continues on al jazeera >> we're here to fully get into the nuances of everything that's going on, not just in this country, but around the world. getting the news from the people who are affected. >> people need to demand reform... >> ali velshi on target. story you've been convicted of a crime and you've done your time, but when you fill out job applications, there it is, the box that asks have you ever been found guilty of a crime. the odds are pretty good you won't get the job if you tell the truth. ex-inmates say it would help if companies would ban the box and

that would keep them out of jail. that's our story tonight. welcome to inside story. i'm ray suarez. for a long time we've known that people who spent time behind bars are more likely than other members of the society to get in trouble again, but advocates for ex-offenders ask if we're really series about lowering recidivism rates, should we force people to disclose their history before getting work on the job application? prime rates are lower, inmate population is huge, creating conditions to move to ban the box. >> reporter: here is a peek inside of one of washington state large turn key manufacturers in airspace. look past the assembly lines of

sheet metal and you will find former convicts working. >> while there is a place in society for justice, we also have to have room for redemption. >> reporter: as chief executive officer karen lee explains, human services is part manufacturer, part training center and 100% the home of second chances >> our motto is a chance for change. it has-- it has been that way for 15 years. >> reporter: she discovered that while a large percentage of the people are hearing impaired, many of them were having a difficult time getting a job anywhere else. >> oftentimes if you can check that box, the employer just takes that application and puts it in the trash. they don't look at it. we can tell our clients that the employer is not going to put your application in the trash. they're actually going to look

at it. then our client has hope that they will have the opportunity job. >> anybody feel beat up about this process of looking for work? >> reporter: this man will tell you it is not that simple >> is it an automatic entry that you will get that job? no. you still have to be qualified that you're the best candidate. what it is designed to do is to get your foot in the door so they have a chance to consider you before they ask about the convictions >> reporter: he runs a nonprofit called conviction careers. he teaches excons what to do and say after they get a call for an interview. that's when a potential can and often will ask about a criminal record >> you can tell whether somebody is able to a job. after that it's personality, how you're going to fit in, do you need to be monitored, are you

going to get along with people or are you going to cause trouble. we want people to demonstrate that they're a great fit for their company >> reporter: why the city can't say whether ex-convicts have had greater success of looking for work, they have an office dedicated to banning the box. they will search through job application forms and fielding complaints. one success story is 21-year-old marques tailor. we met him two years ago when he got a job. that was after being denied for more than 100 jobs. >> when you fill out so many job applications and hear the same thing, no, because of your record, it makes you want to return back to a life of recidivism, to commitment crimes because you have no opportunity >> reporter: me is still at the

organization today and he believe banning the box gave him a shot >> it costs us 30 grand a year for somebody to be incarcerated. that doesn't include the costs of catching them, trying them, et cetera. >> reporter: a ban the box bill recently fell in the washington legislature, but leap isn't deterred >> there may be an employer out there that says, well, since it is the law, i guess we will comply. they will begin to change. >> reporter: the road to redemption starts with the ability to work joining me is two guests who served their term and they co founded a small business and training center designed to help returning citizens and veterans reenter the workforce. a lot of people probably don't

realise how hard it is, even without banning the box to reenter. tell us your own story. was it hard coming back be into the general community? >> yes. it was very hard. almost impossible to get a job. whenever i would apply for a job, they were immediately look at me and listen to me talk and then hire me and they tell me they couldn't keep me because i had been incarcerated was lying an opening? . i could have done that, but i just didn't answer the box. i sell i will explain in person but i never got a chance because they already knew how about you, did you find it difficult to be honest about what you had been through? >> yes. i did because when i first got out i applied for a training program at an automotive manufacturer and i went through the interview process and during

the interview they asked me where i had been for the past four years. i was honest with them. i told them i was in prison. they closed the interview down at that time and told me thank you for applying, but we cannot use you did you start this business almost because it was hard to get a job any other way? >> why we started this business, because we had to work. we didn't want to back to prison. we had to eat and clothe ourselves. we want to give back to the community and people that were coming out behind us out of prison and giving them an opportunity to work you don't have the box on your employment applications rest? >> no what do you want to know about their past?

>> i don't want to know anything other than are they a hard worker, do they want employment, do they want to make a better place for themselves in society because if they're ready to make that change, then we're ready to give them employment if you have been in prison for any length of time, are there just things about the work life that you're no longer as familiar with? showing up on time, getting yourself from place to place, because for years you've been followed where to be and-- told where to be and when to be there >> yes. that is very debilitating for an individual. when i first got out i was afraid to go very far away from my dwelling because i had been taught to stay close to the building, not to just wander off. it made had hard. technology stands still inside the prison wall. when you get out and all this

