>> guardianship imposed by the state >> they lose more rights than someone who goes to prison... >> what's being done to protect liberties in texas? >> i'm just a citizen trying to get some justice for an old man... >> an america tonight investigation only on al jazeera america in tonight's debate billions are believers, we ask does religion do more harm than good. in panel with i.s.i.l. threatening attacks, should washington impose war-time censorship on the internet plus, is president obama trading decades of long-standing ties in the middle east for a questionable deal with iran. kevin durant, faiza patel, and travis smiley will be here. i'm "the guardian", and

this is "third rail" -- i'm imran garda and this is "third rail." >> there'll never be peace or compromise. children... >> what astonishes me is how many problems are the direct result of what people believe about god. >> in any holy book, you can see anything. skyscrapers. >> it's hard to find anything other than religion causing a things. >> a world but religion gave us others. >> that's the way we are wired. >> if you want to find a system encouraging people to be better. worldwide, consistently, the only one we have is religion.

>> we have atheist department of transportation, and larry alex taunton, executive director of the christian based fixed point foundation as our guests thank you for joining us. larry alex taunton, does religion do more harm than good? >> depends on the religion, it's a bread question. christianity, i believe, brings much good to the table. >> like what? >> the data suggests the average evangelical, for instance, gives 10 times the amount of money and time as the average atheist. i am sure that dan is well up the list on that. but they bring a lot of good ben ef lens to a culture. >> so ben esso lens to a culture, religion does more good than harm. particularly larry alex taunton's religion. daniel dennett? >> i believe christianity does a

lot of good for many people. many need it. we should honour and try to preserve that. it does harm, christianity as well. i think the harm these days - don't look at the past, that's atrocious - but if you look at christianity today, to me the big problem with it is the systematic hypocrisy, the way in which it encourages people, obliges them to lie, and it valorizes hypocrisy, and irrationality in a way that is really detrimental. >> how? >> well, when people use faith as an excuse for not thinking, and it seems to me that faith is a gold-plated excuse not to think. problems are difficult, and the answers from your faith is simple, and it's wrong. >> larry alex taunton, in the atlantic you wrote that atheists

fascinate you - i'm glad you do, you have one next to you - but you said you consider their philosophy potentially in my viewee and dangerous. dan is dangerous. >> i don't think dan is dangerous. dangerous. but when i look on the 20th century, an experiment in secular government. what i see is 130 million dead at the hands of secular regimes, suggesting that it is, indeed, dangerous. it's more than all religious wars in all centuries combined. >> the 20th century needed more religion, daniel dennett, not secularism. >> the regime spoken of took their lessons from religion, and turned to stalin and hitler. to call them aith yist regimes is a little much. they basically put forward

r.e.m.ageous doc prince -- religious doctrines and cut their followers, enraptured by rhetoric. >> they had idea yoingies. -- idea yoingies. >> it was different from the atheist that i am or the new atheist movement. we are not ideologues we believe in rationality and imperial evidence. >> what about taking larry's point and applying it to, say, china today, right, where the tibetans face cultural destruction. >> yes. >> wiger mousse limbs face destructions, you wouldn't justify that? >> no, i wouldn't. >> satisfied. >> i would put it that which, of the two world fuse, aith yist

and christian world few, which restrains impulses and which exacerbates them. as a christian i'm oblige said to treat you as people made in the way of god. >> whether we want to be viewed that way or not? >> yes, regardless whether you are a member of my community. >> atheists are moral people, they don't need a scripture to come from. >> where does it come from? >> from us, people. who are better judges of what is right and wrong than we, the people. some book says that something that. >> mao was of the opinion that killing 40,000 to 70,000, because he didn't belief there was a god in the next life to judge him for his actions. >> that's not why he did what he did, i am sure.

