in tonight's debate we ask is america a racist country, in the panel - do americans want their troops back in iraq. plus, are you okay with having your sweatshirt made in a sweat shop for slave wages. i'm imran garda, and this is "third rail." [ ♪♪ ] >> there's a war on the black apart. >> a once oppressed people. today black americans are the masters of their own destiny. >> the system in america was

never built for black people. >> it's easy to identify racism, but a lot is structural. >> racism is in the dma. >> eric garner, michael brown, and trayvon martin. >> and freddie gray last month. policing. >> there is no credible evidence that law enforcement officers use an inordinate amount of force against the black males. >> our people are proud to support and defend opportunity for all. >> overwhelming majority of people are not racive. >> the presumption is that america is institutionally racist. it is not. >> we have tricia rose, director for the center of race and ethnicity center at brown university. and attorney larry elder, host of the radio programme larry elder show." thank you for joining us. larry elder - america is a

racist country yes or no? >> nonsense. >> why. >> wave a magic wand over the hearts of america and remove every smidgin of white people. make the average white person that things like david duke thing like mother teresa. problems remain, crime, kids without fathers, no jobs. the problems will not be solved by extracting marginal racism. orlandio is a professor at harvard, a democrat. he said america is the least racist society, provide opportunities better for black people than any place in the world, including all of those in africa. in '97 "time" and cnn did a poll about young blacks and racism. they said it was a problem in america. they asked was it a problem in your own life, not a problem at all. 89%'s it was not a problem in their daily life.

>> you don't have many. >> not really, getting up, going to working coming home, no. the average black person, if they work hard, stays focussed and doesn't make mistakes will be fine. >> tricia rose. nonsense says larry elder. >> my answer to that is that answer is nonsense. number one, to say it's less racist than other white dominated countries doesn't mean it's not racist. that's number one. number two, we have to put the current situations in context. you can't say people believe differently everything will be fine. this is not about personal prejudice. david duke is an extremist, and if we reversed and put it in the main stream of liberalism, that will not affect racism, which is what replaced the predominant mode of racism in america, which is personal premise supremacy supremacy, which is what has been affected. what happened since the civil

rights era is it's been replaced by tremendous social compatibility, but structural privileges for whites. that's why people can walk around, have a great day but be diswaping. >> what is the racist white person, give me a corporation. >> i explained. >> larry i answered you. i said it's not a personal behavioural issue. >> help me understand. >> i'm happy to. >> is there a corporation, is there an institution that you can name? >> that structural racism is policies and practices, a series. all of these institutions that you named, function with significant forms of discrimination at different levels. >> let me give you a couple of advantage. top two officials. 40% of the department is black. half of the department is black.

>> let me help you out. >> the attorney-general is black. >> you are black and you are saying things that supported structural racism. being black does not make you antiracist. that's the beauty of ideology, it means you have a set of beliefs that allow you to function in a way that may be against your best interests. sexism is a great example, there are many women that support these ideas. how do you act for a jarring statistic, that the people of colour or minorities represent approximately 40% of the u.s. population but are 60% of the u.s. prison population. >> because they commit crime. and often the person that they person. >> stop and frisk, 83% of all blacks stopped by police in 2014 were innocent, but they were stopped anywhere.

>> how many whites were stopped were incident? look at those numbers. >> stop and frisk is targetting specific neighbourhoods, it does side. >> there's no crime on the upper east side. criminals. >> how do you explain what happened in the past 40 years, black people are more criminal. how would you put the criminal - the trajectory. >> that's a good question. >> so in the last 40 years black people have become criminal. >> i'm happy to answer that. in the '60s, there was a book "the negro book." >> it was a policy statement. oh, my goodness. family. >> yes. >> president obama said if you grew up without a dad you are five times more likely to be poor. obama said it. was he wrong.