technology has evolved, you're lost. you don't know what a kiosk is to apply for a job. it is mind bog eling and that's-- boggling. that's why we give life training to use a cell phone, laptop computers if you're a home owner and you're hiring a cut above to come do your lawn, do your hedges, redo your backyard and that kind of thing, would you want to know if some of the men and women doing the raking and sewing have been convicted for break and entering or stealing property? property? >> no. as long as you maintain my yard, i don't have a problem with you as a company no-one has ever asked who are these people, can i be sure that everything is going to be

okay by hiring you? >> no, because myself and juanita as the owners of the company are always there and if they have a problem, and it's never a problem with our employees, but if they have a certain way that they want us to do their hedges or whatever, they come to the owners, which is juanita and i is there any difference in the work product in the reliability and punksality in the-- punctuality of those who are ex-offenders and those who are not? >> there are a lot of difference. annex offender has to prove them self and ethey know being late is not an option is on the job. there's always someone in line waiting on that job, your appearance and dedication is very important. i don't play any games with my people.

i teach them well how to perform their duties and i expect them to carry out the task as they're supposed to can people who come to work for you kind of get trapped because you are willing to take them on but then the next place they go after they've made a successful reentry, got a couple of years of work under their belt, the next place they go is still going to have the box and still will ask them if they've been convicted of a crime >> i don't believe it's called traps. if they don't ban the box, they will have to answer that question, but if they've got someone that can give them a referenc reference, they've worked for a person two years and maybe work ran out, so i'm applying to your company, will you give me an opportunity. i think it makes it easier once

you've worked for someone and you have a proven record of working. the majority of people that come out of prison don't want to re-offend, but without a job, without a place to live, without some kind of acceptance in society, there's nothing to prevent them re-offending. it is the only way that they can survive has a cut above been a bridge into other employment for people who are coming back out onto the streets? >> yes. it has. first we were in huntsville and then we moved to mongomery. all of our workers who did not want to move, we gave them letters of reference and they all have employment in huntsville with lawn care companies. now we've moved we're running the not for profit training

the owners of cut above the rest. thank you the box made it tough for these two women to get to work after their release, so you can see why they favor banning the box, but is that a one-size-fits-all solution? are there certain employers, particular services where the customer would definitely want to know a worker was onc incarcerated? . the inside story. >> this is al jazeera america live from new york. >> at 7:00 - "news roundup". tony harris gives you a fast-paced recap of the day's events. >> this is the first line of defense. >> we have an exclusive story tonight. >> then at 8:00 - john seigenthaler brings you the top stories from across america. >> the question is, will these dams hold? >> and at 9:00 -

>> i'm ali velshi, on target tonight... >> ali velshi on target. digging deeper into the issues that matter. >> i'm trying to get a sense for what iranians are feeling. tonight on inside story we're talking about banning the box. the idea allows former convict to not disclose their previous trouble with the law by checking that box when seeking

employment. i'm joined by an officer of the national law enforcement project and another. if we did ban the box, would this allow ex-offenders to permanently put that conviction into the memory hall or just take it off the opening encounter, the first threshold meeting with a prospective employer? >> right. i think what you're referring to is exactly what is a misunderstanding. when people here ban the box they're thinking, you mean i can never find out the information about a conviction history? that's just not the case. it's delaying the conviction history until later in the process. the reason that's important is because it gives job applicants the real opportunity to show that they're qualified for the job. so an employer can look at the whole person and that's what this policy change is about do we know, is there any

way to know whether that one thing, making it a second tier question rather than a first-tier one, actually changes the outcome when annex offender is trying to get a job? >> absolutely. this policy has really taken off. there are now 16 states and over 100 cities and counties across the hundred that has a policy in place. so we can see from evidence that this has worked. i will point you to durhan, north carolina, the social justice worked with the city and county and found that numbers of people with records did increase after the policy was implemented. that's good for the local community. that is good for the local economy. it is good for everyone really during the day today your members probably interviewed thousands of people for jobs, i'm guessing, somewhere between the east coast and the west. where does that fit, a person's

record, in the whole range of things that you'd want to know about them before you offered them a job? >> it depends on the business and the industry. the ban the box policy i say are not good policies for small business because it's that one size fits all. starting in businesses you're going to want to know that information about that. you're sending a sheet rocker into somebody's home. you want to know. there's liability on the line. if that sheet rocker goes in there and steals something, if the individual has a conviction for theft you want to know that sooner and have a canned difficulted discussion with this person at the interview not later on this is a genuine inquiry about someone's past? >> yes. small businesses should have the same right to ask that question on the application, that we want schools, financial institutions and even the little league to ask on their job applications at a time when there are a

lot of people who are unemployed or under employed, does this mean you're going to go to the bottom of the pile? >> absolutely not. i've talked with business owners who are willing to give convicts a second chance because they themselves may have had problems with the law. your first two guests were very addmirable. they're members that i represent that are in the same boat. they're willing to give the individuals a second chance, but in certain industries, certain businesses, you need to be very careful. if you work with vulnerable populations, you run a karate club, a day care. they need to look at the job application and say this is something i want to talk about with the individual during the interview how about that? >> a couple of things there. i just want to point out that this is a problem that is just tremendous. we have an estimated 70 million

