revolution. is an engine we have to discover if those changes are reflected on the plate if this is q what is today q and future. restaurant owner i'm trying to read more today roots. it's on al-jazeera. and. you can. see. they're all full to be around ten million catholics in china the majority worshipping in government approved churches like this one in beijing. but many others do so in secret in so-called underground churches which means they're often under surveillance and so never totally say. they see themselves as the true followers of the catholic church in the official

church the pope's authority is not recognized but that may be about to change the reason the vatican and the communist party appear to be close to an historic deal a deal that would give pope francis a say in the appointment of bishops to the official church in exchange the vatican would recognize bishops ordained without the pope's approval in effect a recognition by the pontiff that the two churches should become one. their approach mall between china's communist party and the vatican is highly significant china broke off diplomatic relations with the vatican almost seventy years ago following the communist party revolution led by chairman mao. but now two of the world's most secretive organizations are close to announce

a good deal brittle the side the future of china's catholics. the agreement though has many detractors one prominent critic has called it a trail of evil and a sellout that critique is the former bishop of hong kong cardinal joseph said he's never recognized the chinese government's efforts to interfere in the church and for that reason travel to the vatican to warn the public face to face against any. today cardinal zen talks to al-jazeera. today how risky is it for people to worship in so-called underground churches in china i think. the situation must be very different at indy in a city when where you have a strong underground community there are mass every sunday many people go but

they don't have changes so they say mass in the private home and these masses technically illegal obviously either but everybody. everybody know the neighbors they know that they are singing their praises. and. the government should be known. because they be punished if it's illegal you know when i was teaching in shanghai i have my confidence so lesions samos in the end of them. you know what the people put on the the public security. in a one day they told me they say oh father's hand tell your father to be to be more discreet what happened. tell him to cross the door when they same us. you know why because too many people go there his room is small so they feed a staircase everyday kitchen down there and here people keep coming so they have to

leave the open that's so much the government whose face because that's tolerated that's against the law but no no mo there is instruction now from the first of february to enforce the law now and what is that will that this must. unlawful so people who now prarie in underground churches catholics who pray they risk regretting arrest yeah so the priest at telling the people priests don't come anymore we are now used dangerous the government told us they are going to enforce the law how many priests and bishops are still detained in china the year of year in jail not many not many maybe two bishops and there may be eight zero zero priests not more because they don't want to have

a mantis the margins create problems they have. more. improved methods to decide the church like what like. threats like and enticement what sort of threat or threat and enticement always you know to get they come to you they say oh no we know your brother has some problem at his workplace our do you want us to to put a good word there even say yes please. they have to collaborate. it was hell no thank you. we can arrange it ok or they go to a difficulty to say fired at that guy so he's black my overused black male that night. and he may come over you monday see oh do you want

a soup to send the car to bring him to the hospital is the same if we a said yes late even don't i said the good husband say don't i said that only they are law they can do anything the comedy is a lot there are a lot how much contact do you have with the underground catholic church today i never contact them actually because maybe ten jews and i tell them not to contact me from china because every is controlled but they can come now it seems that's easier to come to hong kong than before and so they come to see me and then they can send message through other people a number of years ago you helped get money to the underground catholic church money that was donated by a wealthy hong kong businessman jimmy lie twenty million hong kong dollars ali are

you still able to send money to the catholic church the underground suffix yes yes i'm having more and your fisher down the underground i would like to have more of the end of round but it's more difficult to do to be in contact with them easy to send money to them. but now i think. i find the more ways. you see the bishop may have many occasion where he things ace is good to do something or to help somebody. but he had to use the money of the that isis i suppose that i use has enough money but i am. a kind of outsider and the religious i'm not coming from the diocese so i have to be cautious to use the money of the diocese

actually i never used the money of the diocese so the money are help me to do all sorts of things which a bishop may like to do. with that money in the last few years we've seen a growing reproach more between the vatican and the chinese communist party affecting things like the appointment of bishops yeah that's progress isn't it is it a good thing in your view no not necessarily. but not necessarily but what we're seeing at the moment is a case of the of the vatican being able to expand its influence of china that is progress is no no people came to know that the holy see is ready to approve anything to legitimize everybody so they had did the conviction that just get ordained sooner or later delegitimize does really bad so that give occasion to the