>> he was. obama is borrowing from bad dada from moynahan. >> unbelievable. >> single white mothers are growing. no one is assuming single white mothers are criminalizing youth. there's a history of understanding black culture and people. the wealth gap for african-americans in relationship to white quadrupled. the unemployment level is double whites and has been consistently since the end of enslavement. that means they are deal with a sustained practice that can't be explained by post 1960 to go to larry's points, is not. >> class plays a role. it's not black versus whites. i explained and i'll try to do one more time. we are not talking about personal prejudice. i do not believe that many white americans and other groups of people hold personal annie most

towards blacks - i don't like them. there's a tremendous amount of privilege structured into the way the past structured, in terms of wealth, housing, discrimination, housing, educational inequalities producing significant privileges and disadvantages. we do not have why. >> individuals are not race if. >> i said most. >> doesn't make sense. >> i'm saying individual personal behaviour and prejudice is one thing. when you tell whites that privileges are not based on hard work. sure, they worked hard. it's not that there's a significant degree to which privilege is enhanced, and you say we have to switch the system up. you get tremendous resistance. >> you people there's nothing wrong with the system. >> i never said there's nothing wrong with it. nirvana is not an option. i saw a poll saying 10% believe

elvis is alive. 8% feel if you send a letter he'll get it. the question is ridiculous, can i grow up in america, go to school, work hard and get an education and be assured of making it. >> it's not the question. >> the answer is hell, yes i want to zone in on cops, it's the hot potato issue after ferguson and baltimore, 49% of minister according to the republican religious reference institute, 49% of americans think the killings of black men by police involve a pattern. this is black or white americans, all americans. 49% of americans believe that this is a pattern. >> they are wrong. >> they are wrong. >> 140 blacks, two years ago were killed by blacks. 2.5 times more whites were killed. shootings are town. >> two times of whites. they are 77% of the population. >> 7-times more likely to commit crime.

the fact is shootings are down against blacks. down 75% over the last 30-40 years. baltimore has a black p.d. 40% of the kept is black. 55% of -- department is black. 55% of the department is black. black people are rioting, they don't believe the black people will follow the investigation. i argue that show many trin people to believe they are victims, you have a situation where baltimore, where the people ought to say wait a minute, i don't like what happened with freddie gray. the mayor was elected with 85% of the vote. maybe we should sit and wait for the investigation. >> why is this a problem? >> the ways in which the police departments have consistently again since the end of - beginning of emancipation responded to black people, that is to say for the past 25-30 years whites used drugs at a

higher rate than blacks. blacks have been stopped, frisked and found to have them, but are sentenced 20 times the sentences that whites would be for the same crime. we have a pattern that is cross racial. there's a history of the blue code in the police department. black police men have to be careful if they want to be they... >> why is shootings of blacks going down. >> i let you finish. >> police are functioning in a culture where they are expected to do the dirty work. i don't blame the police personally, entirely. they police, make sure they protect property in middle class america all right, we'll take a break. you've heard the phrase black lives matter. an activist from the new generation joins the debate. >> every year from the fifth grade forward my mother had to if. >>

is the issue of white racist school. >> you have to look at the big picture later, what is going on, iraq. work? >> absolutely. >> were you reporting. >> i don't think it matters and crude oil stains a pristine beach, we find out what it's like to cover a breaking environmental crisis. >> at one point we watched a

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lang lang >> the moment you're on stage, it's timeless >> american schools falling flat... >> there are no music class in public schools... >> and his plan to bring music back... >> music makes people happier... >> every tuesday night. >> i lived that character. >> go one on one with america's movers and shakers. >> we will be able to see change. >> gripping. inspiring. entertaining. talk to al jazeera. only on al jazeera america. are race relations in america getting better or worse. >> worse. >> hands up, don't shoot. >> almost every day. >> all of our rights are violated by bad policing. >> there's an education to prison pipe line. >> separatism of people. >> as recently as 2009 there was a high school that had a prom for blacks is a prom for whites.

