efforts to successfully deliver the people's house. on al-jazeera. you're watching al-jazeera arms the whole robin in doha these are all top news stories former u.n. secretary general kofi annan has died at the age of eighty he served as the seventh secretary general from one nine hundred ninety seven to two thousand and six and was the first to rise to the top of the united nations from within the ranks of the organization he received the nobel peace prize jointly with the united nations in two thousand and one stephan juric is the spokes person for the united nations secretary general and he worked with kofi annan in the past he says although none opposed the two thousand and three invasion of iraq he also made sure that the iraqi people could count on the u.n.

after that with the wall with them and he did. very. well the moment the way to heal. or get worked so hard for it are like you can work your heart to avoid war but i think what needs to be remembered is one. great one the war. made sure that the united nations out of the people of iraq. the state funeral is taking place for victims of the bridge that collapsed in genoa italy it brings the number of dead to more than forty with hundreds more injured the remains of a family a husband wife and their nine year old daughter have also been recovered from the rubble of that bridge that collapsed in italy on cheese day present surge worse among those attending it presided over by the archbishop of genoa but some families

blame the government for the disaster and they boycotted the ceremony. now thousands of stranded people are waiting to be rescued in the southern indian state of carola as heavy rain continues to batter the region more than one hundred ninety people have died in just over a week much of the state is partially submerged in what's been described as the worst flooding in a century ever morgan has the latest. homes nearly submerged in floodwaters. people forced to leave their properties behind in order to avoid the floods or landslides this has been the scene for over a week as the southern indian state of caroline battled heavy rains. the subsequent floods are being described as the worst in nearly one hundred years. water levels are rising since yesterday the rains have been heavy it's still ongoing people are worried. the floodwaters and mudslides have killed hundreds of people since the start of the monsoon season in june. some parts of the state have received nearly

double the average annual rainfall. more than three thousand people have been forced out of their homes. and that has not been easy as waters flood access points in many areas leaving air evacuation as the only option the language of. the rainfall has led to massive landslides where chunks of the mountain of come down blocking the entire stretch although the clearance team is working to open the road it's unlikely it will happen people have been shifted to camps in the nearby areas. whether forecasters say heavy rains will continue over the weekend but will ease afterwards but while that is good news for those affected in kerala the rains will likely be drifting to other states in the country people morgan al-jazeera former cricketer iran card has been officially sworn in as prime minister of pakistan it has taken car more than two decades to get the top job after retiring

from the sport and turning his attention to politics he was elected prime minister in a vote in the national assembly on friday his three can solve party won the most seats in the elections last month. can't are is accusing saudi arabia of blocking its citizens from performing the muslim hard pilgrimage that has already government says its nationals are unable to get permits to travel to mecca saudi arabia denies this saying an unspecified number of guitars have arrived for the pilgrimage the u.a.e. saudi arabia bahrain and egypt cut diplomatic ties with qatar more than a year ago they accused of supporting terrorism a claim they could tare government has strongly denied of course so you can follow all of the stories that we're covering here our web site at al-jazeera dot com because our top story that we're following the death of the time the death of kofi annan do stay with us here on out as ever.

some fleeing war poverty and persecution others a simply hoping for a better future. many risk their lives to reach the developed world but does diversity make the west richer we are and always will be a nation of immigrants doesn't threaten to break it apart. my guest tonight believes more immigration means less social cohesion and wants tighter controls to paul first appeal later but is restricting immigration necessary or is it xenophobia. in disguise i'm at the house and i've come here to the oxford union to go head to head with professor suppose the renowned economist un advisor and bestselling author i'll be challenging him on whether immigration is a danger to western identity and whether closing the door helps or hurts poor

countries. also be joined by banjoko a british nigerian doctor and the managing director of the for. david goodhart journalist author and an advocate of much tighter controls on immigration and philip economist folding advisor and a supporter of open borders. ladies and gentlemen professor paul collier. an economist at the university his latest book says oh my gracious changing. paul collier we're both you and i were both the products of migration you're the grandson i believe of a german migrant i'm the son of indian immigrants to the u.k.

