tv Up Front 2018 Ep 11 Al Jazeera April 6, 2018 10:32pm-11:01pm +03
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businessmen companies and government officials including associates of president vladimir putin they target seven russian oligarchs and the twelve companies they own or control as well as seventeen senior russian government representatives. south korea's former president going to haiti has been sentenced to twenty four years in jail and ordered to pay millions of dollars in fines she was found guilty on sixteen of eighteen charges of abuse of power bribery and coercion baucus said to have taken millions of dollars from the country's biggest conglomerates and exchange for favors. the former south african president jacob zuma has appeared in court to face corruption charges they relate to a two and a half billion dollar arms deal if faces sixteen charges including fraud racketeering and money laundering at least ten people have been killed in a series of bank robberies in the western nigerian city of office four policemen and six civilians died during the shootings local media say the gunman first
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targeted a police station before then using explosives to enter the banks and at least thirty two people have been killed off the government as strikes hit the town of duma in eastern gooch are quoting search and rescue teams on the ground women and children off thought to be among the dead you're out there with all of our top stories up front is next focusing on the kurdish independence and the increasing power of the chinese president say without his air. it's been more than six months since iraq's kurds said they wanted to go their own way but was the referendum on independence a mistake. i
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made the house and also on the show last month china voted to remove presidential term limits allowing president xi jinping to effectively rule for life so what is the country's most powerful leader since melzer dong mean for china and for the world that's our debate but first more than six months after a referendum in favor of secession iraqi kurdistan is no closer to independence instead they've lost territory to baghdad and may now lose seats in the upcoming iraqi elections so is the middle east ready for a new independent nation or has it all backfired for the kurds this week hardliner the kurdistan regional government representative to the us by direct mom. thanks for joining me up front last september despite opposition from
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a lot of your allies from your neighbors from the iraqi government the kurdish regional government the chaos in iraq went ahead and held the independence referendum in which more than ninety percent of those who voted supported your region going independent from the rest of iraq but what was the point of that vote given you're not independent more than six months later and you know if you don't get anywhere close to being independent more than six months later our intention was never to declare independence immediately we never and we still don't believe in a unilateral declaration of independence aren't an intention was to allow the people of kurdistan or express their will for the first time ever and also to send a message to our neighbors to baghdad to the international community that this is what people want we. believe that having a referendum would allow that to happen and then we would talk to baghdad about our future relationship so we never envisaged that we would be independent by now six
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months after the referendum so when do you envisage being independent well the dream of independence will never be extinguished i think that's a fact that everybody has to live with but we're also pragmatists after the referendum there's been a collective punishment of our people our neighbors have reacted the united states and europe were not helpful so we understand the realities that we live with right now we're focused on the iraqi elections which are coming up in may and looking forward to the next phase after that but you didn't answer my question when is independence going to happen it depends because it depends on our dialogue with baghdad we want to separate the referendum said that we want to separate from the rest of iraq that has to be a negotiated settlement but we're not in that phase right now we are in the wake of the referendum where the people of kurdistan are being punished and we are just trying to manage they're being punished you talk about collective punishment i'm
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sure the iraqi government would agree with that assessment but let's take your word they're being published is another reflection of how you failed your people then because you held a referendum you made these promises they voted for it the result was what you wanted and now they're being published so it backfired and you have. i want to clarify one thing there has been a punishment of our people but very recently in the past several weeks our relationship with baghdad has started to get better so i want to just put that out there with regards to whether we have failed our people. tell you something mettie i have heard so many foreign officials and even iraqi officials say describe the referendum as the failed to referendum the problem actually isn't that it was a failure the problem for everybody is that it was a great success seven out of ten. voters eligible voters turned out nine out of those who voted voted yes if you first of the referendum as it happened that's your definition of that's one of the six one of the definitions keep in mind that we're
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part of iraq where we have had genocide repeatedly not once repeatedly against the people of kurdistan most recently under rice is suggesting the current iraqi government is bent on genocide against rubio no no no i'm not i'm talking about our history question in history to right now yes but the decisions we make today and tomorrow are informed by our past for us we looked at iraq as a place that is not a home a comfortable home for the kurds two thousand and three came along it became clear the u.s. wanted to liberate iraq intervene in iraq we decided that we wanted to be part of this new iraq because this could be the iraq we had hoped for federal democratic pluralistic that didn't happen this is what led us to a referendum we have had to fight for our own survival in the survival of iraq by fighting dar sure isis we have taken care of one point eight million displaced people and syrian refugees we have had to deal with
