and. you can. see. two of the world's most opaque and secretive organizations have just initialed an historic agreement china's ruling communist party and the vatican have decided to set aside decades of hostility it's significant because china maintains strict control over all religions and they believe has china's roughly twelve million

catholics are divided between a state run association whose clergy are chosen by the government and an unofficial church which swears allegiance to the pope the provisional deals is aimed at resolving the vexed issue over who gets to appoint bishops with the pope insisting he'll have the final say on names this breakthrough could be the beginnings of our approach mall for the first time since diplomatic relations with severed sixty seven years ago while many catholics have welcomed the pact it's been condemned by others including cardinal josephs in the form of bishop of hong kong what's been less discussed though all the secret talks that have been going on three years between chinese and vatican officials. one of those with inside knowledge is francisco c.c. and italian academic and journalist based in beijing he was invited to interview

the pope more than two years ago i sat down with c.c. recently in beijing. francisco you were one of the first journalist to interview the current pope why do you think he wanted to talk to you i think he wanted to talk to you t. . to talk to china i didn't want really to talk to me he wanted to talk to china. it took a long time to. turn the stand how we should year there was a lot of preparation we should give the interview and i think he wanted to talk to the chinese people or else they are not necessarily catherine not necessarily. concerned about the same issues that concern and worry people in the west but he wanted to reach out to the chinese

people why. is jazz writ therefore here is in the tradition of material cheer and china is one big thing and of course china is the new frontier for the catholic church it has been solved for sentries but especially now i would say new frontier in terms of. getting new members old soul but also having i would say a foothold here. china has. you know a systemic differences with with the west in every country has there an embassy here the catholic church for so many reasons has been kept out of china and these pope wants to reach out to have

a foothold here versus interesting so are we looking at the possibility of the vatican the stabber showing a representative office in china rather like the united states did in one hundred seventy two off to richard nixon can you absolutely yes and this could happen. within the zia i would say that. i think it is a possibility we don't know there are of course many things up in the air but there is lob india as some would say. now if that happens the next logical step is the establishment of diplomatic solutions. not necessarily they are talking as far as i know about normalization of ties that is because both sides want to keep taiwan quiet and. not war rate next year there are

very delicate elections in taiwan and nobody wants to rock the boat there but do you think the vatican would rather have diplomatic relations with beijing than taiwan i think this question is right. the vatican is really i think fison or not worried about taiwan per se it is more beijing that is concerned about the stability of the political situation in taiwan is this all leading do you think to to to the prospects maybe of the pope even coming to china i mean this is a year of big political surprises a kim trump summit could we have a pope coming to china it is a possibility here of course we have to see first the normalization of ties and than the pope definitely wants to come here he told you that yes many times yes.

if that were to happen let us imagine for a moment you have the pope and she jinping sitting in a room facing one another they don't have a great deal in common and yet in some ways they do on the one hand you have the pope arguably the most popular figure in the world right now on the other hand you have the man who is arguably the most powerful leader in the world right now what what would they say to each other i think or knowing a little bit a little bit the pope and from the outside looking at c.g. i'm paying i think they're both very humane and they have. they would reach out to one another or nature to main basis in the pulpit is very interested in the people who meet him in looks into them mirror is curious about them is curious about their souls is searching in their eyes and my

face is that sitting ping is all saw in a similar way the same is very. bodily personality but they come from sort of diametrically opposing camps i mean cheating ping is an atheist a hard core authoritarian communist and then we have the pope what on earth do they have to talk about. there is a human element in both of them there is a human curiosity i definitely the pope is curious about us and i'm pretty sure about that and i think also sitting thing has a personal curiosity about the pope who he is what is really looking like. so i would say they have a lot to talk about who reached out to who first and how did it happen was it the

pope who sent the communication to she always the other way around man i think it was the pope first who sad publicly many times he wants to come to china and my sense is see of course responded but something else happened when the pope were both in the united states at the same time and the visit by the pope actually had a profound impact. on xi jinping what what what what was out of it yes i think that was the trigger of all things in two towers in fifteen otten two thousand and fifteen mm they knew in china. knew about the pope knew about the holy see it heard that this holy sea was important but really he didn't understand he didn't feel how important the pope was and how important it he was in the western world and in america saw here it was sitting playing

