ns of war when there is war going on the army will claim a preeminent role the other is to have constant civilian government that produces economic growth in parts of history you've had either not even his government certainly not. it will come back i'm going to show that you actually were advisor to the pakistani foreign ministry you were in government i think the same time as you know do you feel the military were pushing you around at the time would you feel that you had control over the i'm a lot more sort of positive about the experience i think that there was some really really big issues on which under the leadership of former foreign minister carter we were able to redefine the way that foreign policy is structured in pakistan there's a long history to the bitterness between afghanistan and pakistan but the redefinition of the repositioning of how islamabad and bindi relate to afghanistan that happened on the not a bunny close watch and it happened not because the military was ready to jump in the military frankly needed to be convinced. you're

a political scientist at king's college london or throw a book on islamist parties in pakistan do you think the government was part of did enough to rein in the military and subsequent government to hold them to account she's talking about the constraints she was up against what's your view i think it's been it's been quite a mixed record but certainly for those that are that which you know was part of the problem was that there was absolutely no clarity of policy in the war on terror that the general musharraf regime supported was actually something that had absolutely no alternative to you know it continued with similar policies didn't question the war on terror the fundamentals of the war on terror the their reasoning distracted the success of those tactics and that embolden the military and that the war on terror has. been most helpful for the military in pakistan and you lack clarity and you lack competence. when there may be bought i would have to

be much more competent and have much more clarity but i would be i would be very unhappy with myself if i'm told that we lack clarity on the foreign policy front because i like to believe that we did humongous on the foreign directing the foreign policy because i did the region. pivotal pakistan because we believe we don't need to have a great relationship with london or with washington d.c. but a great relationship with delhi after thirty five years no military government or civilian government in pakistan had the guts to normalize trade with india and we were told as a policy that we will not solve the problem could be solved by should we change that do not underestimate the importance of that we can either effigies the bond or heaven the bar is not high on effigy burning in pa not to be. there might be just to deal with the so-called war on terror following last year's pretty horrific attack on the school and pushover in which the pakistani taliban the t.t.p. killed one hundred thirty two children the prime minister nawaz sharif said that pakistan would no longer differentiate between good taliban those who fight for

pakistan's interests abroad and bad taliban those attacking pakistan home isn't that basically an admission that that's what had been happening in the past including during your time in office that you guys backed the taliban as well as the so-called good talent i think promised in the past you would slumbering away for the last five years before he came into power because clearly that is the distinctive feature of the policy that we were trying to run and it is something which is recognised within the military quarters also and i have to get the military credit for being able to change that policy because that was where deep in their wins it was considered to be anyone who believed that the way it was a traitor to pakistan and they were able to change it and please say what you mean about president that idea but do give him credit for that region that and for the fact that the p.p.p. came with a complete regional focus with hillary clinton the us your counterpart at the time was she slumbering as well in twenty eleven when she told you to your face that she had evidence that there'd been quote communication between the haqqani network that brutal fighting group in afghanistan and elements within the pakistan government

prior to the attack by the haqqani network on the us embassy and nato headquarters in kabul in september of twenty eleven how many times of foreign minister did you have to listen to allies of yours basically accuse you to your face to your states by. of terrorism well much too many times i had to listen to that and i didn't tell them their all slumbering no i did not tell them there was something that a certain things which were which which hair and. beards of truth in them as of truth. which were partially relics of the past i believe which were super imposing on what the present was ok i will tell you one thing pakistan did not have the ability maybe to be able to take on every. network within the region all at the same time no i think no one's asking you to go to fight all of them but you don't have to sponsor and one as well and to support as their sponsoring in funding them was concerned clearly that i would like to believe that under our watch that was not the policy direction at all so when the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff admiral mike mullen told the senate in september twenty seventh that extremist

organization serving as proxies of the government of pakistan are attacking afghan troops and civilians and u.s. soldiers the haqqani network is a veritable arm of the i.s.i. which he slumbering to know he was misguided because i believe and i think history will prove to be correct that pakistan was fantastically for all there is and the wrongs of the war in afghanistan. drone strikes what is your view of u.s. drone strikes on pakistani soil against pakistani militants and pakistani civilians are you a supporter we said that grown strange that counterproductive what is done to productive it means that they're actually fueling extremism and assisting people to attract more people towards extremism we said that they were against pakistan's territorial and we used to the pakistani go back on the government so why do thanks to a us state department cable do we hear the pakistani prime minister use of result your then boss saying in private i don't care if they the americans do drone strikes as

long as they get the right people will protest in the national assembly and then we'll ignore it how cynical how two faced with your government protesting in public against drone strikes but backing in but i guess what betty. i was the foreign minister the prime minister never said this in the room when i was in the room what is necessary to you about your status within the government no i was i was i was pretty much in every important meeting so from the moment he said i. was foreign minister from two thousand and eleven march two thousand and eleven to the end of five but what i'm saying is that i also want to find and i'm not going to i probably will you can not be willing to believe that he would say a thing like this i really am not which i don't know possibly could be why not ok so when president zardari said to journalists on the record in two thousand and ten in lahore there are no differences between pakistan and the u.s. over any issue including drone attacks you're saying if i think what he was referring to was the fact that the u.s. also believes that drone strikes are not a permanent solution and they do ok let me give you

