spec's to go on trial in turkey we will talk to our guests in a moment but first let's hear more from the president just. washee view. so far the evidence we have shows jamal was murdered brutally such brutality cannot be covered up in any way it would hurt humankind's conscience we would like saudi authorities to show the same sensitivity to this murder german. law she viewed. so far the evidence we have shows just showed she was murdered brutally such brutality cannot be covered up in any way it would hurt humankind's conscience we would like saudi authorities to show the same sensitivity to this murder that. we have strong evidence that this was a premeditated murder in the light of the information we have everybody has questions here are the questions these fifteen people why did they come to the temple on the day of the murder who ordered them to come to turkey we need an

answer why was the building of the consul general not open for investigation on the same day only after so many days why so many credible explanations where is the body of jamal. nobody knows where the body is it is alleged that the body was given to a local cooperate or so who is the local operator we need to know who that is. hardiman i mean. i personally don't doubt the sincerity of the custodian of the two holy mosques king solomon. on the other hand it is very important that such a critical investigation about a murder is carried out by its truly a biased and fair delegation to their connections or charter should we will follow this incident until the end whatever is required by our laws and by international laws we will carry it out in fact i'd like to make a call from here today my call is to first and foremost saudi arabia's king salmon and to senior administration bullies where the incident to therefore my offer you

support these fifteen people plus three people eighteen arrested to be tried to be stamboul. let's bring in our guests joining us from london is gallup delay he's the research director at the istanbul are based off shock for him and a fellow with brookings institution in nutley new jersey we have steven rogers he's a member of the trump for president and vice reboard and a former member of the f.b.i. national joint terrorism task force and also in london we have toby cadman he is an international lawyer welcome to you all let's start with you this was promised to be the naked truth but what we actually seem to get was fully clothed diplomacy was a very strong speech by president of the one demanding answers taking ownership of the intelligence leaks that we've seen over the last eighteen days what did you think of the president's performance. well what was important in this speech is not

what new information that it has revealed it did not reveal any new information to my knowledge but what it has done it gave formality to what thus far has been. the what thus far has been framed as being leaked from anonymous turkish officials so from now on is not an anonymous token official leaking it's the president of turkey is basically owning thus far what has been the to the media so it's important from this for then secondly what i saw in this picture is out of the one being very careful to draw a distinction between the sun one met in sandman and the king king's a man and the sun one met in summer and the saudi arabia and even though he never uttered the words one met in somalia never out of the name of the moment it's a month but everything does for turkey has been provided in one way or another is linking the case to mohammad in somalia south the thirdly that was important is

turkey is trying to get more and more international political support not just public support because thus far the public sport and the public interest the media support in jamal khashoggi case has been very very significant and has been very very commendable but nevertheless there is a still that much political support that will be consequential regarding the. regard and the position of m.b.'s as well too and for this turkey's particle look at the united states or what position that u.s. will take on the fate of the m.b.'s because turkey believes that unless you get to us on board no matter what turkey does the result of its action will not be very consequential regarding the political career of m.b.'s himself so let's bring into our lives when i was you know the question as well as you know the question gathered he also talked about wanting the eighteen people arrested in saudi arabia to be tried in turkey. that seems to be

a deliberate turning up of the heat on saudi arabia put more pressure on them do you think that's right. i think exactly right i think it's not only does it impossible to be trite in turkey he indicated that he can and will go more out of the saudi arabia because he'd he in soon it that is not the does not alter he has and he put some very important question for instance like where is the body who is the local collaborator what is the nature of the relationship of these eighteen people so the question that he paused and he said that remains to be and answered and vault to answer them is very crucial for the evolution of these cases because it's not only who does eighteen people are like these fifteen or eighteen people but what is the measure of the relationship of these eighteen people with the power structure in saudi arabia and when you look at it particularly from the list that we have received thus far a very singular number of them in one way or another has been directly or

