in violently change their culture in fact the number of crimes in germany last year fell to the lowest in twenty five years but administration officials further defended the hardline border measure with homeland security secretary curious to nelson putting the blame back on the immigrant parents parents who entered illegally are they definition criminals illegal entry is a crime as determined by congress by entering their country illegally afternoon dangerous circumstances eagle immigrants have put their children at risk republicans insisted democrats must enjoy them to fund a transporter wall and drastically reduce the number of illegal immigrants admitted to the country trump says as long as democrats resist the border separations will continue. to joe castro al-jazeera washington.

well is there a federal law which allows for children and parents to be separated at the border look at that one then there's the florist settlement agreement from nine hundred ninety seven and an anti trafficking law signed by former president george w. bush in two thousand and six both govern how children are treated at the border but it's how they're being interpreted which is the main point of contention donald trump says there are loopholes and it's up to congress to fix them to stop the breakup of families controversy began when attorney general jeff sessions announced in may a new policy of stricter rules at the border for illegal crossings parents were jailed and their children taken away former president barack obama had previously set up family detention centers where children and their parents could be held together it was in response to a lawsuit a judge ruled the floor a settlement also prohibited children from being detained with their parents. let's bring on gas into the show we have joining us from philadelphia joe watkins

a republican political strategist in new york lincoln mitchell a political analyst and then mount dora florida by skype david ward a retired border patrol agent welcome to will let's start with joe than the scenes have been harrowing haven't they do you think they'll prompt congress into action and find a solution well clearly this is a midterm election year in the united states and so every seat in the congress that is the u.s. house of representatives is up for reelection and many u.s. senate seats referee election as well so congress may feel some pressure to do something because some of the seats may be affected by how they stand on this issue although i'm doubtful that anybody would lose their seat over this issue although it's right now dominating the news lindsey graham only reason have to lose this seat have. you explain that to us joe there's often a lot of skepticism and pessimism about whether a congressman wants to quote unquote take

a risk to try and fix this why well because members of congress want to keep their seats and so often times they want to test how their constituents feel about a matter of asli this is a matter that is bothered a lot of people republicans and democrats because it seems to be so he inhumane and it's caused the first lady malani attempt to speak out about its cost because former first lady laura bush to speak out to write an op ed piece strongly condemning the policy and obviously there are democrats republicans that think that this is terrible policy the president on the other hand this said that it's up to democrats to fix it to work with republicans to fix it and he's using it somewhat as leverage to try to get him put in place the immigration policies that he'd like to see along with the building of that wall between mexico and the united states senator lindsey graham from south carolina says that this is a problem that can be fixed by the president by executive order by the president's plan alone. what the president and the white house staff choose to say that is

a matter for congress to solve and especially for democrats to hang and i can see that david was shaking his head i guess in disagreement all throughout the first part of this has said that may give you a chance david to bring in the open space. you know the press in the media and the politicians have got their camera time to dramatize something that has been going on for years and years and years all because of their inability to get the job done congress is there passes laws they give the job to the border patrol and ice to go out and do it and then they don't support it this problem could be sob very easily and quickly we could stop the children being separated from their parents we could stop the deaths that happen every single day on that border and smuggling loads and everything else if we put border security in but these kind of these congressman are totally against securing our border for whatever purpose they have whether it be their little five tems their lobbyist whatever the case might be they refuse to

do the will of the people and this is for the baby then there are two bills which congress is looking at right now is not the whole point of the we may try and sell yes there are bills passed but let me be looking the conversation back to reality makes six are we ok let me give lincoln a chance to weigh in go ahead. i mean i'm going to say something i never say but lindsey graham is right this policy of separating children from the parents has not been going on for years it started a couple months ago and i resent it started a couple months ago is because they were the bigger the trump and miniature version or what would you know what i call my go to separate bill now you can add all ok how are we doing all day without him base nor job you're having is your sentence and we'll work on the border you david go honey or national television the best you can but what did you ever do by john come on let's have a conversation here like thoughtful adults for goodness sake we started doing this two months ago because the trumpet ministration wanted to that's not a controversial statement that's not a partisan statement that's reality yes it is true that the republican party that

controls both houses of congress and the white house could pass a bunch of laws to address immigration reform and you're right they don't seem to want to do that but this particular issue i'm not talking about border security more broadly i'm not talking about this surreal idea building a wall i'm talking about does the united states want to continue to be a country where we take children away from their parents on the border if we want to continue if we don't want to continue doing that we can go back to the policies we had three months ago this is an executive order to change this lens on him with that negative david response as they have it's been the longest may or may not act let me give david chance because he's been working at the border has a slightly different perspective of when this problem started to go ahead david on on why you think this and the problem that was just created to get me out of the mechanics of things we have two issues here we have a port aventura and then we have everything between ports of entry. people that come into the ports of entry with their families and children are not separated

