maybe more to it than that and so i really think that one has to begin thinking about. some sort of interventions at the at the public house level because we may be at the start of something that could be quite damaging to young people in the same way that. correlating cigarette smoking and lung cancer long before because of the case let me jump in and stop you there because we do we will you're absolutely right we need to talk about policy implications of this but before we get into that i want to pick apart some more points from this study and bring amy's perspective into it why do you think amy and girls who use social media showing a higher correlation or link with depression than boys. i think that our finding that girls are more or have a high correlation between them and hug and especially the users quite consistent

throughout the literature i want to go back to what that has not what we are looking at here are really our correlations and while we find these small negative correlations. with various of these datasets have matter now been analyzed what we do find is that these correlations are extremely extremely small so even though they're significant it's quite easy to get a sort of statistical significance in these data sets because they're extremely large they have the real talent to find very very small facts but with this power comes a kind of question to ask the scientists as to whether are these are these relations actually in the courtrooms and the study is in two thousand and seventeen that you also mentioned we know that yes while girls are more affected by social media and boys still ninety nine point six percent of them and can't be predicted by us no

matter how much they actually get use that anything only one percent of their wellbeing is predicted by the social media eighty s. which again makes us really question are we really focusing our attention on the right name by discussing so much about social media and in mental health once we know that other things that affect a child's life have a much higher. in. the predictive value they add if i know how much it's how sleep how well a child eats or how caring the parents are i can predict a lot more about how good it will be feeling so are you saying i mean we could be actually be getting distracted by looking at studies like this than focusing more probably are the real causes of depression and mental health issues i think this debate is dry. now really complicated and complex conversation that we do need to have so because there are correlations we don't i what the cool relationship is

recent research in the us found that disadvantaged children are up to use technology attitude to three hours movement day we also know that this is not a children's you know what so we're naturally going to find negative correlations between technologies and marni en route but the it is that we analyze i'm not surprised what i want to ask of the scientists is do you want should we be. investing so much money into cosy teacher interventions because sochi large staffs and such money spent really need more dramatic evidence backing up and personally i think that large not evidence does not yet exist in the current research that's a really interesting point i want to keep it going between both of us scientists and academics but before we do that like to bring into we say the user perspective in all of this and stella you have been the patient you've had the challenges with depression tell us from shall we say user's perspective what role can or does

social media exposure to social media have on where ian person is mentally i think it really depends and i think at the fence on how you use social media so for myself so it is for myself it's been both beneficial and harmful that the family depended on the platforms i've been using and the people i've been interact with so i've met lots of friends for socially as your i've really good friendships which has really helped over the years equally i fit top lots of of sort. that i do shall we say from social media and if i surround myself with people who have been equally sort of on well then that's the fanie been more harmful than anything at some point so yes do you see a pattern though when you look at exposure particularly for young ladies or we say

girls and the lessons teenagers do you see a pattern in the way that perhaps the types of social media they're exposed to people that they associate with. i think i think. i'm not sure about other people i can only really talk about myself but definite for myself when i've been in a bad place mentally i forty spent more time on social media which means i've been sort of surrounded with the good and the bad aspects special in a very good place then it's quite easy to latch on to the more harmful aspects of social media running with people who perhaps in an even worse place than you or and just as bad a place. i thing. even sort of stepping away from that and just general social media use i've definitely found that if i'm just going for facebook and you know everything's fine i'm staying in bed and i'm just working up in the morning it's really easy i find it really easy to little are people doing and compare myself to them so i think our look look how well this person is doing in their life or look

at all this core stuff they're getting up to and i'm doing i'm laying in bed and doing absolutely nothing with my life and i think it's really easy even if you sort of take the mental health specific stuff away i think it's still really easy just day today to get really sucked in social media that's not to say i was not really good this in social media it's not say that it can be really useful. to have any platforms that have been incredibly beneficial to me and my mental how generally far do you think that as i said pens how you're using social media and sometimes it's really hard to see when you're in the midst of it how you're using social media and to see that actually it's negative i think that's something you can only really see when you take a step back and you sort of. have a little think about it that makes sense yeah it does and that's an interesting point which i want to take back to amy and perhaps. i want to challenge your thinking there but you know when you said earlier about there may be other factors about you know how well the child may be eating more or not less and eating or

