still causes problems in somalia there are going to be people roaming around the middle east screaming that there are members of isis because it's what one does who are probably entry trouble but it's not it i don't think is even a major problem there overall and certainly far far worse than it was earlier when they control these and when they're able to actually do these massacres that you talked about i'm going to disagree with that a couple of them have to get out so the reason i disagree is a lot of the foreign fighters that have left iraq and syria have gone to places like libya they've gone to southeast asia they've gone to pakistan and afghanistan and so the idea that these are not actual threats to the governments i disagree having spent time in pakistan having traveled through these areas talking to people who are former members of terrorist organizations this is an actual threat to some governments but he's right not to the american government you know you used the phrase earlier of what kabul is not part of the problem that if you've got this organization that can just pop up because it's an ideology is about as it is a physical group in different parts of the world when you when you bomb them here

they go somewhere else where does that leave the overall strategy well it definitely resonates when the local government is corrupt and when people are feeling aggrieved then it starts to have all of these global politics be very locally relevant and that's where it becomes problematic so that the isis fighters go in but they link up with local groups who have local grievances and many of these governments are very imperfect and this is where it resonates and they become very popular with the rank and file were not a joiner suggesting that even in the middle east the threat could be seen as overblown in parts that they're not a threat to a lot of governments is that your view. i think very clearly isis you know the organization has had a massive threaten a massive has had massive consequences on the populations in syria and iraq particularly but elsewhere in the middle east i mean having spent time over the years in iraq it's been devastating and it's been a very dark time in the history of the country and you have many families and many

people affected by the organization including the governments of these countries that are still unable to kind of rebuild so how do you think for example western governments which are trying to formulate their own security strategies their own policies in the middle east how should they now be reacting in this new environment when i solute been physically removed from the scene in iraq in syria but as you say it still poses a threat what would you be saying to governments of the u.k. and from the united states about their position on i still in the middle east at least i mean you know we get this question all the time and there are many different governments that are you know trying to figure out what to do very clearly what's happened is now that the territorial victory has has been made now the military solution has been achieved there's almost like ok well let's pack up and go home and that's exactly what happened in two thousand and six seven eight when at the time it was then iraq and there's a logic state of iraq or only to have to come back again a few years later because the actual solution didn't include some of the more

political and societal socio economic solutions so if my recommendation would be if you want to fight so although you want to really get rid of this organization isn't there is a there's a slight contradiction to really talk about root causes and nina symptoms versus disease and you say corruption and you say you know misgovernance and we know about sectarianism in iraq but you say come back a few years later some would argue the ice is all tied in iraq a response to the u.s. occupation in the first place. to some extent i mean to question the earlier years but certainly in two thousand and fourteen it wasn't a direct response to american invasion what it was was a direct response to the failure of the state to rebuild itself in two thousand and two so the point i was trying to make was if you really want to combat isis it's about building these states you know it's about corruption it's about governance it's about letting the people in or most or fluids or the other know that there is something there an institution that can represent them and that can respond to the

if that is a very briefly we're not we know we need or we are in iraq from your perspective we need a point in law no we're not we we are close because no one's focusing on it. let me ask you this me i mentioned earlier foreign fighters and a number of people who went into iraq in syria from around the world to fight a lot of those people have left to go to other war zones quote unquote but a lot of those also come home to denmark to the u.k. to the united states canada is there a threat posed by those people actually what we have we have a couple of hundred who came back and they are currently in jail in france and they do you know present a big stress. there are another couple of hundred who have currently detained under soon in syria mostly known as in syria and these people will have to be taken care of. for me people as

a bigger risk at the moment is the people who have been prevented from joining and he says because these people had been arrested like a couple of years ago they had been arrested it was very loot charges just for a project of travel and these people are not disappointed about this because the people who are left as though. richen is all of them somehow disappointed by what they have experience with p.f. caliphate the posers those who have been arrested. there. and these people have a dream of a caliphate and they have been prevented from this dream and these people have a lot of rage do you believe there's a threat to western countries from quote unquote returning no i think it's not there. the according to multiple reports in two thousand and sixteen after the

returning a tax on. brussels and in paris there are continuous reports coming from the police as well as defectors that there are hundreds of people already they are in europe waiting for orders to take take take action now none of these guys have shown up in the last two years so that means either they didn't exist over there and they're just watching pornography needing pizza or they are they going on to other pursuits so it is another time to show you are an entire book on the subject for having several books several of the books of a blue which catches the imagination that phrase overblown what is pushing about a little bit what you said ok why would western governments want to overblow a terrorist or why would they behave in an alarmist fashion to have a duty of care to their citizens is basically bottom up done a recent report of the cato institute on public opinion united states and at its height when they asked people do you think isis presents a serious threat to the survival or existence of the united states seventy seven

