>> a real look at the american dream. only on al jazeera america. in tonight's debate billions are believers, we ask does religion do more harm than good. in panel with i.s.i.l. threatening attacks, should washington impose war-time censorship on the internet plus, is president obama trading decades of long-standing ties in the middle east for a questionable deal with iran. kevin durant, faiza patel, and travis smiley will be here. i'm "the guardian", and this is "third rail" -- i'm imran garda

and this is "third rail." >> there'll never be peace or compromise. children... >> what astonishes me is how many problems are the direct result of what people believe about god. >> in any holy book, you can see anything. skyscrapers. >> it's hard to find anything other than religion causing a things. >> a world but religion gave us others. >> that's the way we are wired. >> if you want to find a system encouraging people to be better. worldwide, consistently, the only one we have is religion. >> we have atheist department of transportation, and larry alex taunton, executive director of the

christian based fixed point foundation as our guests thank you for joining us. larry alex taunton, does religion do more harm than good? >> depends on the religion, it's a bread question. christianity, i believe, brings much good to the table. >> like what? >> the data suggests the average evangelical, for instance, gives 10 times the amount of money and time as the average atheist. i am sure that dan is well up the list on that. but they bring a lot of good ben ef lens to a culture. >> so ben esso lens to a culture, religion does more good than harm. particularly larry alex taunton's religion. daniel dennett? >> i believe christianity does a lot of good for many people. many need it. we should honour and try to preserve that.

it does harm, christianity as well. i think the harm these days - don't look at the past, that's atrocious - but if you look at christianity today, to me the big problem with it is the systematic hypocrisy, the way in which it encourages people, obliges them to lie, and it valorizes hypocrisy, and irrationality in a way that is really detrimental. >> how? >> well, when people use faith as an excuse for not thinking, and it seems to me that faith is a gold-plated excuse not to think. problems are difficult, and the answers from your faith is simple, and it's wrong. >> larry alex taunton, in the atlantic you wrote that atheists fascinate you - i'm glad you do, you have one next to you - but

you said you consider their philosophy potentially in my viewee and dangerous. dan is dangerous. >> i don't think dan is dangerous. dangerous. but when i look on the 20th century, an experiment in secular government. what i see is 130 million dead at the hands of secular regimes, suggesting that it is, indeed, dangerous. it's more than all religious wars in all centuries combined. >> the 20th century needed more religion, daniel dennett, not secularism. >> the regime spoken of took their lessons from religion, and turned to stalin and hitler. to call them aith yist regimes is a little much. they basically put forward r.e.m.ageous doc prince -- religious doctrines and cut

their followers, enraptured by rhetoric. >> they had idea yoingies. -- idea yoingies. >> it was different from the atheist that i am or the new atheist movement. we are not ideologues we believe in rationality and imperial evidence. >> what about taking larry's point and applying it to, say, china today, right, where the tibetans face cultural destruction. >> yes. >> wiger mousse limbs face destructions, you wouldn't justify that? >> no, i wouldn't. >> satisfied. >> i would put it that which, of the two world fuse, aith yist and christian world few, which restrains impulses and which exacerbates

them. as a christian i'm oblige said to treat you as people made in the way of god. >> whether we want to be viewed that way or not? >> yes, regardless whether you are a member of my community. >> atheists are moral people, they don't need a scripture to come from. >> where does it come from? >> from us, people. who are better judges of what is right and wrong than we, the people. some book says that something that. >> mao was of the opinion that killing 40,000 to 70,000, because he didn't belief there was a god in the next life to judge him for his actions. >> that's not why he did what he did, i am sure. i don't see a relationship between mao's rein of terror,

and his disbelief. >> larry alex taunton, let's have a look at some contemporary trends, if you like, evangelicals in places like uyanda, treading homophobia. is that just final. politics. >> it's not about that, it's americans spreading their role on the take of christianity to places like uganda. >> i can't speak to what dose gone in uganda... >> is it right or wrong. >> christians take scriptures seriously and it speaks about homosexuality. the way in which that is played out in uganda i can't say. >> persecuting homosexuals is okay because... >> no, i didn't say that. it's the teaching of christ, that we treat etch, regardless of -- everyone, regardless of whether or not they agree with

us, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual as an infinite value individual. >> superceding the text that says you may need to persecute them. persecution. >> is it wrong? someone. >> is it wrong to happen in places like uganda. >> i don't know what is going on there. i think it's wrong to persecute. to your general point, it's wrong to persecute in the name of jesus christ. >> is this some of what you are talking about? >> it is, and i have to say the eadvantage illists, how they move into africa and other countries, it's like tobacco countries, now they are wise to products... >> but tobacco countries don't build schools.