i don't see a relationship between mao's rein of terror, and his disbelief. >> larry alex taunton, let's have a look at some contemporary trends, if you like, evangelicals in places like uyanda, treading homophobia. is that just final. politics. >> it's not about that, it's americans spreading their role on the take of christianity to places like uganda. >> i can't speak to what dose gone in uganda... >> is it right or wrong. >> christians take scriptures seriously and it speaks about homosexuality. the way in which that is played out in uganda i can't say. >> persecuting homosexuals is okay because... >> no, i didn't say that. it's the teaching of christ,

that we treat etch, regardless of -- everyone, regardless of whether or not they agree with us, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual as an infinite value individual. >> superceding the text that says you may need to persecute them. persecution. >> is it wrong? someone. >> is it wrong to happen in places like uganda. >> i don't know what is going on there. i think it's wrong to persecute. to your general point, it's wrong to persecute in the name of jesus christ. >> is this some of what you are talking about? >> it is, and i have to say the eadvantage illists, how they move into africa and other countries, it's like tobacco countries, now they are wise to

products... >> but tobacco countries don't build schools. >> that's true. but spreading religion to people cell. >> reporter: they do a lot of good work in africa to fight g h.i.v., aids, orphanages. >> let's add up the good and sub tract the value. do. >> i admit they do a lot of good. they can do the same good whout prophetizing, and i think that's unfortunate. >> don't ath exists prophetize as well. the billboards, book sales, if you like. >> we don't tell anybody that they are going to hell if they don't join us. >> right. >> we don't make it a condition of anything, that they believe us. we lay out our reasons and let them decide. >> i want to ask the question is it only about other problems of fundamentalism.

from rotten apples, cherry-picked interpretations of itself? >> i think religion itself lays a foundation for that. this is by encouraging and respecting a certain amount of irrationality. and certain claims beyond criticism, and making it a moral obligation not to criticize the doctrines, not to question them creates an atmosphere that makes fundamentalism possible. i think that is - i would lay that at the doorstep of every religion. in fact, one of the painful paradoxes for good, wise, liberal human community religion in america is that the people that give religion a good name have to recognise it, in doing it that they provide

colourizition for the bad solution. and as i said, if the mafia built schools and hospital we'd organization. >> is religion the mafia. >> bad religion, yes. >> what about within this county, in europe and this country, perhaps we might not have seen the abolition of slavery if it wasn't for fundamentalist christians, quakers and others. >> perhaps not. >> civil rights movement. >> yes, but you have to remember, for all the good that the churches did in furthering civil rights. they were fighting against christian churches in the south segregation. >> that doesn't undo the fact that every meaningful reformed movement in the west has been motivated by judeo christian world few...

>> every movement. >> meaningful reform movement. >> yes. >> throughout the world. >> i said in the we were world. has judeo christian world few with abolitionism and throe. >> how about gay marriage. >> i don't consider that to be a legitimate civil right. >> there we go. >> evangelical christians - of course they are going to get on bard with something like that, because it's counter to what they believe marriage, defined a particular way from millennia, dan, is. so christians have been driving known. >> pause it here, you don't right. >> i do not belief in - i don't believe in gay marriage. do i believe someone can have the right. they can choose to have any union they like. do i believe, however, that that is a moral rite?

as an evangelical christian, i'm not of the view that homosexuality is right in the eyes of god. so, no. position. >> yes. transportation... >> absolutely -- the evidence, daniel dennett... >> absolutely. people. >> absolutely. it shows for hundreds of years people have been kicking and screaming by secular movements. >> that is not so. it is out of a christian world view that your science is born. it's out of a christian world view that the government is born or ethics or morality. >> wouldn't aristotle, plato or that. >> they may well. >> you don't think a judeo

christian world view is fundamental to western culture. >> historically it played an important role. i'll give you this much. religion served as a nurse crop. stability. >> i'll take a break now. coming up, we ask if islam does more harm than the other religions do. stay with us. >> people can point to verses in the koran, these verses are the reason we i.s.i.s. >> are they reading text. >> maybe it's because there was an iraq. >> later on. >> there are some extremist right wing jews calling for websites. i go on websites and stand up against them. >> if i go on to a radical website. i'll get on a watch list. >>

and in the third rail we find what it's like to be a refugee at sea. >> authorities didn't want us to spam to them. >> libya is easy, they have no problem killing people, that's why all of us came here. y all of us came here.