opportunists to know that if they work with the government they can force the holy see to recognize them is no good at all and the holy see just in order to please the government they abstain from doing things they should do for him but they don't give bishops who many touches in and around when all the bishop died didn't give a successor so both churches in ground and of your church we can read about it so it is no good at all do you worry that the the vatican is giving legitimacy now to the chinese communists yeah that's terrible. table did must know that the church approved by the government is objectively schismatic i may hear.

again a breach of confidentiality but three or four years ago i had a meeting with pope francis for forty five minutes i talked for forty minutes he made only one interruption very short interruption when i said we have to agree that the independent church is church so now is already objectivity six months and the pope said chair at all of course so how can you know g.-d. minus escapes might be church which is just schismatic their company under the guidance of the government. the church doesn't change just because you legitimize or their bishops eve or those bishops or the majority of those bishops are slaves of the the communist regime there is no

improvement and now there are things the and the talking about what are they going to do we thirty bishops in and around there calling them to come up and did the bedouin say oh now we recognize the seven shops and you government our city bishops but i ask what do you mean that the government recognized the thirty people do they allow them to go on functioning as now in the underground in even it if the government should in no and so why did to join in. but you did association you feel so strongly about the vatican and the communist party jointly appointing bishops that

you flew to rome to see the pope and to talk to him face to face just a few months ago what did you say to the pope as it does that's a think. ok they say the last word to the pope ok. but the last word is not enough. i like to quote a hundred eighty and. he said sometimes formally verbal. seems at the door totally of the pope is respected but practically you are giving the power into the hands of the government so if it's the government which choses the bishop and then through the bishops continent which is fake at the present named to the holy father and the holy father to say the last would a case sounds very good but what kind of last word hanky the

pope can approve easily those names no no and so he had to be told ok you can beat up but up there we don't it is here up to the commies to make under the name now how can good dame come from the common is what they know about the quality is required to be a bishop why did you feel compelled to go to rome to see the pope a few months ago why not just send him a letter or deliver a letter to one of his emissaries here in hong kong why did you feel the need to go to the vatican because it was the second time that this desperate bishop in china santo once you send a letter to the holy father because they told him to resign. to make plays to be illegitimate even as community takes the bishop with the special put they wanted to retire had he reached retirement age was he more than seventy five never in force

that law in china don't talk about the age or the bushes are eighty or ninety is not a question of age he was asking for a successor for a long time they are not given now to give the place of the excommunicated that's a problem it's not a question of of retirement people who don't know the reality they may confusion for a long time he adds to retire but now he feels to retire to give it a place to live to excommunicated bishop i stand a priest to bring the letter not to the pope because he may not be able to but to to to to see the pope so today congress or even get a haitian tell him that please make a copy to do to the pope oh but i didn't know whether the letter which the pope because my letters i cannot be sure if they reach the pub because he never answered

the pope never answered the last my many letters he did answer the need even sign a. receipt maybe the pope didn't receive us or maybe. so i want you to know that we are situation so i was doubting if my letter has reached the holy father so now after christmas the second letter of that bishop came to me now i thought i must absolutely make sure that the letter richard holy father the only way is that i go there and put into ends the sects so i took to the fly in and went to rome is incredible it's incredible what did the pope say to you when you presented him with a lesser. actually you see that's at the end of a public audience so there is a queue of maybe ten bishops and i was the only so i was the first one to kiss the

hand of the holy father that the pope greeted me oh how is your health i didn't even answer his question i only his holy father i'm here just to bring you decide that priest one time to read it then i went away but then to my surprise in that up to no it was wednesday i received a call telling me that the pope is receiving you the evening of friday. so in my literature already father had a chance to look into the matter you know yes i told them or not to create under their case one. wonderful answer because. he is so clear what he's about and so i was so so happy and then i made also get a question i prefer to have you received oh my lettuce you know what was the answer

