hello i'm david pollan and london and these are the top stories an al-jazeera and india more than three hundred people have died in flooding in the southern state of carola thousands more have been left stranded with troops and local fisherman staging desperate rescue attempts for an id smith has our report. hundreds of soldiers have been sent to caroline to lead the rescue effort. thousands of people are stranded across the southern indian state at least two hundred twenty thousand people have sought refuge in relief camps. hundreds of homes have been swallowed by floodwater. north and central carola have been worst hit by the floods but the entire state is on red alert as heavy rain is predicted

for several days if you have a fresh spell of floods inundating you are going to vast areas. we have deployed our forces over there it is seven districts. the government says ten thousand kilometers of perilous roads have been destroyed. the international airport is flooded and have been temporarily closed. monsoon rains are a fact of life in india but these are the heaviest since one hundred twenty four millions of dollars worth of crops have been washed away. indian prime minister narendra modi says he's praying for the safety and well being of the people of canada bernard smith al jazeera. israeli police in jerusalem have closed the gates of the ocs mosque compound after a knife attack the police say an israeli palestinian man tried to stab an officer in the old city before being shot dead now the closure means muslim worshippers will be unable to pray at the mosque

a previous closure last year resulted in huge protests meanwhile at least two palestinian protesters have been killed and two hundred seventy have been wounded during demonstrations in the gaza israel border fence the gaza health ministry says hospitals are preparing to take in more injured people palestinians have been staging protests every friday since march calling for the right to return to lance in israel that their families were forced to leave. now turkey's battered currency the lira has weakened on friday after turkish court rejected an american pastor's appeal for release the case of add to brunch that has become a flashpoint of tension between washington and i'm kyra with the u.s. imposing sanctions and threatening more antilles freed the evangelical christian missionary has lived in turkey for two decades but the government there accuses him of espionage and links to the failed coup of two thousand and sixteen. well he's

been a problem for a long time they have not acted as a friend we'll see what happens they have a wonderful christian pastor a wonderful brunson. made up this phony charge that he is by and he's not if. he's going through a trial write down your goal to dry out they should have given him back alone time ago. turkey has in my opinion acted very very badly so we haven't seen the last that we are not going to take it sitting down they can take our people so you will see what happens. syria is also featuring on the agenda the meeting between the russian and turkish defense ministers in moscow one of the key issues for discussion is the plight of millions of civilians displaced from their home since the war began in two thousand and eleven now this includes the latest group of people who are fleeing it live that's one of the last opposition

strongholds ahead of a planned offensive by government forces. imran khan has promised a new era of prosperity and justice for pakistan after being elected the new prime minister by lawmakers is terry and south party or also become has become the largest national assembly but he still needs to set up a coalition government and afghanistan's president has visited the embattled city of gaza knee a week off the taliban launched a surprise attack which killed over two hundred fifty people well those are the stories on al-jazeera we'll have more details later but stay with us now for a head to head.

some are fleeing war poverty and persecution others simply hoping for a better future. many risk their lives to reach the developed world but does diversity make the west richer we are and always will be a nation of immigrants doesn't threaten to break it apart. my guest tonight believes more immigration means less social cohesion and wants tighter controls to paul first appeal later but is restricting immigration necessary or is it xenophobia. in discussions unmanned house and i've come here to the oxford union to go head to head with professor suppose the renowned economist un advisor and bestselling author i'll be challenging him on whether immigration is a danger to western identity and whether closing the door helps or hurts poor countries. also be joined by t.v. banjoko a british nigerian doctor and the managing director of the for. david goodhart

journalist author and an advocate of much tighter controls on immigration and philip economist adviser and a supporter of open borders. ladies and gentlemen professor paul collier. an economist at the university his latest book is a migration is changing. paul collier we're both you and i were both the products of migration you're the grandson i believe of a german migrant i'm the son of indian immigrants to the u.k. in your book exodus you say that while immigration into developed countries from developing countries has had economic benefits in many ways it's been very good you

also say that more and more immigration into the west poses a danger to social cohesion risks diluting our culture our national identity and may undermine trust corporation solidarity between members of the public those a pretty big claim some would say pretty controversial claims you know the debate on migration is polarized into two strident positions heartless and headless. do you sound to be volunteering to be the head of this i'm certainly not going to volunteer to be the heartless so we can find out tonight yeah of course migration is good it's like but it's like asking is is eating food good. if you don't eat food you're dead or you can eat too much just to take your analogy you don't stop eating food today on the basis that one day you might eat too much and nor do you stop migration