>> that's true. but spreading religion to people cell. >> reporter: they do a lot of good work in africa to fight g h.i.v., aids, orphanages. >> let's add up the good and sub tract the value. do. >> i admit they do a lot of good. they can do the same good whout prophetizing, and i think that's unfortunate. >> don't ath exists prophetize as well. the billboards, book sales, if you like. >> we don't tell anybody that they are going to hell if they don't join us. >> right. >> we don't make it a condition of anything, that they believe us. we lay out our reasons and let them decide. >> i want to ask the question is it only about other problems of fundamentalism. from rotten apples, cherry-picked interpretations of

itself? >> i think religion itself lays a foundation for that. this is by encouraging and respecting a certain amount of irrationality. and certain claims beyond criticism, and making it a moral obligation not to criticize the doctrines, not to question them creates an atmosphere that makes fundamentalism possible. i think that is - i would lay that at the doorstep of every religion. in fact, one of the painful paradoxes for good, wise, liberal human community religion in america is that the people that give religion a good name have to recognise it, in doing it that they provide colourizition for the bad solution.

and as i said, if the mafia built schools and hospital we'd organization. >> is religion the mafia. >> bad religion, yes. >> what about within this county, in europe and this country, perhaps we might not have seen the abolition of slavery if it wasn't for fundamentalist christians, quakers and others. >> perhaps not. >> civil rights movement. >> yes, but you have to remember, for all the good that the churches did in furthering civil rights. they were fighting against christian churches in the south segregation. >> that doesn't undo the fact that every meaningful reformed movement in the west has been motivated by judeo christian world few... >> every movement. >> meaningful reform movement. >> yes. >> throughout the world.

>> i said in the we were world. has judeo christian world few with abolitionism and throe. >> how about gay marriage. >> i don't consider that to be a legitimate civil right. >> there we go. >> evangelical christians - of course they are going to get on bard with something like that, because it's counter to what they believe marriage, defined a particular way from millennia, dan, is. so christians have been driving known. >> pause it here, you don't right. >> i do not belief in - i don't believe in gay marriage. do i believe someone can have the right. they can choose to have any union they like. do i believe, however, that that is a moral rite? as an evangelical christian, i'm not of the view that

homosexuality is right in the eyes of god. so, no. position. >> yes. transportation... >> absolutely -- the evidence, daniel dennett... >> absolutely. people. >> absolutely. it shows for hundreds of years people have been kicking and screaming by secular movements. >> that is not so. it is out of a christian world view that your science is born. it's out of a christian world view that the government is born or ethics or morality. >> wouldn't aristotle, plato or that. >> they may well. >> you don't think a judeo christian world view is fundamental to western culture. >>

historically it played an important role. i'll give you this much. religion served as a nurse crop. stability. >> i'll take a break now. coming up, we ask if islam does more harm than the other religions do. stay with us. >> people can point to verses in the koran, these verses are the reason we i.s.i.s. >> are they reading text. >> maybe it's because there was an iraq. >> later on. >> there are some extremist right wing jews calling for websites. i go on websites and stand up against them. >> if i go on to a radical website. i'll get on a watch list. >> and in the third rail we find

what it's like to be a refugee at sea. >> authorities didn't want us to spam to them. >> libya is easy, they have no problem killing people, that's why all of us came here. >> tonight. the fastest internet in the country. >> it's the next generation internet. >> but why isn't it in your town? >> our internet's half the speed of dial-up. >> could big cable be controlling your access to the web? >> it's not even gonna play. >> your right to access knowledge is being limited. >> techknow's team of experts show you how the miracles of science... >> i'm standing in a tropical wind storm. >> can affect and surprise us. >> wow! some of these are amazing. >> "techknow", where technology meets humanity. tonight, 6:30 eastern. only on al jazeera america.

