on al jazeera. hello i'm daryn jordan in doha with the top stories here on al-jazeera the number of people killed in the gun attacks at two new zealand mosques has risen to fifty police have also confirmed twenty eight year old suspect brenton tarrant at that alone one of the fifty people injured twelve are still in a critical condition questions hospital's chief of surgery describe the strain the attacks are put on doctors and other medical stuff it's. it's a bit challenging for people. you know we're all part of the community and we're struggling with it as much as everyone else is this is not something that we

expected to. see an air environment we do see gunshot wounds we do see all these type of injuries but you know forty to fifty people in a day is more than that and what we should see while some survivors of friday's attack i've been telling our correspondent andrew thomas how they escaped the gunman after the violent frenzy the flowers all day on saturday people came to lay them in tribute to the date and then stand whisper and weep. among those gathered were survivors and their stories on one feed. her head start of his. that he had just gone for three or four minutes into. when you heard the shots. and noises coming near so then i decided to. trade in jump of my wife tried to support him this different sister linda

and when she tried to talk took it like that. one of coming you know on that and my wife it's injured here and so i wanted to go to linda and linda is right one of my friend knows he is from india no it was him run it was short one blood on his shoulder so i was holding him and then the gun gunmen going through the window and shot him while he was on my lebanese shooting couple of shots in the head he was a teen people of. all when he finished the bullet he left of the down over the way . friday's attacks were targeted at migrants and muslims but their impact has been t.n.i. to all new zealanders in horror and sadness some echoed the prime minister's call for urgent action on guns i think we should ban all guns and news on dandy people

today have guns is a place in the armed forces to receive be obeyed it does made of a saying ghana or well one thing. the hanes on all guns why they should be obeying those who came to pay tribute saw the police working nearby they saw the hearses to arriving and leaving regularly collecting bodies from the al nor mosque this tribute has grown steadily over the course of saturday hundreds of. people to be down here to stand in quiet contemplation there are of course very serious questions still to be answered but there's also grief and solidarity to express after thomas al jazeera postures. and this is give you some live pictures here of new zealand's prime minister just ended her meeting members of the muslim community that's in wellington's a lot of pictures coming to us here as the prime minister. is meeting members of

the muslim community in wellington following those terrible attacks on friday. by dozens of dead in zimbabwe as tropical cyclone pushes its way into the country the deadly storm has already claimed more than a hundred lives in mozambique and malawi damaged or bridges roads and power lines continues to scare recovery efforts the shops have been looted and businesses torched in paris and the latest universe demonstrations is the eighteenth weekend of protests against president michel terms of thousands of people from catalonia have been protesting in the spanish capital against the trial of twelve prone dependents we did was there was a heavy police presence in madrid after three hundred eighty bus loads of people travelled from across catch a live. or as the headlines the news continues. after a head to head statement of the watching i thought.

over the last four decades china's economic boom has lifted millions out of poverty . and set the country on a path to become the world's largest economy we observe an incredible rebalancing of the chinese economy at a faster pace than anyone else. but since president xi jinping came to power in twenty thirteen critics say china has become even more all to critic. he's tried to curb corruption but it's also cracked down on his rivals. and invested billions in a bigger stronger military. reflecting a more aggressive foreign policy to see if you will with as you go to include which we're going to be. at home up to a million muslim we girls are believed to be interned by the chinese authorities in

so-called reeducation centers this appears to be the most intensive social reengineering effort of the chinese state since the cultural revolution but my guest tonight disputes all this police china is a force for good in the world. i'm in the us and i've come here to the oxford union to go head to head with charles liu a chinese financier senior fellow at the peking university and an advisor to the chinese government i'll challenge him on china's human rights record and ask him is china's economic miracle sustainable and what on earth is going on with the weakness. tonight i'll also be joined by three experts steve tsang director of the china institute at the school of oriental and african studies in london andrus folder a china expert at the university of asia research institute and victor gao. he's president of the center for china and globalization in beijing and a former interpreter for the late president deng xiaoping.