today on the basis that one day you could have too much i'm not advocating stopping migration because you're tighter control more and more restrictions the reason for birth is that immigration is driven by two things income gaps and the size of the us as the us rebuilds up migration tends to accelerate so at some point. as it accelerates it would become too much. sorry but we do the same thing with climate change in case you haven't notice it's interesting you mention climate change because some of the reviews of your book pointed out that it wasn't really ideal to compare migrants to c o two emissions in the sense well in the sense that if you start from the premise that c o two emissions are bad and we should control them it's almost implicit you're saying you're a man in the middle you know one of two extremes first of all it was general tone is very skeptical and quite negative first of all c o two emissions are not bad until climate until they become an in the range of

a problem c o two emissions we've had over the last two thousand years haven't been that the migration we've had to date hasn't been bad and it hasn't been bad but in the book you suggest it has been bad for social cohesion in some parts and that it will only get worse if you look at the relationship. between diversity. other economic performance well being. then it's. a hump ship if you get too much diversity they're more what the roads is corporation first and that shows up in much lower levels of trust in fact is reams of evidence here in the u.k. for example out in europe which suggests that actually the reason that societies are divided or lack of trust or lack cohesion has more to do with deprivation and poverty and inequality and not to do with greater immigration not to do with ethnic diversity let me just read you one quote european study said in two thousand and

eight found no evidence at all for what we consider to be this claim between diversity greater diversity and lower trust they say that the research you cited in your book which is american research is totally spurious when it comes to europe so there is a controversy or suggesting there is a first of there is first of all you're. focusing on what is the case now in europe as opposed to what should be focused. what would happen if there was a big increase in diversity that's just but that's where in the realms of my speculation versus your speculation you talk about heartless and headless and you being this kind of middle of the road pragmatist some of the language you use many would say is not helpful it's a little bit divisive might play into the hands of people you and i both don't like on the far right you refer peaceably refer in the book almost every other page to indigenous britons or indigenous members of the population which is you know has certain resonance to some people on the far right how do you define an indigenous brits and what is an indigenous person. we've got to have some sort of concept for

the norm immigrant population what i mean remarkable use i did was say indigenous to that what does it mean can you define for those insurgents if we've got a concept of immigrant we've got to have a concept of nonimmigrant have a code so what is the concept of anonymous and. what's the concept of an immigrant . my indigenous brits are we born here yes then you britain here because there are people who are born here indigenous we're ok so here's my question in your book you say that in the twenty eleven census it was revealed that the indigenous british had become a minority in their own capital the census showed that sixty three percent of the population of london was born in britain the only way you can get a minority status is if you're white british then you're a minority in london but. it's a phrase you've used in many interviews many articles in the daily mail a new statesman you think you can look to the second generation me this is not

a simple question is that wrong is wrong isn't it in your book you say that the indigenous british are a minority in their own capital they're not sixty three percent if you want to score a point then i'm not scoring a point i'm asking a professor of economics did he get a quite glaring error in his book no i didn't beat it and didn't repeat it in the news no i did repeat it in the mail i did not get a glaring. perfectly meaningful statement but the use of the unit meaning the use of the word indigenous right. there or there are various definitions you can have i asked you for your minutes here and you some of them gave you one so that doesn't apply to this one no he certainly doesn't certainly doesn't apply to so what does that apply to in this context it applies to the the second generation the second generation are not indigenous now according to the sentence then the absolutely yeah so am i am i not indigenous the of course you are

right. but you know just sort of oh you look at you're against me no seriously look it's a serious question all right so if. there's a process of absorption of immigrants into the society so that some people wouldn't really be culturally integrated after several generations some people will be culturally integrated within a decade. or so what the census shows is an approximation so where would you where would i and where would my daughter second and third generation where would we fit in by the sound of things where you fit absolutely. as those british don't you are indeed when you consider yourself as i do consider most of the british but i read a book which told you that you are according to the definition. not a new move the definition of be twice the second is just one last thing before i go to a planet would be waiting very patiently to come in in your book you talk about migrants

from developing countries tending to bring their own quote dysfunctional cultures with them to developed countries and in support of this you wrote quote unsurprisingly nigerian immigrants to other societies tend to be untrusting and opportunistic how is that not a sweeping statement some might say racist why the prices seem working in nigeria for many many years right now argyria is one of the lowest trust societies in the world that's a different point though isn't it it's one thing to say society is a local society another thing to say that nigerian immigrants to other societies are your group of people tend to be untrusting and opportunistic that's pretty offensive if you nigerian surely i'm sorry if it causes offense the what i'm trying to suggest is that people tend. to bring their culture with them we've made our make a very important distinction between culture and race anybody from any race can

