as i would let's call this job. i'm rob matheson in doha the top stories on al-jazeera venezuela's president nicolas maduro has been rushed away from a military parade after an explosion the government says it was an attempted attack on the dodo the information minister says the president was not hurt but seven national guard soldiers were injured he is currently addressing the nation saying that anti government violence will continue to fail there's been a huge protest in israel led by the druze community against the controversial nation's state's law it defines israel as

a jewish state and downgrades the out of big language tens of thousands of people have crammed into television that have been square on saturday waving druze flags and holding signs calling for the bill to be revoked jews are considered loyal to the state under simmons has more from babes than a druze village in israel's upper gallantly. done is from a minority excluded by israel in its nation state law she's a druze arab and her two sons were killed during military service for israel. she makes a promise the men are going to have that if this law doesn't change i will get your bodies excluded from this military cemetery and bury you in your grandfather's land . back home is her youngest son yeah i mean his brother's fuad who was eighteen and twenty three year old sylar gave compulsory service in the military yeah i mean became

a prison officer in israeli jail and he says that experience changed his perspective he became a human rights lawyer and activists for palestinians in the occupied west bank. i feel sad a lot of my brothers was shit and crying for a lie in an illusion they may have thought the military would give them rights but this law just proves that israel used them like mr aris. the druze are in all ranks for example major general chemical abu rukun is the new coordinator of operations in the occupied territories there is no public comment from him any soldier showing dissent is suspended. we ask the soldiers and officers not to get involved in this load and to depend on us terry for and his delegation were given the promise of a new law giving benefits to minorities in the military but back in beit jan and elsewhere that isn't enough most feel nothing short of scrapping the nation state

law will do you can still sense the anger here despite political developments and questions about loyalty continue to reverberate one of them whether young people will still feel the same way about joining the israeli army. this former soldiers loyalty is tested maj decal tb completed his military service before setting up a restaurant business now he doesn't want his son to become a soldier. it's up to him but now i say military service shouldn't be compulsory it's all a lie that we've been living for a long time and the nationality law made this very clear. bates gens dead soldiers make the feeling of betrayal him more potent more than sixty names written in hebrew and below what now becomes an unofficial language arabic one of many measures in what most people in this village believe is

a racist law andrew simmons zero they each in his room with the rebels in yemen say they've attacked the king holiday airbase in the southern side to arabia using an arms drone though they say they've targeted a runway used by the saudi and m. iraqi led coalition to launch air strikes on yemen the rebels unveiled a so-called one drone last year they've used it to attack a saudi aramco facility and an airport in saudi arabia police in the us state of oregon have broken up a right wing rally in the city of portland. devices called flash bangs were used to describe hundreds of demonstrators and counter protesters police say the crowds were ordered to leave after throwing rocks and bottles at officers those are the headlines then he's continues here in al-jazeera after head to head by foot.

from the bronx at vote in britain. but real people to the election of donald trump . will govern our. people around the world again. to the political extremes. to what lies behind the recent rise in populism and authoritarianism. my guest tonight is an economist who blames the political establishment in her new book edge of chaos why democracy is failing to deliver economic growth and how to fix it she believes democracy is in crisis and some pretty controversial suggestions for how to say. and i've come to the oxford union to go head to head with economist and bestselling author. why she seems to blame

democracy for economic growth and whether her plan to save democracy by giving some voters more power and influence than others could end up killing it instead. i'll be joined by author of the production of money and one of only a handful of economists who correctly predicted the financial crisis jamie whyte director of research at the institute of economic affairs. and they form a new zealand politician and philosophy electra and jason pickel and i'm for apologist at the london school of economics and author of the divide a brief guide to global inequality and its solution. maybe the gentleman please welcome dambisa moyo. this is the first book they told where you would rob them help you with foreign aid without making the

poor he's a former goldman sachs banker. more welcome to you one of the central premises of your book is that the popular discontent that we see across the west right now for example the brics vote the election of donald trump the rise of populist parties is driven by the failure of governments to deliver economic growth yet many experts pollsters people who've studied this stuff would say bricks it wasn't driven by economics trump wasn't elected by the poor or the left behind it's a complete myth that had much more to do with culture and identity issues which you don't really address and well i don't carry on with my doctorate that i completed here at oxford a while ago in economics and so i thought there might see these issues a challenge through that lens i'm not dismissing that there might be other and you know aspects and i'll leave that to people who are focused on those areas to to make the case for that i am concerned about the economics and we do know that real

wages have come down virtually every developed country over the past thirty years social mobility has declined the income inequality has widened and so the threat of a lack of participation in the neighborhoods could people be simply given up on and work all these aspects have created and give them things like trump and bricks and . get that that's your prism and that's your specialism doesn't make it correct the majority of americans earning less than fifty thousand dollars a year voted for hillary clinton not donald trump when my daughter's in the rust belt states who said the economy is the most important issue for the country went with hillary on bricks in income class were not predictors of vote in fact views of multiculturalism of feminism the death penalty was actually a greater predictor of people's views on break so let me let me clarify a couple of things so first of all you know a lot of what you've just said certainly culture issues around immigration which have been basically. sort of put forward as them. an argument for breaks it and for for the rights of trump and populism more generally across europe to me are masking