in your book exodus you say that while immigration into developed countries from developing countries has had economic benefits in many ways it's been very good you also say that more and more immigration into the west poses a danger to social cohesion risks diluting our culture our national identity and may undermine trust corporation solidarity between members of the public those a pretty big claim some would say pretty controversial claims you know the debate on migration is polarized into two strident positions heartless and the headless. body you sound to be volunteering to be the head of this i'm certainly not going to volunteer to be the heartless so we can find out tonight yeah of course migration is good it's like but it's like asking is is eating food good. if you don't eat food you're dead

so you can eat too much just to take your analogy you don't stop eating food today on the basis that one day you might eat too much and nor do you stop migration today on the basis that one day you could have too much i'm not advocating stopping migration because you're tighter control more and more restrictions the reason for birth is that immigration is driven by two things income gaps and the size of the. group builds up migration tends to accelerate so at some point. as it accelerates it would become too much. sorry but we do the same thing with climate change and notice it's interesting you mention climate change because some of the reviews of your book pointed out that it wasn't really ideal to compare migrants to c o two emissions in the sense well in the sense that if you start from the premise that c o two emissions are bad and we should control them it's almost implicit you're saying you're

a man in the middle you know one of the extreme views first of all it was general tone is very skeptical and quite negative first of all c o two emissions are not bad until climate until they become an in the range of a problem c o two emissions we've had over the last two thousand years haven't been that the migration we've had to date hasn't been bad and it hasn't been bad but in the book you suggest it has been bad for social cohesion in some parts and that it will only get worse if you look at the relationship. between diversity. other economic performance well being. then it's. a hump ship if you get too much diversity they're more what the roads is corporation first and that shows up in much lower levels of trust in fact there's reams of evidence here in the u.k. for example out in europe which suggests that actually the reason that societies are divided or lack of trust or lack cohesion is more to do with deprivation and

poverty and inequality and not to do with greater immigration not to do with ethnic diversity let me just read you one quote european study said in two thousand and eight found no evidence at all for what we consider to be this claim between diversity greater diversity and lower trust they say that the research you cited in your book which is american research is totally spurious when it comes to europe so there is a controversy or suggesting there isn't enough first of there is first of all you're. focusing on what is the case now in europe as opposed to what should be focused. what would happen if there was a big increase in diversity that's just but that's where in the realms of my speculation versus your speculation you talk about heartless and headless and you being this kind of middle of the road pragmatist some of the language you use so many would say is not helpful it's a little bit divisive might play into the hands of people you and i both don't like on the far right you refer peaceably refer in the book almost every other page to

indigenous britons or indigenous members of the population which is you know has certain resonance to some people on the far right how do you define an indigenous brits and what is an indigenous person. we've got to have some sort of concept for the norm immigrant population what i mean remarkable use i did was say indigenous to that what does it mean can you define for those insurgents if we've got a concept of immigrant we've got to have a concept of not immigrant. so what is the concept of a nonimmigrant. what's the concept of an immigrant. my indigenous briton born here yes let me britain here because there are people who are born here indigenous we're ok so here's my question in your book you say that in the twenty eleven census it was revealed that the indigenous british had become a minority in their own capital the census showed that sixty three percent of the population of london was born in britain the only way you can get a minority status is if you're white british then you're

a minority in london but. it's a phrase you've used in many interviews many articles in the daily mail a new statesman. you can look to the second generation this is not ask a simple question is that wrong is wrong isn't it in your book you say that the indigenous british are a minority in their own capital they're not sixty three percent if you want to score a point then not scoring a point i'm asking a professor of economics did he get a quite glaring error in his book no i didn't read it and didn't repeat it in the news no i did repeat it in the mail i did not get a glaring. perfectly meaningful statement but the use of the human meaning the use of the word indigenous right. there or there are various definitions you can have i asked you for going to see a new set of people and gave you one so that doesn't apply to this one no he certainly doesn't certainly wasn't a part of it so what does that apply to in this context it applies to the the

second generation the second generation are not indigenous now according to the sentence then. yeah so am i am i not indigenous the of course you are right. but just to develop your logic you're against me no seriously look it's a serious question all right so if. there's a process of absorption of immigrants into the society so that some people wouldn't really be culturally integrated after several generations some people will be culturally integrated within a decade. or so what the census shows is an approximation so where would where would i and where would my daughter second and third generation where would we fit in by the sound of things where you fit absolutely. as those british don't you're indeed when you consider yourself as i do consider most of the british but i read a book which told you that you are according to the definition. not you can you move

the definition of me twice second it's just one last thing before i go to a planet would be waiting very patiently to come in in your book you talk about migrants from developing countries tending to bring their own quote dysfunctional cultures with them to developed countries and in support of this you wrote quote unsurprisingly nigerian immigrants to other societies tend to be untrusting and opportunistic how is that not a sweeping statement some might say racist why the prices seem working in nigeria for many many years right now argyria is one of the lowest trust societies in the world and that's a different point there isn't it it's one thing to say society is a local society another thing to say that nigerian immigrants to other societies are your group of people tend to be untrusting and opportunistic that's pretty offensive if you nigerian surely i'm sorry if it causes offense the what i'm trying to suggest is that people tend. to bring their culture with them