he didn't say yes he didn't say no said. i don't have a very clear impression. so what do you think about what what do you what are you going to not have a impatient of my lettuce they were so spicy monitors spicy in what way i could any with holy father i'm making so many questions he may be lost on the sleep because of monitors so how can he say patients so probably he did not receive my letters what was it personally painful for you to challenge the pope because cardinals are supposedly one hundred percent there to make sure so also because imus and easier. we are peppe east's we are fanatic about the pope but now i'm not blaming the pope because as far as i

know there is a variance between the pope and the people around him until the pope approves those things and make a senior church i don't believe that those things are coming for the pope so i have see some hope that the things may not so i think the pope is being misinformed by his advisors not completely aware inform i would not say complicating misinform because the pope is so optimistic and now these people. are happy to encourage his optimism and without telling him or did the bad things or the things he may not like to do here. like the negative things which happen in china which gives no foundation to any optimism what do you

believe the pope's strategy is for china because to the vatican the china must surely represent the final frontier u.k. see the pope is going everywhere and bracing everybody. to say that many time you don't see much good effect for or that ever would happen in cuba any improvement in cuba well the united states and cuba established diplomatic relations because the big church helped to bring about the downfall of communism in poland of value of the influence of the world makes only makes different things because they are sold different so different now i really i'm amazed what could the holy see do to put the united states and cuba together i really can't understand. they can reconcile only if

they have interest if they both gain anything now is easy surely not because of the holy see now he cannot give anything cannot promise anything and the holy father to police two brothers. and i doubt even though they were converted by the pope. he didn't say much against oppression of the dissidents now to captivate the good will of china the pope is abstaining from say anything against the chinese. but if the pope and she jingping eventually meet surely that's a good thing isn't it rather than having the pope criticize china isn't it better for the pope and cheating to find some way of working together i don't believe

those things do you fear the pope is selling out underground catholics in china for sure it's not easy money to to sell. anybody but if now we don't have any any direct information so we are completely in the dark but from the pieces. of things which lead out from those information what we know and we suppose to happen now is really selling out of the church do you feel that you couldn't must be you must believe that me a seventy years in china i mean spending six months a year in china for seven years meeting all kinds of government people all kinds of bishops' then you came have impression of how east

a celebrity and the calm this region. the communist party has changed so if they've lifted half a billion people out of poverty there is a growing middle class knowing the people a wealthy are in poor where they have been ever before no no no the burden for them is the party they just want to control everything they can give you what they like you to give you now just an example of what is allowed by the lord they can refuse you what is denied by the lord they can grant you what do you worry about if the vatican to stop pushes a representative office in beijing which is a possibility to use years years these are the a disaster we are facing a disaster indeed of which a church those bad elements those who really have no

faith but they are just on the side of the government for their interests those people now are happy because in these last ten years they did all sorts of things defiance to the holy see now they are will be rewarded the good people in the open church they must be very much disappointed because they feel betrayed here because they are waiting for the holy see to give them courage but now the obvious you can do it in these years always encourage surrender everywhere so now they just give up their hope now is to find the wood with no agreement to stick and hope for a change but none no change no use to legitimize asian of

a wrong situation but but they probably many people from the integral. may come out is this an issue do you think that could divide the church on a on a wider level outside of china i think many people in the university church may get a scandalized it may lose their faith in the in a pope that the poor pope has so many critics already read this one i am a very salty. and very sorry thank you very much. thank you. the promise of peace in the middle east is not. enough

but a new dilemma after the death of the man at the center palestinian struggle. now more than forty years after to stablish how far has the p.l.o. come to achieving its hopes and dreams concluding the turbulent story of the struggle for palestinian homes p.l.o. history of a revolution on al-jazeera. we understand the differences. and the similarities of cultures across the world so no matter how you take it al-jazeera will bring you the news and current affairs that matter to you al-jazeera. the world's primary could change producing nation. is at the forefront of the war on drugs we're talking about serious organized crime as a country where reaching a critical point while some have made fortunes many others have suffered at the hands of this multibillion dollar industry the author of this business will go on

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