rock any culture ok let's go to our panel dr t.t. lola banjoko you're a british nigerian doctor advisor to the e.u. and the u.n. on migration issues you also the founder of africa recruit what do you make of that can i first say that i don't take offense to what you said because i know i'm not one of those who had to find it and i think you've taken the narrow end and you've used that sterile stereotype which is wrong to define a whole community if you say you've lived in nigeria you would know that there is a sense of trust of communities where people get together around be going to it's across the african continent where we don't even have agreements and we bring money we share money with each other so what's the level is that not trust. to me that is trust here we define it as crowd funding but actually it's been going on in africa for centuries so there is a very high level of trust it's the level of trust of government which you're confusing with the level of trust of society now in terms of bringing habits to the

country which i call my country here. actually there are some you said in your books a number of good things that we've brought one a caring attitude. which is why there's no surprise that many migrants work in the care sector respect for elders i respect you see i said i don't take offense i respect you do you think that's a valuable thing that we should all be sharing and learning i mean i've read your book and i thought i defined it as a very good pub you know we were in a pub you'll have a pub quiz it's a story book there's no evidence you contradicted yourself so many times you've said let's come back and they're going to come back on the trust point and didn't point. first of all my own doctors in nigeria movements so. i am able to distinguish

between one another so there are. local community level support systems which are high trust. but to say it's hard to africa's high trust know that the really high trust society in the world is japan ok let's go let's go to another member of our panel david good heart he's here he's the author of the book the british dream and you in your book david unlike paul you don't talk so much about indigenous you used the phrase if i remember correctly when i read it white british you get how people sometimes are quite suspicious when they hear those labels you know but i do think it's one of the best things about the debate in the last few years is that we have been able to distinguish issues of race and racial justice from its use of the economic and yes in the cultural impact of very large scale immigration you do you have very serious issues of integration and segregation almost hauffe the ethnic minority population now living wards where less than half

of the population are white british that seems to me a kind of concentration in a sort of separating out that it's very unhealthy for for a good civic society where people do feel a mutual god and they want to share with others. to get into a statistical argument because over the all the stuff is always contest contested by people on all sides is it about the racial composition of the population or is it about as paul asked me you know feeling british feeling english feeling european because again they seem to be mixed messages i think i think these things become sort of symbolic in a way no i don't think it is about white race but i think it is the scale and speed of change let me bring in a grown who is also an economist all through the book immigrants your country needs them. the original question asked to pull if you see what philips could be coming from in the perspective. paul made the comment at the start that we talked about you know they're all social and cultural cost immigration not everything is good not things but it depends how much given his belief that immigration is going to

rapidly increase in coming years the whole multiplier effect asper effect is that a good enough reason therefore in your view even as a supporter mugs that actually we do need to do something about it before it gets out of control and damaging and put some controls and first of all there is no evidence diversity actually reduces trust or social cohesion the evidence from. united states where they say they have a history of slavery and therefore polarized relations between whites and blacks studies in europe don't find that at all second of all it's accelerator model is not a recognized model of migration in fact it's contracted by the evidence the idea that it without controls that everyone moves and countries become depopulated is contradicted by the evidence is in africa where there is next to nigeria nigeria six times richer and share is not depopulated basically there are political controls between them is contradicted within europe where sweden is six times richer than romania remain is not depopulated it's contradicted within united states where mainland united states is three times richer than puerto rico and

puerto rico is not populated so this is just spurious fear mongering this is not evidence based at all and you are using your position as an economist and claiming . evidence exists but actually it doesn't ok let's come back. to that sort of argument. really doesn't cut the mustard the. single authority is the docking. paper a couple of years ago called the aspers finds that the single most powerful driver of immigration migration is the size of the us but can you find any example of your accelerator i can't actually there are i do so in the book you don't. get it don't you don't actually i don't you just assert you draw like if you claim expertise

when you don't have it you're more gratian actually very dependent don't actually quote studies backing up your arguments i'm sorry if you want if you want things them pools of celebration the example given the book is tokyo cyprus. where there are more turkish sleep cypriots living in britain now than there are in turkey cyprus will come later i hope to water the effects on all of the countries of origin thank you for doing the segue into the next discussion that's exactly what i want to ask you about you say that it might not just harm developed countries in the future in terms of cultural solidarity but that it actually could pose a real danger to the development prospects of the countries quote left behind you talk about kind of the harm and damage that could be done what harm and damage you for and to specifically emigrants or migrants. they tend to be that the young enterprising the skilled the educated. and people like