>> we need strong black men to stand up and say "let's handle the situation." >> there's so many in america that want a cookie for how far we have advanced welcome back. joining us is brittney cooper, professor of africana studies at ranjan rupal. and a contributing writer covering race, gender and politics. larry elder said he doesn't experience racism on a day-to-day basis. do you? >> absolutely. two years ago i was on a plane going home for 4 july, sitting next to a young woman. i noticed they were saying cut off your phone, texting. so i happened to glance down and saw the tail end saying "sitting on the plane next to a big fat - and used the n word." >> sound like you had a bad day. >> that's normal. >> are there individuals who are nutcases. of course there are. does it pose a problem more black people to make it to the middle class. no it does not.

50% of homicides are committed by black people. >> that calls the woman the right to call her the end word. >> no one has that rite, that's not nice. we live in a world where we expect every person to be opening and welcoming. that's not realistic. >> wells fargo targeted neighbourhoods, and even though black women were plying for the loans have a credit rating to warrant completely legitimate loans, they were targeted because as the documents prod, they were targetting these women for debtor loans. they were economically crippling three and four generations of future people by extracting resources from vulnerable black people because they were black and vulnerable and making sure that the researches were there. we are not talking about a woman on a plane only. >> there are two problems there. first, there's a generation of

folks with problematic tutes. millennials, young people are not as racist as their parents were, statistics don't bear it out. the woman i was sitting next to is about my wage, relaulent millennial. >> she texted i was sitting next to a fat black person, so that means you won't get a job or a loan or buy a car. what will to do prac likely let her finish her point. >> i have a job, right, a very good job. i don't believe in the myth of my own exceptionalism. i'm the first person in my family to get a college degree. in the 21st century. my family has been in the country sense the 17th century, i'm the first person i can chart to having a college degree. my family has been ravaged by structural race. >> we are talking about the war on drugs.

institutional policy. they have made me an exception in my family. part of my announcement is not accepting the myth of my exceptionalism. i'm proud of my achievements. >> you worked hard. narrative. >> i'm asking. >> let me answer your question. in every year that i was in school from the fifth grade forward my mother had to call a teacher for being racist, right. quickly, let's think about the productural things making it picture. my mother had a nine to five job, she was home when i got home from school, and i could tell her i had a racist teacher. she had a degree of literacy and could advocate on my behalf. a lot of my fellow students didn't have parents of that ability. in the fifth class i was with

children tracking to the upper level. that is its open college. i was a valet dick torian, and was only one of four black students in advanced classes. i saw over the course of my career structural challenges disadvantaged children at the start and didn't end up at the finish line, and it wasn't just because of a history of bad choices. i can't believe it's because my mother loved me more than theirs loved them is the issues of white racist teachers why people drop out of school? may i finish my question. >> we did let you finish. >> is the issue of white... you don't have to be rude. >> you haven't heard. >> is the issue of white inner city blah, -- blacks and 50% dropping out and can't write is that because of racism i come from south africa.

>> i feel like i'm an outsider. >> i come here and see schools that are in an appalling condition in the upper city. mainly african-american kids going to the terrible schools, living in poverty. the good public schools are in wealthy neighbourhoods, predominantly white, and they are wonderful. black kids can't get there. fine. >> i didn't say it was fine. in baltimore we are spending 16,000 to educate children every year. we need to be able to get the kid out of a bad underperforming school. the democrats, the leftists don't want that. they are beholden to unions. president obama has his kid in a pricey school. before moving to washington d.c. they were in a nice private school. obama went to the best school in hawaii. and then to oxi, and then columbia and harvard. school. >> let's talk about the black

lives matter movement. you endorse, support it, you are a part of it. >> yes. >> in ferguson, you had the michael brown, clearly unarmed, people are angry that darren wilson was not charged. >> right. >> was not indicted. however, the black lives matter movement fully supports the case of vonteret myers, who the evidence from forensics and otherwise seems to clearly show that he fired a weapon at an officer, yet the black lives matters supports and resources narrative. >> sure. >> my question is why aren't these things looked at on a case-by-case basis. >> right. >> why is it every black kid cop? >> i don't know that that's the narrative we are saying, one thing we are talking about is policing. >> it plays into his hands.

