really. the way of fighting so it's very difficult to say that we are anytime soon off the and off i just said about the does the end of the fleet do you think mean the end of the ideology the group seems to be all that defeated and sylvia has the ideology from my point of perspective i agree. he says that the ideology is still keeps on this land because of the whilom which is being created in syria and iraq and the historical background starting from assad regime and starting from saddam hussein time the battle or the field profiles in order to create such kind of terrorist groups because of. that me take a look at the back to do it historical background of the eiffel but can i say that a garrulous type war player you know to conduct especially in syria and iraq is

also impossible because in order to conduct a good rule of warfare you need to control an area which completely belongs to you for all kinds of logistical and training camps can say that from now on the eiffel can conduct terrorist attacks. just different from the general of warfare the terrorist attacks inside syria and inside iraq so i agree that i still militarily has lost the game in syria on iraq but i can say that it is not the end of any kind of terror groups inside syria and iraq all the middle east terrain is very for files as i said you know order to create such kind of terror groups in this area. mr gifford do you think the group could resurface given that there is no credible peace plan for syria and as we've heard many of the conditions that led to the rise

remain you know an absence of political legitimacy we have a failure of governance still yes i actually agree with my fellow guests although we've defeated isis militarily we've taken back the so-called caliphates the sick twisted ideology that underpins everything they do lives on and while that lives on while syria and iraq are still in ruins and while people are still not represented in governments where they feel they don't have a future i think you'll always find the rich fertile ground for which isis will try to exploits. and that's the next challenge for the coalition the coalition is done great work in destroying isis however they have destroyed a lot of syrian infrastructure for instance so we really need to rebuild we need to restore what was there and we also need to come up with a plan for the future that will actually hill the rift within syrian society and before you do that i mean how do you manage the very present problem right now of

the remaining fighters mr massey what are their options you know if this syrian will they stay in syria and try to reintegrate society or will they leave and keep on fighting. i mean that's a big issue because a mini country is there is no agreement actually among countries how to deal with the foreign fighters in europe there is a heated debate how to deal with the foreign fighters are in their return is and as you followed all recently president obama trump asked the european countries to receive the foreign fighters but actually did is a daily how to deal with this return is most of the european countries actually are not what come in order not to want to stick to or to receive. the actual aren't they way they are the most off countries in europe and elsewhere that

are dealing with the return is is mainly through oppressive measures which is the prosecution and put them in prison but the problem is not that it's not the prosecution it's after the post-prison because those people have experience in the buckle field it's a challenge after they return to society later and this alibi that there are of course many who don't want to return to normal society they want to keep fighting what are the options for these fighters where are they looking to go i mean we've heard from iraqi intelligence officials from a u.s. military official that hundreds likely more than a thousand of isis fighters have crossed the open border the desert water into iraq . regrouping in iraq. as i said iraq and syria is a very personal grounds as i say. in order to build up again a capacity in spite rock so it should be very careful not only in splitting about

also in iraq but you know the pain this terrorist organization both inside the new rug and syria we have three options i can say one of them is to let them turn back to their all regional countries and to make a judicial process queue to judicial trial in their own country is the second option that to judge them in all regional countries where the crime has been committed but that may take a look at back to the shooting grant for example there is no capacity of the story in government in order to judge because the sudanese government only could rolls counter-top with this country two thirds of a discount under the occupation of syrian democratical force and other forces so this is also not a very good option in order to fight with a terrorist organization the third option which is very logical from my point of perspective to build an international court and to judge them inside where they

have committed crimes but that court should be definitely an international court because we cannot try we cannot trust to the judicial process of the syrian regime so the third option might be a little bit more logical but what can i say that the european countries as explained in a couple of days that they cannot take back the responsible but the of accepting their citizens to their countries the cannot quite against terrorism if we do not take the responsibility of our citizens they should take some responsibility in order to fight against terrorism otherwise preaching to the countries such as turkey syria iraq and other countries from their comfortable bloom's is not enough to fight the terrorists and again what happens to foreign financing want to return