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religion. >> it's built on prejudice, injustice and inhumanity. >> when you watch the room, it's not christian terrorists. >> al qaeda, boko haram, hezbollah, hamas. >> all in name of religion, you put it in the name of our religion. the western press puts it in the name of our religion. >> islam does not just avoid violence, but lays a foundation for a profound societal peace. welcome back. let's bring in imam zaid shakir founder of zaytuna college. the first liberal arts college in the united states. thank you for joining us. is violence in the name of religion more prevalent in islam in this

day and age. >> depends how you define islam. people that fly a plane into a building can claim they are muslim and do it in the name of islam. i recall in the introof this programme mentioning that islam encourages suicide bombing. suicide and murder, the cause in the consequence of the suicide bombing, the suicide and the murder are vehemently forbidden in islam. people can perceive on the one hand or claim on the other hand that their motive or islam particularly, but we need to step back and analyse the true motivations. humans are motivated in any action by a complicated formula. in

many instances religion might be part of that value. >> for al-qaeda ore i.s.i.l., it's a main value, they are religious. >> they claim to be reliageo, i would say they are more ido logs, and the claims to religion are a religion that doesn't accommodate for the religion, including islam, that they have promoted, such as patiently and dignity enduring oppression. working through common shared values, such as the sanctity of innocent life, to solve your problems in ways that are governed by certain parameters. >> like christianity has a bloody history, islam has, it's not just a 21st history. >> i would say it's not true. inquisition. >> i would be delighted to go

through all of these, the spanish inquisition is not christian. in much that i here violence being done in the name of islam is not consistent, as i understand him with truize lambic teaching. jesus christ -- true islamic teaching. jesus christ teaching was against violence. >> you guys are not in agreement. >> i say if i reach across the table and hit you and say i'm a christian, it's not done in jesus christ's name. >> you can look at actions, we say religion plays a part. islam plays a part. people can point to verses in the koran. that's the reason we have i.s.i.s. the verses were in the koran throughout the 20th century,

modern history, it doesn't prevent muslims, christians, jews in various places from living together. >> i.s.i.l. is reading their text too closely. >> maybe it's because there was an invasion, an occupation of the iraq that tore apart the social fabric of that county, and in the ensuing hell, something hellic like i.s.i.s. emerged. i'm not saying u.s. performed policy alone, but i'm saying these things don't occur in a vacuum. you can't say i.s.i.s., all of a sudden they woke up and discovered the violent versus in out. >> bear with me for a second. a couple of days ago another secular blogger was hacked to death in blank, there was no -- policy. >> i don't think there's a sane muslim that would endorse or prove it. islam. >> a lot of things are done in the name of muslim.

like i said, i don't think a sane muslim on this planet would encourage, endorse or appre that action. >> to me it seems the main problem with religion can be simply illustrated. if larry here decided i'd convinced him and he announced he was no longer a christian, he'd break hearts in his family, but he wouldn't fear for his life. on the other hand, if you, as an imam said "i lost my faith, i'm no longer a muslim", you would not. >> i don't think i would be in any more danger. >> really. >> tomorrow if i did that than i was yesterday. >> it's interesting that muslims around the world are afraid .... >> can a muslim change his religion. >> i'm not a muslim around the

world, i'm a muslim in the united states of america, and you are talking to me here in the united states of america. putting the situation in context is important. i can do it in malaysia, turkey, i could probably do it in most places, not all places and... ..a lot of times they are sensationalized individual case, and are role. >> there are countries where apostizeies are punishable by death. size. >> how often would they if they didn't know they'd be killed? >> it's well known. these are usually highly sensational cases. >> i want to ask you about the context. we see in a place like myanmar, the country coming out. and we see people who are

considered the most peaceful on earth. buddhist monks, attacking a minority who happen to be a muslim. doesn't it suggest that they are on to something. if they put the right kind of raw materials materials in there, the issues, and stir it around, you can extract violence out of anyone, even the buddhist system. >> i suppose there are conditions when almost anyone could be made intoxicated enough by something, so they commit acts of violence, it's just that religion has a monopoly. >> it has an monopoly, if anything an atheist does can be attributed to religion, if that's the way we approach things, yes. religion has a monopoly. when it is rely imious, because we want to protect the good name and image ofated yix. -- image of aith yix.