period they're not separated they are applying for asylum legally they're coming here as request east refugees to come to the united states the problem we have on the southern border right now and we're over two hundred fifty thousand arrests right now down on our southern border it's what's happening between the ports of entry these are people that are coming the legally getting apprehended by the border patrol and then put in temporary detention until their cases are brought to an immigration judge usually no more than seventy two hours the children from that point are put into care homes that are high on bond is really a different think and does have a point in the way that those people who entering the bull without proper documentation was different until jeff sessions the attorney general began the the new policy you write this i don't see what you're outlining is not the way it has always been done for years i understand that but it has happened on several

occasions in past history with the border patrol that there would be a no tolerance policy of illegal entry and for thirty to sixty to ninety days a program was in place where people were arrested and charged for illegal entry that's eight u.s.c. thirteen twenty five it is a crime to come to the country now. we do need congress to do something with the bills that they have but in the past we have had amnesty granted to aliens and then the other side of the bill you know for some part has never been in force it's happened back in one thousand nine hundred six now we have this problem where people are being promised dhaka which enhances people to come into our tysons people to come into the united states illegally for a part of that dock a program to stop this we need to have a secure border and then look at it and i tell you i say not to belittle the word an i'll give lincoln a quick come back to what we're focused. go ahead would agree on a lot i think mr ward and i would agree on

a lot of think we both realize there are problems that the immigration system we both think it is wrong people entering that are not ports of entry that's a real problem i don't disagree with you on that but if we're going to talk specifically about this policy let's stay focused on this policy which is not a long standing policy which is something that could be easily reversed by average adolescent angst and so lay this on the democratic the democrats in congress know separating children from their parents and putting them in term and camps is not a long standing policy so i'm sasha looking i guess that had let me bring let me bring their way on that they bring joe and this time something that we go and chase for the stronger that the president could change joe as i mentioned congress is looking at a couple of bills but do either of them have an alternative mechanism a solution that will prevent the sorts of scenes we've been seeing of parents and children being separated at the border i can't speak with specificity on that i'm not sure that either of those two bills remedy in the way that. all of us would

like to see well that is really why in jail it seems that again the longer than the grandma should rule about whether any of these bills would help prevent the scenes what we're seeing at the border is not watering. well it is working of course by the devil is always in the details i mean there are lots of bills that are passed by congress but many congressman members of congress don't even read the bills that have passed and the devil is always in the details as the fine print it's the it's the and the way in which the language is interpreted that really determines whether or not the issue is remedied and once and for all we've had other legislation the past it's been well meaning that's and unfortunately it's ended up having consequences much different than than the ones intended so the challenge here is to fix the problem lindsey graham as i said earlier said that that executive or presidential executive order could change this point a pronouncement from the president an executive order from the president could fix this problem in one fell swoop without having to leave it to the house

representatives in the u.s. senate to fix it but nonetheless there are bills in place to try to remedy it i've not read the fine print so i don't know if the fine print actually provides the remedy that we would all like to see where kids are currently being separated from their parents i think and everybody is pointing the finger at each other saying the the white house could fix this congress could fix this at the end of the day i mean we literally seeing people parents and children and their fates being held hostage to political battles over whether we get funding for a wall while they are almost we are almost literally we are we're almost literally saying that this is kind of a political shakedown from the white house we're going to create this problem and then if the democrats don't do what we want to do want some related but different pieces of legislation we're going to keep this problem if the problem is the children being separated from their parents and put in places that are not homes

and the parents don't know about this if that is the problem that can be solved by a presidential order if if we as a country think that it's not a problem then we just go on with our lives but i think many americans whether they are democrats republicans or neither think that is a problem it is a human rights. violation it is a stain on our conscious it is a represents what if the worst of america rather than what could be the best of america and the president could solve that yes congress could also pass a bill but this congress under its current leadership and i very much agree with my colleague in florida has had a very hard time passing anything so we can wait around for that or the president and his justice department has d h s could solve the problem they created they've chosen not to do that that's the political reality whether or not congress will act or can act is a question and we don't know the answer yet david if this sort of political situation continues what does that mean for the southern border and for the people that i was going to consider it's going to be it's going to continue being out of control and it's out of control we have agents that are now babysitters anees