a more fundamental problem which still has its roots in economics if people feel that their lives are improving their future generations lives are improving i would argue that we would see much more stability we have seen much more stability in those periods a good job than donald trump also one of the last from rich people the need to hold on people hold on the wall now if you hold it i'll give you a juggler i'll give you a start of a wages i'll give you a statistic that illustrates the story as you were aware the the general high level numbers that hillary won the popular vote by three million if you take out the new york i'm not about the state just the metropolitan city of new york and if you take out the metropolitan city of los angeles not california donald trump won the vote by over three million votes that is how split this country is people in new york city and in los angeles are essentially very liberal tend to be much more wealthy and tend to be deriving their welfare and in terms of their living standards from a global society and unlike you perhaps i take the view is no point to me making arguments that i have no basis in fact or knowledge to make you seem to treat

growth as some sort of magic bullet and yet if you look at some of the biggest problems facing the world today problems you recognize in the book income inequality climate change more and more economic growth is not only fail to solve those problems many would argue experts would say it is in fact a driver of those very same problems would you accept i would not and i would not accept it because i think one of the key points that people tend to miss is not that we have not gained from a model where we have depended on growth we have failed to redistribute that growth in a way that actually enhances the lives of many people around the world if i think specifically of some of the examples of this there are many policies today that are should have short term gains particularly western societies but have very deep long term problematic consequences trying to give a good example trade protectionism. the fact that the united states through farm subsidies and europe through the common culture policy have locked out the goods

that are produced in places like africa and south america have essentially created an environment where we have not only created more and more impoverished people but we've also created a fed into issues of political instability i'm saying deal with the real world not your aspiration noble aspiration which is occidental growth the oxfam remora every january they're putting out reports and saying the world is growing we know that i think the estimate for this year is that the eight wealthiest people in the world have more wealth than the bottom so we're in agreement that rose doesn't inequality in fact the increase i was very clear i said that the point is not about growth the fact is that how we do we distribute that growth and on climate change you talk about the edge of chaos but what about climate chaos is an irresponsible to talk about growth growth growth given experts like kevin anderson at the center for climate change research of said continuing with economic growth over the coming two decades is incompatible with meeting our international obligations of climate change well there's a whole literature which obviously haven't cited or perhaps you've not seen which is focused specifically on what we call green growth there's massive discussion

around this and in fact you talk about china india china is quite a leader head in terms of trying to near zero we of course there have you been there recently beijing has more solar panels than most of the other countries and they are i mean i could go young uns environmental protection and it's made formulated by yale university puts china a hundred twenty out of one hundred eighty countries in the world listen china is the second largest economy in g.d.p. terms it's ranked near number one hundred per capita incomes terms this is one of the poorest countries on that metric the notion that somehow they should wake up and they have an economy that's functioning at the highest levels is absurd the united states even in the last twenty years they've had cities where there's been mass pollution just flint makes michigan is not twenty years ago where they were polluted water and the notion that you're putting all this pressure on china which is still a nascent economy in many respects to me as for who. russia you cited judge it seems to us i mean greatest i'm going to agree it's not in your book you don't

advocate for sure until i mean i sure do many terms of crime having read my book yes how many women might know me there is a question i would have there was a man just my dilemma two years or less of a let's have a test on your book i mean it's a whole section i've mentioned multiple times and there are four times the words climate change appear in this two hundred multiple bit four times what pages out of three that i can give you the very very large it's only four and so what i'm saying is that it's great please do go home to me now tell me now though yes what is your position on growth and climate and summarize it for as innocent as well as i said i think the framing is around green we have ninety percent of the world's population that lives in the emerging markets ninety percent of those people including myself who comes from africa have been assured have been encouraged that we can live like americans live like british people you if you decide you want to go and put the genie back in the bottle good luck you want to go to the panel on this just before or do you want one last question i must ask this to you you were working goldman sachs back in two thousand and eight tell your is actually work there you were

there in two thousand and you know at the time of the financial crash that goldman sachs helped cause which killed growth many of you are you really the right person to be writing a book about growth given the association with goldman sachs i don't understand the connection the question is if you work at it institution you're part of an institution that did so much damage to the global economy and the newcomer and said these are the solutions for growth the biggest hit to growth came from the banks and from goldman sachs you know what you know what you're exhibiting is a pure lack of understanding of how the global economy works. so let me just let me if i mean. for you know many governments not just this government in this country but also government in the united states is a good example of this they have a clear and stated policy of cold housing for this is a policy where they deliberately encourage everybody to own a house it doesn't. what your income is in your ability this is your get to go down and say i'm not to become was to blame we're all to blame because we essentially

many men have a special role to play i think to please a very simple question does goldman sachs have a special role to play the play to five billion dollars for him and said we need institutions pay fines i'm trying to help you become a bit more educated in this appeal. so to be understanding i'm not just saying that we all have taken responsibility and you want me to give you a one liner i want to go so does goldman sachs have a social responsibility you know there's no special responsibility ok let's go to the panel question. to join this very interesting discussion i'm joined by. the author of the production of money one of hundreds of economists newspapers often wonders to correctly predict the financial crisis what do you when you see the arguments about the importance of growth as presented by them these are both here and in the book what you have. to be so you said government should be making formulating public policy policy requires boundaries capital hates goldman sachs hates these it wants to go where it wants to go where can it make the biggest

