tonight, in our debate, given its history of human rights abeushes and terrorism should the u.s. end their alliance with saudi arabia, and, later in our panel is the incident making the world less safe for women and.

saudi arabia is everyone of the values holds dear. and no alleys to the region, we still have reasons for relationships. they need more executioners, to keep up with the number of public beheading. and they kill all jews and hate the chris cans, and 28 pages. 9/11 inquiry establishes a chain of liability nearly every element points to saudi arabia the united states, have never pushed saudi arabia, we have strike that is he teegic interests. it helps keeps other regional powers in check. it is america's bestfriend. in the middle east, the enemy is still my friend- tonight we have the for emergency policy to the general

and, top diplomat, and saudi born activist, executive director for democracy in saudi arabia. thanks for joining us, is it tim to end the relationship? no. is it time to end the relationship? no, it is time to put pressure on them to embark, and perform to share power with the saudi people, to guide their people through this difficult time which the regime itself seems unable to do. it's not time to end the relationship but time to put pressure on them. i think it is important to maintain american values, in dealing with the saudis and i think that the saudis realize within their neighborhood, that outsiders, isis will take

advantage of anything in their society,we need to continue the dialogue. let's see if i have this correct, pressure on the saudis would mean schisms in their society. there are schisms and they have a large number of minority, and isil has shown that it is interested in them and, this is the time for america to reaffirm their friendship when they are under that kind of pressure. reaffirming its friendship, a country that has so far beheaded 90 people this year xm that sounds very similar to isil. it is a traditional society and there is a need for changes. but the relationship has gone through many ups and downs as they have developed, this is not the time to turn our back on our

friends. you talk about american values and bloggers are throne in jail, and, is that the type of society that you want the united states to have. do you think that saudi arabia is going to change for the better if we turn their backs, and they fall into the laps of chinese and russians who have no regard for treatment of minorities and they treat all of those things as internal security matters. they will just turn to russia. well putin and, try to find their place for the united states and putin, will go through the backdoor and, they went to the chinese and they did the same thing and after the arab spring started because they were afraid they might be next. and then, they came back to the united states because the united states is the only power that have always protected the saudis

from threats. de stabilization of the society created by this relitsch us establishment, and including the king and his brothers before him. so how does the the need pressure them? and the united states today and saudi arabia today and they are more vulnerable than at anytime in their history. and they know, the only country that is going to get them out of this mess, they have put themselves in, is the united states. we have done it before, and we saved them from saddam and from nasir, in 1962. and we saved them of all revolutions that have tried to get rid of them, so they trust us a lot and, they know we are the last hope, to stay in power. today, they are in a position, and this has failed in our

relationship with the saudis. the president of the united states is in a position to and him, either do or we are going to pull out of support for you. we have enough arms and military in the gulf, and qatar and, to protect them and we are not going to let you continue with policies that are threatening and beheading and killing, and wherever -- not to the turn our back against the saudi but to dictate our own interest because we are in a position to defend ourselves. let's post that, this is leverage and he's talking about leverage and, they are weaker than they have ever been and it's a good time, let women drive, and stop the beheading

and stop beheading people for witchcraft and free the bloggers. there's nothing wrong for pa continuing dialogue and, i have said it before, and i'll say it again, if democratic elections were held, when we had our freedom agenda today bin laden would have been elected president of saudi arabia. the idea that you can instill, and enforce a democratic value on a tradition a society by fiat is misguided. who are you to decide for them. the saudi royal family has done what it can do move the the society forward. it's traditional, it has currently a new government. that government is being tested by regional powers, and extremists. right now while these are

critical issues, the reform of the women's rights and minority rights these are critical issues and, when you have to tree allege this matter, when they're a gaming chest wound you don't treat a minor illness. democracy a long-term goal for the region. why pick on saudi arabia there are no democracies in the arab world. tunisia and, you can come up with one example. you said there were none. well whether it was a doe mock kray, it started the arab spring. you're a saudi are saudis not deserving of democracy. of course they are. and the people, the young generation and these are people