a statistics for one for forty seven people who are on the hit list what they call the high value targets between yemen and pakistan the u.s. according to the most conservative reports killed one hundred one thousand one hundred forty seven people how is that. what does that say to you about propelling extremism i agree with you i'm saying to you i think drone strikes above the problem is your government in private didn't seem to think that well what i'm saying is the president when he talked to reporters the president told michael hayden cia director president of the ari collateral damage worries you americans it does not worry me in reference to not in the rooms not in the in the room i was as . they take all these issues but they don't tell you what i'm saying is i refuse to believe you are in the public say drones about well they're in the back going what i'm running your own programs thing is that it is. i mean if you're serious thank you thank you thank you what i'm saying is that it is not possible for me to believe that things change so much. because of my presence in

the room or not so what i'm saying is that some of these things could have been misrepresented or mr ported. misrepresented misreported what is your view on the relationship between the pakistani government and drone strikes i think if you take away the question of mr presentation we're still left with the fact that in actual fact drones intensified during musharraf regime we have with fewer drones then during the. president bush and president obama had a very difficult different perspective on durant and presence as president obama happened to be there president. musharraf time president bush happened to be the president who believed and maybe troops on the ground putting the door your president can say no thanks we don't want these do you know we have a stick we have a parliamentary resolution which was probably unprecedented in the history of pakistan which clearly stipulated that no one in pakistan nor one in pakistan is authorized to give any acquisitions to drone strikes until unless the parliament

ratified a document from the cia and twenty thirteen showed that the i.s.i. was helping the cia pick targets for drone strikes in part this is this is this is the parliamentary resolution and let's go to. just moving on from the the wider issue of drone strikes at home or touches. there is this constant accusation that pakistan is playing a double game on the one hand it's saying we're with you in the war on terror with sacrificing our soldiers we're fighting against the taliban and other groups on the other hand they're supporting those groups are turning a blind eye to what they're doing how do you respond to that challenge the country is supposed to fulfill its own interests and pursue its own interests above and beyond any other country's interest so the issue this whole concept of a double game comes from the standard presupposes assumption that somehow pakistan's game should be to fulfil what people that live in washington d.c. want but but since game is not to trivialize the united states and take twenty billion dollars from the u.s. first of all it wasn't twenty billion dollars second of actually bucks on was forced because but by by the admission of the former president of pakistan the military dictator musharraf and by admission of u.s.

authorities themselves they threatened to bomb pakistan back to the stone age the blame for drone strikes has to be it has to be on the party that's conducting the drone strikes and also the part of helping the broader indeed i mean that is a victim of drones or not of the not is not helping the u.s. or those. who do it so. i don't think there's enough proof that. you've heard what the sheriff has said and i said what's your response what on the drone strikes i mean pakistan could easily deny the airspace and recently there was a t.t.p. commander who was killed on the afghan side with intelligence provided by the pakistanis so i mean that that was that case and when it came to militants they targeted the ones that they they fought the ones that they had to the appease the ones that they could they ignore the ones that didn't touch them and they did and they discreetly supported the ones who fought across their borders this was part of a strategy to try and maximize influence in the region did it work. because some people to what you have the t.t.p.

not blowing stuff but we have to be of the certainly what was blowback it depends what situation you're looking at and i think this is actually the reason why yes you do try regional but boxen remains massively isolated internationally and regionally you know interesting one doesn't tire from hearing how much blood the world has given in terms of trying to reform. three thousand five hundred or even less than that the total number of soldiers who have lost their lives in that time in pakistan six thousand soldiers and policemen have lost their lives in the same period i bet they were fighting people that they created themselves i bet at the same time they were funding them they were giving them arms and ammunition and money and the same kind of fighting the whole the whole you're conceding you're conceding that the people who died fighting in the pakistani armed forces were fighting people that they helped create you conceding no i'm not at all conceding that i'm saying how remarkably sadistic do you think we are to be able to even give us an argument like this it's a stock in the evidence that you refusing to see maybe pakistan's draw is to

protect its own people before the united states and you know. that it would have you know what i think is an area i mean the statistics are off the supposedly approximately four thousand people who died only seven hundred twenty six have been named all of those only about one hundred sixty nine are legit militants they are disproportionately affecting civilians as foreign minister you never you never took this up the only issue is that you get sick. of where you want on nearly not only me as foreign minister for you to say that's not really not i'm not i'm going to get here because i believe. in ensuring that there was no double feasting on pakistan's wrong policy because i take myself seriously and i take the trust and the responsibility of the people of pakistan that is put in me talking of as an elected member very seriously let's take a sort of double face in the accusations that are made against your government you were the defacto foreign minister during the u.s. raid. bin laden's compound in about about in may twenty eleven in which he was

killed when you got the news that bin laden was killed when you surprised shocked even that he had been found in pakistan. or was your reaction more like they found him in the place we kind of knew he was but we don't want anyone to know. which one was it what was your reaction to. it was completely i think it would be understanding it also i mean we went in we don't know what happened and we were we went still we don't know how to react. your own former cabinet colleagues defense minister. said in october the president zardari and the head of the pakistani army than general kiani both knew that bin laden was in pakistan did you know you know in the room no he was not in the room he was not in the room the defense minister was in the defense minister the fact is the defense minister was not in the room and i wasn't and that's a fact and i can assure you the defense minister doesn't know the first thing about what the former defense minister doesn't know the first thing that was done in the country and was he pointed out something. like bettors it was used on the defense