>> in 2050, looking ahead, there's a pew poll saying that muslims will be equal to christians in terms of numbers globally. they may be slightly more, if the plummeting rates of christians leaving the religion conditions. -- continues. how does it make you feel? >> i don't have a response. bad. i'm not particularly alarmed by the data as it relates to this. in many instances, islam is growing at the points of a gun. >> where? >> well, i think i.s.i.l. is making is great men converts in this way. i don't think this is a manner . so i'm not particularly concerned. again you are forgetting about the crusades. >> i'm not sure what your point is about the crusades. >> the spread of christianity, domination of lands.

>> i suggest it's the hijacking of religion. >> sanctioned by the highest authorities at the time. >> in what way, shape or form was it christian, or consistent with the teaching of christ? not at all. >> let me give larry encouragement. for every one person i.s.i.s. might force into islam at the point of a gun, it chases 40, 50 or 100 muslims out of islam because of a repugnant approach to life. >> i'm delighted to hear that. >> i think you are right about that, and i think the pugh study extrapolates into the future. and i am sure that they are making one big mistake. the new transparency in the world means that muslims all over the world, they are raising muslim children, but they are not going to raise the muslim children the way they've been raised in the past.

themselves. >> that sounds almost like a fate-based hope that you have. >> no, we are seeing it everywhere. >> i have to wrap. we have run out of time. i have to wrap. thank you. and a handshake out of it as well. thank you so much gentlemen. executive director of the christian based fixed point foundation. daniel dennett co-director for zaytuna college, zaid shakir. larry alex taunton from fixed point foundation. thank you all. "third rail" panel is next. >> he managed to succeed and alienate every country. no one likes the middle east except the iranians. >> they don't like each other.

a mem by about his friendship with beloved mayo angelou. at the nyu law school's brennan center an al jazeera contributor and harvard law professor. alan durschowitz is a "boston globe" contributor. thanks for joining us. why is it tavis that u.s. presidential candidates have to be religious christians or even claim to be religious christians and play the game to get elected? >> for one, you are assuming it's a game as opposed to the fact that this is their faith of choice. >> is it their faith of choice? >> i think for most people it is. i think the numbers bear that out. i think having said that, there is some agnosticism in all of us. we all have questions. i don't think it's a game. i think we play politics with

our faith in campaigns, but i think that most of these persons who run for office are, in fact persons of faith. >> there is a pew poll that found 53% of americans would be less likely to vote for a candidate who is an atheist, most would fortunate someone who has never held office had a extramarital affair gay or lesbian or smoked pot what time does that tell you? >> america has been rooted in a kind of christology that means that there is something about this particular candidate that you can believe in something you can trust, that there is something that roots them or grounds them at their best. i don't believe that's the case for all of these persons just because they say they are christians but there is something about this notion of being a christian that we want to believe will appeal to the better angels in all of us vis-a-vis public servants. >> roots in cristology. isn't there separation of church and state? >> before we get to the first amendment, one of the few substantive limitations in the

body of the con at this timestitution, itself, is no religious test shall ever be applied so to vote for pattern based upon religion or non-religion is fundamentally un-american. >> but it happens? >> of course it happens because americans love hypocrites. we want people to be hypocrites. we want them to proclaim their devotion to reliming out. we don't -- religion. we don't care that much whether it's genuine. in fact we are fearful of people who are tore religious. >> it's a game? >> i think it's a game in which hypocracy rules. and it's a dangerous game because, you know, it'slike the admissions process to harvard law school where in order to get in, you have to say you want to become a public interest lawyer when everybody knows you are going to be a commercial lawyer who is in it for the money. the first thing we ask our studdence to do to be admitted is to lie. i think we do that with our presidents as well? >> i am not so sure. i was actually looking at this

poll the other day, coming back to president obama who, as you know has been dogged by these stories that he is, in fact a closet muslim. at one points, i think pew polling showed 18% of americans thought he was muslim. beyond that i think what's really interesting is that more than a third of americans don't know what ridgleaegion lunch on barack obama is but he has been elected president twice. >> tells you something a little bit different about how people actually view it. >> we know what church he went to. that was a very very bad thing when he was running. i have to tell you it's what for me tipped the balance against him and for hillary clinton when i supported her because i don't believe that you can willingly sit at the feet of a bigot like reverend wright listen to him and have your children listen to him for year after year after year and not have that have some impact on my evaluation of you. that's a bad thing to have done.