indirectly or close to or not that closely related to mohamed bin sandman so the case has a legal foundation which is a legal aspect that will involve these eighteen people etc but then it will have also a political aspect which is who gave the order of the question for us and what a question that he asked is who gave the order if not by what these eighteen people has done but who gave the order i think the court the answer to this who gave the order will take us to the political aspect of this crisis and the responsible of the political responsibility for this crisis because he did utter the word that it is premeditated and political so therefore it cannot be covered up by some rogue element or low ranking officers within the state structure but nevertheless as i said before in order for the turkish action to be consequential i think turkey is very very interested to get the international community on board and turkey does not want to turn this issue into joe paul called bickering between turkey and saudi

arabia and does not want to turn this into a bilateral crisis it let's bring in new jersey here in saudi arabia. stephen rajah stephen i just want to ask you you were the former advisor to the trunk campaign clearly this would have been watched by quite likely be much by president all of trump how do you think he's feeling right now what do you think this is going through the u.s. president's mind when he was watching the one speech. well he's been very prudent in his approach towards this issue he has consistently stated that he wants irrefutable evidence from the turkish government or from anyone for that matter that this was a planned execution what's going through his mind is a he wants to see justice served he's a president that those do the right thing but he's also concerned about the impact that this could have on our relationship with cider rev arabia especially with regard to our own national security and the many many jobs the economic impact it

could have with regard to jobs here in the united states in relation to arm sales i believe in his heart he knows that the this was a terrible terrible incident shouldn't ever happened and he really wants to get to the bottom of the truth this is why he sent secretary pompei oh so the regent this is why the cia director is getting information as we speak at the end of the day i must tell you a lot of people are scratching their heads with regard to the original story that the sides gave everyone on this planet first they denied any they happened then they said something happened they could have went rogue i mean you cannot expect people to believe several stories so the site isn't going to have to come clean just just tell the truth will happen it'll be up to them to clean up their own mess and their own country gina hospital the cia director as you mentioned is

a key what conversations as she having will messages she brought an issue bring with her the ability to be able to start investing u.s. led investigation or is this simply a political visit. well i believe that it's a good question to begin with she wants to get down to the truth we're going to have to know what turkey has the president of turkey didn't offer anything new as far as i can see he offered up information that we already had but as your prior guest said it kind of plugs those leaks it's an official statement from the president of turkey but she's going to come back i'm sure as secretary pompei all came back with the information that they need that the president needs to make a decision with regard to that to how he will respond to this now your question about it will it be a u.s. led investigation i don't know i don't know i i would suppose that it would be best

for turkey and saudi arabia to work with each other to get to the answers to the questions that they need but the united states has as the president said is not the policeman of the world is not the president of the world he's the president of the united states and he's looking out for our best interest and hopefully we're going to see a conclusion based on evidence i want to underscore the word based on facts and evidence so that everyone will be satisfied gallop i want to bring you hey before we get into international law with toby cadman in london i want to bring you had you just heard what steven rogers just said he wants to get to the truth to the bottom of all of this does he want to get to the truth and the bottom of all of this or is this scrambling now to save the relationship between saudi arabia and turkey because money talks. well unfortunately the trunk that ministration trying him to have gave quite a. contrast thing answer starts far to the questions if you want to get the

evidence or if you want to get the truth i think it's should not be that hard and i'm sure the turkish security establishment and intelligence establishment will more or less share many things with their us counterparts if they haven't bombs fall upon till now so in this regard i don't i wouldn't i don't expect many trouble in the united states given evidences and turkey has all interest to provide the united states with evidences because it wants to get us on to what as well true or in this crisis yes. she was not a u.s. citizen but he was a u.s. resident as far as i know according to u.s. law he can be regarded as a us person is the other is a u.s. citizen he was writing for a washington post so therefore like turkey has all the interest as i said like to get the u.s. on board in this matter let me bring in tony had been here a long time here you're an international lawyer you clearly understand the way this

all works this is an almost a unique case this was a murder that took place in saudi sovereign territory the consulate in istanbul yet the president of turkey says he wants those people tried in istanbul is there precedent for this what's the what it what shape does any trial in turkey take look like and can it happen indeed. well it raises number of questions. first of all the question of whether a concert of mission has the same status as a full diplomatic mission or an embassy. and the question of sovereignty is something which has been tried and tested in a number of cases so it's not a question of absolute immunity we also have a situation where a crime has occurred in the in the culture mission which is covered by the vienna