>> the new al jazeera america primetime. get the real news you've been looking for. >> now everybody in this country can hear them. >> at 7:00, a thorough wrap-up of the day's events. >> at the end of the day we're going to give you an intelligent, context driven, take on the day's news. >> then at 8:00, john seigenthaler digs deeper into the stories of the day. >> this is a complicated situation, how significant is it? >> and at 9:00, get a global perspective on the news. >> sending their government a message. >> organizing themselves. >> people say they're finally fed up. >> weeknights on al jazeera america primetime. religion. >> it's built on prejudice, injustice and inhumanity. >> when you watch the room, it's not christian terrorists. >> al qaeda, boko haram, hezbollah, hamas.

>> all in name of religion, you put it in the name of our religion. the western press puts it in the name of our religion. >> islam does not just avoid violence, but lays a foundation for a profound societal peace. welcome back. let's bring in imam zaid shakir founder of zaytuna college. the first liberal arts college in the united states. thank you for joining us. is violence in the name of religion more prevalent in islam in this day and age. >> depends how you define islam. people that fly a plane into a building can claim they are muslim and do it in the name of islam. i recall in the introof this programme mentioning that islam

encourages suicide bombing. suicide and murder, the cause in the consequence of the suicide bombing, the suicide and the murder are vehemently forbidden in islam. people can perceive on the one hand or claim on the other hand that their motive or islam particularly, but we need to step back and analyse the true motivations. humans are motivated in any action by a complicated formula. in many instances religion might be part of that value. >> for al-qaeda ore i.s.i.l., it's a main value, they are religious. >> they claim to be reliageo, i would say they are more ido logs, and the claims to religion

are a religion that doesn't accommodate for the religion, including islam, that they have promoted, such as patiently and dignity enduring oppression. working through common shared values, such as the sanctity of innocent life, to solve your problems in ways that are governed by certain parameters. >> like christianity has a bloody history, islam has, it's not just a 21st history. >> i would say it's not true. inquisition. >> i would be delighted to go through all of these, the spanish inquisition is not christian. in much that i here violence being done in the name of islam is not consistent, as i understand him with truize lambic

teaching. jesus christ -- true islamic teaching. jesus christ teaching was against violence. >> you guys are not in agreement. >> i say if i reach across the table and hit you and say i'm a christian, it's not done in jesus christ's name. >> you can look at actions, we say religion plays a part. islam plays a part. people can point to verses in the koran. that's the reason we have i.s.i.s. the verses were in the koran throughout the 20th century, modern history, it doesn't prevent muslims, christians, jews in various places from living together. >> i.s.i.l. is reading their text too closely. >> maybe it's because there was an invasion, an occupation of the iraq that tore apart the social fabric of that county,

and in the ensuing hell, something hellic like i.s.i.s. emerged. i'm not saying u.s. performed policy alone, but i'm saying these things don't occur in a vacuum. you can't say i.s.i.s., all of a sudden they woke up and discovered the violent versus in out. >> bear with me for a second. a couple of days ago another secular blogger was hacked to death in blank, there was no -- policy. >> i don't think there's a sane muslim that would endorse or prove it. islam. >> a lot of things are done in the name of muslim. like i said, i don't think a sane muslim on this planet would encourage, endorse or approve that action. >> to me it seems the main problem with religion can be simply illustrated. if larry here decided i'd

convinced him and he announced he was no longer a christian, he'd break hearts in his family, but he wouldn't fear for his life. on the other hand, if you, as an imam said "i lost my faith, i'm no longer a muslim", you would not. >> i don't think i would be in any more danger. >> really. >> tomorrow if i did that than i was yesterday. >> it's interesting that muslims around the world are afraid .... >> can a muslim change his religion. >> i'm not a muslim around the world, i'm a muslim in the united states of america, and you are talking to me here in the united states of america. putting the situation in context is important. i can do it in malaysia, turkey, i could probably do it in most

places, not all places and... ..a lot of times they are sensationalized individual case, and are role. >> there are countries where apostizeies are punishable by death. size. >> how often would they if they didn't know they'd be killed? >> it's well known. these are usually highly sensational cases. >> i want to ask you about the context. we see in a place like myanmar, the country coming out. and we see people who are considered the most peaceful on earth. buddhist monks, attacking a minority who happen to be a muslim. doesn't it suggest that they are on to something. if they put the right kind of raw materials materials in there, the issues, and stir it around, you can extract violence