sleeping and so on is there a difference when we talk about social media because it does as stella pointed out seem like him. it sucks people in a way that you know your regular food or other factors don't necessarily do this becomes your whole life you you you exist in a make believe world but you can't get out of mentally i think stone made two really important points so the first is this diversity that social media and also to talk about screen time is incredibly diverse. and looking at it on instagram will naturally have different of that scrolling through your news feed or chatting to. grandparents and so this is again make it really hard pressed to figure out what is actually happening because while one might be very beneficial another might be harmful i'm not going to go against that but i think what is really important press is to recognize diversity and that often were lumping things together when

we're comparing apples to oranges and was that was does recognize is that there are different ways in which this relationship between mental health and social media is can take place not one hand you might experience in changes after using social media but imagine it also so uncertain feelings might drive you to use more social media as well so we could be looking at flight rules and remember the mathematical models that we use to. look at these relationships we can't tear apart and and dissociate is different maybe a feeling more down leading to more session musician least leading to feeling down and so we see this immense complexity which should make this really exciting to work on as well let me take that point back to death the idea that on some level that this kind of research can be masking a lot of factors and making us jump to

a lot of assumptions that could be a bit destructive rather than helpful or do you think of a sudden there should not. jump in the conclusions prematurely and i totally agree about the pression as a multifactorial disorder and of course one should not assume that social media use is the only cause or even a major cause of depression it's a much more complex disorder than that. now having so saddle this and having also recognized stella's points that social media use could be about beneficial and harmful for young people i have to say about. all the time as b. have more and more evidence more and more studies of it are correlational they are not establishing causality but just the volume of these studies and also of the

dose response relationships that they see and also these differences in boys and girls which are really quite interesting. and also another important point here is that earlier this year we had a very large survey of child mental health in the u.k. which. replicated the findings of about fifteen years ago and what it found was that the vast majority of disorders that young people have have not increased so things like autism eighty h.t. . o.c.d. and things of that nature really have not changed at all but what has increased very very substantially was emotional disorders like and desires and depression in all the girls in all the teenage girls. and also self harm increased very substantially in all the girls to. and that is not an artifact it's

a real thing it's something that is is something that actually rarely happens that you can actually see in doing do the way studies say actual dance pretty clear in the pin it to use of the internet or social media dennis no again it's a it's more an association of it so so the association is there but my point is that the prevalence the number of children of us emotional disorders has increased in our population very substantially especially especially the older girls and that's something that we have not seen before and of course one minds hypothesize in many different ways well why is that but one thing that occurred at the same time is of course the exponential increase in social media use and the internet use in general now i think everybody world will agree here that social media are actually addictive there is plenty of evidence to say that and

they are designed to be addictive as well. oh you know the only of course addicts let me take that point back to stella do you agree with that do you feel as a young person stella the social media sometimes is designed to target young people in a very addictive manner yeah definitely if i think about my social media is now and if i was to think about. getting rid of all my social media i could probably do it but i probably wouldn't be happy doing it and i would probably struggle so yeah i say it is addictive to an extent. what do you think should who do you think should perhaps monitor that or regulate that steno what would you be happy with the suggestions in this study from sample that say the industry should step in or should it be families or what how do you see how would you take to someone else telling you what you should do and be exposed to. so i would be

hesitant for that to happen i i i've had people talk to me about my social media use not in recent years but when i was younger say when i was my early teens and quiet and while i find it really offensive i didn't really take on board. and if anything it sort of brought me up for a way and i was like well i'm just not going to talk about my social media is that if you're just going to tell me to stop so. i don't think it should be the role of industry or parents or anyone to read or not even have any difficulty because i mean to an extent yes i think having the conversation is important so i definitely think that people should be having a conversation whether that is you know school staff parents mental health professionals who ever is if work is the conversation should be had so how we using our social media is it helping you you know. talking about the relationships that you're building people on social media i think that should definitely happen.