ladies and gentlemen please welcome charles liu. you is the founder and chairman of investment company how capital and the regular t.v. commentator on chinese issues. charles lou thanks for joining me on head to head chinese president xi jinping who's government you've advised said last year china is ready for a bloody battle against our enemies and kicked off twenty nine thousand by ordering the people's liberation army to quote prepare for a comprehensive military struggle with who charles. there's only one country that is sending warships into chinese territory that is threatening china with all kinds of things the united states. whenever i hear president trump speak

he says how much he loves president xi and how the great powers but everything that he's doing all the executive orders the military budget all of this is focused on challenging china's position in the world china has one military outposts. u.s. house eight hundred it's interesting because you say the u.s. is a threat and threatening china and china is reacting funny because the u.s. commander on the ground in the asia pacific davidson in february told the u.s. senate the exact opposite he says through fear and economic pressure beijing is working to expand its form of ideology in order to bend break and replace the existing rules based international order who's replacing rules of international order whose cracking down on the booty oh who's left to paris climate agreement who's challenging who grim and that's reached with the iranians who. it's not china i mean you could make it all about america and i'm not here to

defend trump's america but the reality is that chinese hawks independently of the u.s. are on the ascendant in your country on twentieth of december chinese rear admiral lowell un said the chinese navy should consider sinking two u.s. aircraft carriers and killing ten thousand u.s. service personnel what do united states fears the most is taking casualties we'll see how frightened america is. i don't take these these these type of comments serious the chance of a war between the two sides is minimal last year the chinese government announced its biggest increase in military spending for three years even though you already have a defense budget which is bigger than the u.k. france south korea and russia combined and yet you announced the biggest increase for three years this is not just about words or. when the u.s. still continues to challenge as they do for entering chinese territorial waters however you look at it the total amount is still insignificant compared to us

syndicate but you spend all their u.k. frog's of russia combined three nuclear powers the three nuclear powers in terms of population that's up to how many what's a population got to do with your militaries but you have a big population we know that what's that got to do with the spending india has a huge population that they spend a quarter of what you said they wish they had the money to spend more. this talk about something doesn't directly involve the united states the south china sea arbitration the permanent court of arbitration at the hague ruled in twenty sixteen chinese claims to the south china sea have no legal basis and yet the chinese continue to disregard that ruling china is claiming more and more land more more resources building more and more of these artificial islands of the seven so far malaysia vietnam in the news you're brunei the philippines they've all been upset with chinese behavior in the south china sea with china taking these reefs all the discussion about how such amnesty has been so called freedom of navigation when was

the last time you have seen a blockage of freedom of navigation and when was the last time you heard the countries even named including vietnam reason issue on china and south china sea it's only your friends americans and those trillions who are jumping up and down are all over those it's interesting because in twenty eighteen a bunch of asian countries mainly your neighbors were asked would it be better to have for the world to have the u.s. what china is the leading global power seventy three percent of asian respondents including japan south korea the philippines indonesia favored the u.s. versus twelve percent for china even with trump as president seventy seven percent of filipinos say they prefer the u.s. leading the world to beijing that's pretty damning to pick trump over china that's pretty damning i would. that is. but in practical terms i don't see these countries in terms of their foreign policy

and their government. addressing the chinese as a pure paul. would seem to indicate but let's bring in our panel here to see what they think about this so far and dress fuller is a german academic a china expert at the university of nottingham asia research institute and this should china's neighbors and the wider world be worried about this chinese military build up this increase in spending you know i think they should and the truth of the matter is when talks about china's national rejuvenation. it is worrisome because the underlying tenets of radical revisionist an expansionist foreign policy as evident from the artificial reefs in the south china sea but also his threat of the next thing taiwan which is a liberal democracy a very vibrant society just. opposite the coast of mainland china and what i think his game plan is to project his power abroad to shore up his

support at home charles just deal with and dress a specific point about taiwan you were born in taiwan of course if you still lived in taipei today in the taiwanese couple we should be worried some of the rhetoric coming out of beijing about and i wouldn't be at all well not as i actually went to tell you to worry you know i went to taipei for the midterm elections when i see in taipei or in taiwan today is the people in taiwan have fed up with so-called independent politics they're looking for better lives why is it a hundred seventy thousand nears of love taiwan and have gone to show why is there all the ninety percent of the startups in taiwan are aimed at the chinese market and other taiwanese market i think the fact that the economies have become so integrated between taiwan and china. leads to. let's say the possibility of addressing the issue but my impression is that the young taiwanese

are actually quite worried that they may actually lose out in this process and also lose their defect to solve the liberal democratic state but that is no longer considered a primary issue even for the younger people ok let me bring in steve who is a british political scientist ball in hong kong currently director of the china institute at the school of oriental and african studies in london steve is this a new form of aggressive foreign policy in china or is a just an exaggeration on the part of. china's enemies what is china trying to do with its foreign policy trying to change the region change the world after she simply become leader of china what we are seeing is an assertive foreign policy that essentially amongst to china now requests this and we acquire the rest of the world to pay china do you respect and what amounts to due respect is something to be judged. by the communist party of china or in fact by