convention on on consular relations which is different to the vienna convention on diplomatic relations but you also have part of the crime being carried out side of the protection of that consul mission of course and as the last guest has said what we have what we need to rely on is credible evidence as to exactly what happened but it is entirely within its rights to to investigate and prosecute this before the domestic courts they are entirely intitled to to seek the extradition of these eighteen individuals and potentially mohamed bin sentiment as well and obviously they'll be a question of whether he is covered by any form of diplomatic immunity to stand trial what we could see is if the saudis refuse to cooperate in any form. then the united states or turkey could effectively take this to the international court of justice seeking effect of

a declaration that the cider authorities should i the prosecutor or extradite we saw that some time ago in the case of. what are cases being brought by belgium a consent to go for for a former dictator to be to be tried and effectively he was so there are a number of questions that need to be sued and also as far as the the diplomatic relations is concerned we should. the turkish authorities were invited into the. into the consul mission so the question is whether they can the saudis can know for barak on a position of diplomatic immunity remains unclear to me that he was about to saw us for is that they seem to be two sides of this you have the legal. way of working and what is the what is effectively the legal framework for any potential trial but there's also the court of public opinion here has president or the one by taking ownership of all of the leaks all the of come out in last eight hundred days meant

that he's actually blown away the saudi narrative out of the water that nobody's taking that with any kind of seriousness a toll. yes i think that's right and as the previous guest in new jersey quite rightly stated that in situations such as this it's the cover up which is a bigger issue than the act itself and the fact the saudis came out with a number of different positions fundamentally undermines their position and i think there is some criticism to be made of president trump as well for for initially accepting the saudi. position without looking into further course he said he wanted to see evidence and that's positions taken. and of course he will reserve his position going forward but i think that the position that has now been set up by by turkey three presidents speech very very clearly states that the

response by by the saudis is uncredible and as a result of that there is no confidence in allowing the saudis to investigate prosecute this themselves because let's bring in stephen what he said to do is bring in steve rogers hey you had toby there say that president the u.s. president donald trump could be criticized for believing the saudi version of events if it's proved beyond doubt that the crown prince was indeed involved in this doesn't that cost doubts over both the u.s. president donald trump and his cozy relationship with mohammed bin salon and his son in those relationships with the crown prince mohammed bin salon haven't they just picked bad friends and allowed them to indulge their saudi friends to the point where something like this may have been. done at the highest levels been this was at the it has proved with them that it was done at the highest levels. i don't think the president took the saudi side i think he took the side of trying to

ensure that we received all of the evidence necessary to draw a conclusion that is based on facts not on evidence he certainly made it clear that a person is innocent until proven guilty not the other way around so the course of action he took was very prudent very careful and we have not had a whole he said if somebody went over and if you have a gun as we say he was it's not but craig well i've got to tell you i sed. well well i've spent my good part of my life in law enforcement and investigating cases and the the initial response of the saudis was all we had to go on and there was some credibility i must tell you based on. the framework that we work with in law enforcement and i would not have jumped the gun i would have done what the president did but i certainly something in your head that i had the same thing i

had that why you shaking your head at what stephen lodges in new jersey. with with all due respect the manner. i've spent my time as as a lawyer prosecutor worked very closely with law enforcement and i completely agree with the point stephen says that you do not jump to conclusions you do not judge a case of course there is a presumption of innocence and of course the evidence has not has to be challenged in a court of law not in the court of public opinion i understand that entirely but what president trump said was that he found the saudi position credible now that's what he can be criticized for not what he said subsequently what he said subsequently was measured and appropriate what he said nischelle it was that he found it credible no that account has subsequently shown to be lacking in any credibility but my position is that the person present trum jumped to to the

defense of the saudis by saying the position is quite what everyone else was saying it is lacking any credibility that's where i think president trump can be criticized but i think we have to see and we have to judge president trump and his administration on what he does from this position on we've already seen a number of other countries u.k. france and germany that have strongly criticized that are reassessing their relationship with the saudis and they should because this is not the only problem that we are facing from the saudis that their record on human rights certainly since may have been someone who's been in power is appalling there is again let's there's bring in stephen here because of because that's a very interesting comment from the state which is there in nutley new jersey you've heard what had me just had to say he just said.