that are if you like with fairy godmothers in any society they're useful to others . and so country like say haiti where about eighty five percent of the young educated leave that's debilitating many would say haiti is an aberration given its history of natural disasters and being next door to the united states but i take your point if we would see if we would all agree with your thesis on this particular point about the poorest countries why should i not try and leave haiti and try and get a better job rather than stay in a country ruled by dictators dominated by corruption blighted by natural disasters purely by the bad luck of my birth people turn have the right to live anywhere in the world without the right to leave their country and it's a human right of course you would admit as you do in the book just for context i think it's four hundred billion dollars in remittances from skilled migrants to those poor countries if those people because they're productive skilled energetic

if they'd stayed in their country they would also have produced no more class there's no evidence for that that's one of the last what they were what the critics say about your book is no evidence that if you keep a skilled bunch of people in a hellhole that hellhole will become heaven look there's very evidence for that no one. that is abusive language. that you describe as hell hole. societies which absolutely have to catch up with the rest of the your employer leaving stop over keep in mind there is no evidence for the most in challenge for the twenty first century is that the poorest societies catch up with the rest really just a philosophical level one do your view would it be a good thing a morally commendable thing for those poorer countries to put in immigration controls to stop those skilled energetic young people from leaving in the first

place north korea or cuba no problem you know obviously obviously not. because there is no moral right to restrict exit that is turning a country into a prison how is it morally different to say you can't stop people from leaving so what we'll do is we'll do that for you by stopping them from coming what i'm advocating is people should get skills get education go back get someone to come here to work and settle you do you want less i don't want less i want to. prevent an acceleration certainly let's go back to our panel this movement of peoples especially from the developing world to develop world can be if the brain drain exceeds the brain very damaging what's your response to that is not just the developing countries even this country is losing skills to australia canada so it's it's all about people searching for platoon it is and people will continue to

search a lot of people actually are going back to the continent of africa and i'm sure you know that this is not about that so there is a lot of speculation going on what the what we can do is restrict the flow of money from the very rich who take money from these countries and bring it to the west i'm in battle with you to try and. break the banking secrecy which permits you've been a journalist for many years been around the political scene surely you and i both know that when governments are making these decisions about restricting immigration and keeping foreigners out it's not very much to do with caring about the developing countries and their futures. it is only reacting to public opinion although actually i think let's not you know take people take the brightest in the best from all those countries and the the area where this is most of those that we haven't spoken about is the area of health care i think that something like one third of all the nurses working in london have come relatively recently from other

countries many of them very poor countries that cannot afford to lose their trained health care workers and what's your response to david and paul there's a contradiction at the heart again for collier's book i mean in the beginning he is explained his theory of under-development which is that poor countries are poor use of what he calls dysfunctional social models now if that's true why would preventing skilled people change anything it's a dysfunctional social part of the makes them pour so keeping the skilled people there they're still going to be poor i mean and look at north korea. it prevents emigration has that somehow made it rich your argument simply don't stand up they're absolutely incoherent and ridiculous as this is the. point last point at the end if you don't say having said how terrible it is that they're skilled immigration from poor countries you then say that actually rich countries should select migrants on the basis of skills and employability you left sheffield to go work in washington at the world bank for your self improvement ditch if since

you're so brilliant sheffield presumably lost out as a result should you have been prevented from moving i don't think so should you have stated your field full of your being. i chose my self interest there was a tension as there is with a lot of migrants between do i look after myself or do i care about the people left behind while some of them are doing both by sending about income to sell those countries. this is. the average migrant from a poor country sends back a thousand dollars a year. that's not a great song if if they're bright energetic and skilled and they stayed in their country they'd probably generate more than a thousand total assumption probably in the evidence is not there is no evidence and understanding but there's always going to be done sort of the really is no no no you're counting formal remittances can i just corrected. a lot of informal

images which you have no idea about. take a break we're going to come back to to talk about one other area of the migration debate because a lot of heat asylum and immigration and proposals for what to do with refugees will also be hearing from our audience here in the oxford union join us for part two of head to head off to the break. they set sail for gold. but discover their resorts worth more than its won't even be. driven by commerce enabled through politics and religion executed with brutality. in episode one slavery roots charge the birth and the rise of the african slave trade nothing in history that is going to humanity. for all the gold in the world i want to just go. in

a world where journalism as an industry is changing we. continue to expand to continue to have that passenger drive and present the story in a way that is important to our viewers. everyone has a story worth hearing to. cover that are often ignored we don't weigh our coverage towards one particular region or continent that's why i joined al-jazeera. southbound on the economic heartbeat of a thriving brazil but boom times mean rising rents and the lack of public housing isabella is just one of thousands looking for a place to cool. was no choice but to occupy one of the city's many vacant buildings facing an uncertain future. do you find a latin american occupying brazil on al-jazeera.