>> i don't want to get into a debate again about jeremiah wright. i will say i disagree with you that jeremiah wright is a bigot. having said that though the question becomes, when someone is running for office if they don't put their faith out front or at least declare that they are connected to a belief in something bigger than themselves, what we are craving in america and need in america -- -- we were talking about doctor king. if what america is craving and what we need is moral leadership, i think 1 can argue whether there is political leadership but god knows we need moral leadership in this country. if you don't put your faith out front, how else do you convince voters that you believe in something that life is bigger than just about you, bigger than just about the presidency and you can provide a moral leadership? >> i think also religion is more than belief. when somebody says i am jewish who knows what that means in terms of theology. it's part of an ethnicity.

it's part of a culture, and i think christianity is part of a culture, too. one of the reasons that people suspected barack obama is because he didn't seem nobody questioned his faith, i think. but people wondered. >> they did question his faith. >> questioned -- >> 18% of americans thought he was muslim for god's sake. >> i understand that because they were thinking that he has kenyan roots, he has family that was muslim. and for many americans, religion is not what you believe. it's what you were brought up in what your parents were. it's beyond they'llingology. america is not a particularly theological country. the christianity of america is a kind of civic religion. >> this gets back to your question, though about the gamesmanship. i don't believe that most americans in their heart of hearts who heard the president say repeatedly >> look in the camera repeatedly and say i am a christian. jeremy jeremy wright saw him sit in the same church year after

year after year married a woman who is christian. i don't believe most believe he is not christian. this is where the game comes in. if you can put this lamebel on him, you can distract voters. >> moving on, the recent filled out attack in garland texas featured two muslims urged by social media wondering if the government is doing enough to stop isil's online propaganda. >> high-quality videos use of social media. it's all designed to target today's young people online. >> hundreds or thousands of these home-grown terrorists who are being recruited overt internet. >> one of the texas terror attack gunmen contacted a member of al shapirobab by twitter. >> it raises new questions as to what can be done here at home. >> should the u.s. government put a stop to this or some of this and cut the cord to social media en sitement if you like

to stop isil's propagandaa? >> there are a couple of things when you say stop isil's propaganda. >> ban twitter accounts tell them to close things down? >> shut down accounts or, you know disable accounts take posts off facebook take things off youtube, that's you believe what people mean when they say this. i don't think they should do that. first of all, it's totally and completely ineffective. anybody who you talk to who deals with these kind of technologies and who deals with social media platforms is going to tell you that the min you take one of these off, there is going to be another one of them. >> whackamole? >> exactly. it isn't a useful way for the government to be spending its time. i would also point out that actually, even think it's not a useful way, governments do spend time doing this. they just don't talk about it very much. there are complaint mechanics available for facebook for youtube, for twitter. >> there are hundreds of these guys being inspired. al-qaeda's magazine being

inspired by it like garland and perhaps they were unsuccessful there. they were uselek and they were foiled but what if somebody gets inspired by isil accounts and blow something up? >> i have no doubt that there is some direct causal relation between what's on social media and at least some people. free speech is not free. it's very very expensive. and it takes an enormous toll and that means we have to do a better job combatting that. we have to get on social media. we have to inspire. >> who is we? >> the private sector the folks who feel strongly both about freedom of speech and who hate the idea of terrorism and, i think, reasonable moderate muslims have to be on muslim websites, showing an allotted ten of it. there are some extremist right-wing jew who call for violence. i go on websites and stand up against them. i debated rab eyes merikana.