profits and you are advocating essentially a globalized economy where won't matter where governments won't matter where public policy will not have an effect because markets will decide and i find that that is a really deep hypocrisy in that you're trying you're on the one hand trying to blame governments on the other hand you are mostly in markets making the most important decisions that affect millions of people across the world but yes i'd like to respond so what is absolutely clear is that i am a supporter of this idea of globalization the movement of trade in goods and services movement of capital but also the movement of people immigrate as an immigrant however however we know that what is defined and explained in textbooks does not actually happen in real life because public policy and imperatives and tradeoffs and real politic the. the especially democratic governments want to win elections means that these things in law apply in real life jamie white's with us

who's a director of research at instead of economic affairs the i also a former new zealand politician and philosophy lecturer david david after mr david out of one of britain's great naturalists says anyone who thinks you can have infinite growth in a finite environment is either a madman or an economist with the. internet of course not you can't have it but i really couldn't agree more with them this will be the era of globalization imperfect as it being has seen. billions of people lifted from poverty it's really been the most astonishing period of success in human history in one thousand eight hundred forty percent of the world's population lived on today's money two dollars a day or less today it's about eight percent i think and it's coming down that is a fantastic achievement which we should be celebrating all these funny little i mean i find it astonishing that people hostile towards the processes that have brought

about what is close to a miracle ok let me bring in let me just bring in jason nichols waiting very patiently the anthropologist of the london school of economics and author of the divide a brief guide to global inequality at solutions jason i'm interested in the climate because daniel a very forcefully rejected the idea that there is a clash there you can focus on green growth what do you think about that through it's interesting because the only reports that were published by international situations on green growth were done in twenty twelve for the u.n. summit sustainability with interesting is that they did not cite any substantial models to justify this idea that rich economies can manage to grow while at the same time massively reducing material consumption of emissions down to the carbon budget or to be celsius since then fortunately there have been a number of key studies which i write a lot about and literally every single one of the models that has been developed shows that that green growth is not a thing it's literally physically impossible to have exponential growth of the same time as reducing material consumptions and reducing emissions fast enough to stay within the two degrees celsius carbon budget and to me it's fundamentally

irresponsible to have a book out there promoting endless growth in rich nations where it's not necessary in the face of all the research we have about planetary boundaries ok what i thought was promoted and this grew up in developed countries that's not in my book i don't know whose book that it is because it's very clear it's very clear in your book that you make it would be up there i mean i'm not in your book you're talking about the united states you're talking about nations like you're going to talk about president talk about trying to say these people are upset because there's not enough growth you're trying to say we need it now we're going to go out i'm here and i went into every building. just saying i want to be here to defend myself. here. and i don't worry about the united states growing at three percent i worry about our emerging countries i talk about this very explicitly about emerging countries growing below seven percent you need to grow at least seven percent double per capita incomes in one generation i'm desperately worried when south africa russia brazil are growing a one two percent i am worried that india is growing four five percent less and you also want all of america in the u.k. otherwise what you're going to own way is only to the extent that public policy is

this is very right about global warming on the show going to right on mr workaholic policy ok the most provocative chapter of your book that's got the most attention of the reviews and people of it so far is the chapter seven which is called blueprint for a new democracy in it you talk about various proposals found form and you can you quote you say quote radical reform of democracy is needed to save it from decay one of your most contentious proposals is to have voters in the west pasta test a knowledge test a civics test in order to gain the right to vote surely you must see how tests of that kind could be deployed probably would be deployed to disenfranchise paw those with less access to education minority communities absolutely and i talk about that i mean obviously i am black obviously i'm a woman an obvious stem from africa if i were to proport and to support types of regimes or systems that actually do not allow people to vote based on a whole list of adjectives race gender wealth land ownership i'd be the first

person to be disenfranchised would be crazy and i've been accused of being crazy i'm not that crazy to suggest that i should not be allowed to vote you out until you see just to be clear as immigrants i'm sure there are many immigrants in this room they would tell you if you want to be a citizen in this country you want to be a citizen in essence you have to pass the test it is already the case so i don't know if people aren't aware of this and it doesn't matter it doesn't do as you well know to try to eliminate my argument i said it doesn't matter what your income or your origin or your race or gender is when you're an immigrant that shows up. in these countries you have to take a test all i'm suggesting is the test is designed to to reward people for engagement you mentioned reward many people would say voting is a right not a reward for going aren't you don't think i can and a lot of and second percent participation rates doesn't mean a lot are two or three percent. across the average across europe in the united states fifty percent thirty percent are people who are low income we do not want that situation the idea is and you make it harder for them to put into your hold on hold on a very well you don't you don't understand the book once again i don't understand

because the argument was very fast and as well but yeah you probably want. the i mean. just to just deal with the discrimination part you say you're a black woman from africa is that why propose a test when in the us deep south literacy test we explicitly used to disenfranchise black because once again you're not you're not appreciating what i'm trying to do which of which there are two goals number one we want to increase participation rate we want to ensure that the ideal of one man one vote which is essentially the mantra that everybody's been told for many years about liberal democracy we want that to hold as many people must vote but we also want to make sure that the people who are voting have some good knowledge of what exactly we're both voting on the day after break that i'm sure many people know this apparently the most googled term is was what is bricks or what is. well it may be it may be but it is you know what in a world of fake news even urban legends become fact and i think that whatever the