people with some type of arrest or conviction record across the country. that's what the national employment law project has estimated. we need to join together about this problem. it can't upyou some organizations, we need businesses to come to the fore too. e-i have seen small street business owners say they support ban the box because it is the right thing to do for their community. they understand that if we're going to have an economy that works for everyone, then people that are sentenced practically to a life sentence of joblessness, that's not good for anybody. it's not good for small businesses or big businesses thank you to you both. how do you balance

out the manning the box? >> this is it. >> oscar winner alex gibney's "edge of eighteen" marathon. >> if i said that i'm perfectly fine, i would be lying. >> i feel so utterly alone. >> in this envelope is my life. >> if you don't go to college, you gonna be stuck here... i don't wanna be stuck here. >> catch the whole ground-breaking series, "edge of eighteen" marathon.

welcome back to inside story. we're debating banning the box on employment applications, a box that forces job seekers to reveal past convictions or

incarcerations. i have two guests still with us. crimes plot out on a broad continuum, but a yes/no question doesn't give you a chance to plot out somewhere on that broad continuum that may not be that scary >> no. you're absolutely right. athat's why a good job application is going to have a yes/no, but room for an explanation. what was the crime and when did it occur because when i talk to business owners, i reiterate how important it is to make individualised assessments. you should not be discounting somebody who has a conviction. what is the crime? is it relevant to the job? when did it happen? how old were they? a lot of people like to have that conversation. it gives somebody a second chance, but they want to look at the individual in the eye it was pointed out how many

tens of millions of people have this problem. this isn't just a recidivism-lowering social welfare project. this is something with severe economic consequences. if the futures of tens of millions of people are hindered. >> i appreciate that, but to put this all on the back of small business owners i think is asking too much. for the one fits all policy. some of the bon the box policies give discrimination lawsuit right to somebody who was denied a job unless they can provide a reason why. i don't know how the business owner would ever be able to prevail. there is really liability concerns there for the business owner is the burden on your organization, and organizations like it, to show this works, to

show the success rate is good enough to pass the sniff test of elizabeth's? >> fortunately, we don't have to be in that position because we can see what has been tried and tested across the country. now, the fact of the matter is this policy has been in place for years. i'm going to name hawai arcs, it has had a policy in place since 1998. that applies to private employers too. what we have seen are benefits. the kind of fear tactics that there is going to be litigation or this is on the back of businesses and they can't handle it. in reality that hasn't panned out. they have been able to make this work. we have seen chambers of commerce come on board for this because it is right to do are we at a point in our country's thinking about crime where we're prepared and look at the treatment of sex offenders as an example, to continue to pushing? >> right.

you really point out, i think, a key point here, and that is we can't just punish people for the rest of their lives. it makes no sense to take individuals who are ready, who are willing to work, who are qualified people for the job, and then make sure that they can't have the opportunity to support their families. there is one research that i think that is an important one to keep in mind, a study came out that showed in 200857 to 65 billion losss to our committee was due to the people with important prospects. that's something we have to contend with i want to give you one more shot. is there a way short of a mandate that these two arguments can work together and find a way that is palatable for your members to start this process? >> making that assessment is very important and for law makers to under that the hiring

process of a small business is different. it is the business owner you're asking to delay in this long drawn out process thank you both joining us for inside story. i will be back with some final thoughts on crime rates, work and human nature. if you have an opinion about today's story or a story about banning the box that you would like us to share. end us on twitter or follow me and get in touch at ray suarez news. tell us about your own experience. we would love to hear it.

many people who have served time will re-offend, but many won't. those that do become a millstone around the next of thoughs-- necks of those who learn the terrible cost to those and their families the consequences of breaking the law. cormss, individual bosses, government entities that ban the box will find many willing workers who go on to perform about the way other members of the general public do. many will shine, some won't work out. anxiety about the threat of crime is a lagging indicator. it has taken americans a long time after the horrendous years

of crime in the 80s and 90s to believe that our streets and homes are safer. perceptions of danger are more a feel thing than a data thing. ex-offenders will head to workplaces large and small without incident in the coming years and it won't attract nearly the attention of the inevitable case of someone who didn't have to disclose a previous conviction and ends up doing something terrible at work. it's just how our brains operate. thanks for joining us for inside. see you next time. i'm raise suarez. -- ray suarez.

syrian activists say five civilians are killed in a gas attack near damascus. ♪ ♪ hello i am jane dutton. you are watching al jazeera live from doha. also on the program, the battle for ramadi, iraqi forces say they have recaptured more than half of the strategic city from isil. one survivor is rescued 60 hours after a landslide buried buildings in an industrial park in southern china. a ruling is due in europe on how much individua