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a crash an oil prices we have had to deal with baghdad many would say right dealing with russian oil prices and refugees well let me ask let me. point out that it would be easier many would argue to deal with the problems that you have had to deal with i saw oil price issues if you will part of iraq rather than all in a room but we were part of iraq in two thousand and fourteen because we were part of iraq we hadn't had a referendum our budget is cut off a war is imposed on us the genocide is committed against our people once again by the iraqi government to be so why did it happen because the sunni arab community in iraq was completely disillusioned to some isis looked like a better alternative i'm sure they regretted it eventually but at that moment again it was the failed policies of the. about your own lives in the west the u.s. the u.k. stood with you for a long time and yet the u.s. government says the vote and the result lacks legitimacy the u.k. government says your leadership behaved in a regrettable fashion said it was
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a counterproductive move why do all of these western allies of yours why are they so upset with how many independents movements america supported how many independents movements has the us has you know the sort of the first few that you wrote in kosovo ok many others they were there they were against a stone you're lithuania latvia countries that today are part of the e.u. and enjoys full rights so we expected those countries to be against our referendum what we didn't expect is the unsophisticated way in which they would go about it they didn't take into account that with every statement specially the united states but us and europe with every statement they made against the referendum they were emboldened our neighbors and baghdad to think that the kurds were alone and that they could punish us we raise this issue with them we said we understand you're against it but they leave after all i'm not defending anyone is ready to have i'm
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wondering they were. your ated it would became a self fulfilling your diploma you're telling me we didn't expect them to do this we didn't know baghdad would publish it it looks like you guys walked into this completely unprepared surely it backfired even on your own on your influence with i didn't expect that the united states have done a little i'm asking maybe we should but we also have an obligation to our people i am a diplomat and we have very good relations today with the united states and our european friends but we also have an obligation first and foremost to our people it is right that the people of kurdistan should be able to express their wish we didn't commit a crime by having a referendum the right to self-determination is and try and in the un the same you when that all of these countries want us to look up to. and abide by the rules of it isn't trying to in the u.n. charter the reason a lot of people are wary about independence as you know it's because they look at what's going on there already you look at the two main political parties your own
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kurdistan democratic party the k d p the patriotic union of kurdistan the p u k a lot of the critics of these two parties not just your party would say they failed to lay the groundwork for a stable government a stable political system a stable economy rule of law independent judiciary instead they've given your people a system plagued with corruption nepotism tribalism and that's why you know or maybe in the brain this is not the right route for an area like that well i would say that the achievements of the kurdistan region are significant if you look at where we were in one thousand nine hundred one when the no fly zone was first established over kurdistan in iraq we had just come out of one and a half decades of genocide by saddam hussein four and a half thousand villages were destroyed kurdistan was crushed economically politically militarily from one nine hundred ninety one to two thousand and three we had our ups and downs and a very dark period but we came out of it after two thousand and three to two thousand and thirteen fourteen kurdistan really flourished our economy boomed we
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created an oil industry from scratch all of the oil and gas wealth in kurdistan had been neglected over decades for the first time we were able to export our own or exploit our own resources you could agree that you've made significant achievements instantly and while you were there it was also pointed out there's massive corruption there is i mean the death of the deputy prime minister. said and i quote the pharaohs in the chaos quote confiscating lands building villages doing business killing people and journalists and that the clergy has failed to stand up to these people who appear on television a daily basis talking about corruption i think he was referring to a particular person when he made this comment but your wider point. about. corruption yes there is corruption could we have done better can we do better absolutely we can but let's also be realistic since two thousand and fourteen
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kurdistan has had shot after shot first our budget was cut second we've been engaged in a very costly war in terms of human lives and the finances that the financially correction predated the i saw yes i'll do it. in twenty sixty and i remember you telling me then that we could do better on corruption we should do to really only two years later it's getting worse not better there are hundreds of cases now according to the commission of integrity in the g. being referred to courts being dealt with you have the deputy prime minister talking about it in this very open way about pharaohs running but you know but i think these i think the deputy prime minister talking about it openly the integrity commission having cases to deal with these all show that it's a subject we talk about that it's something else i'm sure it's a huge problem it's a subject that we're dealing with and we are dealing with it in very practical ways we have. instigated a by a metric system of registering all civil servants everybody who receives a government pension or allowance anybody who benefits from the government system
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they are registered so there is no room for ghost employees with regards to our oil industry we have hired deloitte to audit all of our revenues and contracts going back retrospective lee we are taking practical steps and we are going through the rubble on the finance ministry but i want to answer your point from you have repeatedly said there is corruption i don't deny but there is a problem which is not just of this kind. of dealing with it but you can deal with it if it's built into the system is my point this is not just give up no let it go i wondered about you're going to create independent state but what's it built on you have a president that up until november masoud barzani who had to extend his term in office twice just to stay in power twelve years his son is currently head of the intelligence. this is his nephew is the prime minister kurdish politics are like a family business others are trying to get away from the arab family business is you doing your own family business politics in the k r g that's that's the future