case in a world of news i don't even lead by this because they are fact i don't mean they become true what i mean is that it goes around as you said urban legend start to quote it like myself and i was very clear. i don't know it to be untrue do you know it to be untrue with certainty yes so you google did a study of thousand people. you're going to extrapolate from a thousand people to all of the people you know ok let's all be over the brink so that's sort of why don't you start with one of the questions the point of the matter is. i was trying to explain to you that the book is designed to target two things yes participation rates and to ensure that we have a knowledge of god across let's deal with the more controversial propose you see that don't just people should pass a test the people who are more qualified or more knowledgeable should have more vote or more influence you say quote three tiers of voters the unqualified the standard qualified voter and the highly qualified voter in the world of bricks and trump and populism in the far right you really think giving some people more votes than others based on education will stop populism or help populist ok so let me

take a step back and explain exactly what this chapter seven is doing chapter seven offers ten proposals these proposals are not supposed to be taken in wholesale because the country sent to different levels of democracy but also very importantly the all have some precedent somewhere in the world when the world so you're picking on point around this question of ranking voters that already exist already in the united states in the democratic party superdelegates have a bigger weight in switzerland there is a massive movement by the young parliament there to actually increase the participation in fact the weight of young people between eighteen and forty so that's double the weight of you over think people will go crazy if certain people get more power more votes than them based on their educational qualifications you know you think it will increase or not listening and nobody said anything about education when they get a test is based on participation not on education you're taking sentences out that

i have a broader context of imagery to in context page to a woman waiting could also be tied to one's professional qualifications such as certificate as a doctor teacher lawyer employment status level of educational attainment on the assumption that excelling in these domains makes one more likely to make well informed choices in the voting and once again i'm thinking that i am ex blaming if you actually read the paragraph before that you'll see that i was essentially thing here is how the argument goes the argument would be then you could have votes based on education and if you read that part after that. i quickly dispel that ok let's go to our panel and you are eager to come in where i want to just to just remind the so why we have the french revolution and why thomas paine read the rights of man and wife mary wollstonecraft wrote the vindication of the rights of women but i think i found the book disappointing in that it was show it's true that participation rates have fallen but i think the question to be asked is why have participation rates for it and that's not asked in the book instead you're trying

to tell patronize the public tell them that then they haven't got it right and they need to be tested and trained in order to vote instead of asking why they're not participate in the not participating because they find that markets are invisible i'm accountable remote markets are making decisions that affect their livelihoods jamie shaking his hand why there is they do want to be diverted by this from the idea that markets make decisions and people make decisions i think that there is a problem with ignorance since each vote has very little influence on the outcome of the election it's not worth investing a lot of time and it to to get the the knowledge you would need to be informed voters and i think it's very interesting there are lots of people come up with ideas about how to deal with this i'm not actually all that keen on your specific ones not all of them but i think it's a really worthy area of inquiry and we don't want to hysterical reaction to any proposal that it's undemocratic or all democratic systems have undemocratic elements in them otherwise they wouldn't function at all i think we've got way too

much democracy you know in the sense that far too many decisions are collectivized and they're made by people ill informed and it's wonderful to see somebody trying to engage with these issues i went on for tonight obviously jason we have too much democracy jamie says there are. so i actually think we've done yourself a disservice to be so because your last chapter is full of these interesting proposals about gerrymandering about media regulation etc etc but then you give this kind of absurd because. about where the votes are which overshadows all of that and no one's talking about any of your actual good reforms so i think she probably wants a position and then talk about the other. who will have heard about gerrymandering on campaign finance i mean i want to be inoffensive and i want to make when i want to make yours i think the biggest issues about democracy you actually fail to address at all and that is this if we're talking about the global economy we have to look at the institutions that are governing global economic policy like the world bank and the i.m.f. which we're voting power is monopolized by the us and

a handful of rich nations where the global south which has eighty five percent of the world's population has less than fifty percent of the vote on crucial decisions on macro to see the effect that i written extensively about this my book dead aid was specifically targeting international institutions and the fact that the put the policy making decisions were centralized at a particular particular place where i'm very much removed from from recipient countries you say in the book you re critical of professional politicians as are many people and you talk about how to raise the standard of people in public office that they should have experience outside of politics of real world jobs how do you feel about the president of the united states to the electing a c.e.o. billionaire make america more stable less corrupt and so i don't necessarily like the way the president talks about women and fact i don't like the way talks about women that i told i don't like a whole host of other things but i was three is the american economy is functioning this getting stock market high is all the time their unemployment rate not just for the average of the society but also for minority groups is that all time lows there

are some big concerns that they're dealing with but we all have to accept that americans have made enormous sacrifices and unfortunately until european governments start to take more responsibility for what they have to pay and more generally we start to feel a bit sympathetic for what is happened to that an economy and that country i think we're being a bit too simplistic ok on that note we're going to take a pause join us for part two of a very lively discussion here with. we're going to talk about china democracy development and we're going to hear from a very patient audience here in the oxford union after the break. the first batch of u.s. sanctions against iran go into effect on august sixth. as iranians brace for the impact will be wrong. covering the story from their perspective looking at what sanctions mean for iran's economy and its people a special coverage on al-jazeera. on counting the cost

pakistan's new leader is facing some tough financial questions we'll be taking a look at the economic and human cost of the extreme heat events plus china the u.s. and saudi seen economics counting the cost. i'm about to send in doha the top stories on all jazeera venezuela's president nicolas maduro has been rushed away from a military parade after an explosion the government says it was an attempted attack on the door to information minister says the president was not hurt but seven national guard soldiers were injured the president has just finished addressing the nation during which he's accused the colombian government of making an attempt on his life. the druze community in israel has led a huge protest against the controversial nation's state's law it defines israel as a jewish state and downgrades the out of big language the jews are considered loyal