minister of government. it's up to the government to appoint the defense minister by appointing someone and this is defense minister who said he found out about the raid because his daughter called him from the us that's how we're going to let me. go the little i want to point this person as and then that they were in control of . the army in the room is just resilient and i just responded at least briefly and then i completely agree with you on this one defense minister in pakistan is the most ineffective minister who knows nothing about the defense or the foreign policy of pakistan that is the fact that he's not you know not the best of the show to. get out of it without injury because if thank you with a bit of them point so you are saying nobody in the government had a clue about bin laden being about that even though he was in a military town in a pub compound down the road from a military academy and the military had no clue he was seriously so the people in

the room in this room i can tell you present the diary prime minister used to dress like myself as the minister of state for foreign affairs secretary for in the first military chief i said chief six people in the room right either all of them had to be fantastic actors who must get jobs in hollywood or bollywood because they all made a great pretense of being still and shock like i explained to you and not knowing how to react if they knew how to react would we give us the statement like we did because we don't know how to react you give us a statement out which we had to almost retract the next day. so when u.s. defense secretary leon panetta told congress at the time in may twenty eleven that pakistan was either involved or incompetent in terms of bin laden's whereabouts i'm guessing you're going to go with incompetence guilty for being incompetent ok so when cyril almeda the pakistani journalist said in the piece at the time if we didn't know bin laden was in about about we are a failed state if we didn't know we were a rogue state if the united states of america could not find there some of the night and it's that make it a rogue state or a failed state i think we rushed too quickly to call pakistan and the likes of

pakistan the failed state to be focused on this stuff or because the video was living down the road from the pentagon i think we would judge the united states you know you may you might as well what the fact of the matter is that there was a lot of intelligence agencies which were around so if they didn't know and we didn't know we were all in the same we were all in one last question before we have to take a break perception we do accept the people see pakistan in a pretty bad way when it comes to the subject of political violence extremism terrorism i think many pakistanis accept that many pakistanis see pakistan at a pretty bad place but they all happened after nine hundred seventy nine pakistan was at a very good place when you put in the extremism into the thought process into the minds and bodies of pakistanis clean them to be with and then said ok done with it extremism thought take out where was the exit strategy what the hell man i mean what they're really going to take a break where in part two we're going to be talking to him about the intractable conflict in kashmir we're going to hear more from our panel of experts and we're going to hear from our audience here in the oxford union that's after the break.

to. on counting the cost crippled by its currency crisis while rich venezuela takes desperate measures this deal with its struggling economy plus it has a market value of billions but is yet to turn a four year profit we delve deeper into what's going on at tesla. count you know a car and i just see it as. news is happening faster than. ever before from different places from different people and you need to be part of back you need to be able to reach people wherever they are and that means being across all social media platforms this is where our audience lives as well as in front of a t.v. they're on the smartphone they're on the tablet they're on their computer. and that's the way al-jazeera is of all due to a true media network. where their online this isn't

some abstract issue we need to pay attention to their stops or if you join us on sect rather than stopping terrorism it's creating a base is a dialogue and just the community is want to add to this conversation we need a president who's willing to be a villain in a short while everyone has a voice i'm part of civil society i need golf but i never get listening to those in the corridors of joining the global conversation. on out to zero. hello i'm matthew davis in doha with the top stories here at out is there the outrage against the catholic church is failure is justified those are the words of pope francis as he begins his two day visit was and is expected to meet victims of sexual abuse by the clergy the irish prime minister told the pope action must

follow words on tackling abuse and has one of the worst records of clerical sexual abuse in the world this is led to many of the country's strongly catholic population to turn away from the church. magilla laundries mother and baby homes industrial schools legal adoptions and clerical child abuse are stains on our state our society and also the church. people kept in dark corners behind closed doors cries for help that went on hurt. and these wounds are still open. and there is much to be done to bring about justice and truth and healing for the victims and survivors. holy father we ask that you use your office and influence to ensure that this is done here in ireland and also around the world . above all holy father we ask that you listen to the victims and survivors i know that you will do that and that you will bring to us the attributes of compassion

and humanity and honesty that we all here feel but you embody as pontiff. the u.s. is cutting more than two hundred million dollars in aid from its programs in gulzar in the west bank it's already withheld millions of dollars from the un's relief agency for palestinians relations between the u.s. and the palestinian leadership and to terror since president trump recognized jerusalem as israel's capital and move the american embassy there it may. ranger refugees living in bangladesh are holding protest a marquee year since the military crackdown that full some to flee their homes in me amal. there are now more than seven hundred thousand people in camps near the border bangladesh has signed a deal with me amar to allow the refugees to return home but many of them a still too afraid to go back those are the latest headlines from us here at

al-jazeera if you want to go to the web site remembers al-jazeera dot com let's go back now to head to head. thank you. welcome back to head to head on al-jazeera we've been talking about pakistan with the country's former foreign minister hinna rabani khar who's here with me in the oxford union we've been talking about drone strikes the role of the military the raid on bin laden let's talk about kashmir the former president of pakistan general musharraf once said that kashmir runs in our blood and we will never budge an inch on it recently general right heel sharif the head of the pakistani army has called kashmir pakistan's juggler vein hasn't this obsession with kashmir in this kind of hyperbolic rhetoric done more harm than good to pakistan over the past seven decades especially in recent years. maybe i don't think you can underestimate or take away the importance of because you are portrayed as