we've made our make a very important distinction between culture and race anybody from any race can rock any culture ok let's go to our panel dr t.t. lola banjoko your british nigerian doctor advisor to the e.u. and the u.n. on migration issues also the founder of africa recruit what do you make of it can i first say that i don't take offense to what you said because i know i'm not one of those who had to find it and i think you've taken the narrow way and and you've used that sterile stereotype which is wrong to define a whole community if you say you've lived in ninety eight you would know that there is a sense of trust of communities where people get together around be going to it's across the african continent where we don't even have agreements and we bring money we share money with each other so what's the level is that not trust. to me that is trust here we define it as crowd funding but actually has been going on in africa

for centuries so there is a very high level of trust it's the level of trust of government which you're confusing with the level of trust of society now in terms of bringing habits to the country which i call my country here. actually there are some you said in your books a number of good things that we've brought one a caring attitude. which is why there is no surprise that many migrants work in the care sector respect for elders i respect you see i said i don't take offense i respect you do you think that's a valuable thing that we should all be sharing and learning i mean i read your book and i thought i defined it as a very good pub you know who in a pub will have a pub quiz it's a story book there's no evidence you contradicted yourself so many times i've even said let's talk of a comeback imagine a comeback on a trust point and evidence point.

first of all my own doctor is a nigerian woman so. i am able to distinguish between one another so there are. local community level support systems which are high trust. but to say it's hard to africa's high trust know that the really high trust society in the world is japan ok let's go let's go to another member of our panel david good heart he's here he's the author of the book the british dream and you in your book david unlike paul you don't talk so much about indigenous you used the phrase if i remember correctly when i read it white british you get how people sometimes are quite suspicious when they hear those labels you know but i do think it's one of the best things about the debate in the last few years is that we have been able to distinguish issues of race and racial justice from its use of the economic and yes in the cultural impact

a very large scale immigration you do have very serious issues of integration and segregation almost half the ethnic minority population now live in wards where less than half of the population are white british there that seems to me a kind of concentration and a sort of separating out that it's very unhealthy for for a good civic society where people do feel a mutual raghad and they want to share with you to get into a statistical argument because of the all the stuff is always contest contested by people on all sides is about the racial composition of the population or is it about as paul asked me you know feeling british feeling english feeling european because again they seem to be mixed messages i think i think these things become sort of symbolic in a way no i don't think it is about white race but i think it is about scale and speed of change let me bring in phillip mcgraw on who is also an economist all through the book immigrants your country needs them. their original question asked to pull if you see what phillips could be coming from in the perspective. paul made

the common. at the start we talked about you know there are social and cultural cost immigration not everything is good not things but it depends how much given his belief that immigration is going to rapidly increase in coming years the whole multiplier effect asper effect is that a good enough reason therefore in your view even as a supporter of the actually we do need to do something about it before it gets out of control and damaging and put some controls and first of all there is no evidence of diversity actually reduces trust or social cohesion the evidence from the united states where they say they have a history of slavery and therefore polarized relations between whites and blacks studies in europe don't find that at all second of all is accelerator model is not a recognized model of migration in fact it's contracted by the evidence the idea that it without controls that everyone moves and countries become depopulated is contradicted by the evidence is in africa where there is next to nigeria nigeria six times richer share is not depopulated basically there are controls between them

is contradicted within europe where sweden is six times richer than romania the remaining is not depopulated it's contradicted within united states where mainland united states is three times richer than puerto rico and puerto rico is not populated so this is just spurious fear mongering this is not evidence based at all and you are using your position as an economist and claiming that evidence exists when actually it doesn't let's. repeat that sort of argument. really doesn't cut the mustard the. is the. paper a couple years ago called. finds that the single most powerful driver of immigration migration is the size of the diaspora can you find any example of your accelerator more i can't actually there are i do so in the book you don't. get

it don't you start actually i don't you just assert you draw a lot if you claim expertise when you don't have it going to make ration actually carry the point that don't actually quote studies backing up your arguments i'm sorry if you want if you want things employers of a celebration of the example given the book is turkish cyprus. where there are more turkish sleep cypriots living in britain now than there are in turkey cyprus will come later i hope to water the effects on all the countries of origin thank you for doing the segue into the next discussion that's exactly what i want to ask you about you say that it might not just harm developed countries in the future in terms of cultural solidarity but that it actually could pose a real danger to the development prospects of the countries quote left behind you talk about kind of the harm and damage that could be done what harm and damage you for and to specifically emigrants or migrants. they tend to be the