>> we ask the police to re-imagine. let's look at waco. ferguson. >> i'm looping. we have bikers killing each others. other bikers showed up on the scene hours later. with weapons, coming to fight. if black folks showed up at a crime scene with weapons, they'd be dead. how do we know that. we saw a spate of black men, eric brown in tulsa oklahoma, walter scott in south carolina, right. all of these young black men and some young black women who have been killed - the question is not just about who gets involved, who gets included in the narrative, it's ab differences in the way that policing occurs in our community going bag to the situation, the officer was filed upon. >> actually, part of what i say to you is we are challenging the notion of what counts as evidence. here is why. >> walter scott in south

carolina - we ask - act surprised that cops make up things, and that cop sat up - he killed this man in cold blood, and then immediately as he was doing it, was on the mike saying this man stoled weapon and threatened him. the only time we had a narrative where companies make up the stories is when we saw it in south carolina. my question is when we see it, why do we act surprised when black community have a suspicion about cops making up evidence. planting story. >> any evidence that can be provided by, at that time, the st. louis p.d. the cops in ferguson, at that time the county p.d. was there, the d.o.j., it was ferguson, october, and they were investigating. d.o.j. was there at the same time. was there evidence that they would provide to you to make you think okay, maybe this kid fired at the cop. >> it's interesting you framed the question. my question is is there an amount of evidence for white america to get them to believe

there's a problem with racism in the country and the police being racist. it's not black communities who are unreasonable in the suspicion of police, it's white communities unreasonable in problem. >> let me say, look, there's black young people who are criminals. who shoot people, just like there are white young people and asian americans, fill in the blanks. that's not the question. can we expect systematically that people of all different backgrounds can be fairly and equally treated in the eyes of the law by police, the criminal justice system, education and the like. that is the question. it's not about defending individual criminals. >> the question is whether or not we expect people to be possible. in waco texas, i don't know about a white leader saying look at the bikers, look at income and equality, why the people are doing this. we are holding them up to their responsibility. we call them thugs and criminals because they are. >> they

weren't. >> i call them thugs. >> it's not that it should be called a white on white conspiracy or they should be asked to speak about white america. black people are shamed into the narrative. when a black person commits a crime or an alleged crime. what does that mean? >> we are called to the news to talk about... >> we are called to the news. >> don't troll me. we are called to the news. >> you are not making sense, i'm trying to understand what you goop. plain. we are called to the news to make a narrative about how black families are in distressed. and they call you and you say black people don't have fathers, that's why black men are killing. studies show 70% of black children come from unmarried household, more than 59% of black fathers who don't life in the household spend more time per week with their children

than white fathers that live in the household. and 59% of fathers who don't live in the household spend time. 39% of white fathers spend time with the children. that's a study. question. >> an absentee father is a social thing. >> tell president obama if he doesn't know... >> you tell it to your president. i think it's a problem. >> you had a problem with black leadership, larry, and you mentioned allsop, jesse jackson. >> i have a problem with cult black leaders. where are the hispanic leaders, russian leaders. >> how about the next britney. >> someone like britney, in my opinion bought the trisector that black people are vib tips, victimizers. and we in dementia, we leftists are the save yours. >> larry.

>> doing my research, looking for, or stuff on the internet. your writings and the like. you seem to be quite well celebrated by some neo-nazis. >> i'm not responsible for idiots that believe what i believe of. >> they call you a truth tell er sharing your videos, how does that make you feel. characterisition. >> it's on their sight. >> a lot of idiots are on their site. that doesn't work for pee. >> what does it mean when a neo-nazi shares your video and debates saying "this is the black guy for me." it means a neo-nazi took what i said out of context, pursuing an agenda. he does. most are about getting jobs, doing what they can to hold back a black person. the head of the n.a.a.c.p.

