. they were kept on the boat throughout the night as they did health checks. as the sun was up, there was a family, i heard them speaking arab pick. i don't speak arabian, but i have pigeon arabic. they were trying to communicate to a girl asking where they were from. a man approached me, we had to be difficult because authorities

don't want you to speak. he said "we are from the yarmouk camp", i felt that because i covered the most recent problems. but this is palestinian refugee camp outside damascus that has gone through a horrendous situation, and i looked and said yarmouk, and yelled at him and said welcome. all of a sudden you realise the long journey that the people make and how difficult and all of a sudden i saw them disembarking in sicily in an idyllic island. the sea was quiet and the whole back story, it brings home the challenges, the dangers, the determination that these people have to try to get out and look for something different. i felt that emotionally having covered that side and having seen one family from there disembark in italy. >> like a triple displacement for the people. >> thank you for joining us. that does it for this week's

show. the conversation conditions on the website at aljazeera.com/thirdrail and facebook and twitter@third-rail. goodnight.

this is al jazeera america. i'm bisi onile-ere in new york. here are today's top stories. i.s.i.l. control - the did i of ramadi falls as iraqi security forces flee. political protests thousands take to the streets in macedonia, vowing to force out the prime minister. rescued from rooftops, dozens have to be air lifted to safety after storms tear across the midwest and south