expecting red carpet aspect in that the whole country the whole united states would melt down to him and forget about everything else and just pay attention to the emperor coming from china and yet they almost forgot about him not top but he was eclipsed it was a clip it was eclipsed by the pope who also all eclipsed the presidential campaign so these two things here clips the pope any clips the presidential campaign which you remember was very fierce between trump and hillary clinton and saw switching can realize these guy is the real deal these guy is the real super soft power and i think that you know that change the perspective he wants some of the. i think you realize that. the leadership realize we speak of sitting we as

the chinese leadership realize that if china is to be disappeared power. the great power in the world must deal with the super soft power the one guy who were clipped the presidential campaign with clips the future president of united states he's more powerful indeed robel imagination than any political leader saw here we are and here we have to the world's most secretive organizations the vatican on the one hand the chinese communist party on the other talking to one another how are they communicating i mean how we had face to face talks between officials from both sides and if so what has been discussed yes they had a series of face to face talks over the past twenty years or saw. officials on both sides meet in beijing and in rome yes this is been reported and

talked to one another and they talk been talking about. normalization of ties there are numbers of issues and they talk about that you you have written extensively about this but also about the. the possibility the prospect the likelihood of the vatican of the chinese communist party doing a deal on the appointment of bishops in china how significant is that to people who perhaps would appreciate the significance outside of china. the deal perhaps even be here then the appointment of the bishops in a way the there was a basic agreement on the appointment of would be show which was reached about a decade ago so now we are speaking or. broader agreement about the life of the church in china and that could be

a massive he story watershed why am i saying so because it for the first time ever in the history of china the chinese emperor whatever you want to call it now or a party secretary or the president allow a foreign presence that is the pope in this case to have a say in the internals of fears of child sweeties massive massive what you could fit with the other way around it's also giving the communist party a say in decisions made by the church isn't it because yes the communist party was still as i understand it correctly if i'm wrong the communist party xi jinping would still have the ultimate say over the appointed officials is a right i wouldn't know if it is the ultimate say i would not say who is the ultimate say because that is. a very delicate but yes of course he he has a say he will have

a say but in this sense this is more. you know historically the church did a lot of these kind of deals in day in needs history the history of the church is about dealing with emperors there was the german emperor the emperor in constantinople the emperor in spain so it has all been dealing with the emperors not paul in whatever whoever. sold the church has an experience as a tradition i would say all dealings with the emperors the difference here is that china didn't have this kind of spirit so. the church comes in with a history for the for the china is a totally new thing we have seen in recent months that to push ups who were

excommunicated by the vatican two to one so-called underground bishops have now been reappointed how unprecedented is the actually this is not really very unprecedented excommunication in the catholic church is a measure used for teaching you know is a kind of warning i warning you that you are committing a serious mistake is a serious sin saw if you repent and regret you will be re-instated and you will be forgiven so again the church has a lot of experience in that. is this arrangement this deal as you suggested going to give the vatican more influence in china but also the communist party a greater say in decision making in the decision making process in a way if i may be blunt and not diplomatic. the communist

party already has a lot of say in whatever the church does in china so you know there is nothing new what is new is that officially the catholic church will have a say in the life of the catholic church in china parallel to the approved catholic church in china we have the the so-called underground church and you know there's been some resistance from from from them there have been suggestions by the former cardinal of hong kong cardinals than that giving the communist party more power over the catholic church is in his words evil and they patrol does he have a point not really i don't think so or why because who decides there are two churches it is the catholic church the catholic church excommunicated the

communist party in the fifty's because they were a taste however does the differences between. underground church and official church has been lifted with the latter of pope benedict in two thousand and seven and therefore the church recognizes there is only one church in china but you're right there are two communities and maybe more than two communities because the rift has been deep there were a lot of huge there is a lot of hatred between catholics coming from different tradition you betray does you didn't betray as you sided with the calm. if you didn't side with the communists and saw it is the task of the church as cardinal parleying say to to try to bring these communities together because these people of the underground churches as you would know see themselves as the true followers i would say to