out of anyone, even the buddhist system. >> i suppose there are conditions when almost anyone could be made intoxicated enough by something, so they commit acts of violence, it's just that religion has a monopoly. >> it has an monopoly, if anything an atheist does can be attributed to religion, if that's the way we approach things, yes. religion has a monopoly. when it is rely imious, because we want to protect the good name and image ofated yix. -- image of aith yix. >> in 2050, looking ahead, there's a pew poll saying that muslims will be equal to christians in terms of numbers globally. they may be slightly more, if the plummeting rates of christians leaving the religion

conditions. -- continues. how does it make you feel? >> i don't have a response. bad. i'm not particularly alarmed by the data as it relates to this. in many instances, islam is growing at the points of a gun. >> where? >> well, i think i.s.i.l. is making is great men converts in this way. i don't think this is a manner in which christianity is it spread. so i'm not particularly concerned. again you are forgetting about the crusades. >> i'm not sure what your point is about the crusades. >> the spread of christianity, domination of lands. >> i suggest it's the hijacking of religion. >> sanctioned by the highest authorities at the time. >> in what way, shape or form was it christian, or consistent with the teaching of christ? not at all.

>> let me give larry encouragement. for every one person i.s.i.s. might force into islam at the point of a gun, it chases 40, 50 or 100 muslims out of islam because of a repugnant approach to life. >> i'm delighted to hear that. >> i think you are right about that, and i think the pugh study extrapolates into the future. and i am sure that they are making one big mistake. the new transparency in the world means that muslims all over the world, they are raising muslim children, but they are not going to raise the muslim children the way they've been raised in the past. themselves. >> that sounds almost like a fate-based hope that you have. >> no, we are seeing it everywhere. >> i have to wrap. we have run out of time. i have to wrap. thank you. and a handshake out of it as well.

thank you so much gentlemen. executive director of the christian based fixed point foundation. daniel dennett co-director for zaytuna college, zaid shakir. larry alex taunton from fixed point foundation. thank you all. "third rail" panel is next. >> he managed to succeed and alienate every country. no one likes the middle east except the iranians. >> they don't like each other.

no i didn't justify the killing of since. they have what's cawmentd the

called the dead baby strategy. they put their civilians in harm's way, not firing and having their own civilians in danger or firing and killing multiple civilians. that's what i justified, hobson's choice. >> you know what alan dershowitz stands on this debate. >> whether that's right or wrong, there could be a whole other conversation -- >> is president obama hurting alliances by a potential deal with iran. >> king once said, it is either nonviolence co-existence or violent co-annihilation. i always come down on prodemocracy. who else do you make peace with other than your enemies? >> i agree. >> you got to talk with these people. >> i agree. >> you got find a way to solve this crisis. the middle east, richard hoos haas he calls, the error of disorder.

in the middle east we are living in an era of disorder. every decision we make is going to offend somebody in that area. >> to alan dershowitz's point, the others would like nuclear energy and possibly nuclear weapons if you like. saudi arabia the country that beheads people for witchcraft and sorcery, any deal iran has we want and maybe a little bit more. isn't i a little bit right here? >> professor dershowitz is right here. any other country in the region has to be the answer to this particular crisis. >> i agree. >> and any decision we make is going to offend somebody in that region. but that ought not allow us to abrogate our responsibility. >> managed to succeed in alienating every single country in the middle east. the palestinians don't like him

the israelis don't like him the jordannians don't like him. >> and france is getting in there now. >> i think it's an age of disorder. we have to accept there's an age of disorder in the middle east you have always had an authoritarian region authoritarian regimes don't go well, the idea you're going to flip a switch and it will be springtime in the arab world i think is a little bit naive. now it's obviously that some of the united states allies disagree that this is a good deal. now does that mean that we're not going to talk to egypt anymore? does that mean we're not going to talk to israel anymore? >> of course we will. >> does that mean we're not going to be friends with the saudis? of course not. where we have strategic alliances we're going to work with them. >> maybe on camera i certainly

will, u.s. foreign policy is schizophrenic and to your phrase, strategic alliances, they shift like the wind and any given year with any given administration these alliances these relationships shift so what conversation today cannot be disconnected with a conversation yesterday or a few days to go. >> we got to wrap, tavis smiley faiza patel and alan dershowitz. still ahead. desperate for rescue from a sinking ship. i'll talk to a reporter who got their stories in a field semghts coming up. >> you realize the incredible long journey these people make and how difficult. i was seeing them disembarking