interviewed me, and as against the absence of black fathers, or the white community i asked what missed a beet. >> he said black fathers. >> this is the sacred crap for the black communities. >> you believe what you believe. >> i'm a fatherless black girl. my daddy wasn't in the home, and he was killed. i became a ph.d. , right, it's all the pathologyies. here is the thing. >> hard work. >> i was well mothered and supported. do you know what made the dins, it wasn't about whether both of my parents were or weren't in the home, it was about whether i had a good public school, whether i could afford college, whether there were jobs when i got out of college. >> no, it wasn't. >> you can't - you can't... >> it was about the values your mum gave you. >> you can't narrative my life or narrate my story.

you. >> you are not an expert on my story thank you, tricia rose, director of the center for race and ethnicity center at brown university. >> we are doing well at brown. university. >> not now. >> host of the radio programme, "the larry elder show," eld are. and brittney cooper, assistant professor of women's and africana studies at rutgers university. the "third rail" panel is next. >> well capitalism, where will that get us. >> it doesn't need democracy. >> it's not working.

welcome back to "third rail." we discussed whether america is a racist country, let's balance it out to political sworn 27

march on honest talk. we have joined by pulitzer prize judith miller, a former "new york times" reporter, and author of "the story." steve james is a documentary fame maker, he made "hard earned" on al jazeera. pete dominic is the host of the "stand up! with pete dominic" and it can be heard dale from 9-12 on syria's xm inside channel. thank you for joining us. pete we saw two separate cases where college professors, one black, one white, expressed views on race. one from duke, and one from boston university. both criticized, one forced to apologise. is an honest conversation about race impossible when you have political sworn 27 march? >> no, it's possible, and it's happening all over the country all the time, except for when it isn't. the colleges have to worry about their name, and have to make people apologise, and have p.r.

departments concerned about those things. this conversation is happening on your show here, and it was, as we know fiery, but thought provoking. the criticism is what we had on the show you can't have in dementia or if you are a professor with your students. >> i disagree, i think the conversation is happening on campuses all over the country, god forbid we allow students to choose their professors, it's a difference between punching up or down. it's different if it's an 80-year-old white professor or female professor. it's the same with comedy. the idea of apologise, and you see the duke professor refuses to apologise, each though he said things i only heard the narrator in "the dukes of hazard" say

he said asian face discriminations of blacks, they didn't feel sorry for hard. >> every black has a strange knew name... sounds like the rants of a raving grandpa. should he have the right to express it and not lose his job for it? >> absolutely. i disagree. i think political correctness has been a problem. the debate is hard to have on some campuses today. i'm not saying that, you know, talk is shut down, but when people are disinvited to give commencement speeches because a minority of students disagree with their views, or when "american sniper" can't be shown - he published it, maybe he expressed it badly.

a university is a place where you are supposed to hear a lot of different ideas. my concern is you hear fewer and fewer of them. >> steve james, where do you draw the line? >> i think political sworn 27 march comes from a good plus, in that it was trying to get people to be sensitive about the way in which we talk about these things. i think at times it's think. >> absolutely. >> i think that in the university setting, it depends on the class you are in. i think there are braces where we are too worried about the trajility of students, that they might be exposed to ideas that are challenging or, in somebody's view, is a problem. let's just have the debate. when i was in grad school, when i studied, we were studying a lot of leftist, structuralist and marxist poll tucks, there was a lot to learn, it

challenged me is it a generational thing at play. when we discuss the topics upstairs, having editorial meetings, what i find interesting is those in the '40s and "50s are no matter what, how uncomfortable free speech, colleagues in 20s and 30s, that's offensive. what is going on. young generation becoming more conservative in some ways. what is going on. >> maybe they are saving the vitry ol for the internet. >> what is interesting is that young people are coming into their own at this point. and it's a confidence builder to have the opinions and ideas. many of them are right. i agree with what steve said about political sworn 27 march. there's a sensitivity about which we could have the conversation. there's a reason we don't say the n word. >> the kids don't want that kind of conversation. they want to adopt a european standard of banning hate speech. i think the problem here is that