a figment of pakistan's imagination and crazy pakistanis going crazy over kashmir ok we have resolution forty seven of the security council of the un to prove on the request of the indian government went to the security council the security council asked for a certain number of things to be done which included the holding off of the site with. which would determine yes it was in one thousand forty eight to be precise and then there was another resolution one thousand nine hundred eighty and then there was another one and this is been a constant theme right would you agree that the military's role in kashmir policy especially in terms of backing various insurgent groups has been a very violent insurgency kill tens of thousands be since the late one nine hundred eighty s. do you think that has been a way for the military to control foreign and defense policy in pakistan subverted even have a bloated budget beyond what really should have pretty much a lot of academic work and academic work even by indians proves that the kashmir

insurgency in some way is was instigated by the government of india more than by pakistan that they made it happen because to do with my specific point about the packers i'm interested over the last twenty five years the military. obviously we'll have a different view on any issue which has to do with territory then a politician because they would try and find in nonmilitary we need to deal with this situation and that's why the within the constitution the military has a certain role and the parliament has a certain role and executive has a certain but even more militarily the certain provocative things you can do when you went to india yourself in twenty eleven as foreign minister you kicked off your visit not by meeting your indian counterpart or bt with the elected indian government but first by meeting with kashmiri separatist what's the harm in that you don't think pakistani foreign ministers meeting separatist groups before they meet there is provocative at all absolutely not you didn't they are part of your shock when you are that they're part of the dialogue why is hafiz mohammad saeed founder of a group in pakistan and internationally leader of the now rebranded jamaat ud dawa he has a ten million dollars bounty on his head is on the un and the us terrorist watchlist

and yet lives pretty normal free middle class life in the city of lahore he holds public meetings he goes on t.v. how does that work is concerned believe me we had zero love loss for them and after say they don't think i believe is irrelevant this man is wandering around saying some outrageous things doing press conferences got police protection why i think he's been tried i don't think that there is a free man right now and clearly the courts let him go. to the judiciary in pakistan is free and our system is very similar to that of india so please when you you have a few empty of anti terror laws that allow you to round up hundreds of people all the time just as there are several hundred people detained without charge and i can stand many people who say you detain lots of people you don't like i'm going to go you don't detain them they'll draw their own conclusions from that i'm just going to say that the state is not somebody i'm willing to protect in any way on this show or. you did not look i did absolutely try my absolute level best to make

sure that he was not somebody that the state of pakistan associated with any which way you are i think you know the wrong minister in two thousand and eight when the mumbai attacks happened i was in pakistan has been a q. sponsoring those attacks you were in you were foremost in twenty eleven when american citizen david headley pleaded guilty to helping militant group carrying out those attacks which killed one hundred sixty people he testified that quote operated under the umbrella of the i.s.i. and coordinated with each other the i.s.i. provided assistance to law school financial military moral when you heard him say that did you kick start an investigation into the side to see if those claims were true i think they were briefed as to the credibility of those claims and he was considered to be a double triple type of an agent sort of a personal reason to investigate his client who had very little credibility reefed does not invalidate the briefing is they told you this morning is what we asked for and they just said we didn't do it and you said as i said we i think we directed a change of policy which is throwing at us. over the settings that argue i'm asking did you hold an eye into account we tried to push as much as possible i still

believe today i believe at that time that it was in pakistan's best interest to get a resolution to the trial it was in our best interest. in mind you of the fact that the some truth i express trials are still ongoing and then get them and us have a very similar judicial process because unfortunately we cannot push the judicial process when you are independent my point was that when you want to bend the laws to arrest and detain people you do not own and we go to the parliament and these don't say that maybe i would hold you accountable for that we go to the parliament hold me accountable but on the other side. i don't want to blow this matter well then let me let me explain please explain the difference between pakistan of the one nine hundred seventy s. or it is when military regimes was there was that the military did not need to get laws passed through parliament to get those powers now they have to go to parliament that is under the protection of pakistan and under the action in aid of civil power regulation the military has the power to round up people they suspect encounter operate and they have to go to parliament to get credit and they didn't

round up half as moment so it is my point they didn't run that is something that's really what i was making about the legal process and one last question before i go to our panel president zardari said in. two thousand and thirty five thousand pakistanis have been killed in militant attacks many of them a lot of people would say by fighters coming home from kashmir in blow back people who were trained radicalized in kashmir they came home brought their expertise the ideology that violence with them is at a point you would know i would share it on the other border and i think you are selectively choosing to do that on the eastern border because the reality was that it was on the western border it was the arms and ammunition and the money which had come from all over the world which are going to train people to go in only from afghanistan global finance against me ok let me as i look said that it was our policy to ensure that there was nobody no instigation on that end because we were trying to pursue the part of negotiations let's put that point to our panel. time magazine's pakistan correspondent for six years blowback from kashmir do you believe there's been blowback from kashmir from oh there's certainly been groups in