to the state it's the first time in recent history that they've staged a large protest huth the rebels in yemen say they've attacked the king col of the air base in southern saudi arabia using an arms drone who say they've targeted a runway used by the saudi and amorality led coalition to launch air strikes on yemen the rebels unveiled a so-called one drone last year they've used it to attack a saudi aramco facility and an airport in saudi arabia the conflict armament research group says the drones do not carry missiles but they have been used as suicide drones to target saudi air defenses in yemen brazil's jailed former leader louis and nothing a little of the sylva has been nominated as the candidate for his workers party and told his presidential election is currently serving twelve years in prison for money laundering and corruption polls suggest he still remains the most popular leader in brazil the health ministry in democratic republic of congo says three

people have died from the latest outbreak of the a bowl of virus the number of confirmed cases has risen to thirteen the world health organization says this outbreak poses new problems because it's in north kivu province where several armed groups are fighting just a week ago the r.c. declared an end to a separate outbreak in the northwest that killed thirty three people. police in the u.s. state of oregon have broken up a right wing rally in the city of portland. devices called flash bangs were used to disperse hundreds of demonstrators and counter protesters police say the crowds were ordered to leave after throwing rocks and bottles at officers it's the third rally to be organized in the city this summer but the right wing patriot prayer group those are the headlines next on al-jazeera it's head to head by phone. a full. time here in

new york city doing with best selling author economist she's got a new book out the edge of chaos. what i didn't get reading your book is that you heap praise on liberal democracy on capitalism usually want to save it from some of the problems that undoubtedly faces market but then you also are full of praise on china and you talk about how quote economic growth is a prerequisite for democracy not the other way around so is democracy i'm wondering something you thing that gets in the way of growth and prosperity so it's a brilliant question that i've that i've talked about there's a lot of fantastic research out about this because ultimately we want a democracy that functions and survives. which is he was a professor in the united states talks about this is about a model that predicts how long democracy will survive based on the per capita incomes and in a country and its arguments very which i subscribe to this very basic which is that if you don't have a middle class that actually is participating in the in the process that's voting

then you end up with with a very narrow set of voters and that is a system we don't want to support we want to have a system where the population is a critical mass to hold the government accountable and they've argued in previous work my book dated for example talked about the failure of democracy in africa precisely because at this point our governments very rationally are able to pay attention to our foreign aid because they don't have to rely on the critical mass at home and so there are there is i believe a very clear correlation so i know you don't like simplistic yes and no questions but are you saying then yes we clear the so the chinese model the undemocratic authoritarian model is better for growth for the economy than a liberal democratic model at this moment in our history ok so once again i do have to explain they're they're essentially you're comparing apples and oranges the proverbial apples and oranges these are two very different idea law. systems western ideology puts the individual as paramount the most important entity is the

individual china's model is based on prioritizing society the entity of society as the most important entity the reason this import is this is critically important is that there are enormous social costs from a model where you have an individual as is paramount many of those costs we've kind of swept under under the rug population growth so the the idea that i can have as many children as i want that's great that's my freedom that's my right i'm all impinging on nobody's rights in theory but in practice we know issues of climate change issues of. green growth and trade offs around growth but also in terms of health care there are many ways in which this idea of i can do whatever i like actually does impinge on society's ability to grow and transform the chinese model is not at the end of the day the only model and the best model because it also has its own costs but this is the trade off that we're dealing with a little twisted in a little human rights abuses it's a dictatorship well china is also the largest foreign lender to the united states and so for all objects and perhaps sitting human rights i'm just saying i guess i'm

just saying that you should not be very good if your living in germany is very clearly going to be very very limited every lyric therefore about how first of all we can go into history and talk about suffrage nine hundred seventy one was the first time that in switzerland women had the right to vote we can talk about the civil rights movement which is only in the one nine hundred sixty s. in the united states so that's not all get hot and bothered about where china is china is on a path it does have to do a lot of work in its democratic process it's already underway in many democratic on the way most people say it's going the other direction big problems of the first floor first of all if you go to china and spend time there which i have there have democratic elections at the mirror level there is innovation already happening in that political system and i would just really itself to into law you've met with a vision here always allow for i think it's very this is this is the problem i want to avoid because we're very good at spending time talking about countries that are blatantly non-democratic will act. the this book and i think where the focus really needs to be and where the problems have come just in terms of the rise of populism

and also the financial crisis these are in the west that solve the problem tell me your focus wasn't the worst it was the developing world yes it is ultimately because public policy comes from the west you talk about you know not giving the west a pass most of the guests on the show actually many of them have been from western governments i've held them to account but when you say china is masterfully executing a carefully choreographed plan for growth which is largely attributable to its political system it does sound like you're endorsing that political system which is a terrific dictatorship i'm merely saying we cannot pretend that over three hundred million people have been moved out of poverty in thirty years in china the bottom line is that has been done and no other country in history or pre-history has ever been able to do what the chinese have done i don't think we should spend a lot of time pointing fingers at china you know physician heal thyself position is our economy is and i know but little of it is going to get in the way as i get your call i said i said our is a fundamentally without political economy city economies and put if you let me finish economies and political environment are under siege right now they are in