hello i'm devika paul and then london with all the top stories on our ages there are more than three hundred people have died in flooding in the southern indian state of carola thousands more have been left stranded the troops and local fishermen staging desperate rescue attempts power communications are also down and their war alerts of war to wrench away to calm israeli police in jerusalem have closed the gates of the al aqsa mosque compound after a knife attack the police say an israeli palestinian man tried to stab an officer in the old city before being shot dead turkey's battered currency the lira as weakened on friday after turkish court rejected an american pastor's appeal for a release of the case of andrew bronson has become a flashpoint of tension between washington and ankara where the u.s.

imposing sanctions and threatening more until he is freed. well he's been a problem for a long time they have not acted as the brand will be what happened they have a wonderful christian pastor a wonderful brunson. made up this phony charge that he is by and he's not is. he's going through a drought right down your goal that it they should have given him back a long time ago. turkey has in my opinion acted very very badly so we haven't seen the last of that we are not going to take it sitting down they can take our people so you will see what happens. russia and turkish defense ministers are meeting in moscow to discuss the plight of syrian refugees millions have been forced from their homes in the since the war began in two thousand and

eleven many are now fleeing it live and that's one of the last opposition strongholds ahead of an expected offensive by government forces are taking refuge in towns near the turkish border. imran khan has promised a new era of prosperity and justice for pakistan after being elected the new prime minister by lawmakers his terry and soft party which campaigned on an anti corruption platform has become the largest in the national assembly but ill still need to set up a coalition government well those are the headlines on al-jazeera will have a full hour of news at the top of the hour but stay with us now for head to head that continues. thank you. welcome back to head to head on al-jazeera we are talking about immigration with

professor paul collier of oxford university in part one we talked about immigration from south to north we talked about integration we talked about the effect on the so-called left behind countries i just want to ask you this one group of migrants even the most hardline critics and opponents of immigration tend to put to one side and treat more generously all refugees and asylum seekers most people think we have a moral and a legal obligation to open our borders to people fleeing conflicts and persecution and you say the same in your book exodus but then you add this rather some might say you say when peace is restored you say people should be quote required to return just to clarify would you forcibly. to their countries of origin against their will maybe no matter how long they've been settled in a new country of course not the cool thing we should be focused on with conflict is a conflict. of conflict. and the post conflict

countries are the most vulnerable societies in the world. very often they revert to conflict and so again a vital task is to try and make that conflict recovery. as successful as possible i work with a lot of conflicts societies and governments and this standard problem that governments face post conflict is that all the skilled people are left and so i do think it's responsible to have policies which encourage people to go back when you should required to return so that that would be an overstayer right but when you're a state yeah ok it's my overstatement of it is it's really to try and focus on the issue that it's of course it's very important to protect

the skilled and educated by taking them out of the society whilst the conflict is happening but it's just to clarify while the conflicts happening if it's going on for years as many conflicts do should they have the right to settle here and work here that the presumption should be. that people should be. provided with a safe refuge with that with some sort of presumption of return and of course most refugees. don't come to rich societies. the other refugee camps and so they're the real challenge agree more important you say that you say that those conflicts don't last that long according to the u.n.h.c.r. the average refugee now spend seventeen years as a refugee rather than nine years a decade previously some of these conflicts in places like iraq afghanistan the democratic republic of congo even in pakistan violence doesn't seem to be abating at all i mean how do you say to people now's a time safe when you decide it's safe we must encourage want to go back quite often