>> if i go on to any kind of radical muslim website, i am going to get on a watch list. you are not. >> geller is on a watch list. >> i don't know about geller, but i know that i am going to get on a watch list. >> you mean an american watch list? >> exactly. >> not if you go on as an anti-violent person. >> they are going to track everybody. >> we can change that. >> we can change. we can make it more possible for you -- let me ask you this question directly: if we made sure that you would never get on a watch list would you go on islamic websites and would you make the argument against isis and against radicalism and violence? would you do it? >> i make that argument all the time when i speak, when it's relevant to what i am talking about. i am not a religious scholar. i am completely ineffective in going and messaging against isis so are many many muslims in this country. the idea that, you know, we are suddenly going to empower moderate muslims to go on

websites when they don't even know what those websites are, they don't even know what to say in response to these people. >> we have to teach them. >> mainstream we are finding it on twitter feeds. >> mainstream? >> an interesting point you made, alan. you mentioned pamela geller. you believe she should have complete freedom of speech? >> that's not even a close question. whether we should in some way endorse or support what she is saying is a very very different issue, but hers is not even a close question. >> you have got stick for using her name? >> i did it deliberately. don't make moral comparisons between her and martin luther king but martin luther king chose cities that he knew his march, holding hands with a white woman or white man would provoke reactions. he wanted to provo reactions. >> even if it was free speech? >> we stopped the people from

blowing them up. we don't stop the people from prove obbing >> two things if i can. one, professor durschowitz is right about this that we have to be diligent and vigilant. it is not lost to me one of these persons at least was on their watch list back in 2006. the fact that they lost touch with this person from 2006 until now again underscores another failure of u.s. intelligence people not doing their work. it's a simple point but one that needs to be made. back to what professor says about we love democrats. we were not having this conversation about whether or not the government ought to shut down twitter accounts, et cetera, et cetera, when columbine happened. i can give you any another of examples. >> twitter wasn't around. >> social media was around. we were not having -- some of these guys, you recall were online on facebook and on myspace saying what they were

going to do. >> malitias are doing it now. >> we were not having this conversation then. so when it comes again to islam, when it comes to muslims, we want to have a conversation about how far the government ought to go. this conversation was non-exist he want a few years ago. >> it's a strong point. we should mention federal agents have said sensoring social media would make it tougher to track isil. internet chatter can be useful to authorities who say intercepting those messages can help them stop attacks. >> there is an interesting story. we don't know if it's true or not. years ago, there was a website that called how many people can you kill in the holocaust and it appealed to all of the neo nazi s. many said this is terrible. according to the story, at least, it was put out by the mossad to track nazis bringing them in and destroy their records so you never know whether or not -- >> the honeypot. >> it's like religion. it's both good and bad. intelligence is like religion in that way. >> lights shift into international relations now.

is america risking partnerships with key middle east allies over a pending nuclear deal well iran? toeningsz over the deal have already led to diplomatic repercussions. >> the new king of saudi arabia. >> summit of do you feel state leaders? >> president obama called the meeting to address concerns over a potential nuclear deal. >> some see it as a clear message from an ally upset with mr. obama's policies. >> this is a bad view. >> netanyahu frustrated and disturbed about what he hears about a u.s. nuclear deal with iran. >> is it worth burning relationships we have in the middle east over a deal with iran? >> alan you are shaking your head. do you think barack obama is destroying existing relationships? >> yes. i think this is the worst foreign policy blunder since the war in iraq. what he is doing is he is endangering very strong alliances in the middle east the saudis em irates jordan,irates,

jordan. the most likely result is nuclear proliferation, all of the arab countries, sunni arab countries getting weapons, more guns more weapons, nor planes in the middle east more risk and for what? now, his answer is: there is no alternative. if we don't take the deal the sanctions will fail. he is right about that. but he put us in that position. it's not the choice that we have now. it's how we got to this choice which shows the major blunder the obama administration has caused that's what happened when chamberlain talked to the nazis. >> invoking the nazis. come on. >> you invoke history and you look athit and north korea if you don't want to look that far back. look at pakistan. >> you are worried about proceed listration? >> that's right. >> and violence, you have written a book justifying israel, the fourth large event