home and it's a real issue but that's something that. is addressed once we actually get to a judicial process with the fighters again there are so many who don't want to who don't want to return and who want to keep fighting so mr mansour about how concerned or prepared a country's in the region you know including north african countries about the fighters who are losing ground in syria trying to make it to other countries in the region to join groups there. actually there are three different kind of countries in north africa that are dealing with this issue there are i would say strong countries with strong cup abilities of the military and security level which i'm talking here about morocco syria and to some extent tunisia out so in this country i think they are more efficient in dealing with their attorneys and also manage in the to carlos about the issue here is with

the which is where there is a lot of. lawless areas and there was a lot of people traveling from to truly be for infarct or so here is the issue of how to deal with this people coming from live in syria and iraq and locate an intercity a but to what extent and how many people travel it actually to really be odd and other countries it's very difficult to judge for the moment i think it's more the case of the for a job and weak states rather than stronger states like a miracle a jury under new and of course all of these countries are worried about the u.s. troop withdrawal from syria because of what it means for the situation fighting i feel for feiss leaving and we've had as we mentioned president donald trump's

announcement in december that he was pulling out two thousand u.s. soldiers out and so we have raised concern among allies alarmed the s.t.'s turkey considers could his fight is to be part of a terrorist group and would attack them once u.s. forces withdraw the white house now says it's keeping two hundred u.s. troops in syria as peacekeepers but trump denies it's a huge and has decision came after a phone call with turkish president twenty five editor wants to if he wants to set up a safe zone and northeastern syria which is cleared off the u.s. . asked kurdish fighters mr gifford i'll come to you because you've actually fought with the kurdish y p g in syria against eisel what are your thoughts on the u.s. troop withdrawal keeping these two hundred so-called peacekeepers in the country what are they going to do well i think put themselves really between the turkish army and the kurdish y.p. gee. i was very disturbed to hear don't trump's initial suggestion that all troops

are going to be removed i think donald trump is very much a short term politician he was he was only there to fight isis he wanted to pull all the troops out but after some advice from his own generals and realizing that if he were to do that then it would actually start another round of violence in syria has actually taken the sensible option of keeping some troops on the grounds because the real battle now is how do we keep the peace after we've defeated isis and we've already heard that isis could actually come by they have got arms supplies arms dumps they've got a real insurgency plan they've formed for quite some time now but also how could we stop assad attacking how can we stop turkey attacking how do we actually keep people around the table and how can we get everyone around the table in geneva so i think those are the questions that we have to ask ourselves and that's the question i hope they will try is considering now and of course another question that is frequently asked about the u.s.

troop withdrawal mr mass put it to you is how much of that cuban is that going to leave i mean is it going to contribute to a region or to international power struggle which in turn could make it easier for eisel to come back. yeah i've been the question here is that mike mcqueary before said it's the this policy is short sighted it looks through the short terms but not on the root causes that led in the beginning to the americans and increase in influence of isis which is the above governance and also corruption off local idiots so after the withdrawal of the american troops what is the next next plan and what is the next steps i think there is a if there is no address of the root goes us which is actually the governance and also crops and how to manage the daily life of people and i think it's going to make it easier for

a resurgent of. maybe not isis but another group of. inside syria and iraq because this is i think the main reason that to the to the. resurgence in the first place so here again we. be enough vicious circle which is a bug but governance is corruption and appealed and we have to know are actually that's many people in during the caliphates the three years of the caliphate were actually not ideologically affiliated with isis but they were happy because they are please provide the security and the kind of order and little flaw in their way i mean the caliphate even if we don't like the way i mean the be heeding successor about it successfully managed to put the order there so the