the young the enterprising the skilled the educated. and people like that are if you like with fairy godmothers in any society they're useful to others . and so country like say haiti where about eighty five percent of the young educated leave that debilitate many would say haiti is an aberration given its history of natural disasters and being next door to the united states but i take your point if we were to if we would all agree with your thesis on this particular one of the poorest countries why should i not try and leave haiti and try to get a better job rather than stay in a country ruled by dictators dominated by corruption blighted by natural disasters purely by the bad luck of my birth people turn have the right to live anywhere in the world without the right to leave their country and it's a human right of course you would admit as you do in the book just for context i

think it's four hundred billion dollars in remittances from skilled migrants to those poor countries those people because they're productive skilled energetic if they'd stayed in their country they would also have produced no more glass there's no evidence for that that's one of the last what they were what the critics say about your book there's no evidence that if you keep a skilled bunch of people in a hellhole that hellhole will become heaven look there's no evidence for that no. that is abusive language that you describe as hell hole. are the societies which absolutely have to catch up with the rest of the your employer leaving stop over keep in mind there is no evidence for the most in challenge for the twenty first century is that the poorest societies catch up with the rest read just a philosophical level it's wonder your view would it be

a good thing a morally commendable thing for those poorer countries to put in immigration controls to stop those skilled energetic young people from leaving in the first place nobody like north korea or cuba and no obviously not obviously because there is no moral right to restrict exit that is turning a country into a prison how is it morally different to say you can't stop people from leaving so what we'll do is we'll do that for you by stopping them from coming what i'm advocating is people should. get skills get education go back to come here to work and settle you do you want less i don't want less i want to. prevent an acceleration certainly let's go back to our panel this movement of peoples especially from the developing world to develop world can be if the brain drain exceeds the brain very damaging what's your response to that is not just the

developing countries even this country is losing skills to australia canada so it's it's all about people searching for platoon it is and people will continue to search a lot of people actually are going back to the continent of africa and i'm sure you know that this is not about so there is a lot of speculation going on what the what we can do is restrict the flow of money from the very rich who take money from these countries and bring it to the west i'm in battle with you to try and. break the banking secrecy which permits you've been a journalist for many years been around the political scene surely you and i both know that when governments are making these decisions about restricting immigration and keeping foreigners out it's not very much to do with caring about the developing countries and their futures. it is mainly reacting to public opinion although actually i think let's not you know take people take the brightest in the best from all those countries and the the area where this is most that we haven't

spoken about is the area of health care i think that something like one third of all the nurses working in london have come relatively recently from other countries many of them very poor countries that cannot afford to lose their train health care workers and what the response to david and paul there's a contradiction at the heart again of his book i mean in the beginning he is explained his theory of under-development which is that poor countries are poor use of what he calls dysfunctional social models now if that's true why would preventing skilled people change anything it's a dysfunctional social model to make some pour so keeping the skilled people there they're still going to be poor i mean and look at north korea. it prevents emigration has that somehow made it rich your argument simply don't stand up they're absolutely incoherent and ridiculous is the. point last point at the end if you don't say having said how terrible it is that they're skilled immigration from poor countries you then say that actually rich countries should select migrants on

the basis of skills and employability you left sheffield to go work in washington at the world bank for your self improvement did it since you're so brilliant sheffield presumably lost out as a result should you have been prevented from moving i don't think so should you have stated your field full of your being. i chose my self interest there was a tension as there is with a lot of migrants between do i look after myself or do i care about the people left behind while some of them are doing both by sending about income to sell those countries. this is. the average migrant from a poor country sends back a thousand dollars a year. that's not a great song if if they're bright energetic and skilled and they stayed in their country they'd probably generate more than a thousand total assumption probably the evidence is not there is no evidence

evidence of something but there's always more evidence sort of the really is no no no you're counting formal remittances can i just correct you to. a lot of informal images which you have no idea about. we'll take a break we're going to come back in part two to talk about one other area of the migration debate because a lot of heat asylum and immigration and proposals for what to do with refugees will also be hearing from our audience here in the oxford union join us for part two of head to head after the break. southbound on the economic heartbeat of a thriving brazil but boom times mean rising rents and the lack of public housing isabella is just one of thousands looking for a place to call. there's no choice but to occupy one of the city's many vacant buildings facing an uncertain future. he'll find

a latin america occupying brazil on al-jazeera. some journeys are tough. but this route. to make the truck there it's dangerous to zero. truck drivers in danger. just to be clear if you drive it might break your limit. because of this long for. a good. analogy. i mean this is different whether someone is telling for something is very right is not a tree thing it's how you approach it and that's it is a certain way of doing it you can just. enjoy just going. on counting the cost financial tremors in turkey shank investor sentiment in emerging