who are like their counterparts even in their borders, but they converted themselves with all young men and women. their lifestyle their freedoms, their employment and they see that they are receiving the shortened of things. they want -- not going to be a democrat in one year or ten years. but, these people are disconnected from the past, and he's talking about. and tradition. and don't see something tajable to embrace their needs. to his point two points, really in response to the bombings of the mosque, in saudi arabia by isil and we saw on

social media, a lot of support from within saudi arabia for the bombings some people were even saying forums, i don't want to give bloods to victims and there was another web poll do you consider isil's advance to benefit and over 50,000 people voted yes that's 81% of the people. what does that tell you? does that say that perhaps given the choice in the region, not just saudi arabia, a lot of people might be dangerous with the vote. no no. with respect here like most diplomats, they side with the line of the government, and back to society and not ready. and this is hogwash.

these people, of saudi arabia are like any people in the world, in terms of this support for isis in saudi arabia, of course there is many but who created? it's the religious establishment, and they are promoting the most extreme brand. including, when he was the governor, and he said, he is helping isis, and what the is doing today is exactly what the movement did between 1774, and 1929. they were killing people, and they were raping women and taking people's properties and putting them in jail, so, isis is imitating this. when you say that, you mean

following ham mad and sunni islam over there. what he is saying is that, the united states is enabling the dealer, and you're looking at the successes of the saudi government and where they're cracking down, in the wrong of saudi playing the cop and a dealer and, a cop at the same time. certainly, the situation that tu find in the region where the saudis have developed this link needs to adapt to the changing conditions in the region. what you are saying is hogwash. because its diplomacy. it is not. they have to fine, the king did it and others have tried to follow. created the national dialogue to solve some of these schisms in the so si, with the

she a and elsewhere and there are modern progressive saudis, and the problem is, again you look at a new government, which is under threat from al-qaeda, and, up to the creation of isil and, now isil, and iran, and that country right now is under severe threat, and when you are under severe threat, the long range goals that you're talking about, that are constitution alized goals that you have to implicate within society, they have to be pushed further down the road and, it doesn't mean that the united states stops that. they are instrumental and quite frank lish no one else. all the saudis have to do is isil and they'll have the complete support of the united states. i don't think it's that bold. i think that as maintaining the

friendship allows us to continue to press, a new government, a new generation for a conopinion ever tin wasting of the national dialogue a reform the relationship with the she a community and, because if they don't do that, isil will be happy to take advantage of it. and so will iraq. i have to take a break. and we can get your response. coming up we're joined by the former senator was saudi arabia's involvement in 9/11. the fun ger at saudi arabia. because saudi arabia named in a document, they are complace sit. later on,. we can have different opinions and, i don't care about the collection, and -- he is not listening. is that true? what do they do with the information after? has the government just

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28 pages blacked out in the 9/11 report. they say it will show saudi arabia.

helps bank roll them,. two days after september 11th he was trying to evacuate. they have called for this report to be de classify he. i would not be calling for the disclosure of this information. my husband's murder cannot be the price we pay for doing business with the saudis. joining us now is, bob graham he served as the senate intelligence committee into the 9/11 attacks and he's calling for the release, for the 28 pages, redacted, for it. so what's in the 28 pages does it tell us that saudi arabia did 9/11, i can give you the details and, the 28 pages deal with who financed nine eleven, and they points a strong

finger at saudi arabia. saudi individuals or saudi government. that's a crucial distinction. yes, that's why making this information available so we don't have to dance around it, these important details, is very much in the public interest. now, the former ambassador, he read the 28 pages and, he said there isn't the "smoking gun" that you claim. it's a matter of interpretation, and, saudi says they have nothing to hide. are you maybe extra po lating too much. let's let the material go out so we don't have to argue over it, over a 28 page document that very few people have ever seen i happen to be one who has. nothing to hide, should they be released?