percent of the people who had been following this story said yes and fifty percent of that seventy seven percent said strongly feel that way so this is what happens if you're a politician you have to give in to the whims of the of the masses and so this money has been frittered away basically on a threat that basically in any reasonable sense assumed he doesn't exist overall and there has been the media pushing the whole story so that it used to be. if there was an attack the media would wait to ascertain what what the nature of the attack is now we start with the presumption of terrorism and then crawling back when we find out that it isn't terrorism we find out so what do we find out if the why do we stop it is not terrorism don't use the word rid of let me ask you this in iraq when you're on the ground in iraq which iraqis do they do they feel as if you know what i mean you mentioned to talk about you know people moving. do they feel as if they've been forgotten or ignored in some way in this whole debate about

terrorism which is very western centric while it's. you say it is worse than centric i mean terrorism for iraq means something completely different or heard here than it does to an american because if you want to talk about terrorist sort of numbers many iraqis and syrians have been killed it is a very real threat to the to their lives and to their say being livelihood and safety in their countries so but iraqis have to some extent they understand the threat there certainly the syrians are also happy that you know there's no longer this islamic state caliphate or iran iraq and more so i mean there is a sense of joy that we've gone over as i mentioned a dark part of the country as histories but there's also a sense of disillusionment and a sense of fear that they've been here before me let me ask you this is there a danger that. over focusing on our soul we've lost track of other groups which also carry out all sorts of violence atrocities around the world john mentioned earlier you know in parts of africa and in kenya you've got al shabaab in nigeria

you've got book or are there other groups in syria itself apart from most of the plenty of other violent and quote unquote extremist groups is there a danger that the focus of iceland whether it's up or down destructions from other violent actors in other parts of the world so there's two things the first is that with the focus on jihadi terrorism he united states and the government on the whole that agencies have completely ignored the rise of the extreme right to demand their domestic terrorists that our purpose. rated so that in the statistics i gave you before of the sixty five attacks and twenty seventeen thirty seven were extremely right wing it was white the majority but also if you look at the pew and the a.c.l.u. and other data that's come out from new america foundation since nine eleven seventy one percent of the terrorist attacks have been from extreme right wing with twenty six percent being jihadi so we have over focused on one thing and ignore the other but there's a second part to it which draws from what you were saying about trump i worry about

europe in the united states with the rise of this rhetoric anti immigration anti muslim anti immigrant rhetoric we are we are laying a foundation for people to be so alienated and outraged that when there is a isis two point zero or some new manifestation people will start to feel that what their message is it's resonating because they've been alienated and treated so badly we shouldn't do that to worry about i says to put not very much no i think it's the dying and unlikely to be revived even isis course was not really it was really revived by incredibly bad polls in the milwaukee government in iraq going after sunni's and so forth you mentioned by the way earlier on about the issue about the americans helping or the west helping american foreign policy in the middle east has been an abject failure for this whole bloody century and the whole idea that they know how to do anything correct in iraq or any other countries including syria is ludicrous it seems to me so let me let's are you going up on the

guys who created the problem in two thousand and three to try to solve it is a literature so let me pick up on the before we finish and ask a broader question about the west as a whole is it fair to say that you all agree with the idea that the quote unquote war on terror how is it being a success because a lot of people in the street would say your cause is really a failure and yet you see government leaders doubling down on the same policies run out there first i think i mean it's a good point i think people are so. focused on the short term and they're so focused on the minute details of you know what's the organization who are the fighters how many are there numbers that they kind of lose truck at the greater picture right i mean even the question of is there going to be an i says to cornell it's the same organization as existed as i said for decades so it's there's a bit of sort termism that you see in governments especially in the west where you have different cycles and also and think tanks and others that leads us to not actually get the opportunity to sit back and reflect and say you know is this the right strategy nicholas do you feel you do it your message in from is well heard

people in power are receptive to what you'll saying about terrorism. it's not obvious because there is of course some political pressure but i'm struggling to send this kind of messages and but i'm personally afraid not of an. zero but have an a as treated zero because for me is already the a. zero because the original as was founded in two thousand and six and almost defeated it four years later ok meir what do you think we've got this statistic that i came across. that in two thousand and one one in five conflicts in the middle east all of africa in the style of quote unquote violent extremist element today it's three out of four conflicts in that part of the world have a violent extremist element to the language of the report that's a dismal failure for governments across the world in terms of fighting quote