markets a perfect storm of factors including land reform is hitting south africa's economy plus why google is tracking your every move counting the cost and i just you know. you want your knowledge is there i'm still roman and all these are all top news stories former u.n. secretary general kofi annan has died at the age of eighty he served seven secretary general from one thousand nine hundred ninety seven to two thousand and six and was the first to rise to the top of the united nations from within the ranks of the organization he received the nobel peace prize jointly with the united nations in two thousand and one stefan to jaric his folks person for the united nations secretary general and he worked with kofi annan in the past you know he was good man and i think he did. very. well the moment the way

to heal. if you're a good parent or you get worked so hard to avoid card you can work your part to avoid war but i think what needs to be remembered is that one. should want the war. he made sure that the united nations did not abandon the good people of iraq. the state funeral has taken place for the victims of the bridge that collapsed in genoa in italy but sometime needs blame the government for the disaster and say they'll boycott the ceremony now the remains of a family a hospital wife and their nine year old daughter have been recovered from the rubble off that bridge collapsed on tuesday. indian prime minister narendra modi has surveyed what's been described as some of the worst flooding in the century in the state of carola thousands of stranded people are waiting to be rescued in the southern indian state as heavy rain continues to batter the region. former

cricketer imran khan has been officially sworn in as prime minister of pakistan it's taken him more than two decades to get the top job after retiring from sport and turning his attention to politics he was elected prime minister in a vote at the national assembly on friday qatar is accusing saudi arabia of blocking its citizens from performing the muslim hard pilgrimage he could tare government says its nationals were unable to get permits to travel to mecca saudi arabia denies this saying an unspecified number of guitars have arrived for the pilgrimage the u.a.e. saudi arabia bahrain egypt cut diplomatic ties with qatar more than a year ago they accused of supporting terrorism a claim that could tare government has strongly denied those were the headlines and back with the news hour in half an hour here on al-jazeera next we continue with head to head. thank you.

welcome back to head to head on al-jazeera we are talking about immigration with professor paul collier of oxford university in part one we talked about immigration from south to north we talked about integration we talked about the effect on the so-called left behind countries i just want to ask you this one group of migrants even the most hardline critics and opponents of immigration tend to put to one side and treat more generously all refugees and asylum seekers most people think we have a moral and a legal obligation to open our borders to people fleeing conflicts and persecution and you say the same in your book exodus but then you add this rather some might say you say when peace is restored you say people should be quote required to return just to clarify would you forcibly refugees to their countries of origin against their will maybe no matter how long they've been settled in

a new country of course not the cool thing we should be focused on with conflict countries the conflict. of conflicts. and the post conflict countries are the most vulnerable societies in the world very often they revert to conflict and so again a vital task is to try and make that conflict recovery. as successful as possible i work with a lot of conflicts societies and governments and the standard problem that governments face conflict is that all the skilled people are left. and so i do think it's responsible to have policies which encourage people to go back when you should required to return though that would be an overstayer right but when

you're a state yeah ok it's my overstatement of it is it's really to try and focus on the issue that it's of course it's very important to protect the skilled and educated by taking them out of the society whilst the conflict is happening but it's just to clarify while the conflicts happening if it's going on for years as many conflicts do should they have the right to settle here and work here that the presumption should be. that people should be. provided with a safe refuge with that with some sort of presumption of return of course most refugees. don't come to rich societies. the other refugee camps and so they're the real challenge agree more important you say that you say that those conflicts don't last that long according to the u.n.h.c.r. the average refugee now spend seventeen years as a refugee rather than nine years a decade previously some of these conflicts in places like iraq afghanistan the

democratic republic of congo even in pakistan violence doesn't seem to be abating at all i mean how do you say to people now's a time safe when you decide it's safe we must encourage all to go back quite often . there are there are a peace settlements which to mark. an end to conflict a time where without a peace settlement people can stay but if there's only a settlement only sure if there are so iraqis today if you take a real world example iraqis living in the west would you don't want them to be required to return to encourage to return of course not of course it's still in conflict very obviously while they're here with their families they shouldn't integrate they should where possible retain their links with iraq so that when the conflict is over which it will be. then they can go back and help rebuild their country if you've been in the country ten years twelve years

fifteen years twenty years you've had kids they've gone to school they've never seen that country that you moved from they don't speak the language absolutely required to return no no of course not but there's a desperate situation or a small group of people trying to restore a country desperately short of skilled people who know the society and the key resource to draw on is the skilled the aspirant even in afghanistan one of my students last year. gone by is trying to rebuild the society is brave you have lee he was a hero because he volunteered to go and do that he didn't do that as the british government pressuring no get out but we have a duty of rescue in a context in which there's a larger duty to try and help rebuild these societies from being smashed up conflict is not agreement and the same would say divorce those two debates the refugee debates too important to be tacked on to the development of the priorities