i think they should be released and there have been ups and downs and sue when crisis and the nasir situation and, this relationship has not been a perfect marriage, there have been ups and downs and this is as issue that's best put out in the open. if they show that senior members of the saudi government were involved in financing the 9/11 attacks what does that mean. it is up to, coming through a process that makes them clear and open and, i don't think they should not be clear and open and, they should be open so they can be resolved. the process will deal with it. whatever it is, as far as opening the process and responding to what is forthcoming has to be part of that relationship that has had its ups-and-downs and that would be a significant down. down, if it shows that the central attack,that framed

foreign policy, for the last 14 years, in fact included a crucial ali. well again you're making the jump that because saudi arabia is named in a document, that this means that the saudi government is complicit. there is financing coming from individuals in the gulf, that goes all over the place. some unwittingly. there are charities that finance humanitarian endeaf vorce and, that does happen. let's get to the bottom of it. do you support senator grahams. it's been called a crusade. absolutely, there is no secret why take it out? why not make it public? it's very simple to me. i think, the fact that, president bush and his group

took it out, and the fact that, it is not released until now there's something in it. and the united states government owes it to the thousands of american families who lost their loved ones, and, in the world trade center and, they should know who financed the killer of their own the american people. so if there is no issue here, why not release it? it's very simple. it doesn't take a genius. our government does everything everyday, and about clinton and everybody else. one thing that's frustrated me is that neither the bush administration nor the president barak obama administration have given a reason why this document should continue to be

classified 14 years after it was written. because, it could implicate the saudis. then we can have a debate, is it important to the united states to avoid embarrassment to the kingdom of saudi arabia to allow thousands of americans who suffered loss, in 9/11 she to be denied justice, which is in fact what happened. beyond 9/11 and looking at what we talked about the exporting after ideology and, funding of groups, with all of that in mind, do you think that it is still worth keeping the friendship. i believe, we have sent a signal, saudi arabia knows what it did. they have a good idea, that at least at the highest level

we know what it did and now, the question is, what message has saudi arabia received by the fact that we have not acted on that information. i think the message has been one of impunity, that they can do whatever it wants to. impunity including funding groups in syria and enemy of my enemy is my end namy is my friend. beheadings and suicide bombings who have been committed by al-qaeda, and are you cool with that. no, i think that the key point, the united states has to remain engaged in that region, this is only a little bit of a taste of what happens to that region if the united states

pulls its leadership, it becomes a divided war lord. aud are not the got guys, if you don't deal with the actors, who are trying to kill them, we are never going to get to the bottom of these problems and, it will be a complete war against all, without american leadership, and the problem is, the leaders in that region, concerned that we're on our way out and they cut deals with unsavory organizations to support their national security issues. and we can't let that happen. the united states has on step up. don't you think, it is to and some questions after isil, if we had al-qaeda, develop, in the late 1980s and 199 0s and we have diminished their capabilities in pack cast stand

and afghanistan, and then we had these subsidiaries, in yemen and, now in syria if we are able to reduce their capability, then we have, a isis develop it seems to me, what we have is a pattern of producing the two things, that any terrorist group depends upon, money and new recruits and that the center of that effort, has been through saudi arabia. that's where most of the money comes from. and the extreme religion that it practices and encourages. the saudi government, no voice in anything. they could not survive with isis and somebody like that, they present themselves as the got guys and they tell our

polytitions, it's either us or them. so they -- they are clever, they are not stupid, they give us these options. especially, to our diplomats and our congress people, and the white house the choice between us or isis. the choice is between us or this or that. this is -- this is by the invasion of yemen, guess who benefit sned. imawd, houthis are getting less and this is an extreme point that doesn't get mentioned. i don't want to get into a yemen discussion because that's as whole new show and we are out of time here. it's been a pleasure. and senator bob graham, thank

you. the panel is next we've never had someone this famous come out and be connected to this celebrity culture. would this be more palatable, if it weren't with the car dash shii anns.

>> for 6 months, the road outside the us embassy in yemen was closed... >> two car bombs exploded this morning... >> three days before the attack it was re-opened without warning. >> they would not have been able to get the car bombs to the front of the embassy. >> did yemeni officials

knowingly allow these attacks? >> did you prepare the bomb? >> former al qaeda operative reveals groundbreaking allegations... >> they'd be surprised if the fbi didn't wanna talk to this guy.... welcome back, america should cut ties with saudi arabia, over many issues including human rights, is the united states in a position to judge offers on human rights. cathy is with gl a mail d. and, mark, is at john hopkins, and margaret is the president of the agency, public relations communications and thanks all of you. let's start with you, i guess given america's use of water boarding and, there was a report people freezing to death, and does america have

any right to lecture others, on human rights and cut ties. i don't think we do, and we have to be careful, when we judge other countries and regions on their practices when we have similar practices. america, we're the beacon of freedom and, we have a history of racism, and civil rights groups but i do think, that really, in the last decade or so on particular issues like lgbt, we have come a long way and, there's been more outspoken and more and better criticism of countries, for lgbt people face the death penalty and it is illegal to be gay. we can still lead even though there are aspects of our society that we don't like and are critsized.