. there are there are a peace settlements which to mark. an end to conflict a time where without a peace settlement people can stay but if there's a clear settlement only sure if there are so iraqis today if you take a real world example iraqis living in the west would you don't want them to be required to return to encourage to return of course not of course it's still in conflict very obviously while they're here with their families they shouldn't integrate they should where possible retain their links with iraq so that when the conflict is over which it will be. then they can go back and help rebuild their country if you've been in the country ten years twelve years fifteen years twenty years you've had kids they've gone to school they've never seen that country that you moved from they don't speak the language absolutely required to return no no of course not but there's a desperate situation or

a small group of people trying to restore a country desperately short of skilled people who know the society and the key resource to draw on is the skilled the aspirant even in afghanistan one of my students last year. gone by is trying to rebuild the society is brave you have lee he was a hero because he volunteered to go and do that he didn't do that as the british government pressuring no get out but we have a duty of rescue in a context in which there's a larger duty to try and help rebuild these societies from being smashed up conflict is not agreement and the same would say divorce those two debates the refugee debates too important to be tacked on to the development debate the problem is poor refugee debate is not what happens here it's what happens in the refugee camp well it's interesting you raise that issue because of course

a lot of people here talk about the issues of refugee in asylum and you raise the issue in your book actually the west as a whole doesn't take enough refugees to begin with i think britain takes less than one percent of the world's refugee population and developing countries take something like eighty six percent of the world's refugees up from seventy percent a decade ago the refugees overwhelmingly are going to continue to be in countries that border areas of the conflict so the fate of refugees. does not really depend on whether a few thousand more harm to the rich society is what matters is what happens to the millions agree and so agree it doesn't change our fundamental responsibility is to make the those refugee camps far better place we call it economically opposite mutually exclusive we could it's a referral there's no different very polish peripheral because last year the british government took ninety syrians not ninety thousand ninety syrians and it is

a shame and fully understand how many hundreds of thousands or millions of syrians actually need refuge yes i'd like us to give more money to refugee camps and also take in more refugees would you find ok there's goodwill and there's real balance a priority is the camps agreed let's go to our let's go to our panel. paul talks about refugees should be keeping links with the countries they fled from in order to be ready to go back and help rebuild surprise up i mean i know that they already do that and many of them i know of a lot of afghans healthcare professionals working in this country who go home regularly a medical mission trips to south sudan to somalia so in terms of you've not counted your previous argument where you were saying these people shouldn't be these middle class people you described actually doing more to take months to take materials

they sacrifice a lot sacrificial given there's a difference between just throwing money out and sacrificing your life to do this like you did that knowledge that in the book let me let me bring in david david you'll remember in this country we talked about the u.k. context a lot of the stuff about immigration you talk about how the debate has changed what's your position today on the on the refugee asylum part of this debate i think most people in this country still believe in the idea of providing asylum i mean one of the problems here is though that the definition of. qualifies for asylum has expanded and expanded and expanded so there are now on some calculations perhaps one billion people out there in the world who could technically qualified to come here as an asylum seeker which i think is that is a problem. but then if you are thinking about places that are experiencing civil war natural disasters of one kind or another we should pay a decent temporary. villages cities for people like that and they can then keep an eye on what is happening in their country they'll be closer to what's

going on and they will know when it is safe to return to your point if they do reach it and many do reach is through genuine persecution and are ended up settling here for several years do you believe they should have the right to settle here have children if they are genuine asylum seekers who whose lives are in danger in some way in the country they come down saying the danger is gone were several years down the line but they've been here they're working they've got no i don't think it is actually to leave here the presumption should be that they should go back. briefly philip to run. again for the argument i mean he he says only it you agree only a tiny proportion of refugees go to the west so it's only a tiny proportion why is it so essential for their country's future at that time proportion to go back to leap. who are the refugees who get to the west they're the more educated.

more able the people best able to get out. the people with the biggest incentive to get out of the most educated well that's perfect group that's sensible weak with the spirit of rational self-interest of the people who are living off a little social category only sense of highly skilled it's it's it's the poor it's the middle class it's the even the rich it's all sorts of people just this this place from sarah that's just not true for the people who have education a much more likely to come as far as the west than the people without ok let's leave it there we're going to bring in our audience to ask them questions trying to keep your points short as possible is go here to the front row later here in the front row and the more go to the back isn't it arguable that. in those countries where we have either started the conflict or we have prolonged the conflict that we have a greater moral responsibility to take in more refugees rather than giving the burden

to the neighbors i was there just want to say that under the one hundred fifty one united nations refugee convention we have a legal obligation to take in genuine refugees and the convention does not put a time limit on how long these refugees can stay ok. yes webb where we where we cause conflicts we've obviously got more moral responsibility than where we didn't cause them but. we still got a moral responsibility even where we didn't cause them because basically we should be navigating by need here but the but the but to just to reiterate. migration to the west is a peripheral aspect of what to do when there's a conflict the really important thing is to help to rebuild the society after