poor refugee debate is not what happens here it's what happens in the refugee camp well it's interesting you raise that issue because of course a lot of people here talk about the issues of refugee in asylum and you raise the issue in your book actually the west as a whole doesn't take enough refugees to begin with i think britain takes less than one percent of the world refugee population and developing countries take something like eighty six percent of the world's refugees up from seventy percent a decade ago the refugees overwhelmingly are going to continue to be in countries that border areas of the conflict so the fate of refugees. does not really depend on whether a few thousand more harm to the rich society is what matters is what happens to the millions agree and so agree it doesn't change our fundamental responsibility is to make the those refugee camps far better place we call it economically

opposite mutually exclusive we could it's a referral there's no room for that report published peripheral because last year the british government took ninety syrians not ninety thousand ninety syrians and it is a shame and fully understand how many hundreds of thousands or millions of syrians actually need refuge yes i'd like us to give more money to refugee camps and also take in more refugees would you find ok but the real balance of priority is the camps agreed let's go to our let's go to our panel. paul talks about refugees should be keeping links with the countries they fled from in order to be ready to go back and help rebuild surprise up i mean i know that they already do that and many of them i know of a lot of afghans healthcare professionals working in this country who go home regularly a medical mission trips to south sudan to somalia so in terms of not counted your

previous argument where you were saying these people shouldn't be these middle class people you described actually doing more to take months to take materials they sacrifice a lot sacrificial given there's a difference between just throwing money out and sacrificing your life to do this like you did that knowledge that in the book let me let me bring in david david you'll remember in this country we talked about the u.k. context a lot of the stuff about immigration you talk about how the debate has changed what's your position today on the on the refugee asylum part of this debate i think most people in this country still believe in the idea of providing asylum i mean one of the problems here is though that the definition of. qualifies for asylum has expanded and expanded and expanded so there are now on some calculations perhaps one billion people out there in the world who could technically qualified to come here as an asylum seeker which i think is a problem. but then if you are thinking about places that are experiencing civil war natural disasters of one kind or another we should pay

a decent temporary. villages cities for people like that and they can then keep an eye on what is happening in their country they'll be closer to what's going on and they will know when it is safe to return to your point if they do reach it and many do through genuine persecution and are ended up settling here for several years do you believe they should have the right to settle here have children if they are genuine asylum seekers who whose lives are in danger in some way in the country they come down saying the danger is gone were several years down the line but they've been here they're working they got no i don't think it is actually to leave here the presumption should be they should go back look up briefly philippa read. it again for his argument i mean he he says only it you agree only a tiny proportion of refugees go to the west so it's only a tiny proportion why is it so essential for their country's future that tiny proportion go back to leap.

who are the refugees who get to the west there the more educated. more able the people best able to get out. the people with the biggest incentive to get out of the most educated well that's a perfect group at the same with us but it is here in the rational self-interest of the people who are living off a little social category only sense of highly skilled it's it's it's the poor it's the middle class it's the even the rich it's all sorts of people just this despise from sarah that's just not true for the people who have education a much more likely. to come as far as the west than the people with their ok let's leave it there we're going to bring in our audience to ask them questions trying to keep your points short as possible is go here to the front row later here in the front row and the more go to the back isn't it arguable that. in those countries

where we have either started the conflict or we have prolonged the conflict that we have a greater moral responsibility to take in more refugees rather than giving the burden to the neighbors i was there just want to say that under the one hundred fifty one united nations refugee convention we have a legal obligation to take in genuine refugees and the convention does not put a time limit on how long these refugees can stay ok. yes where where we where we cause conflicts we've obviously got more moral responsibility than where we didn't cause them but. we've still got a moral responsibility even where we didn't cause them because basically we should be navigating by need here but the but the but to just to reiterate.