but, if we look at some of the torture issues these were not official government policies and little aberrations in time-periods. torture was called advanced interroinvestigation. it was a small group of leaders in power and, it's been changed by the president barak obama administration and, that doesn't mean that we can't educate or even, i wouldn't say never speak down to, but speak to other countries to try to razor taken standards. does any country say that they actively torture people as policy. they say it's an aberration. there are some countries i'm not sure, the duck, however that goes if it quacks like a duck, there are certain country that's violate human rights and with the united states, with educating or talking to other

countries it's not just us, that's the problem. other countries when we are criticized we're the only ones doing this. this should be any country who is up holding international law of which there are treaties and, norms and no country can deviate. you can't torture or war crimes and whether you signed order or not so the u.n. should be involved and we should be a leader and so should canada and, australia and saudi arabia. looking at what had happened after the mike brown shooting in ferguson and the protests, we found world leaders including the supreme leader of iran trolling the united states. he was highlighting the prison population, and the historical grief haven'ts of the

african-american and black lives matter hashtag. and, it gets so bad to the extent that these guys get to troll the united states, do you find that embarrassing? i find it, you know, we have to remember, that we are a global power and, that other countries do look to us, and so, it gives them the right, when we jit size them for the things that they do, in their country they get to turn the mirror on america. even northfore ria did the trolling they put the united states on a list of country that's include abuses, racial discrimination and poverty and, unemployment. you can isaiah things, people in glass houses should not throw stones and, i say that as someone who is a proud

american, we should hold ourselves to higher standards. i want to move on, national security, president barak obama signed the freedom act into law modifying the patriot act and it's left new questions whether americans, care about privacy others to believe and i know you have a lot to say about this the real question comes down to how much security you want and, how much liberty to do you want. i want to be safe, prosperous and free and safe comes first. is there to make sure we don't have another 9/11. you shouldn't give up liberty. liberty, once given up doesn't come back. there's a poll, showing 61% of americans favored keeping the patriot act as it was. what does that say?

when push comes to shove people want it. they want their government to spy on them? problem is these polls are so off the mark, most american he, do not understand, what the patriot act is, and what n.s.a. is and what it does or if you know a little bit about it, ed snow den and you read a title or a little bit of a news broadcast, you only get a little snippet of it, and how you phrase the question it seems to be, do you want the government spying on you? no. do you want to be avoiding another terrorist attack, the answer is yes. and one means you give concept to the other. there's as problems with the poll. education. the government -- people like, spy on the bad guys, i'm not calling anybody.

but don't spy on the bad guys. but, the problem is, is the government spying on us? and then you have to look at the nuances of it, and if you believe, the collection that was at issue, in this legislation was collecting metadata, who you called, how long you called. and not the content and now, we could have different opinions, do you feel that that's an in vegas of your privacy, i don't care about the collection, i care about the use. that's the spying. it's not the collection, he can give you a lot of reasons -- the government is not listening. they're listening to international phonecalls and targeted phonecalls and, it's not people, it's computers listening. but with the government is not doing the vast nature of spying. but to the american people, what

they want is, their just happy and the stats are, we feel the safest since 9/11, that we're not going to be attacked. do you believe the freedom act, actually makes a difference? do you believe? i think there has but i think, i watch home land -- i think the problem is, people are afraid because they don't know what the government is doing. there's a lack of trust. but, is that really true. what do they do with the information after? that's the question. it comes down to the safeguards and oversight, by the branches and one of the good things is to set up for advocate, before the court which only has a government and the judges and now there's going to be private law years and, they will advocate on the side of the individuals.