undergo a community not church doesn't exist what was the distinction because church is the church itself the catholic church that defines a church right why there is an anglican church because the anglicans are out of the catholic church and the catholic church doesn't recognize as a church so it is if the pawpaw recognize you as part of us you are no longer in a different church you see so it is very important distinction one church two communities it is the pope who decides so there is a pope saying there are no underground catholics there are no underground catholics yes there are underground communities communities not church in fact in china there is nothing underground the communist party knows everything nothing is secret in a way what is important is that some in the past in the past

some catholic bishops were appointed by the pope. and not recognize by your fishel beijing government but these is also part of the deal with the vatican so these bishops are being recognized or will be recognized by the government it's all everybody will be of so to speak what about the bishops i gather there are least eight bishops currently hold detained here in china i don't know where you talk where do you take this. other than i don't i don't think there is any bishop detained as far as anyone has links to turned. catholics yes yes detain castle detains possibly some priests detained however i'm not saying that the life of catholic church is glamorous and

that this is the only is wonder for and there is no problem these deals is fraught with problems it has a lot o.-p. shoes but unfortunately a life of catholic church has a lot of problems in many countries someone who's your home has been china for the last thirty years you are an academic you obviously have very good connections with the vatican how do you personally feel about the prospect of this deal i'm personally excited person excited to work term on these for many many years you know i've talked to both sides on on a number. for me of course is a kind also in a small small way a personality meant. do two sides manage to understand one another that is not to say that they agree what the other side stands for all the points made by the other side but at least there is more

understanding by both sides what is curious is that all this is happening at a time when either china is becoming more or for turn we're seeing crackdowns on freedom of speech on religion not just the christian faith but also the islamic faith but why is she jinping making an exception almost an allowance for the for the pope two things first we just mentioned because it is a super soft power so you cannot just ignore this this is a bad game portend international actor and especially when the international atmosphere outside becomes so tense you know you have to deal with this soft power second i will say there is. trust between china and the holy see why i trust because they have been talks for many and talks went quite smoothly so trust is extremely important for china and this is really

important also for the holy see saw the past more one another i wouldn't say totally crossed one of the other but there is more trust i spoke about the resistance that this to you is having in some quarters but what resistance is the pope confronting in the vatican. a lot of resistance and i would say the resistance is. there are two sets of resistance in a way this is a stream really controversial is in places in the cool guy is. his approach to some ethical issues these new brakes some all mall of the catholic church tradition but he's very hard for these conservative i would say to attack the pope on the because he's more so to speak liberal on sexual issues on family issues that the china issue is more

of. you know easier to to to grab and to to use him as a tool against him and what about xi jinping what sort of resistance do you think he is facing if indeed he's facing any resistance or tool from elements within the communist party i think he is facing a lot of resistance there are lots of people concerned because the catholic church is known to be a friend of the west and to have. hidden agendas are and that really a hidden agenda is really to topple the communist party in establishing god and of what but he must have seen you know what happened in poland more than more than thirty years ago when he sees the power of the church could have this potential risk here of the xi jinping is in the yes there is and then there is been talk

about this issue. a lot of talk about it and i think correctly so all the batting and said yes we had an objective role not a subjective role but the issue in poland and in the former soviet union was the. that the system was broken and fraud trial and therefore it brought down however they said we helped. cuba to survive cuba is still a socialist country so there is not an ideological prejudice against communist parties is the pope in danger of giving legitimacy to the chinese communist party. one can say saul there is the danger that what the pope does is not giving or not giving legitimacy to political actors or players is not the poor end of church as long

abandoned the idea of lending its credibility to any emperor being constantine or anybody rather they want to advance the idea of helping the people in every place of the world and also helping peace now it is dangerous times it's risky times there is talk of a new cold war the church wants to our boy if possible the cold war and the pope things can help prevent a third world war. i would say that talking to see chimping could help prevent trampy is about to talk to kim jong un is willing to talk to condone and i would say that your own is by far worse than sit in pain so the pope may as well talk to him pig thank you.

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