migration to the west is a peripheral aspect of what to do when there's a conflict the really important thing is to help to rebuild the society after conflict whilst treating the vast number of refugees well during the conflict while at the legal point you made that actually what you propose is illegal under international law to set a time limit on how long refugees can stay i'm an economist not a lawyer and i tend to think that. the lawyers look at things in a rather blinkered way that what we should and what my home is. what economists look at is try to look at is what's best for society ok let's go to the lady in the row and then the gentleman next to a migrant from malawi in africa there's been a lot of mention quite a lot about the damage that migrants from my part of the world to t.k. culture i want to know exactly what do you mean by that when you talk about trust

to me the biggest abuses sas has a trust in a massive scale lately has been linked to the great recession which had nothing to do with people from my part of the world and a lot of us become citizens as well our story becomes part of britain story you know isn't this more about living with difference and you're an easy is that. you know. i'm sorry if you got a sense that i'm saying immigrants from malawi or anywhere else are called problems in britain or anywhere else i'm not right. you are. you're misinterpreting. pretty fundamentally what i'm saying. so if we have more. good luck to the beginning discussion we still know it's been good till now it's been good but in the future it's going to be bad. that's what i'm struggling i've been struggling with throughout or maybe

you're not really struggling what i'm saying. what i say. is that there is a good reason to think that migration left to itself with controls would accelerate the red herring who's leaving who's calling for migration without control by the prof a million a year we were going to have a population of eighty million by twenty fifty i mean nobody has any direct you know. because of the future but it is about this scale it's about this scale of change now this audience is mainly you know highly educated mo boil liberal that they are comfortable you're comfortable with change most people in most societies are not they've not taken account of those perfectly normal human feelings and polish he also says in his book that microstrip be selected on the basis of cultural distance so actually he doesn't want people from malawi he wants more people who he considers similar to himself ok what makes let's. say audience

section promise don. let's bring in some more gentlemen here next yes yes i wanted to say that there was this debate between. diversity and trust but you know i think trust is maybe overrated i mean i come from ireland we had two indigenous populations katha the control the student the been there for hundreds of years they didn't trust each other and they fought against each other and kill each other and in fact it might have been good if we had people from china from somewhere maybe to actually go there and i also think that we don't need this trust we need the rule of law so you have the rule of law and i might not trust you you might not trust me you're a stranger i'm not from your village you're from another village you're from another religion but we exist within the rule of law which is known english tradition and we get along ok.

societies. are the worst nightmare and so as you wittily point out a bit of diversity the breaks polarized nation might be viewed improvement and probably would have been on. the point about. law as a substitute for trust do we want a society that has mutual respect or do we want a society that moves beyond mutual respect to mutual regard and the mutual respect is what you would cheve through the law you have to respect each other like it or not as it were but. a good society actually moves beyond you to respect to mutual regard because it's that move that actually builds willingness to be generous to other people a gentleman here in the second which is a question for the professor do you think that such

a sensible policy for migration you're talking about temporary migrants might be to allow in only the work themselves to keep their families outside of the countries to not allow them to vote to only allow them to go back home maybe three weeks every two years to keep them an inferior conditions to give them worse health facilities and the reason i ask this is because it seems to work really well in qatar. saudi arabia and countries out there he doesn't is not here to speak about arab regimes he did speak about his book so i asked him could be very good i think if you will came here tonight and asked him a series of questions about how he thinks about how abysmally gulf kingdoms treat them are going to be a very odd one hour that me and paul collier spent talking about that to be fair to the questioner. i do discuss the gulf migration policies in the book well and what i say about them and what i say about them is that.

for somebody like philip they're perfect they get all loads of economic gains so they tick all the economic boxes and they are and they are absolutely disgusting and not something that a western society could translate to me and i don't. think it's a point why do we let more of them into the u.k. that's what i'd like to see would you like to see that as well because a lot of people would like to come and work here i'm sure but you and david were the first people in the report saying go home. no this is not ok then let's go back to the audience with to theater let's take let's. take a stand we're waiting very patiently here in the jacket second row coming to the stand. my name is evil coca leaf. from the country because of a problem caused by the british. my arrival here i was detained for several months before the legal battle i won my case i was given they refused to jews. so my

question to you according to your book is how do you plan to get refugees who've been here for more than seventy years to return and rebuild their countries with your kids and all that involves forcefully move on first with deportation which will cause retirement tyreese in effect to these families no of course not right now. the. let me be clear about not i'm not advocating for st patrick haitian i don't know which country you're from the moon's out on camera. the. but the we could go around the circle again but no one i'm not your britain is now your home and it should stay you are right. but there's clearly a need in the cameroon too. for some people to help. build that society

survey catches up with britain so that future generations in the cameroon don't face this huge income gap and lack the civil rights. hold on. we're running out of time gentlemen now in the third row yes it strikes me that a lot of this discussion has been about self interest verses interest for the community i myself am from a laser but i've been raised in the u.s. i have an american accent how would you engender this sense of community values what we need to do for that so that at least the people that aren't forced migrants are interested in going back many migrants reconcile that tension by actually doing a lot for their original societies. and their but that is a process that to be basically to be to be celebrated and encourage but i think it's very important that. we shouldn't just look at. interest there's