question here is if the next step is to is to money the situation to put things in order if this is not addressed i thing. it's like pouring water in the sand and mr al about the how do you address that i mean i guess that is the million dollar question and how do you stop the vicious circle even now when you know mr masters talking about other groups and you've spoken a lot about iraq and syria what about the concern the threat of sleeper cells and civilian populations. from my point of perspective from time to time saurian democratic forces are blackmailing the european union if they really is all the captives of the i saw the i saw bill go to europe and again make the terrorist attack the european union but but i will explain that if turkey moves to you stop the european euphrates river i do not exist is syrian democratical course of

explanation that isis again will gain power in this area because turkey is the only country who falls with isis not by very often air force but childer the shoulders and killed more than one thousand. isolate members only in general blues and others and two thousand above this is. temper sense of all this is fighting kept us. after the ukraine shield operation the know that the turkey created an order created cool's created hospitals so address to the root causes of the isis problem especially in many different cities of the story or so what i believe that fighting with isis with the y.p. jim militia is not a long term solution to the problems of the story and problem the long term

solution can only be with possibly can only be possible with the creation of all order in this area the protocol solution will be the end of the i saw the problem in this story or there is not other solution other than that and so that i think the problem is that everyone agrees that there has to be a political order that everyone has different ideas of what that would or should look like mr geffen i can see that you disagreed with some of what you had there. yeah well i. ended the day is obviously very anti considers it very close with the k.k.k. and if they were to attack then it would cause a huge amount of violence of which isis and other jihadi groups will thrive in so. i don't for one second think turkey has been a positive influence on this conflict far from it they have been funding the

hardest groups within f.s.a. areas in other places from the very beginning so they hold much of the responsibility for the condition that syria is in right now and if we are to look to the future the toxic regional influences that have fueled the violence need to be pushed aside and we need to take a very pragmatic approach who is holding the territory and who's holding it successfully who's fighting isis it's groups like the s.d.f. it's the groups like the y p g and with american backing with european backing will actually come up with a decent solution to this crisis there is hope but only if we focus on what's working now and not start talking about renewed offensive by turkey into kurdish areas and would just cause terrible terrible violence and you know most people will admit that i feel has been being defeated with a lot of help and tegel crucial help from the syrian democratic forces what role mr giffen do you see for them now in we are close to a post i still fear. well the s.t.'s the greatest

assets or the greatest where the most effective is actually holding the territory although isis had there is some limited insurgency the vast majority of the areas around sort of rocker and in the north of the country the thirty percent of syria that's controlled by the s.d.f. is actually very peaceful so peaceful in fact there are often go to dinner out go out for meet friends go out for tea without carrying a weapon this is a very. it's a quite a wonderful experience to be in a syria that's truly decentralized shows what the future of syria could actually be which is a syria syria the secular democratic where all the different peoples whether they're kurds edis and arabs will all live together in one place so we just need to realize what's what's effective now we need to realize what the local people in the ground want which is peace now and they are working very effectively under the

banner so long it continues as far as i'm concerned mr master do you agree that a decentralized syria is the key to a peaceful syria and what needs to happen now to make sure that you know the military defeat of the group will not be in vain. yeah i think a more decentralized. way of governance is very important for syria for the moment given the divisions inside the country from us external perspective but i think the first thing is to put kind off stability in the region to make some successful stories to tell to and to emulate on all the regions and i think this is the challenge for the moment is to make a minimum of stability in some areas now with with the as the f. we will wait and see if it's going to be a successful story and then we can see if it's can be more successful in other parts of the country and the south about that i think we don't have very long left

in the program so i'll give you the last word how do we capitalize on the gains the real gains made against i feel a lot then i say that i simply disagree with my counterpart which is addressing prolong the turkey has lost connection with the jihad the groups which is very clear that turkey as connection with the opposition which they claim as g.l. this but they are part of the general a peace process so why the whole thing we should be very clear about what's going on in the torah this sort of democracy courses are controlling look at but they expect i was in to tell of the border just two weeks ago all the other bits of the palau be up to.