militants who have fought in kashmir and then subsequently fought inside pakistan and those documents and the people from j. from j yeah from from these other groups you can find them they've been on pakistan's kill list of you know boxers most wanted list so that you know at that point and in terms of the point about genuine want to resolve it bilaterally through trade where would you give your responsibility well it's an intractable problem because. ones too. raise the kashmir issue because it embarrasses india pakistan can assert some moral authority over india in that way but the problem is a pox and so isolated it's the only country that is actually saying this they can't get anyone else on board by contrast the indians know that this is an inconvenience a source of embarrassment but they also know that the economically strong enough to ignore pakistan and to make sure the other people ignore pakistan which are if. you were invited to the pakistani foreign ministry says that pakistan has been trying

to use caution to embarrass india and india managed to shrug it off i'm guessing you disagree with them this is a problem kashmir is india not pakistan. if even if we accept the indian claims over kashmir particularly if we accept the indian claims of aggression we then it's an entirely indian problem to solve yes pakistan made some very very poor choices in supporting various militant groups at a certain point in time especially during the ninety's but other than that blemish the record that backs on hasn't actually there's actually something that as a pakistani i'm proud of i'm proud of the fact that i belong to a country that stands up for people's rights particularly when it comes across need because that's the one place where nobody else is willing to stand up not the british not the americans not the saudis not the iranians not the burmese or the other parties but only the pakistanis let me put the point to dr homer if there's a political scientist at king's college london or throw a book on is the most politics in pakistan do you believe that pakistan's role in kashmir has been a wholly positive one on the support of oppressed peoples at the popular level

there is immense support for that and of course it is an issue that in which the indian government has played a very reprehensible role as well my concern is being and particularly with regard to this or that it that with actually without since they did not question the war on terror narrative since the let the military play out its responses to the war on terror since they actually lead to a militarization of all policy in that in that way they have. i'm doing it on a platter to india because now every time we have a conversation about me india says oh but your country is a terrorist country and you know you need to actually fix terrorism response that very briefly do you believe the pakistani military has no interest in a solution just because along with is going on it gets resources it gets status it gets to control policy do you think the pakistani army is actually in a slightly complicated situation with that because on the one hand they have more to generations of soldiers with the whole question of course meat and independence

because. and at the same time we see that the people of kashmir are not necessarily now looking to join with pakistan anymore let me let me put that specific problem is kashmir is not exactly massive fans of your country poll in two thousand and ten found that only fifty percent of pakistan administered kashmir pakistan or mr kashmir want to be part of pakistan only two percent of the people in indian administered kashmir i would i would be very happy if the people get the choice to choose between india pakistan or in the independence of independence i would be very happy if they choose an independent state all to go with. just they are always that policy that is absolutely the policy that is the right question is india pakistan independent exactly just before i go to clarify for me explain to me is the current position of the pakistani government to have a referendum in kashmir with three questions on the on the ballot paper what i'm saying is pakistan is committed to the people getting the right to truth. that that is. the are completely committed to the united nations security council

doesn't have his emotional stress so i'm wondering if. i'm that's not part of the resolution what i'm saying is that as far as as far as the kashmiri people is concerned your view is absolutely my view and i was here when you were in office as was my view when ok let's go to our audience for being very waiting very patiently here in the oxford union let's go to the lady in just a third on the from here yes your party champions of democracy but feel student substance implemented even within the. on party one but two follows the next you yourself are from a political family how do you expect there to be meaningful change in the country if the people in charge of that change got there because of who they're related to rather than what they've done for the country. i don't think you can single pakistan in that hillary clinton will be following president bill clinton there are many many examples all over the valley and she served as a senator and secretary of state what did bilawal bhutto do before you i'm going to leave you the university student the time yes you know this great town in pakistan

you know his mother is right there so it's. there i know i think i think clearly the fact of the matter is that in pakistan and in all developing countries it doesn't matter where you were born ok i have been born to a privileged background and i will not take that away from the fact that oh yes i believe every step of the way here i got there because i was the daughter of a father was already a politician that is the fact that is the reality how i would be changing that by giving opportunity to more people who are not maybe as privileged as i have been right and institutionalizing those changes for instance in parliament today there are women who are nominated to political parties and many women from middle class background even more middle class background make it to parliament so they can institutionalize those changes so pakistan you know don't judge pakistan for he does today judge pakistan for we're showing just one bill old daughter when he was appointed as to run the party he was a university undergraduate what was your reaction when you heard that news we still

like you were when you had the below no no i was not really shocked not at all i think it was a great leader i thought it was the most unexpected thing to do i'm being honest with you it was the most expected thing to do the pakistan people's party press. them that's a fact ok let's go back to the audience because the gentleman here in the front row hundreds of the muslims in pakistan have been killed simply on grounds of faith whether it's in their mosques their homes or place of business how can pakistan in call kate a culture of tolerance when your own const. to sion and laws explicitly target of the muslims making it a crime punishable by three years present or by death under the blasphemy laws for an embassy to call themselves a muslim isn't it time pakistan repealed these laws and did it state sponsored persecution of these ok i'm embarrassed to be a pakistani when i remember the fact that the vite in our flag represents the right of minorities and guy doesn't mohammad ali jinnah even before august one hundred