you have to know what the first amendment is, and what has come about, what the law is, what the history of it is, in order to preserve it. and what i find astonishing is just people who don't want to even hear about it. they don't want to know. i find that unfortunate. >> well, it will be interesting to see if you make jokes on twitter, if you lampoon racist, if it's found offensive. >> wait until after the show, you'll see them let's move to workers' rights. most of us love low prices but hate the conditions needed to keep the costs down. are americans hypocrite call this purchasing power. >> when you go into a big $10. >> government workers in bangladesh can expect to earn $0.24 an hour. >> u.s. demands low costs the

only way to meet those prices is ignore safety. >> conditions at the factory is shocking. >> it's the american consumer. >> you are bargain comes at someone else's expense. >> steve, this is up your ally. >> am i a minimum waged worker. >> are americans okay with slave wages and labour, if it makes lives easier, more affordable. >> most americans, i think, are unaware of it to beanyone with. to the degree that people are aware of it, i think they'd be concerned about it. the problem is too much of the argument around this is focussed on a narrow part of the equation, which is what are paid workers, whether in bangladesh or the united states frankly, and it's like, yes, i think workers need to be paid more around the world but it doesn't mean that the people who are taking the money can't take less. there's so many levels to this in terms of what goes into the price of a sweat shirt

or a pair of pants . a minimal cost is the people that make it. i think we can't just focus on is that end and look at consumers saying you are the problem because you are willing much. >> supply is a part of t. >> unferted capitalism is a problem. look at where we are in terms of the wealth gap, okay. there... >> how tare you. >> they did it in the last segment. i thought i would try. >> 50% of jobs are minimum wage jobs. the wealth gap is about where it was in 1890. >> sorry what? >> 1890. >> gains are made overwhelmingly at the top. as a progressive guys, i want to point out how hypocrite call we

are on this issue. you know, we are really excited that all the jobs came back under the obama administration. not because of them, but we don't talk about the fact that so many of the jobs are horrible by almost everybody's standards. the other thing is we want the people to have better working conditions, and for labour, and want our things - everything cheap. that is all a lot of people can afford. this is - this is who we are. this is who america is. there's no doubt about it. this is neoliberalism. trade. we have solar panels on the roof. i do it not for the environment, but to show the kids about consumption. because i'm trying to be conscious and aware. i am sure the pants were probably made by a child in bangladesh, so there's a lot of hypocrisy there. >> there's a lot of hypocrisy. >> i don't think it's just the united states. trade in china the past quarter has gone down 10%.

part of that is the global slowing of the economics. the economies. but the chinese are finding themselves at the expensive end of the production line. vietnam, thailand - they can make things cheaper than they can. this is how capitalism works. and when the consumer votes with his wallet, he's making a statement. that is why i rely... >> capitalism doesn't mean democracy. >> it's not working. >> it's not working for whom? >> a lot of people. not in china. the one thing - if you want to talk about capitalism. >> it's not working for a lot of people here. >> obviously. but if you want to talk about . >> i like capitalism. >> like unfettered capitalism. >> no, all men's accept the idea, most americans accept the idea that there should be an e.p.a., we is should have clean

water and the drugs we take and food we eat should be safe. >> they don't. they don't want to pay for any of that. >> no one wants to pay for anything. ultimately, when americans feel strongly enough about something, like the organic food movement. many americans decided to pay more, 50% more for organic food because they believe it's the right thing to go for themselves and the country. >> that is a solution. >> i may have to come back. a lot of times the art set up, it's false. it's like you can't have - you can't have people be paid well, and have, you know, environmentally - you know, self-conscious good policy. that is not true. we pay regardless. when we make things tore cheap, and make -- for cheep, and make people work, it bites us in other way, economically, in terms of, you know, public aid or people ending up in prison

because of going to - seeking crime to cope. i mean, there's so many ways we pay. if we focused on giving people the opportunity to have a living wage and prosper. it would have ramifications throughout the culture. that is something i think that you see when you look at how hard people are working at the bottom let's shift to iraq. despite everything we heard from u.s. officials i.s.i.l. seems to be winning. present... >> a bloodbath in ramada. >> this is a setback. >> john kerry says don't worry about it. is. >> 62% of americans support ground troops to fight i.s.i.s. >> how many troops you want there? >> about 10,000. >> definition of sanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result judith miller, i have an incredible fact.