unquote violent extremism is it not it is and the problem has been that because the american foreign policy has relied almost exclusively on military solutions that in many ways where there is drones in pakistan or boots on the ground in iraq they have definitely exacerbated the situation and it is been almost the the flame for which all of the mosques have congregated and been attracted to areas. as to fight the americans that is a great rallying cry and the problem is going to be whether or not this kind of ideology continues to be the inspiring north star so we have to we have to be very . saying line about how we approach foreign policy but what we've seen in the last two years has certainly not helped moving the embassy was not a good idea to where the u.s. embassy and that was a terrible idea and so i think that this kind of approach is going to continue to cause other problems and reverberate throughout the middle east. you've written on

this issue say for many years you've been trying to get your message through about the scale of the threat do you believe now that the fold in attacks in places like north america in the west from groups like i saw will help you get your message through to the public or to policymakers are you optimistic that people will now start to go you know what maybe we did that threat. and i doubt it and sort of very frustrated i've been trying a long time basing the media never talks about this that to sixty never say there were more people killed by terrorists in the seventy's or eighty's and there are now that should be in every story they never see basically there are six people killed per year and so the question is is it worth it so you can say that's a success it's only six it could be twelve is it worth spending a trillion dollars more than a trillion dollars of domestic homeland security in order to to reduce that number by that by that small amount on that note we'll have to leave it there joe we'll nicholas thank you all for joining me on the show up probably about next week.

on counting the cost breaking the rules italy wants to spend its way out of an economic slump but it's up to its eyes in debt big cryptocurrency and a rock star c.e.o. . not counting the cost on al-jazeera. over one hundred years ago britain and france made a secret deal to divide the middle east between them now we can durham in the second episode we explore the lasting effects of this agreement that there is a regional set to pico it's at those borders were drawn with consulting the people

who have to live with the. site speak old lines in the sun. because we're not just spending as we should. writes i've been finding it. and see to be stripped away. on the seventieth anniversary of. the whites let's stand up. stand up for human rights. as search is underway at a villa outside istanbul as part of the investigation into the murder of saudi journalist jamal khashoggi.

you're watching al-jazeera live from my headquarters in doha i'm fully back also ahead a presidential pardon for a british academic who had been sentenced to life in prison in the u.a.e. . and. tensions in the black sea after russia seizes three ukrainian ships me a crimea kiev calls it an act of aggression and chaos and arrests at the us mexico border as people try to force their way into the united states. right. now but. the. turkish police investigating the murder of jamal house in the saudi consulate in istanbul have begun searching a villa in yeah

a town almost one hundred kilometers outside the city the journalist remains have not been located since he was killed almost two months ago let's go straight to mana dreidels outside the saudi consulate in istanbul where jamal khashoggi was killed what are you hearing about this search mohammed what are they looking for. yes for this since day one after the marriage the police have never stopped the search for the remains of. dunn on the today we understand that they have renewed interest in that villa but. outside this onboard actually about ninety kilometers from here on the sea of marmara they have indications that the man who owns that had received a phone call from a saudi official on october first one day before the killing of samantha they have not given any names particularly the name of that man who received the call and

also there have been information about a farm that's owned in that area near that place owned by a turkish man who is a close friend to a saudi prince so they have the indications they talked about some of them in the past right after the killing of him out i should say but now there is a new will of interest in that and it seems they have in new fresh information that probably some of the remains of if not all his body have been probably carry it to that place police here in turkey have been searching several places including in istanbul itself and also in that area but then there was a time when there was no particular information confirming that anything could be found in one of those places and there have been even talk here among the government officials that there is a probability that either the whole body was taken back to saudi arabia or all parts of it there have been information that probably the head of so much of she was carried by those men in one of those diplomatic bags to saudi arabia all of

that is still under investigation now to keep a lot of hope in terms of the investigation on the discovery of the body or parts of the body of so much and you understand that his body was was cut into pieces. which makes it probably very unlikely to find it in one place and those information that probably it has been dissolved with chemicals somewhere or so turkey is still interested in digging deeper and searching deeper inside the home of the saudi cause of here because even though they were given access to investigate inside his home they were not given access to really fully investigate inside a will inside his home and there are probabilities according to security sources here that some of the remains that were dissolved are probably dumped inside but well quite a gruesome killing quite gruesome details said thank you very much mom involved for

bringing us the latest on the murder investigation and in other news out of turkey we understand that four turkish soldiers have died after their military helicopter crashed in central istanbul this monday one person was injured local reports say the aircraft came down in a residential area on the asian side of the city the united arab emirates has pardoned the british academic who was jailed for life last week for spying the presidential pardon is part of a mass clemency of prisoners to mark the u.a.s. national day matthew had just said he was only researching the u.s. security strategy for his ph d. the british government denied he was a member of its intelligence agency will have more on this story and reaction from london later the president of the u.a.e. his highness you. may god bless him yesterday has granted gracious