military in the world. nuclear armed, justifying their killing of 1,500 civilians in gaza. you've just written a book justifying that. >> i didn't justify the killing of them. i justified acts hamas who hide among civilians and want to see civilians die. they have the dead-baby strategy. they talk about it. they put their civilians in harm's way in order to give israel the choice of not firing and having their own civilians put in danger or firing and killing multiple civilians. that's what i justified. israel's reaction to that kind of hobson's choice. >> alan durschowitz, you know where he hands. >> we could have a debate about whether he is right or wrong about this and there could be a whole conversation about it. >> is president obama hurting u.s. interests in the region and alliances by a potential deal with iran? >> the professor remained the name of doc king. king said it is either non-violent 0 existence or

violent co-annihilation. i always come down on the side of diplomacy. a famous quote that the professor knows: who else do you make peace wen other than your enemies? you have to talk to these people? >> i agree. >> you have to figure out a way to solve this crisis. the middle east -- richard haas wrote a piece called "the error of disorder." i love that phrase because in the middle east specifically we are living in an era of disorder. everything decision we make is going to offend somebody in that region. there is no easy answer. >> to alan durschowitz point to the others would like nuclear energy and possibly nuclear weapons if you like saudi arabia, the country that beheads people for witchcraft and sorcery, they have been saying any deal iran has and we want. maybe a little more. isn't he a little bit right here? >> the professor always makes a good point. i am saying diplomacy whether we are talking about iran saudz e arabia or any other country in the region has to be the answer to this particular crisis and

any decision we make is going to offend somebody in that particular region but that ought not to stop us. >> ought not to allow us to abrogate our responsibilities. >> he managed to succeed in alienating every country in the middle middle east every sing one. the malstennians don't like him. the israelis don't like him. the jordanians don't like him. nobody likes him in the middle east except the iranians. >> yeah. >> they don't like each other? >> they like france better >>, and france is getting in there? >> i think it is an age of disorder and we have to accept there is going to be disorder in the middle east. i mean you have had, you know, always a volatile region authoritarian rege-mails don't go easy. they haven't built $ic institutions for decades. the idea you will flip a switch and it will be springtime in the arab world, is a little naive. it's obvious some of the united states allies disagree that this is a good deal. >> uh-huh. >> right? now, does that mean that we are

not going to talk to egypt anymore? does that mean we are not going to talk to israel anymore? ? >> of course we will. >> does that mean we won't be friends with the saudis? what it means is that where we have strategic interests with we have strategic interests with the countries that we'll work with. >> the unspoken truth, we have to admit this, not on camera is u.s. foreign policy is schizophrenic. and they shift like the wind. on a given year with a given administration, alliances and relationships shift we have to wrap. thank you so much. thank the panel. travis smiley, faiza patel, and alan dershowitz. straight ahead - would be refugees forced to plunge into the sea, desperate for rescue from a sinking ship. i talk to a reporter that had their stories in our field note segment coming up. >> you realise the long journey

that the people make and how difficult. and we see them disembarking. a powerful moment for the whole i gotta pay my bills. >> you gotta do somethin', you know? try to keep your head above water. >> sunday... $38. thursday... $36. for this kind of money i really don't give a s**t. >> a real look at the american dream. only on al jazeera america. >> part of our month long look at working in america. "hard earned".

it has been called a colossal humanitarian here it has been calmed a col okayal humanitarian catastrophe. according to the u.n. high commission for refugees this year more than 60,000 migrants have made the desperate journey across the mediterranean sea from north africa into europe. more than 1800 of them have perished along the way. each week, "third rail" will catch up with an al jazeera correspondent from wherever they may be to get the story behind the story to share their experience you rarely get to hear. al jazeera's stefanie dekker has been in the mediterranean covering the refugee crisis and she joins us from catania.

you have been there reporting on the migrant crisis for some time now. you have seen thousands of migrants come into europe. hundreds of them loses their lives along the way. what has stood out for you the most given all of this death, given all of this pain that you have seen? >> i think it's the determination of the people. they all will tell you that they would do it again. of course the situation on the other side in libya is absolutely terrible for them and it is a huge amount of people. when i arrived here, i came off of the plane straight at midnight because there is this flow of people. during the next couple of days we heard rescue after rescue after rescue. the interesting thing is they come to land and that's of course great news but then what happens to them when they get here? we have been following up on those stories in the last few weeks, and it's difficult. it's incredibly different as journalists, we are unbiatsed and need to be straight and report the numbers and start talking to individuals. you learn their names. you learn their stories.