conflict whilst treating the vast number of refugees well during the conflict while at the legal point she made that actually what you propose is illegal under international law to set a time limit on how long refugees can stay i'm an economist not a lawyer and i tend to think that. the lawyers look at things in a rather blinkered way that what we've done amiss look out what economists look at is try to look at is what's best for society ok let's go to the lady in the row and then the gentleman next to a migrant from malawi in africa there's been a lot of mention quite a lot about the damage that migrants from my part of the world to t.k. culture i want to know exactly what do you mean by that when you talk about trust to me the biggest piece is sas has a trust in a massive scale lately has been linked to the great recession which had nothing to do with people from my part of the world and

a lot of us become citizens as well our story becomes part of britain story you know isn't this more about living with difference and you're an easy is that. you know. i'm sorry if you got a sense that i'm saying immigrants from malawi or anywhere else are called problems in britain or anywhere else i'm not right. you are. you're misinterpreting. pretty fundamentally what i'm saying. so. we have more. good luck to the beginning discussion here and still know it's been good till now it's been good but in the future it's going to be bad. that's what i'm struggling i've been struggling with throughout or maybe you're not really struggling what i'm saying. what i say. is

that there is a good reason to think that migration left to itself with controls would accelerate the red herring who's leaving who's calling for migration without control by the prof a million a year we were going to have a population of eighteen million by twenty fifty i mean nobody has any direct you know. because of the future but it is about this scale it's about this scale of change now this audience is mainly you know highly educated mo boil liberal that they are comfortable you're comfortable with change most people in most societies are not they've not taken account of those perfectly normal human feelings and polish he also says in his book that microstrip be selected on the basis of cultural distance so actually he doesn't want people from malawi he wants more people who he considers similar to himself ok hold on what makes let's. say audience section pummels down. let's bring in some more gentlemen here next yes yes i wanted to say that there was this debate between. diversity and trust but you

know i think trust is maybe overrated i mean i come from ireland we had to indigenous populations katha the control the student the been there for hundreds of years they didn't trust each other and they fought against each other and kill each other and in fact it might have been good if we had people from china from somewhere maybe to actually go there and i also think that we don't need this trust we need the rule of law so you have the rule of law and i might not trust you you might not trust me you're a stranger i'm not from your village you're from another village you're from another religion but we exist within the rule of law tradition and we get along ok . clearly polarized. societies. are the worst nightmare and so as you wittily point out a bit of diversity the breaks polarized nation might be viewed improvement and

probably would have been on. the point about. law as a substitute for trust do we want a society that has mutual respect or do we want a society that moves beyond mutual respect to mutual regard and the mutual respect is what you would cheve through the law you have to respect each other like it or not as it were but. a good society actually moves beyond you to respect to mutual regard because it's that move that actually builds willingness to be generous to other people a gentleman here in the second which is a question for the professor do you think that as a sensible policy for migration you're talking about temporary migrants might be to allow in only the work themselves to keep their families outside of the countries

to not allow them to vote to only allow them to go back home maybe three weeks every two years to keep them an inferior conditions to give them worse health facilities and the reason i ask this is because it seems to work really well in qatar. saudi arabia and countries out there doesn't it's not here to speak about arab regimes he said speak about his book so i asked him could be very good i think if you will came here tonight and asked him a series of questions about how he thinks about how abysmally gulf kingdoms treat them are going to be a very odd one hour that me and paul collier spent talking about but to be fair to the questioner. i do discuss the gulf migration policies in the book well and what i say about them and what i say about them is that. for somebody like philip they're perfect they get all loads of economic gains so they tick all the economic boxes and they are and they are absolutely

disgusting and not something that a western society could translate i mean i don't. think it's a point why do we let more of them into the u.k. that's why i'd like to see would you like to see that as well because a lot of people would like to come and work here i'm sure but you and david were the first people to go home. you know this is not ok to go back to the audience which is a more course went back to theater let's take let's. take a stand we'll be waiting very patiently here in the jacket second row coming to the stand. my name is evil coca leaf. from the country because of a problem caused by the british. my arrival here i was detained for several months before the legal battle i won my case i was given they refused to jews. so my question to you according to your book is how do you plan to get refugees who've

been here for more than seventy years to return and rebuild their countries with your kid. will that involve forcefully move on first with deportation which will cause retirement ties in effect to these families no of course not right now. the. let me be clear about not i'm not advocating for st patrick's asian i don't know which country you're from the moon's out on camera. the. but the we could go around the circle again but no one i'm not sure of your britain is now your home and it should stay you are right. but there's clearly a need in the cameroon too. for some people to help. build that society survey catches up with britain so that future generations in the cameroon don't face this huge income gap and lack the civil rights. hold on.