to seven hundred eighty five prisoners across the u.a.e. to more of the forty seventh anniversary of this great nation and response. drew a letter from the forward in response to the letter from a family of mr hedges requesting clemency and in consideration of the historical relationship and close ties between the united arab emirates and the united kingdom his highness has decided to include mr matthew urges among the seven hundred eighty five prisoners released mr hedges will be permitted to leave the country once all the formalities are complete think you very much again will be speaking to al-jazeera in london a little later for reaction on much matthew had just gotten in the u.a.e. moving on to other world news and russia has reopened a straight in the black sea that is at the center of a confrontation between moscow and ukraine this latest tension was sponsored in the case to raise the shipping channel conic connecting the black sea with the sea or

as of ships use this straight to supply the ukrainian and industrial city of mariupol on sunday russia use an oil tanker to brock three ukrainian tugs entering the strait one of the tugs was rammed by a russian naval vessel shots were fired and the ship's impounded several ukrainian sailors were wounded and at least twenty taken prisoner at the emergency u.n. security council meeting is scheduled in the coming hours to discuss this incident and ukraine's president plans to ask his parliament to take action. martial law is introduced in order to strengthen ukraine's defense capabilities amid increasing aggression and according to international law duty called act of aggression by the russian federation martial law does not mean our refusal to resolve the issue of liberating ukrainian territory by political and diplomatic means we have intentions to keep a hearing to all international obligations including the minsk agreement let's make

sure each islands in moscow for us for the latest russia has reopened the current straits well this help ease the tensions. i think that certainly in attempts to bring the temperature down a little bit the straits have been blocked with a large tanker positioned underneath the bridge on sunday and that have prevented any shipping passing from the black sea to the as we'll see all the i will see back to the black sea and had essentially kind of set in motion a chain of events that led to the far end of russian ships on ukrainian ships the impounding of ukrainian vessels the injuries suffered by several ukrainian personnel military personnel so it seems if russia is trying to dial things down a bit but the damage has already been done nothing in

terms of obviously physical damage to the ships and injuries sustained but also diplomatically this is the most significant flare up in tensions between russia and ukraine for several years you have to go back to the dark days of two thousand and fourteen the annexation of crimea in two thousand and fifteen the high points of the the war in eastern ukraine to find anything similar so we are waiting i think for international response as you said the u.n. security council is due to be discussing this later in an emergency so yes the immediate sort of kinetic phase of this may have quietened down but there is still more of it to play out yet and the ukrainian president petro poroshenko wants to declare martial law now what would that mean what does martial law mean the ukrainian context and why would president poroshenko want to do this now over an incident in the black sea. well it's

a good question because you know even in two thousand and fourteen when things were bad direst ukraine didn't impose martial law so that it is choosing to do so now or at least proposing to do so now is raising questions pressure poroshenko has approval ratings are pretty low and of course russia is jumping on this as a reason for why he might be pushing this course of action as a way of kind of you know boosting domestic popularity and shaking things up at home that's what the russian politicians are saying at the moment what it means in real terms is basically that for sixty days at least there would be you know military control over there is aspects of ukrainian political life there won't be he says a mass mobilization of forces although ukrainian military is on full combat

readiness of readiness alerts at the moment. he says it wouldn't affect the conflict was going on in eastern ukraine and ukraine would not do anything offensive he is basically saying that this is a defensive measure to protect the country against what it says are aggressive actions coming from russia thank you for that really chalons live for us in moscow are we turning now to the breaking news story out of the united arab emirates where british academic matthew hedges who had been sentenced to life in prison for spying has been granted a presidential pardon let's speak to lawrence lee correspondent in london laurence this case had threatened to damage relations between the u.a.e. and the u.k. tell us about the reactions to this pardon. well i mean obviously it's a success and triumph for the for the british foreign office which. had claimed you know from the very start that the idea that matthew hedges was

a spy was complete rubbish. and that the charges against him were completely made up you know i mean whenever someone's arrest in a country let's say russia and accused of spying and they are a spy the british don't ever deny it's an plainly this man was of an academic he was a derm university in the north of england got over there to some academic research quite openly been asking questions about what he was doing and it appears the british view is at least as somebody probably in the middle of government somewhere with with a grudge and no better reason than that decided to make an example out of him and to be jailed for life at a moment's notice in what appears to have been a kangaroo courts. the british government extremely substantially and so they put very great diplomatic pressure on the u.a.e. using the strongest language capability that diplomats can use to say to them you need to do something about this and what i think the u.a.e. have done to try to make the best out of it big.