the u.k. in the us in the worst. i'll give you we don't have a single elise what we have is about i'm a big critic going to let her sleep while we're on the train your level don't lose yourself voter participation rates are low number one number two money money has seeped into the political in this is a bizarre argument that's all well she jumping well that then you have action all well and good vote away then because i must get my me money. has seeped into the political process ok one hundred fifty eight alice agree with everything you're saying i'm saying offering we're going to show you that i'm offering a perspective that's focused on our own democracies where we have the happy lism we have a gala dinner and then i also have a job. we've got hung garion we've got a hunger in prime minister oban talking about exactly how russia one hundred using forty percent of the energy into this country this is class a result you say because of something you wrote you're a very influential woman your best selling author the. when we invited you on the show your millions of dollars of social media when you say china's contemporary economic success is largely attributable to its political system is that not some

might say that's a response to because it sounds like you're saying that's the system you need for growth but it's a good system let me ask lane what i think the virtues of that system are that system is a long term system we have base fundamental schism between the long term economic challenges and headwinds that the global economy is facing led by developed countries things like debt etc productivity declines versus the short termism imbedded in the electoral process in the united states have elections every two years this is incredibly destructive and creates this mismatch between long term economic challenges and short termism the political system the chinese model doesn't have to deal with that they're not seduced by today's voter or they don't need to seduce today's voter in order to remain in often political office ok let's go to our panel jason pickel is an anthropologist at one school of economics when you hear me talk about china in that way does that make sense to long term ism. on this argument very frustrating and the reason is because the book is basically about the value of liberal free markets and you say that we need we need more of

them but then you go into detail about how you know you are the new deal us it's exactly the opposite economic ideology so with the words actually do you follow most of it's quite confusing universally true. so i think it's pretty obvious because the new what you describe the new deal manhattan institute. sort of manhattan project china what they have in common they have the government playing an incredibly important role governmentally with governments not seduced by short term voters every two years or every electoral cycle that is what they have in common things they're perhaps not allocation decisions are based on long term thinking long term planning issues which focus on future generations and basically target of the wrong enemy it's not it's not democracy that's a problem the new deal happened in a democratic society so the market is proud of it it's not democracy that's part of the problem is here is free market capitalism which is soft. short term assist and so the. solution i have ten very ten very clear problems with democracy we don't

and fortune don't have the time for me to go through with them the notion that democracy is not a problem is mad it's crazy we're looking at across europe right now we've got masses of populism. a whole host of here my hopes were here at the moment ideology to actually support the consumer first of all i'm told i've never got a story i didn't have to anyway but can i just because that is at the crux of the matter he's just asked the question i want to know what ideological model she supports i am not an idealogue let me be absolutely clear i was and i will no no nearly always say none of your ideological he rightly pointed out that i'm not ideological obviously a lot of the line is that there are definitely benefits and merits from the capitalist western system there are also very clear benefits from china jaimie democracy is a problem not a problem when it comes to economic growth where do you stand on. well i one of the first agree with the basic position that democracy isn't required precursor of economic growth and in fact if you look at the economic growth that occurred in the

united states and britain in the nineteenth century which was basically founded on the institutions such as private property in the rule of law and so on those institutions got came into place the british legal system prior to anything that we would today call democracy and then democracy came later so the basic point i think holds what's going on in china is indeed completely different and that isn't a rule of law liberal democracy type system but i think that the main point is it's see that democracy is not required because the end indeed can get in the way for the kinds of reasons that the base is pointing out that. instead of setting up the institutions required for a stable and developing economy you get kind of politicians doing deals with the electorate in a certain sense of the short term in ways that are destructive. but by the way i want to say that i am an idealogue ok. i didn't say that the most popular president of all time was receive felt and that was because employment was high because

people had jobs people had decent guns and they had public services and they loved that and they participated and they voted what we have had since nine hundred seventy one and liberalization near liberalism is that people have found themselves becoming disempowered because there are forces beyond their control beyond the control of the governments of parliaments run fashionable it's because part of instead make the decisions anymore where you stand on china is that a political economic model where the of a nation where it's a thought authoritarian it's socialist communist that people are educated the people are how is that like many governments in africa that people have cared for and the markets manage but then there's a lot of social unrest which is repressed brutally by the government i think it's not very surprising that we're looking very fondly back in the my. one hundred thirty is when actually the civil rights movement was just gaining momentum in the united states and yeah it's all well and good to remember those good old days but guess what people like me were not even allowed to vote at that time so i mean it

might be if might it might already oh yeah you said it not i so there are some significant weaknesses in the democratic process this is absolutely the case i mean the notion that we can sit here take foreign direct investment from china trade with china have china lend our government enormous amounts of money and then turn around and say well this is the big bad wolf and we don't want to actually deal with them i think it's possible ok let's go to our audience here in the oxford union. where is your hands wait for the mark for him to come to you your experience if i can go back to the question around the way to devoting. the south africa post apartheid south african constitutional court said that the vote of every and each and every citizen is a badge of dignity and of personal quite literally says that everyone counts now given the voting is not just an instrumental exercise it's also an exercise in personal self was saying that some people can vote others can't vote and was small isn't that just fundamentally offensive well you know i have