we're running out of time gentlemen there in the third row yes it strikes me that a lot of this discussion has been about self interest verses interest for the community i myself am from malaysia but i've been raised in the us i have an american accent how would you engender this sense of community values what we need to do for that so that at least the people that aren't forced migrants are interested in going back many migrants reconcile that tension by actually doing a lot for their original societies. and their but that is a process that to be basically to be to be celebrated and encourage but i think it's very important that. we shouldn't just look at. interest there's a sort of libertarian cult which is quite common in in economics which basically reduces to people should be free to pursue their self interest and i think the real

limits to pull one last question for me before we finish there's a lot of ignorance obviously on the subject a lot of fear mongering from certain sections of the political spectrum opinion polls suggest that a lot of british people lot of french people or americans or the canadians. overestimate for example how many migrants are living in their societies as a lot of fear fear of change to quote david. what do you say to people who say that when we obsess about immigration in this way when we have this perspective. and when you write about the we all worry about the future accelerating rate and the harm that may come you'll simply playing into that histeria you're playing into that ignorance rather than kind of challenging it and controlling it first of all i really whatever i can be accused of. creating europe's histeria about migration are not guilty right nobody will be if you don't do that. what are the what is it

my wider point which i was trying to make about. yes theory around this debate what we've got is a polarized and strident debate in which the extremes shout a lot and the center stays silent. because center politicians should just. want the subject to go away and that is a dereliction of duty on the part of the politicians of the center we need to seize the debate to say it's not. migration is terrible migration is wonderful our gratian is a relatively minor process. for the rich countries that needs to be managed bearing taking into account the rather more important interests of the poor societies from which these people are coming and of course you would have if you

would knowledge i think the statistic out there that i came across that ninety seven percent of the world's population actually live in the country where they were bored and since the release that we're talking i think i read percent in the book right around that we're talking about a touch of a tiny element the reality for the future is not that we all turn into a global soup the reality for the future is people will live predominantly ninety seven percent in their own countries actually the big migration flows if we look at century since the big migration flows will have gone down not up. one thing in which phillips wrong which i was a nice point on which to end is that. is that going down the razor knife is always a migration is not an integral part of globalization globalization of trade of capital flows is actually almost hernot to moving people we shouldn't be

moving people to jobs we should build a world in which jobs move to people who will have to leave it there thank you very much will you much as you have the head of the oxford union thank you very much for our audience here in your spirit our wonderful panel of experts thank you very much for watching at home this debate is not going away good night. the.

a cost financial. investor sentiment in. a perfect storm of factors including. google is tracking your every move. i really felt liberated as a journalist was. getting to the truth as it. hello there we've got yet another weather front that's making its way across australia at the moment down in the southeast corner where we're seeing the cloud it's gradually edging its way towards the east is bringing us a fair amount of wet weather certainly some cool weather but ahead of that system we're going to see the winds pick up and that could cause a problem with wildfires certainly increase the risk of seeing them and seeing them

spread behind that system though as it moves away as we head into sunday it will be a good deal fresh air behind it so for melbourne a maximum would just be ten and force in adelaide just thirteen meanwhile towards the west it's all fine and dry for us in perth at the moment twenty one degrees our maximum on sunday but we do have some more wet weather edging its way towards us for monday and over towards new zealand it's been very stormy here recently some places have seen a lot of thunder and lightning and some very heavy downpours to that system is away from us now and things are calming down so for us on saturday and sunday it should be more or less dry and all temperature getting to around ten degrees in christchurch we do have more rain though that's working its way towards us for the beginning of the week it a bit further towards the north and we want lots of what weather here that's making its way across china that's the remains of an old tropical storm but it's still giving some very heavy downpours as it works across china. the for.

archtop. but this is. just to the bottom of the truck here it's dangerous to. try to drive. the lawyer. to. the make break you're going to. because of the you tube. if you go on the edges you. and then reported on the. u.s. and british companies have announced the biggest discovery of natural gas in west africa but what to do with these untapped natural resources is already a source of heated debate nothing much has changed they still spend most of their days looking forward to for the dry riverbed like this one five years on the syrians still feel battered or even those who managed to escape their country have been truly unable to escape the war.

this is al-jazeera. hello i'm david pollan it is good to have you here with us this is the news hour live from london coming up. hundreds killed and thousands more stranded in the southern states of careless hit by the worst flooding in nearly a century. turkey rejects another appeal to free the pastor of the heart of its route with the united states its currency goes into tailspin as more sanctions are threatened.