a sort of libertarian cult which is quite common in in economics which basically reduces to people should be free to pursue their self interest and i think the real limits to pull one last question for me before we finish there's a lot of ignorance obviously on the subject a lot of fear mongering from certain sections of the political spectrum opinion polls suggest that a lot of british people lot of french people or americans or the canadians. overestimate for example how many migrants are living in their societies as a lot of fear fear of change to quote david. what do you say to people who say that when we obsess about immigration in this way when we have this perspective. and when you write about the we all worry about the future accelerating rate and the harm that may come you'll simply playing into that hysteria you're playing into that ignorance rather than kind of challenging it and controlling it first of all i really whatever i can be accused of. creating europe's his styria about migration

are not guilty right nobody's nobody's going to you that. what are you what is it my wider point which i was trying to make about some. yes theory around this debate what we've got is a polarized and strident debate in which the extremes shout a lot and the center stays silent. because center politicians should just. want the subject to go away and that is a dereliction of duty on the part of the politicians of the center we need to seize the debate to say it's not. migration is terrible migration is wonderful our gratian is a relatively minor process. for the rich countries that needs to be managed

bearing taking into account the rather more important interests of the poor societies from which these people are coming and of course you would have if you would acknowledge i think the statistic out there that i came across that ninety seven percent of the world's population actually live in the country where they were born and so we lose that we're talking i think i read percent in the book right around that we're talking about a touch of a tiny element the reality for the future is not that we all turn into a global soup the reality for the future is people will live predominantly ninety seven percent in their own countries actually the big migration flows if we look at century since the big migration flows will have gone down not up. one thing in which phillips wrong which i was a nice point on which to end is that. is that going down the

razor knife is always a migration is not an integral part of globalization globalization of trade of capital flows is actually almost hernot to moving people we shouldn't be moving people to jobs we should build a world in which jobs move to people who will have to leave it there thank you very much will you much as you head to head in the oxford union thank you very much for our audience here in your spirit our wonderful panel of experts thank you very much for watching at home this debate is not going away good night. the tea. this don did not have the ability to take on every day to the next world no one is also going to get to fight all of them big enough to sponsor and flown them as well

in search of the missing pieces of it in every important meetings at all for the moment he said i like doing the right to sue the off the pakistani puzzle when you go the news of bin laden was killed were you surprised or was your reaction oh they found him the place we continue we will but we don't want anyone to know mehdi hasan goes head to head with the form of pakistani foreign minister on al-jazeera. tensions a high. little has changed and new village officials are struggling to demonstrate goodwill. among morial is trying for a comrade who sacrificed his life the political. but will you might drive

a wedge between the villages. part three of a six top series filmed over a five year. china's democracy experiment on al-jazeera. from cool brisk noise and fuel rods. to the warm tranquil waters of southeast asia. hello again welcome back to international weather forecasts we're here across south america we are watching one for the bunny in particular making its way towards one is that as you can see the clouds right there approaching the city from the southwest now what that's going to do over the next day is really bring those temperatures down so today now looking too bad at about twenty one degrees there with rain in your forecast but we do expect to see tomorrow a much different scenario as cooler air starts make its way in and your high is going to only get to about eleven degrees there up towards rio about twenty five and up towards chi and we're going to be seeing about thirty degrees in your forecast there very quickly want to take you up here towards the central regions in

course parts of central america we're looking at quite a bit of heavy rain showers pushing into the yucatan with a tropical wave approaching there but up towards the eastern part of cuba partly cloudy to mostly cloudy conditions heavier rain appear towards savannah as well as into the keys and up towards nasa but we are going to be seeing really not much of a change as we go towards the next few days with center domingo with partly cloudy conditions at about thirty one degrees for you and then very quickly up towards north america we are seeing some very heavy rain showers now moving into the northeast that's going to really hamper all that flooding situation that's going on across the region temperatures dropping across sunday into new york at twenty four and washington at about twenty eight. the weather sponsored by cattle and peace. they set sail for gold. but discovered their resources worth more than its way to human be. driven by commerce enabled through politics and religion executed with brutality. in episode one slavery roots charge the birth and rise of

the african slave trade mapping a history that has tainted humanity. for all the gold in the world and i've just got. this is al jazeera. hello i was the whole robin you're watching the al-jazeera news our life my headquarters here in doha coming up in the next sixty minutes the former u.n. secretary general and nobel peace laureate kofi anon has died at the age of eighteen. also hundreds killed and tens of thousands displaced stans the indian state of carola is hit by the worst floods in a century. also a new leader at the helm takes charge as pakistan's prime minister promising a.