forty seven said that you are allowed to go to your mosque you are allowed to go to it is not the business of state he said to question your religion i'm embarrassed that we've done to minorities what we've done in pakistan i will accept it so just to be crystal clear in terms of policy levels things like a pakistani goes to get a passport has to declare that what he is a non muslim that's an outrageous i think that is completely unrequired that's my personal view ok let's go back to the audience judgement here in the second row with losses hi i'm david frum and acts and censorship the pakistani supreme court recently called for reform of the blasphemy laws and we welcome this first step given the way in which the law is used disproportionately against muslims abused to fulfill personal vendettas and in a way that encourages extradition of punishments including killings but isn't it about time that pakistan all together abolished a law that is both counterproductive and really inconsistent with a basic right to free expression freedom of religion liberty of conscience ok can i correct your facts before place on to that it is not disproportionately. bent

towards minorities and i'll give you a simple fact apparently in the period of two years and this is when i was in government of this is like two years back there were about three hundred this under the blasphemy law which were which were put there out of that there were nine or ten which were against minorities in the rest of them were apparently against muslims and there's not a single person within pakistan who has been punished under blasphemy law ok so the blasphemy i'm not going to try and justify blasphemy law with your colleagues were . so your colleagues were murdered yes. to both of them were quote unquote government did nothing yes at that time our government believed that that was not the time to propagate this issue further because they could not get any results or what have you i'm just telling you i feel that in this year in two thousand and fifteen the supreme court judgment on that particular issue it basically indicates the stance to me talk why did you change the law during the sheriff's regime during

which time there was a real effort to try and change the law there was huge resistance against it ok and they don't we don't write that again a reality we need to get pakistan out of this atmosphere of extremist thought and people fighting we created this circumstance or reason and i think this would be a natural step i'm going to take only about you would have a very. genuine question was it because you feared for your life a lot of politicians saw but someone says that time it wasn't feeling for your life as well as much as for us all people being killed no no i'm talking about the musharraf talking about someone to see at that time people were scared for their lives people were being killed running around center everybody was scared for their lives i want to be able to really really get some audience questions back and let's go to a gentleman here i said a question about afghanistan and pakistan have any interest in seeing the democratic afghanistan and do pakistan's leaders have any vested interest in the continuation of the global war on terror i think it's the wrong question to ask i

mean pakistan is probably the country which is the most affected because of instability war and strife in the understand whatever happens in afghanistan within minutes within seconds permits for the borders then entered into our country so we have zero interest in strife in the one in fact let's go back to some western and short runs as a lady here in february two thousand and fifteen general musharraf admitted to guardian during the karzai regime. government government was working against afghanistan. ordered into service intelligence to train the taliban and undermine afghan governments the question is why does controversial policy off love and hatred toward afghanistan i would not believe general musharraf is dumb enough to say something like that on record even if he was doing it so i cannot receive it . villian he is i have i would i just don't more dishonest government no i was clearly not anywhere close to the foreign policy or security blanket every time

there's a difficult question you're either in the room or not in the room the first you let's get you to let me go to let you go yes you would cost you money in payment to us that i met you in two thousand and twelve in islamabad and i asked you three questions afterwards i sigh officers approached me and they asked me why i had asked you this question so i hope this time i workout perch by anyone so my question is you do you sit there and you say that you don't justify civilian deaths but recently. the leader of the taliban afghan taliban has been known to be injured and is being treated in a positive which is in pakistan some blood was found in pakistan. is in pakistan. died in pakistan so how can you justify civilian deaths there are three million afghans who are living in pakistan pakistan has tried very hard to put a biometric system in place pakistan has tried very hard to fence the border pakistan port three one hundred ninety six even if that number three hundred ninety

one border of course to check the movement off at pakistan and afghanistan is and what does one to put one hundred nine border post so we have tried very hard to convince our one friends that it is in our interest both of our interest to ensure that this border is manned properly so you stop blaming us for whatever happens when you say you have the skills to do that thank you we're thinking. ok to the work for something that's affected me and my family a very personal level is the systematic and ongoing genocide against shia muslims in pakistan in july twenty third teen there was an interview where you said that your government had a deep and abiding commitment to find those responsible and to prevent those going forward so can i ask what you specifically have done when you were in government to prevent those attacks. and why those have been so those actions were so unsuccessful because we still see increasing attacks and genocide again i'm not going to justify that that is part of in some with

a related thing to the minorities because we have created this this is the mainstream which is sunni and muslim and everybody else is a minority and some is ok and we feel that what i'm saying is past policies in previous times have created this atmosphere where people are free to get that right that's true policies have done the earth but do we have here is your government between us between twenty eleven and twenty thirty and i believe more than a thousand years were killed in pakistan that was when you were foreign minister what practical steps did you takes ok we're going to protect this minority is being killed you know we were we did try our best to give as much security because that's what you can do these are bad route deep rooted problems which cannot be done away with india's or months or even years you know i believe what is happening in pakistan what started happening in pakistan ten years where you have this huge military fighting all sorts of places being competent to people. of the relentless killing of shias that has gone on for a long time in pakistan has suffered

a massive sort of blow repeatedly over the last six months. and militants and terrorists have been killed and police encounters in pakistan more than once so there's there's no question that there's blowback against those policies but the point is that these these issues are going to take a long time because of let's go to the lady there is waiting there and yes the property. so my question is related to the army's interference in the pakistani government it's a very basic thing when will pakistan be free from interference in governance and become a credible nation for itself for its neighbors and for the rest of the world when pakistan has had longer then it said under constitutional rule pakistan is on its way to the. you need to give this country time i am the first one to accept that pakistan has suffered greatly because of these constant military takeovers our we haven't had to run a constitution because it goes he went into