a sense of what you mean by offensive i mean i'm not really interested in emotional reactions i'm more interested in something that's quite sustainable this is about engagement it's how it is that we expect citizens to engage in the process i think that we need to explore everything i was very clear that i do not think that this type of with voting works in a general election i consider myself pretty well read and pretty engaged and quite interested in what's going on in the world but i would not argue that i actually know what the best use or what the best decisions around health care system should be and i do believe that if i spoke to doctors nurses or people who work in the medical facilities they'll be better able to tell me dummies of doctors. we would have a national i know what you're going to say we're not sure i understand you whether they wanted to have a public health care system they do there in the back yes you thank you. from your comments it sounded like you make your making a very. broad distinction between governments and private companies and the free market is this distinction reasonable and that for example if we were to limit

protections that that government force wouldn't private companies like goldman sachs operate like governments so it is absolutely the case that we now live in a world where corporations but not just corporations wealthy individuals are taking a bigger responsibility and bigger role in the participation of public what things were used to be the purview of only public affairs public government think about the gates foundation think about many other foundations around the world that are delivering health care outcomes outside of the electoral process education etc so these lines are certainly becoming more and more blurred i personally think that we are moving more into the world without requiring that not only because shareholders are demanding it but other stakeholders and communities they say if you're going to set up a company in our backyard we want you to help with infrastructure want you to build schools we want you to invest in health care and it is in the red jacket you've mentioned this quite a few times you know debates and dialogues in africa at the moment when they talk

about political and business politics as you so succinctly put it different people are taking part rich the powerful why upperclassman are part of the conversation so what do you suggest needs to happen for africans to take back control of the dialogue the conversation and decide what happens in our countries well one of the most interesting questions i received when i was marketing did aid was if i if i were given a billion dollars what would i do with it and my answer was i would invest it all in a p.r. organization because as far as i'm concerned the aid movement has been tremendously successful for sixty years in convincing africans that they're not worth being part is today having a seat around the table they're not that smart they're not that good and they're always going to be a drag on the global economy the narrative of africa is as been in my lifetime one of corruption disease war and poverty over the past ten years there's been a significant shift with the arrival of china in many. other countries but the and those countries do have their issues but the notion that anyone would think that there's been a positive narrative around what the stories are all africa is just for hardy let's

go back to just last moment here in the work of the policy for we do believe it can contribute to addressing challenges like inequality and redistribution. in the almost ten years since your book in regions like africa we've seen a turbo tax revenues of quadrupled deaths from diseases like malaria hiv ha. and we've also seen poverty rates come down and aid has made a contribution and we have seen democracy move forward in fits and starts so the idea that you know you continue to hold those using you would actually. be even stronger is hard to understand can you explain yeah sure i'm so two things first of all i don't know what entirely know what they are some aid budget comes from but many agencies that are all oprah liberated across africa are heavily reliant on their government and western governments the corrosive nature of aid is around this question of democracy on the african continent we do want to be able to hold our government accountable we can do that if actually oxfam is going to solve the

health care problem somebody else is going to solve education how are we able to hold our government accountable from a public policy stance if they are not the ones who are delivering these outcomes we do need to move away and i was very clear that i didn't say we need to go to zero i think there are some initiatives and there are some good things that i am i am i myself am involved in some aid initiatives that i think a very good a very targeted but even the aid programs to europe after the war after world war two in the form of marshall plan were short sharp and targeted they were not open ended concessions that have been very corrosive to africa not just because of corruption because of inflation the debt burden that they've left on the continent and i will just say one last thing you get a whole list of positive things that have happened in the content of the last decade you're absolutely right they've been succinct significant wins in the notion that those are because of aid i think is wrong i mean can we as i say we've had china come in has been significant investment from china were able to trade with the chinese for better or for worse and i think that that is just one. example many other governments are now going to the capital markets to raise capital so i think aid is producing some help but it's absolutely not the case that it is because of

the regime which has been around for sixty years going to the general about and the lady has been waiting you talk about the very long term view economic policy needs to take in the country in the short termism that democracy brings but we'll look at the example of rwanda what he's doing he's basically limiting civil rights for the benefit of growth in an african context do you feel that critical mass can be amassed within the middle middle class to allow for distributive power within the economy so that. rights and progress of the morsi can take root without having it hijacked by dictatorships and things like that to get where you're coming from you someone it's a good thing what is doing on the growth front regardless of the political or vice versa i believe the what program is doing is interesting. you should be saying this is. what you think about rwanda and the government what's happened well

i'm not rwanda i don't live in rwanda so it would be kind of arrogant of me to sit here and start pointing fingers at that economy what i will say is that that country came from a genocide that the world turned their backs we flew paper out within ninety days ten percent of the population was massacred and we didn't really we did nothing the international community did nothing and so you know i am sympathetic to the fact that there they had a very big difficult challenge everything was raised to the ground i think that they are showing improvements in many of the metrics that economists care about things they doing business participation are there sixty one percent of women in parliament more than anywhere else in the world there are things that i can pick up and say that that is something for us to look at emulated in the black checkers and you come to one of the things you do suggest quite often is actually to make man a tree. brazil it is banditry and in fact more than twenty percent of the population does not go and vote and resents the fact that there is this policy and

you could not argue that brazil certainly in the last few years has been a disengaged society in any shape or form don't you think that not voting is not only a reflection of how society feels about elites and the representatives but also ultimately part and parcel of the right to vote is the right not to vote well i actually believe in the civic right people died for the right to vote and so i really i would talk about mental border but i think it's something we should explore i think it really is interesting. you know as you know there are twenty seven countries around the world that have mandatory voting from australia belgium greece many countries in south america do i think that that people the only reason people don't vote is because they're trying to send a message to the political class and they need no i think there are a lot of economic arguments a lot of people in the united states as you know the presidential election every four years is on a tuesday and there are a lot of people who are minimum wage would like to vote who are not able to go to