7 years after the war, a poll found 62% of americans support ground troops in iraq and syria to fight i.s.i.l. that's the number, 62% that we saw in october 2002 from a pew poll that supported the united states sending troops into iraq to topple saddam hussein. what the hell is going on? iraq? watch... >> are americans crazy. >> they watch, read, lerch... >> and get terrified. >>..learn, and get terrified. >> though they shouldn't be. >> i think they should be. >> they should be terrified of heart disease. >> they should be terrified of a few things. >> like diabetes. heart disease. >> i heard this argument. including the c.i.a., a book by a prominent

. >> michael shoyyer. >> no, larry johnson saying terrorism was overrated as a problem, until it wasn't. there was people like me saying pay attention to al qaeda. because they speak is different language and talk about taking over the united states, and you think it's crazy, pay attention. >> it's crazy to think i.s.i.s. or willem alberts - you are not -- al qaeda. you are not saying that they'd take over the united states. >> no, they say repeatedly this they'd strike ut united states. osama bin laden's recent reference. he intends, he was encouraging america. >> just one question for you judith miller. >> yes. >> why does it seem as if we are being lied to or played, because the president and others are saying everything is cool, i.s.i.l. is on the run.

they take over ramada, the strategic city, a stone's throw away, and then the officials come out and say it's a minor setback. i.s.i.l. took over ramada. converted. >> no, i was given information that i tried to check. this is different. >> would you advise young careful. >> can i answer the question you arrivaled me. >> sure. >> what is going on, americans are looking at the ground, at the territory, they are watching a president who says i.s.i.l. and al qaeda is in retreat. they are winning and seeing - these are two organizations taking territory, and they put two and two together. let's not use the word lie. let's say they are spinning. administration. >> the administration way back

when, that they wanted to get out of this. president obama was very clear about his goal to extricate the united states from the middle east. my book opens in ramada in 2010 as american forces pulled out of the province. when i left that, the murder rate in ramadi was lower, and the province was stabilized. we pulled out totally against the advice of the military, and it has been the military warning the administration again and again that this course of action would end in tears, and it has. >> talk about it. the reason why public opinion changed is americans are terrified. it changed almost overnight. why. they saw the horrible images in the videos, and they are scared. you can say anything about us as americans. we are scared easily. that's why we changed the opinion. what's the solution. is the solution to listen to the

people that got everything wrong, everything wrong. >> obama got everything wrong. >> i'm not referring to president obama, the neoconservative ideology that want to invade and occupy iraq. they did. they got their way, destabilized the region, and the result was i.s.i.s. there's so many. if you talk - if you talk to so many military experts, people who are right about iraq, they are there now, including colonel lawrence wilkinson, so many. these are military experts that came on. these guys absolutely are not saying that the solution should be a military solution, that is what is wrong with america, that we think the way to solve the problems primarily is using the military. we'll do that the last 50 years. >> i didn't sit put troops on the ground. i did not say that. i'm saying military. >> the senator... >> that's the question, doesn't i.s.i.l. want us back. >> they do. >> they do.

sense? >> i think there's a difference between going all in with combat forces to fight the war, and sending in special forces, which is... >> more of them. special forces to intervene in a civil war. what will happen. >> no, to aid the people who are less bad... which is called intervention. >> yes. >> military - you prescribed a military intervention. >> no, i side with general jack kain, the intellectual father of the surge, and others who say we should do more than we are to help the forces who supposedly want what we want. >> i don't think jack kain was wrong. the surge worked. worked? >> absolutely not. intentions were interesting. invasion and occupation. >> the surge in 2000 and...