whenever a lost someone should step in and try to take control of our i think that's a different question it's about supporting and empowering young people to. use it in ways that you know more constructive as opposed to just saying car is it or you can use it like that just you know delete your instagram something that makes sense i think it's it has become labrat if it's post done today or a let me take those sentiments to amy and say amy with your position being that perhaps where you know when studies like this when we run the risk of maybe making too many premature conclusions do you feel that the conversation about whether there needs to be some regulation of analysts and exposure to social media is also a very premature. in the word regulation just like the what edition which is also still heavily debated in the research community

so you know so there isn't a visionary is what you're saying well i guess i just want to know that there is this notion we get it has not yet been recognized as a formal addiction we often see it as something to credit release and there are often times molecules that go into your bloodstream that was physical dependence and yes i do think that we don't yet have that level of evidence and that's where you do you know are physically a factor then and this is an. a i think it takes a whole nother program but it probably needs to be. as a probably right but let's take a stab at it anyway shall we. yeah well i want to talk a bit about regulation because regulation to natalie has been that all different levels i think it is premature it's now i think about regulation at

a very high level of quality yet spend any amount of money into campaigns and interventions because we've seen in other countries that there is can be very and that is because if you met adolescence the children as you say something they cannot and find ways around and it often goes over the top of what they actually want from their lives and that creates a world is constantly changing but i do see that today a report came out on a society of pediatrics and they really emphasized this need to really to look and have conversations in families about technology use and start that conversation very early setting some boundaries keeping to those barriers and making those barriers dependent on that child their use and contacts and that sort of small scale regulation i think can be the way forward because it allows us to be flexible we were talking about this diversity of social media we happen to get the diversity

of children and their situation and so taking it to the level of a family might be the best way forward in the current situation or a dentist who got us thinking about interventions in the beginning of the show let me come back to you for your thoughts given what amy said rather more cautious though from amy in the thinking about regulation what sort of intervention do you think are appropriate then look i just want to talk to to to respond to any and of course when i agree with her in the sense that to be doing is a lot more research there is no doubt about this but there are a few important things within this study and other studies of that's current that really need to be highlighted. one of them is of course the association which we have been talking about the other important part of the study was that the researchers looked at the mechanisms so how is this association between heavy social media use and the press of symptoms how could it be explained what is the mechanism it's called the mediator in science and what they have found that one of

the strongest mechanisms of mediators of this relationship was the lack of sleep and they really want to emphasize this because this is not the first study that have found that the that what explains the link between have a social media and. and poor mental house is the impact of those of media on sleep i think i mean will not dispute that sleep is important in our mental health and in particular emotional well being i don't think she doesn't have my legs are first going to i think she agrees with that yeah i can see how i'm i'm sure she is smiling. because you know that that has been that has been conclusively proven and so and of course the other important part another important mechanism that has been shown by this study and similar studies is that online harassment is could be another mechanism that explains. this link and so we do need more

a such but we also need to acknowledge that we have enough research to say that social media needs to be taken very carefully and thought through very carefully in terms of what it is that's being. allow our children who sometimes could be very young you know when they start using social media to do. and the second thing to say is that social media is not the only addictive thing on the internet now i'm i'm a clinician i see patients a lot and yesterday i saw a patient and you know that patient is is very similar to a great number of patients that we see. who really spans many many hours on the computer and really does not leave home at all and does not. do anything else and it's something that. is a relatively recent phenomenon i don't remember i could understand that i've known

better off that would be worrying right why are young people you know in the past rows or i want free will have to leave it there it's been a really fascinating discussion though and i thank all of our guests denis who grinned amy orban and stella brown from foster thank you all thank you to what you can see the show again anytime you want by visiting our website that's algis iraq dot com and for further discussion just head over to our facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story and also join the conversation on twitter i handle there is at the a.j. inside story from a sam is a band and the whole theme here is goodbye for now. i .