from 1979 to 2013, they have only rejected twelve applications. you have to understand, how process worked, and that is very specific thing, when the applications would go to the court, the court would not necessarily rule and deny, they would reject it and sago back and fix this. and then the government would bring it back. so they were bringing back an application that was going to be, that would meet their approval without having to deny it. plus the prosecutors have done it so many times they know what they have to put in the paperwork, so that stat, again it's like polls where it shows a fact that's not the fact, it doesn't mean, that just because there's some few applications denied that they were running amuck, they knew what they needed to do to satisfy the burden. in an election year, no

politician wants to go out there and say i want to push for something, that might soft end of the national security. but, i think the bigger problem is the branding of it, and the fact that we have said, there's elements of all of these acts that americans are not aware of. this is something that impacts every american, we should be educated on it and how it impacts us and how it is being collected and how it is being stored and used. i want to shift to cyber threats, and some americans wonder if the price of an open internet means open season on women. the supreme court has thrown out the conviction of a man convicted of making threat's facebook. your body is a mess, and i'm not going to rest. it is natural. the internet makes it easier than ever before.

i got an email that i was ugly and fat and go kill myself. the internet, is hardly the because sean of freedom and that we all claim it is. it's gross. right, when it comes to this. the supreme court ruling saying it's not so much of that, you know, this guy made threats it's not enough. i think that the internet is filled with keyboard gangsters, and people who get this courage, to say things, they would nearly ever say in a person's face or if they were not hidden behind a fake identity. we have to be careful when we allow people to be reckless and say anything, whether it's virtual or not and not allow some level of protection for those who are the individuals who are -- there's no recourse, as things stand, has it made things

less safe for women? absolutely. anyone can say anything to anybody and i don't think that, i think there should be guardrails. and i think we have to be careful with the way that we treat online abuse. let's and the legal man this is a country of freedom of speech, and the internet is i guess, by definition, the freest place around, so how do you legislate this? this is one of the problems, for one thing law has not been able to keep up with technology and, i have a case, in maryland, regarding threats, and some horrific threats that the individual is cut fetus' out of my client's wife's stomach and we're trying to get a prosecution out of it. it is very difficult because just lick in the supreme court case, can you prove inch 10th? is this somebody just blowing off steam oresighting

rap lyrics or is it a threat? do you have to wait until the person carries it out without doing something. and we have a difficult time, in balancing first amendment against threats. the way the law was written is that the internet service provider is immune from liability and they don't have to turn over the identity. you have to look at the this is an issue of cyber bullying and if we look at the young man who jumped off the bridge because he was being cyber bullied by a fellow college student. and that's the stuff that's unacceptable. and you won't find somebody who will defend the free speech of others more than i am. the internet has been an incredible gift to the world, we can all connect. and do things, but at the same

time the anonymity part, and the unbelievable fro dom that people have, to abuse others, in a public says it is scary. block them. no because you have to remember, perception travels halfway around the world. so words shape perception and maybe the individual who said they were going to cut the fetus out, but maybe someone who was inspired by those words and acts on it. i was only saying it, i was kidding, and the person might be fueled to act and that's where it has become very dangerous. it can be weapons too. bruce jenner's transition, to caitlin jenner, including her "vanity fair" story has been mostly well code and they question whether an upcoming reality show have cheap ended the celebration. we'll get your thoughts after

this. is jenner a role model or could this have been done in private? it's the best way to -- tremendous courage. is it about breaking bar errors or breaking the bank? thisthis is as content wasting of the kardashian lie. does this matter, publicity campaign and help? in dealing with all the problems it has to deal with. it's been fascinating to watch, we're never had someone this famous come out and be connected had to this celebrity reality culture, which is a monster. but at the same time, i try and look at it, what's the short and long game. we'll have this conversation, that is really very focused on caitlin and, at the same time, it's opening up

conversation about transpeople and, lee verne cox and janet who who are saying, they are in this and telling a story and maybe selling a story but at the same time, i know so many transpeople, and i see, in caitlin's face, the freedom of her soul, and i think she is starting to already, starting to talk about things, in a little bit more sophisticated manner. yes, for the vast majority we are so much more subjected to violence and poverty and job discrimination and, on and on. this just might move forward the community in terms of making transgender people less abstract to the general public and there are people working hard to make sure that the program is not sensational, that it is educational and that we will talk about the deeper issues,