a decade we're a very very young nation democratically we are tiny be appealing even in the current give us time ok let's take the question here for the children in my name as a religion i'm from baluchistan in a decade over fourteen thousand people have become the victim of inforce disappearance with journalists intellectuals students. bodies being dumped on the roadside and my question is i believe you have to believe that your government was complicit in the atrocities or you have just adopted a silence on those atrocities into such is it when they come into prisons and he announces ceasefire that last for six months so clearly we are complicit in two thousand and ten we give the first broad clemency for anyone who wants to come for dialogue you know i have no reason to doubt what you're saying but sixteen thousand doesn't look like a correct number because the commission that first formed the book it didn't

hundred persons or you know close to that and out of that there were under which were taken to the commission is one hundred eighty seven ok last question. is from india how are you planning to bring peace. considering again that kashmiris just want to be with indoor we just want them to have the right to choose get to move the to agree to that i will get promised in the us three to agree to the same . eighty and perhaps optimistic note depending on which angle you look at it we're going to leave it there in a rabbani khar thank you for joining me on head to head thanks to our panel and audience here in the oxford union head to head will be back next week and we'll be talking about india which i'm sure he will be pleased to hear when we talk about india and head to head next week so do join the program again then good night thank.

you. can the new developments. proceed the. frustration grips the. whole. pot for a six part series. on.

from the clear blue sky of the doe home. to the fresh fruits and breeze in the city of love. alligator welcome back to international weather forecast where across south america we are watching one weather system make its way to the northeast this is bringing the temptress down for cincy on earlier a couple days ago about thirty one degrees which are max high now that's coming down to about one thousand degrees and as that front moves towards rio it could be some showers and the front is going to make those temperatures come down as well once it passes to about twenty nine degrees there up towards the caribbean we are watching some heavier showers here across parts of panama and also to costa rica notice those clouds extending up here to the northwest so those are going to continue over the next few days heavy rain showers up towards nagual as well also rain up here towards savannah we do expect to see thirty one degrees maybe getting up to thirty two as we get to sunday and nasa it's going to be a rainy day for you as well at thirty two well here across north america one weather system is making its way across the great lakes we did see some active

weather and some thunderstorms with this as well that is going to continue towards fronto new york now looking to bet on saturday at twenty six degrees but we do expect to see more clouds maybe the temperatures coming up as well rain showers pushing through and twenty eight degrees but down towards washington we're going to be seeing more increased humidity as well temperatures few thirty one and down towards a little partly cloudy day with a temperature of thirty one. the weather sponsored by qatar and race. for nine hundred forty six to nine hundred fifty eight the united states detonated dozens of atomic bombs in the marshall islands when the u.s. was going ready to clean up and leave and leave one nine hundred seventy s. he picked the pit that had been left by one of the smaller atomic explosions and dumped on a lot of this cutrone and other radioactive waste into the pit the bottom of the

dome it's kermie aboard soil there was nowhere for her to line it and therefore the seawater is is inside the dome when this dome was built there was no factoring in sea level rises caused by climate change now every day when the tide rolls out of radioactive isotopes from underneath the dharm roll well with it. really we're not talking just the marshall islands we're talking before we should. this is al jazeera. hello and welcome to this al-jazeera news hour live from doha i'm martine dennis coming up in the next sixty minutes pope francis says he shares the outrage over

the sexual abuse of children by priests as he makes his first visit to ireland. the ranger refugees in bangladesh raise their voice in protest a year after a military crackdown forced hundreds of thousands for me and. the u.s. says it's causing more than two hundred million dollars in aid for the palestinians . a former rebel leader here bamber is disqualified from running in elections in the democratic republic of congo. repugnant and a source of shame for the catholic community these were the words of pope francis on his first visit to ireland a country that has faced its share of abuse by priests now the pontiff is expected to meet some of the victims later in the day the irish prime minister told the pope

that action must follow words on tackling abuse multiple instances of sexual assault on children by the clergy and subsequent cover ups has turned some people away from the catholic church and for the mental video clips yesterday the failure of a clichy s to call authorities the ship's religious superiors priests and others adequately to address these repellant crimes has rightly given rise to outrage and remains a source of pain and shame for the catholic community i myself share those sentiments. magilla laundries mother and baby homes industrial schools legal adoptions and clerical child abuse are stains on our state's our society and also the church. people kept in dark corners behind closed doors cries for help that went on heard. and these wounds are still open and there is

much to be done to bring about justice and truth and healing for the victims and survivors. let's go live now to our correspondent live barker who's there in the irish capital and needs really strong words moving was coming from alan's first openly gay and known white tee shot prime minister an indication of how much island has changed since the last papal visit. that's absolutely right islanders experience in the past forty years since the visit by john paul the second in nineteen seventy nine seismic changes in society we've seen some of the cornerstone some of the pillars of church doctrine one by one be dismantled in the past it was illegal to have an abortion that was legalized only months ago of course divorce is now legal and so is same sex marriage and leo veronica in many instances when it comes to research referenda recent popular votes