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of kurdistan those people those parties that you talk about your glass family to be honest ok but let me their families who lead political parties very democratic some of those parties are elected by the public and the public knows who is the leader president barzani is no longer president of the region he remains president of the kurdistan democratic party when people vote and they will vote in the kurdistan elections this year as well as iraqi elections people know who they're voting for if it is these parties or the k d p let's say my party is led by the barzani's many people are proud of their record many people look up to them for leadership there are issues in our society and i recall surely every blue system which is dominated by nepotism and cronyism that's the defense of the people are happy with the rulers people vote they will have another opportunity to vote this year they voted for the head of the intelligence services know but they voted for the remember they they vote for the party that will have the most significant number i know you have a car and you have to go to one last question on the matter of kurdish independence
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joost hiltermann who directs the middle east and north africa program at the international crisis group he said recently it's fine to want to be independent people have the right to self-determination so it's not an issue of right or wrong the question was did the kurds have the capacity and was the timing right clearly they didn't have the capacity and the timing with terrible looking back now doesn't he have a point surely you must concede that at least. i'm glad that he recognizes the right to self-determination because a lot of. international figures seem to forget that when it comes to kurdistan. we we are right to express our will in a referendum we haven't committed a crime we said from day one this is a referendum to hear the voice of the people we are not going to declare independence unilaterally that still. change the position today we are looking for iraq that believes in the constitution that everybody voted for in two thousand and five we believe that the constitution is the way forward for us i believe if the
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iraqi constitution of two thousand and five had been implemented fully we may not have had a referendum no regrets on the river and whatsoever personally i have no regrets i voted yes and i would vote yes again and i believe there are many people that believe that. thank you so much for joining me. he's promised a new era for china but critics of president xi jinping have compared him to chairman mao lost one of the chinese parliament voted to remove presidential term limits giving xi jinping the right to remain in office indefinitely so what does one man with virtually unchecked power mean for the future of china and for the rest of the world joining me to debate this are sharon home executive director of the n.g.o.s human rights in china and professor of law at new york university and from beijing kindo hsu a political analyst at china radio international and senior fellow at the institution thank you both for joining me in the arena chinda let me start with you
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is she jinping or some say the numero one of his biographer serves he's now emperor for life. no it's different from the period run by a german more for one thing this is a nod to the cultural revolution and then to sixty's that we are living in the twenty first century which is the twenty fourth the water war media coverage and also social media no government no one person can basically control the whole society no it's not the case and secondly i think a lot of people don't really understand what's going on within china is specially with this removal of thermal limit i think that there is of course technical reasons they want to bring the through means that unify the with. and also chairman of the central military commission and also i think want to see this as part of the chinese explore to seek
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a model you know that's perfectly for the chinese so that's part of the i don't think this is the end of the chinese politics this is not to go the history predicted for the collapse of a former soviet union no it's got to the end of that process sharon home what's your view is china heading into a new even harsher era of strongman rule of one man rule well i think it's china's gone backwards and i think china has gone back backwards at least forty years in several respects one china has gone backwards because it's failing to learn the lesson of the cultural revolution and the lesson of the cultural revolution was to have all power concentrated in one leader that's unaccountable to the people truly accountable to the people will inevitably lead to mass suffering and abuses and that's one lesson the second is the difference between the mao era one is china is part of a global economy secondly chinese people today are not like the people that were
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closed off during the cultural revolution you've got almost eight hundred million online on the internet and despite censorship despite legal controls restrictive controls propaganda controls the fact remains that you can't control one point four billion people's views sharon shows the. power of a little bit here you can respond specifically i would like to respond to what you made about. she didn't bring being one other countable to the people and that leads to abuses. if you look at the chinese this is the changes to the constitution and the chinese government and the what they have done since the conclusion of the two sessions over there you see the tremendous changes that evolved about eighteen ministries or agencies about institutional reforms and also the national supervisory commission this is supra body for anti-corruption campaign all those
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efforts are actually a response to the public content of discontent about corruption and if you look at what china had to achieve over the past couple of years it treating the pollution issue you have to see what china has achieved basically something los angeles and the land in that case to achieve thirty percent reduction of the pollution in this densely populated area like the beijing or shanghai so that's the response from the government they are very responsive to the public concern so i would say you know the transit system is very different from the western style but it is very responsive. that we need to recognize the good things that china has done with our democratic model in terms of. cleaning up the environment extreme poverty development would you conceive. so there are three things to say about that first of all no one can tell us that millions of people have been lifted out of poverty