and not just that reality show. would this have been better if it wasn't connected to the kardashians? if it wasn't we wouldn't be talking about it. because, laverne has been very visible since that show launched and never got the attention, that caitlin jenner is getting and they have done a great job of knowledge indicating the community and taking on you a very serious journey. they didn't disclose it on the show. he did it on a serious platform, with a journalist, because he didn't want the message to get lost and, that was very smart. none of this was an accident every piece of this. diane sawyer, and 20/20 doing a great job tremendous amount of work, if you what the

whole piece, it was excellent and amazing, and all the other back story and those that talked about it, that's the stuff that, i think long game. it made people to be compassionate. they were very critical of the community before they saw that interview and they understood it. education is key. there are many in the community that are -- that don't feel as comfortable being as free. cathy spoke about it, recognizing her privilege limp, and how representative is she still, of other people? not very much at all and she's acknowledging that, and it will get the media and the public to let people tell their other real stories. caitlin jenner kicked the door open and, i think we'll see a level of acceptance, we have never seen before.

and when you have someone who comes from such a high profile background, and you don't get to choose your role moments the notion, where you have someone who was so well-respected because of his olympics and then, with the kardashians, it brings to other people, who have never dealt with this issue a also bit of, i'm more aware of it, and because it is someone who was so high profile and hopefully that respect will transfer over. you have used the word respect and compassion and some are not. some of the detractors have started a petition to take away her gold medal because the olympian was competing against the wrong gender. it had more than 10,000 followers. she got 2 million. so forget that.

10,000 ignore rent people, we can deal with that. thanks for your time. straight ahead anger and betrayal, native american he, say the government has committed a act of war against their culture,. the indians have lived on that land for thousands of years and, one member said, this is their equivalent of their jer ru sue lusm.

and their screaming and i thought, umm i'm just gonna throw this grenade... >> after 13 years, he's now out on bail what is it like to have your sacred land ripped away by your own government, for the last four months, they have camped out at a place called oak flat, a sacred place and they're

protesting the federal government's decision, to hand that over to a copper mining company, and it has been protected since 1955. and when catch up with adam, who spend time with the apache and he joins us from cal california. how sacred is this land. this is a beautiful piece of land out there in arizona and one member said, this is their equivalent of jerusalem and this is a very sacred site, and we got to observe but we observed a religious ceremony, where, indians were engaged indeed a practice that was very dear to their heart. ii want to take a little look

that you filed. it is a place that's been a place of ventnor raising and ceremony for a very long time. oak flat, part of the national forest, sits on top of the world's riches copper deposits a company called resolution copper has been trying to acquire the land for nearly a decade, in december they finally succeeded. imagine a couple of years from now, they break ground and you're standing there watching, and what's going to go through your mind? i probably will cry. now, there are those who would tell them, didn't own the land, it was just federally protected from mining. but this isn't shouldn't be included in that long list of

land grabs by the u.s. government from native american people. how did they respond to that. the indians have lived on that land for thousands of years, and we went out, and we saw, ancient cave drawings, showing people have lived there in that area and relics showing that indians have lived there for quite sometime and, it was in the late 1,800s when they were engaged with a war with the settlers and they were put into a reservation out there and that reservation the land was carve ked out for that and where they had lived. now, poverty is a major problem for native americans what was it like, for the apaches? they're 70% unthen employment out there. and, despite all of these mining companies that have come in, and i spoke to them, not many of

them work in the mining industry, they don't have the the training, and they're not hired . a lot of these mines to work and children are living in squall lore, right there at the reservation, it's a scene that you tones expect to see. betrayal is that the main word. absolutely, i think that's the best word, a member of the council, he said, to me that how ironic that this land swap was slipped into the defense spending people, the people have been at war for the u.s. department of defense and, this is the latest act of war. thank you for joining us. well that, does it for this week's show and the conversation continues on our website and on facebook and twitter. good night

. >> al jazeera america. i'm david shuster in new york. here are today's top story. escape from prison. new york state two murderers are on the loose. how did they get the power tools they used and where was the maximum security. shot down, a helicopter had to make an emergency landing. officials believe that gunfire came from the mexican side of the border in an area known for drug smuggling and illegal border contracting