in the next episode of science in a golden age i'll be exploring the contributions made by scholars during the medieval islam it myriad in the field of astronomy. the pernik chris knows this day to these medieval astronomers from the golden age. streams in many ways with the computers of the day you can use it to find the time you could navigate science in a golden age with german. there's no one way of telling the story a key thing is to tell it right and to be respectful to say it is great to get to know the person for he tells. cultural history to some scribe layer upon layer at times the race of those who remain reinvented.

through the transformative power of public art and unlike the collision of hip hop culture i'm going digital tradition forms a community building project led by the godfather of graffiti. on a. i'm richelle carey and these are the top stories on al-jazeera president donald trump says the partial u.s. government shutdown could last for more than a year he doesn't get funding for a wall along the u.s. border with mexico is threatening to use emergency powers of congress doesn't meet his demands. on washington. the two sides emerged from both sides of the white house with very different impressions of how their meeting went and they had a very very productive meeting a lengthy and sometimes contentious conversation with the president.

with democrats now in charge of one chamber of congress they came to the white house to try and find a compromise to reopen the government the president says he won't sign a bill that doesn't spend five billion dollars on a wall the democrats say they simply will not spend a penny to build it they only seem to agree on one thing in fact he said he'd keep the government closed for a very long period of time months or even years absolutely i said that i don't think it will but i am prepared and i think i can speak for republicans in the house and republicans in the senate they feel very strongly about having a safe country but that is the key question can he keep senate republicans on his side if enough vote to fund the government it could override any potential veto reopening the government without a wall without that it could go on it for much longer both sides refusing to budge the president threatened to declare

a national emergency to build his wall on his own but it seems unlikely he actually has the power to do that under the constitution political scientist eric campbell doesn't think the new house speaker nancy pelosi will cave i think the question becomes next week when they are when they are government employees who are not getting paychecks i think that's when we really get a sense of how dug in and people are on both sides of an open question about who will win the political fight hundreds of thousands of government workers and contractors are not being paid and for many not paying their bills for them it is a question of how much more they'll have to lose before this political fight is over particle hane al-jazeera washington. it. has to the middle east next week the murder of journalists expected to be on the agenda when he meets saudi leaders also be seeking to reassure allies after president trump's announcement to withdraw u.s. troops from syria jordan has more from washington. we

will effort that for you moving on private data belonging to hundreds of german politicians including chancellor merkel has been published online the leaked information includes home addresses phone numbers and credit card details it's not clear whether the officials were targeted by a hacker or victims of an internal leak. from public has a weekend after making landfall in southern thailand earlier one fisherman was killed another went missing after their boat capsized in the storm counting centers in the democratic republic of congo's capital kinshasa have started compiling the results of last sunday's elections catholic bishops who fielded the largest group of election observers say there is a clear winner and are calling for accurate results to be declared a place in sudan have fired tear gas to disperse anti-government demonstrators who

gathered again after friday prayers want president omar al bashir to step down they're angry over rising food prices and government corruption at least nineteen people have died since the end rest started last month. foreign ministers from latin america and canada say their governments won't recognize necklace murder as venezuela's president when he's sworn in for a second term next week billiam a group of states is meeting improves capital to discuss how to step up pressure on the door though they say elections in may were not credible and are calling for power to be transferred to the national assembly until a free vote can be held venezuelans have fled the country because of a political and also an economic crisis will continue to follow that story for you here on al-jazeera and when you get a moment visit our web site as well al-jazeera dot com news from around the world that's al-jazeera dot com next to the last drop.

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which one tenth of people on earth have no access to. the question of its management that is who will be the provider of water to the big cities has become a major factor. for over a century water has been the domain of private companies but since two thousand something has begun to change. the. ninety four cases of this awful france. i think that this is quite important as a challenge especially because france is the country that has invented water bravos asia as we know it today the country that those water brought are zation.

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