to change the law here has been very much to the forefront of driving social change absolutely critical for him this particular moment to raise all of the concerns of civil society all of the concerns of an increasingly secular irish society and lay them bare before pope francis also vital of course for pope francis to address some of the most pointed criticisms of the catholic church. at this current time of course he arrives there off the back of a huge spiraling scandal over sexual misconduct by clergy in the united states a similar story here in ireland he expressed as we heard there his repugnancy when it comes to those allegations of abuse but perhaps we need to look at what he didn't say and this is what leo veronica had wanted the pope to promise is to blow the lid off what the church knows to open its files to share with states where abuse may have taken place details that could lead to legal prosecutions and inform

porton first step though in building a new future i suppose between church and state but it still clearly has a degree of tension in that relationship indeed and paper francis has impressed many around the world with what appears to be his willingness to confront this issue this issue that is overshadowing his papacy has got to be said and did he say enough to click kate the concerns and and the hurt of many of those who survived the victims of their clerical obese. pope francis i think it's fair to say has perhaps gone further than any other church leader in addressing abuse in the catholic church but many survivors who i've spoken to in the last couple of days here in ireland believe that he needs to go further in accepting that the church historically in his desire to deal with these problems internally has avoided what many people feel was absolutely

necessary to hundreds of people who are subject to allegations to. basically the law for g. processing and potentially convictions internal church documents that i've seen say that dating back to nine hundred seventy five there were thirteen hundred allegations against priests in the eye on the island of ireland they have only been eighty two prosecutions many instances of priests being moved on there are many instances of priests simply retiring or disappearing from the community and if you are a victim for instance of clerical abuse solve some of these individuals to help the healing process it is necessary to know that these people have faced justice that may not be possible in many instances many priests are now no longer alive but it's to know that the law is out there to protect people who have suffered on a great scale and that's what perhaps people wanted pope francis to accept didn't

mitt rather than just believing that it was the church's role to deal with these issues internally. correspondent live in dublin well we've been speaking to derek here here's a historian and a vice president of dublin city university he says it's important to take action that will reinstate faith in the chat. the supporters of victims are calling for justice. i think conservative catholics want to bring the charge back to a kind of a golden age or to make the catholic church great again and i think that for many practicing catholics and believers the holders really that you know we can i suppose. do the right thing about the past what the right steps for security the children for the future. in a sense to rebuild the church here i think the first thing is that this meeting is a global event that's been almost an hour and so the pope will be addressing

a global audience but i think that the business particularly colored by the irish experience in dublin we have a very strong child protection measures in place the manager reporting the supremacy of the civil powers and so on and i think the pope needs to make that statement very clearly for the universal church that will be mandatory reporting to the civil authority is that priests and bishops and cardinals will all be accountable to the law as laypeople are no russian opposition leader election of allie's been arrested outside his home in moscow and around his folks who are said on twitter he's been taken to a local police station the reason various detention is so far unclear he was released in june after spending a month in jail for resisting the police and organizing an unauthorized rally in the valley is one of president putin's most vocal critics and has been repeatedly put behind bars. there's been a year since mia miles military launched

a crackdown leading to what's being called the ethnic cleansing of re-injure hundreds of thousands of people fled to neighboring bangladesh. the refugees there have been holding peaceful protests demanding justice and a safe return to their homes there are now more than seven hundred thousand people living in camps near the border and has become the world's largest refugee settlement bangladesh has signed a deal with me and ma to allow the refugees to go back home but that repatriation process has been stalled mami gentium is in cox's bizarre where he met one resident activist urging fellow refugees to seek justice. speaking passionately to fellow row hinge refugees mohamed el ers is urging this audience to begin demanding their rights hoping his words will connect with the old and break through to the young ultimately inspiring them to seek justice for the

constant persecution he says they faced in me and more. that's why we're raising our voice we want to go back home we want to be citizens of our country who want to live there with safety and security. and the us is a member of the ira conroe him just society for peace and human rights he tells me there is absolutely no excuse for the review not to be recognised as citizens of me and. my own. are mothers and fathers are from the n mar we were also born there but they still made us suffer we didn't get an education they didn't even let us pray at the mosque. one year ago a crackdown by me and more as military and rock and state began a campaign of violence against the ranges that included mass killings sexual violence and arson since then over seven hundred thousand real hinges escaped to

neighboring bangladesh the un called it a textbook example of ethnic cleansing mean mars government however has denied allegations atrocities were committed for the rohingya who fled violence in me and more last august life here was supposed to be temporary but in the past twelve months cox's bazaar has become home to the largest refugee settlement in the world now with each passing day the refugees here worry that their existence here may become permanent nowadays signs of construction are everywhere but as the camp grows so does the frustration living conditions have improved and yet they're still very difficult l.e.o.'s and his family also fled the violence in iraq and stayed in august two thousand and seventeen and had not waited until my children are missing their home they always say they want to go back home his daughter

sharmeen was born while they were all hiding from the military in a forest in me and more she'll turn one in just a few days at least his older children long for a home they no longer have but for his youngest it's a home he fears she may never know mama gentleman dizzee it at the good to belong refugee camp in cox's bizarre on with edge well we've been speaking to definitely cook of save the children and she says an entire generation of rahane children have suffered a terrible a terrible experience. from the outset this is really based on a children's crisis of fifty five percent of the people in this camp a little kids and what we've found is that children again through things that no child should have after experience many children in their parents killed in front of them that had to have a long hard journey so they arrived he was basically nice theories and.