>> it resulted in ethnic cleansing of a group of people. so much so that they don't exist. >> are you doing reporting now. >> i don't think it matters whether i was there. i think it matters three hours every day i speak to the people that were. >> okay judith miller, steve james and pete dominic, thank you for joining us. straight ahead - trying to stay objective when you are covering an environmental disaster where the ground is satture aid with toxic crude. that is next in our field notes. >> it's tough to come to grips with, there's a tremendous amount of tension between the

a 12 mile stretch of the idea illic californian coastline near sanaa basha has been marred by 100,000 gallons of oil spilling from a pipeline, closing beaches for the memorial day weekend. third rail catches up with an al jazeera correspondent to get the story behind the story, to share their experience that you rarely get to hear. jake ward has been on the scene in and around santa barbara at one of the beaches hardest hit

by the oil spill. what is it like for you to see the environmental catastrophe, what does it feel like reporting on the story? >> it's the great irony of the assignment. you come out thinking "we're going to the beach, fantastic, it's a wonderful thing", we will not see violence, some of the things that our colleagues are assigned to cover. then you get here, and something about the sort of - the beauty, and sort of postcard perfection of the coastline having been as utterly spoilt as it has been by the spill, that is - it's a very - it's tough to come to grips with, there's a tremendous amount of tension between the beauty of the place, and how brutal this catastrophe is. you go to the beach, and not only is it covered with oil, it smells like a big open bucket of gasoline. we are at u.c. santa barbara interviewing scientists today,

and the feeling behind - what we learnt is that the smell in the beginning is not harmful, as soon as you stop smelling the smell your body is saturated with it. we stopped smelling the smell by the end of the day and we had head aches. you can sense how toxic the environment has begun. >> let's lock at a report you filed looking at the provision. >> the state beech is the place you see in oil paintings in local restaurants. now it's covered in oil. federal and state officials are coming to grips with how much got out of a pipeline into the water. it comes during the migratory season for humpback whales, grey whales and sea lions which travel the waters to the feeding grounds. they are swimming through one of nature's toxic creations. it's impossible to get the oil. the crews are getting as much as they can.

as you come to shore, we have crews address it. >> jake, you are a reporter, but a man of science, does it depress you when you think of how long it may take for the recovery here? >> yes. i mean, i would say absolutely. the deeper you get into understanding the effect of oil in the environment. how long it stays around, how difficult it is to clean up, it's hard to imagine when it is that people can go back to the picture postcard beeches. you watch the animals going by. you watch humpback whales. my camera pawn was watching dolphins out in the water. at one point we watched a pelican, and he's rite over where we are, has no idea how toxic the water is, and is diving in, picking up fish. we were standing on the shores, preparing to go live saying "don't do it, don't dive in",

there's nothing in a programme, of any animal that would tell them that there is such a thing as poisonous water. we, humans introduced it. and watched it. seeing how far we detoured from what the programs responded and adapted to. all of that is depressive. the people of santa barbara no strangers to the environmental movement. speaking to some of them, what stood out for you. >> well, that's right. this is, in many places, in many case, in many ways the birthplace of the environmental movement. there was a 3 million gallon spill from beneither the oil platform. it's a strange environment. you look out across the place, it's beautiful, unspoiled. every now and then your eye catches horizon, there's an oil rig. it's a big part of the economy, and i think a lot of people here, you see it in the mercedes and b.m.w.s parked here.

there's a lot of money coming in from that industry. at the same time this is a place that was the birthplace of regulations against oil. after 1969 it was harder to drill because of the devastation that that spill wreaked on that place. if you look at it in human years you think i'm 69, it was a long time ago, maybe it's acceptable that every so often this happens. if you look act the geological time frame in which it happens, it's literally happening every day. it kept coming back to me. it may seem like it's periodic in human experience, but the truth is that it's happening instantaneously all of a sudden when it comes to oil, hitting the coastline twice in less than a century. >> looking forward to your updates. you are doing a great job that does it for this week's show. the conversation continues at

>> this is al jazeera f. >> hell, i'm mary ann namatmazi. this is the newshour, live from doha. grim discoveries mass graves and prison cages used at junk l jungle camps in malaysia. forge a human chain to show thei