vote because it takes too long and there's a process where we were able to i want to go to a woman of the book. i was wondering about the importance of voters being informed and well as misinformed what do you think is the balance of responsibilities between voters informing themselves and educating themselves and the government preventing misinformation and campaign finance reform that will get more accurate information out to the voters what is the balance of responsibilities or are they equal i think that's a great question particular in a world where we have fake news we have social media is a different conduit and so one of the things that i've been looking at and i've written about is whether or not we we need some kind of glass steagall regulation to sort of this is really refers to the banking sector where we separate retail consumer banking from investment banking do we need that kind of regulation in the media so in other words some clear delineation between fact versus fiction and i think that's something that's on the agenda right now and i would be very supportive of that i'm traditionally beeb. see walter cronkite's of the united states i didn't matter what race or gender or where part of the political spectrum

you were on everybody got the with this one fount of knowledge basically one point of knowledge that is a very different now we're all sort of quite siloed we get our information for where we are places where we want to sort of reinforce our views and so i do think if government and public policy actually wants to survive we don't have much more diversity of thought and. find it challenging on one hand it talks about kind of a and that being a bad coach or being making it difficult to create change and then on the other hand talk about trade and then you have kind of the market you know supporting people and helping to develop economies i just wonder are we talking one kind of challenging institution for another so i did it i offered five proposals for alternatives for aid and i again just to be absolutely clear that no when did it do i think we want to go to zero eight even in developed countries there are areas of society that are based on charitable outcomes welfare of the couple welfare systems of the government etc so we don't have to go to zero eight but we do need to think

about things like foreign direct investment issues around tapping the capital markets this is just the suite of things that other countries that are very successful at the developed and developing use and so trade you're right it's under a lot of challenge and threat right now with the rise of protectionism emanating from the leading economies but i do think that we it's not just about one solution it's about a whole host of portfolio of initiatives and i offered them in the book as well you're saying you didn't go to zero yes it was just because you knew for a mystery there was a lot of controversy around that bullet came out the book you said what if one by one african countries each received a phone call telling them exactly five years tops would be shut off permanently yes but i didn't say that that's what they should do i said what if what if it is a question it is not a statement. of final question robert kennedy famously said in one hundred sixty g.d.p. this measuring of economic growth. quote does not include the beauty of our poetry of the strength of our marriages it measures neither our wisdom or a learning other our compassion nor our devotion to our country it measures

everything in short except that which makes life worthwhile to do them well yes and to some degree because simon couldn't that's when he came up with the g.d.p. statistics and he had a brilliant thing he said the truth of the matter is that there are four categories of countries there underdeveloped developed japan and argentina nobody knows why japan grows and why argentina doesn't and i think that really is emblematic of the field of economics we are learning we're evolving we're innovating and a lot of what has been said here are is food for thought as things that people are trying to reinjure improve on and i would not suggest that we should throw out all the knowledge and all the impact that was mentioned earlier all the benefits and the significant improvements that the world has seen i mean today seventy one years old is the global average for life expectancy with these are significant benefits that have occurred over the last half century and i think we do need to actually recognize that they have been benefits from the system and we do need to tweak and focus on improving the ones where they've been weaknesses to be the more we'll have

to leave it there thanks to our audience here in york city union thanks to our panel of amazing experts and thanks to dan because i'm all for joining us and had thank you very much thousand. feet. a firebrand. and one of the talking about passing people for women's liberation. frame victory for anybody sexual assault continued for an iconic feminist and seminal writer i'm waiting for solution yes we need to do something while to waste on dear boy i'm not going to massage man he has sand goes head to head with jim. i can't do anything else on the al-jazeera.

how the persistent rain in the east coast us has already caused problems of potential and the actuality of flooding particularly in virginia but to see the tail end of that cloud their fall is pretty pleasing and that's more consistent with what you might expect or in the summer the showers might be showing up in the plains and they build ing they lost overnight heading towards the midwest exist in the middle a counter as well but time dawn breaks so you for should find that maybe south carolina and back into georgia there's a potential for rain but otherwise it's back in the sunshine warm summer sunshine in the low thirty's and that's there for a couple of days to the west a big shower or two but three of us come down to oklahoma texas the coast is looking pretty dry same is true now resigned to the potential for

a charity but not a great potential really where you might want rain or wind change in california oregon the real help i'm afraid but we have got some big showers for the south right cuba has been spaniel in the smaller islands in the caribbean they've been frequent showers recently mexico seeing them gang up once again and that's true also in guatemala el salvador honduras as well but i suspect it will be cuba and jamaica and maybe haiti and dominican republic where it will be wettest. is it you abducted and forced into sexual slavery by the japanese imperial army. for the so-called comfort women of the second world war decades have passed but the trauma lives on. whitney's on is the story of the women who campaigned with unwavering resolve for an official apology for this appalling chapter in history.

the apology on al-jazeera. this is al-jazeera. alone robertson and this is the news our live from doha coming up in the next sixty minutes venezuelan president nicolas maduro says he knows who's behind an attempt on his life but a rebel group is claiming responsibility. it's a joy state of the not to kill shot we ask the government and the other name but then both the knesset good delete this will lead.