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and that china is leading and doing very important. in technology green technology and in dealing with the pollution problem but the third thing is is that growing inequality in china is a fact and that the economy is slowing down and that's going to exacerbate the problem the issue is not whether china western model chinese model i really want to emphasize that every system including the u.s. has problems and so the issue is not whether one system is better than another the question is whether the people who are the most directly affected by the policies and by the choice of the leaders have a voice and that's what's key and in china it is a hostile restrictive environment for any voice that is critical of the jinping or of the party and the reason the irish share and correct you cannot criticize
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here's even the front a supremely to the chinese model was supposed to be about the party elites coming together a meritocracy that was what we were told even by chinese standards this is a pretty radical move. it is a radical trend and if you look at his reelection that's by men were fully. about two or three thousand of them you and then it was really lucky to me to see to continue they really never actually of course you can do what we all vote or you can vote against them because nobody's. had to force you to do something you know and also if you look at the polls four percent of the chinese respondents thinks you know the government they have twice in their government and the sixty eight percent of them when it comes to the government of leadership. i think the chinese government will lead them into a better future before we run out of time let me ask you this about bringing about to the president of china being broke with tradition last october by not naming
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a successor of the communist party's national congress. clearly you're a supporter of is you think it's definitely not a problem but surely chinese politicians must be wondering what comes next he's not a young man. we don't know basically what happens the ten years from now fifty years from us or whatever is basically this. what we know what we know is that the stability and continuity of the chinese development rapid development of six point two five percent that's for almost a for sure for next year for the next five years or ten years that's the predictability that's us the ability of chinese people coming ok. well i want to say that it's president xi jinping has actually indicated quite publicly and repeatedly that he does have ambitions and he does feel he is a global leader and he does feel that china should be a global leader and it's reflected in the party work report it's reflected in the
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next five years plan so she jinping thought was absolutely a ship of the party and with the role of the party domestically and the role of china internationally is in capsulated in official policy given everyone agrees that china has opened up economically made progress economically on this president's watch on this president who is making radical changes conceded are we going to see political opening up as well are we going to see war quote unquote liberal moves more democratic moves than sharon. or you know because a lot of people with a look at the time with the background of the cultural background of the western culture in the western tradition people tend to use the western rules basically western rulers to measure the chair and the development see whether china is a democracy or whether china have checks and balances or whether china doesn't fit to this model or not no china will never be like the us that when there were none
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in the u.s. and india is on the. limbs that is a democracy developing and doing very well in poverty reduction. we have all the challenges we have are all models so please respect to the chinese development you know china has been successful chinese people are happy people see a you are different from ours that you are calm this country is that you must be bad this is crazy. so i think it's very important that when we see that when we say the chinese people i really don't think not even that you can say one point three billion people believe what mr she just said or what she jinping says they should believe if you think about the rights defense lawyers the human rights defenders if you talk to pensions and we go if you talk to intellectuals if you talk to the all the thousands of signers of charter zero eight lucia if you think about shuji go and countless of chinese citizens who demanded reforms and political
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reforms the seventy eight democracy wall the eighty nine tenement democracy movement these are chinese people chinese women feminists who are organizing peacefully around domestic violence issues and discrimination against women these are all issues that chinese society faces and chinese people have something to say about it and they have a voice and it's not monolithic and we have to help create the space that. mabel's them to decide what kind of future and what kind of present they want we'll have to leave it there sharon home to no show thank you both for joining me in the arena that's our show up front will be back next week.
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of. april on al-jazeera from the stories beyond the headlines phone lines examines the u.s. his role in the world's fifty years since the death of martin luther king we examine the impact of his assassination and the state of race relations in the u.s. today the award winning show earthrise returns for another season with stories about solutions to some of the greatest manmade environmental problems as the first meeting since the friends it vote is set to take place in the u.k.
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we examine how relevant the commonwealth is today between corporate and public interests up to the last drop unveils the longstanding rule for water in europe april on al-jazeera. winning the will of the people hinges on the mass media state p.r. machine it's going to overdrive. but just the spin fill in saying. we just don't know yet where the lines will be drawn between what can be said and what can't just that. some journalists decided to sacrifice their integrity for outside the polling the media opinion the listening post base time on al-jazeera.
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