and there are, of course everyone who is seeking asylum those who decide to stay here there are many young men here, 18, 19, early 20 did that just want a better life. they want better opportunities. the opportunity that you have had that i have had that so many of us have had and who is to judge why one of these men or women is not allowed to get a better education and try to provide for their families that so many other people have had. >> stefanie, you interviewed some of the migrants the survivors of a harrowing rescue at sea. let's play a little excerpt of that report. >> this footage shows us just how dead 11 afternoon rescue can be. the dingy is taking in water. people are taking in water. many can't swim. it's hard to confirm how many died and how many bodies were recovered. what some here tell us is that as many as 40 people could have lost their lives in the panic.

even now safely in port they tell us they all came from libya? >> libya isn't easy. they have no problem killing people. there is no law over there. why all of us have come here. even if we don't know what will happen to us at least there are laws. some powerful scenes there. the official report that came out said that those who had died had died before the rescue operation had actually occurred. was that a different story to what you had heard from the my grant, themselves? >> that's right. we got there having heard that story and having listened to an aid worker who had spoken to them and thence once we managed to speak to a couple of them, it's not easy to get access to the migrants. the authorities don't want you to speak to them. we did manage. we started hearing the story of the fact they were being rescued, people panicked they fell out of the boat. one men said how a rope came down and they grabbed the rope but it was supposed to tie to the boat and it was a absolutely devastating story. we started to question the

original official line and then what was interesting, we packaged they up for script approval and i get a call from the news desk and they say there is this incredibly powerful and horrendous rescue video that has come out. she started telling me what the picture was because we hadn't seen t i said hold on a second. this is exactly what one of the men was telling us word for word, the ladder that came down the rope that came down the panic. so we married that together and then we saw his words come to life through the picture. i mean absolutely horrendous you can see that esc a rescue can cause death. the question that was raised was that merchant ship mask ship. are they equipped to rescue people. >> i have one final question for you stefanie. you have covered refugees the palestinian refugees in syria. you have covered libya during the revolution egypt, tunisia and other places in north africa. when you are across the mediterranean, in aplation like

sicily and, you know, these boats are coming in and you are talking to these survivors, does it feel as if you are covering the same story basically from the other side now? >> yeah. it's interesting you ask me that because one of the first stories i covered when getting here was an arrival of a boat with 900 migrants. that's a huge number actually to be brought in in one boat. and it was a tug boat so they came in at night. the back of the boat was open. so we just saw these silhouettes of hundreds and hundreds of people and they were just standing still as they came into port. it was dead silent an incredibly powerful moment for the team. they were watching this and kept on the boat throughout the night as they did these health checks. as the sun was up and there was a family towards the end of the boat and i heard them speaking arabic. i have pigeon arabic and i heard them say six palestinians. i was trying to communicate with one of the girls, asking her where are you from? one of the men approached me. again, it had to be difficult because the authorities don't want you to speak. i maid to ask him. he said we are from yarmouk camp

in syria. i felt that emotionally because i covered the most recently problems but this is stall stenian refugee camp that has gone through a horrendous situation for the past few years and i looked at him and said yarmouk. i yelled at him. i said welcome because all of the sudden, you realize the incredibly long journey that these people make and how difficult and all the sudden i was seeing them disembarking in sicily this idealyllic island and that back story, it does bring home the challenges the dangers, the determination these people have to try and get out and look for something different. so, yes, that was, i felt that emotionally, having covered that side and then having seen one family from there disembark here in italy. >> uh-huh. like a triple displacement for these people. stefanie dekker, thanks for joining us. >> does it for this week's show but the conversation continues on our website at

aljazeera.com/thirdrail and on facebook and twitter@ajamthirdrail. good night.

hello. this is the newshour live from london. coming up in the next 60 minutes, iraqi trips and their shiia malt issue a troops against to move towards ramadi. celebrations in dublin as voters in the irish republic say yes to legalizing same-sex marriage. hundreds of thousands attended the