>> it has been called a colossal humanitarian catastrophe by enzo bianchi the high commissioner for italy. mediterranean sea from north africa to europe. more than 1800 of them have perished along the way. each week "third rail" will catch up with an al jazeera correspondent wherever they may be, to share their experience that you rarely get to hear. stefanie dekker has been

in the area, you have been reporting on the migrant crisis for quite some time now, hundreds of migrants losing their life, what has stood out for you the most given all this death, given all this pain that you've seen? >> reporter: i think it's the determination of the people. they all will tell you that they would do it again. and of course there's the situation on the other side in libya is absolutely terrible for them. when i arrived here, i came to a straight alive at midnight. during the next couple of days we heard rescue after rescue after rescue, that's great news but what happens to them when they get here? we have been following up on those stories in the last few weeks and it's difficult incredibly difficult. as journalists we report the facts, the numbers, you talk to individuals you learn their

names you learn their stories and of course everyone is seeking asylum those who decide to stay here, young men here 18, 19, early 20s, want better life, the better opportunity that you have i have so many have had, who is to judge why one of these men or women isn't allowed to get a better education to provide for their families that so many have had. >> stefanie, you got to interview a family who had a harrowing rescue at sea.let's listen. >> the dinghy is taking in water, people are panicking. many can't swim. it's hard to confirm how many died and how many bodies were recovered. what some here tell us is as many as 40 people could have

lost their lives in the panic. even now safely in port they tell us they all came from libya. >> translator: libya isn't easy, they have no problem killing people. they have no law there. that's why we have come here. even though we don't know what will happen, at least there are laws. >> those who had died had died before the rescue operation had actually occurred. was that a different story to what you had heard from the migrants themselves? >> reporter: that's right. we got there having heard that story having spoken to an aid worker having spoken to them. then once we managed to talk to a couple of them, it's not easy to get access to the migrants, authorities don't want you to speak to them, but we managed, we heard the story that people were rescued, fell out of the boat, one man was telling us how a rope came down, they grabbed that rope, the rope was supposed

to tie to the boat, they pulled on it, it was an absolutely horrible story. the interesting line, we went back to the hotel, i sent it for script approval and i got a story from the news bureau, and there was this horrible rescue video, i said hold on a second this is exactly what the man was telling us, the man was telling us the latter that came down the rope that came down. they we saw his words came to life through the picture absolutely horrendous. even a rescue can cause death. the question was that merchant ship massive ship are they actually equipped to rescue people. >> at the stefanie, you have covered other places in north africa when you are across the

mediterranean in a place like sicily, and you are talking to these survivors, does it feel like you're covering the same story from the other side now? >> yeah, it's interesting you asked me that. because one of the first stories i covered when i got here, 900 migrants, it was a tugboat, they came in at night and the back of the boat was open. we saw these silhouettes of hundreds and hundreds of people they were standing still as they came into port, it was dead silent, it was incredibly powerful for team. as the sun was up there was a family towards the end of the boat and i heard them speaking arabic, i have pigeon arabic. i was talking to one of the girls asking her where are you from. one of the men approached me again the authorities don't want you to speak.

he said to me we're from yarmouk camp in syria. i felt that emotionally, i had covered one of the most recent problems there. this is a palestinian camp that has gone through an absolutely horrendous situation for the last few years. i looked at him and said yarmouk, i said welcome. all of a sudden you realized the incredibly long journey these folks make, how difficult, i see them disembark in sicily, the sea was quiet, just that whole back-story, it does bring home the challenges, the dangers, the determination these people have, to try and get out and look for something different. so yes, that was -- i felt that emotionally, certainly having covered that side and having seen one family from there disembark here in italy. >> like a trickle displacement of these people. stefanie dekker, thanks for joining us. that does it for this show. the conversation continues on

our website, aljazeera.com/thirdrail. i'm imran garda, good night.

>> announcer: this is al jazeera. hello there, i'm felicity barr and this is the newshour live from london. coming up in the n 60 minutes dash -- in the next 60 minutes the battle for ramadi. shia militia called in to help take back the city a mission approved to tackle gang-smuggling migrants from india burundi