so-called determent camps that my friend lincoln has described which they're not. we have agents doing anything but work on the border and we need to have border patrol agents on the border protecting our country and it has to be an enhanced wall on the board to keep people from coming in and endangering themselves in the first place as far as the children this this drama that's been going on with the cages later the management of that as they are those people who may shop at the border and even if they don't have the correct don't commence want to claim asylum for example or escape domestic abuse in addition to having the obligation to protect the border do border patrol agents not also have legal and international legal obligations to the process people who say i'm here because i need refuge. ok i understand that but the one thing that the press and everybody else doesn't understand i hear it all the time it's border patrol border patrol portal the ports

of entry is operated by c.p.p. operations the old customs inspectors and i now suspect it's not border patrol those agents at the ports of entry are responsible for taking these people and that are claiming asylum processing them and then turn them over to adjudication officers for asylum those people are held in detention at times in family residences now what we're talking about and we're all this hysteria is going on is what's happening between the ports of entry where the border patrol is responsible for protecting our border we have aliens that come in they don't turn themselves into the border patrol they run and when they get caught then the border patrol has a responsibility to ensure that one the children actually belong to these people which over eight thousand kids that have been apprehended were not with the real parents they were barking and this is all part of a thing that the cartels have and people need to understand there's a lot more insidious things going on that border and all these children come in and

then the press would like you to believe it is very insidious what's going on and i'm it's great to have your perspective david alley to probe you a little further though and say all those situations where people show up and they're trying to get in there trying to run they're not trying to register themselves initially. if some of them then subsequently claim asylum all of a guessing that fat chance to make their case in that policy or a climate of immediate detention at the border we've heard mass trials and the sorts of pictures frankly that we've seen of kids being in hell but is it other guy drive or cages you know i mean what is actually happening to people who may have tried to get in the wrong way but have. asylum claims oh refuge refuge like it's ok i understand then that those happen that the only six come in illegally across our border will approach a border patrol agent and claim asylum we have

a lot of middle eastern and different countries like that have done that back that we just had several pakistan our mongol desha kemah on the southern border that claim the same thing but what we have here is the only instead tribes got into the united states to get to sanctuary cities or wherever they might be going and eventually they get caught in the smuggling loads they have to be held somewhere and the since there's such a mass number of people we have had to convert buildings as a detention facility for seventy two hour period until we can sort things out when children are held in these so-called cages i know you hate how they're being so throughout the county they are. to the to the green yes what are we supposed to do just make them out there but we're i mean with kids being separated and being held behind fences there are trials for their mums and that there aren't over being there are children being separated you have a children's section you have an adult section you have

a transsexual sex you have all these different sections in these detention centers where they and wings are sorted out they're given medical exams are given vaccinations that they need in the bed three times a day that given a cot until they can sort out with the h h s as to where they're going to be house from this point on now these cages that everybody's been clamoring about for stage there was an operation by people who were against detaining ayling to have a dog case set up on a on a sidewalk in dallas and there's a couple pictures flown around with a child held in this cage that was staged that's not these the facilities we're talking about that maybe there's another paper showing not so just so you can only get pictures and recordings and images and videos which come out from american media even visiting scent is in the south of texas all faked instead you see any fish you saw a very large structures up chain link to keep people in a certain location so they can be separated they're not in cages per se it's what's

the difference between met in a jail these people have violated the law then we have sorted out many of them a cluster of that's perhaps the problem are for means on the suggesting let's take the point that's telling can gladly go up go back so basically i mean the point that david is making is people need to be processed that's the best that can be done they're not being held in cages and that that's fake and they've ended up not the job of the border patrol to act as immigration attorneys or immigration judges i do understand that however let's be clear about the question of whether a child when it is put what is taken away from its parent is put in a cage or an internment camp or a chain link the syllabi either way doesn't really. matter either way it's inhumane i mean that seems to me to be a basic principle to say this problem is not solvable the problem of what we do about our southern border big picture problem difficult to solve not helped by a demagogue who in the white house but it's a big picture problem but this question of what do we do about this specific

problem this wasn't a problem three months ago we know the answer to this question we've chosen not to answer it why if we chose not to answer it for a whole lot of reasons one is that donald trump still wants his wall and yes to use your words there is an element of these young children being used as political hostages that is that is part of what's going on here but to get into this mission gosh to use a technical term about these are being staged and it's the media i mean these are just kind of generic talking points that people use when they don't like to have a reality show to them this is the reality my goodness you know i just should be nervous and i want to right now the united states larry states of america that's you know if we could we haven't heard.