the leader of china general to spot the xi jinping ok we've also got vic to go with one of china's best known international politics experts vice president the center for china and globalization in beijing former interpreter for the late president going shopping you can't deny that the current chinese president is taking different steps of criticism is demanding respect on the regional and international china doesn't want to challenge the international order today but china wants to have a better say a lot just say in the international order today and i hope the rest of the world will respect chan as requested because this is legitimate this is a legal this is not revolutionary means to overthrow all the international in the south china sea there's a debate about legality when you're smiling there when it decided i want china is not allowed to change the international system as we know it at the moment but is

transforming it when the u.n. agency for human rights was spin changed and then china play a leading role in the transformation equations of the human rights council and as it does so it basically changes the discussions at the un about human rights now china is not as much of the receiving end of criticism on human right charles let me ask you this one of the reason so many people abroad are worried about chinese foreign and defense policy right now is because you have a president who at home appears to be bent on increasing its own power and reach the chinese president since mel as you know tended to serve five or ten years in office but president xi has cracked down on his rivals refused to designate a successor and last year got rid of term limits he's gearing up to be president for life isn't a dictator in chief ok two things number one it's a one party system we did and. thank god. the key issue for the chinese government is that they tried. very hard over the years to

maintain stability you are claiming this president for life thing is precisely you don't understand how the system works explain it now take watching tower for example during his second term were seen as lame lame duck for the entire second term and he couldn't implement the execute a lot of the things that he wanted to execute it doesn't mean that he's guy truly going to continue for another term but that prospect would take out the possibility of being regarded as lame duck but it does give him the option to surf the life legally with even system if it goes in that direction he does seem to be going in that direction now messer the quick question there on the vote last year in march that was the vote in the national people's congress to get rid of term limits the delegates voted two thousand nine hundred sixty four of them voted two of them voted against two thousand nine hundred fifty nine voted in favor of free and fair election. i'm just wondering to you i mean in two thousand not only would have

voted the way you wanted to know who were similar journeys politics works apparently that's how it works ok good to hear such an endorsement of the system. i think you should not be addressing the chinese entire system of how it works in comparison to what you have in the west you have to remember that fifty years ago ninety percent of the population were you literate only ten percent was literate or sophisticated kid the whole process of transforming that into a modern society is that it's taken a long time by the way a lot of chinese people weren't happy with the two term limits and they took two way bo and other online forums and they were not allowed to in fact the chinese government disallowed the word personality cult my emperor two term limit emperor a she they were all not allowed to use those words online to avoid people's dissatisfaction with this move. this is just. you you read where

for i don't read way but others who read it for me ok. they are comments their views and comments describing their views and comments on this issue they got shut down so it's not true shut down because i can i wrote something on the as well where you wrote something critical of president chiluba. absolutely oh well what did you write i said this would not be regarded well by the western press but that's your definition of a criticism of the chinese rather nicely done charles we got to move on time a short we want to talk about the economy in part two before we do there's another big domestic issue that's grabbed a lot of headlines in recent months your country the government you support and have advised according to a un rapporteurs recording to the u.s. state department according to amnesty international couldn't human rights watch according to plenty of journalists and many others are believed to be detained maybe a million people or more mainly from the we go muslim ethnic minority in reeducation

camps a million people charles million ok it's certainly not grabbing headlines in china is enough because you don't have a free press in china so you can have headlines about the we know it's because there are fifty five national minorities in china and population is. in total nine and ten million i believe in yes zero point zero point seven percent of the world i work on percentages if you lock up a million the world does sound the world pays attention one point four billion people need to be third need to be close i've got to be lucky if a billion people in changing the most concern you to hear that a million people of your fellow chinese countrymen and women have been lucky if it's true sure how do we establish if it's true or not. why don't you let people in to check and count the moment for sure i think people have visited know they've been on kind of supervised trips with chinese monitors to select camps where they haven't been able to see everything in front of reuters went on a trip last year they were taken around they were allowed to meet some people and the people saying if you're happy and you know it clap your hands and chinese

government monitors stood in the room the whole time and no one is allowed to speak to anyone in there but well you know this is there are there are people who've been in those camps who have come out of those camps and now refugees in the us in kazakhstan and they have testified to hoarding shackling torture sleep deprivation sexual humiliation starvation this is what's coming out from people who've been in those camps and if it's true then there's certainly a very bad this is not my area of expertise and involved in the politics and i've been to see into more concerned about the economic side let me bring in victor gao who. is a very well known chinese political commentator even chinese government officials have admitted that there are these camps there are people locked up for quote unquote reeducation but in the most horrific conditions and we're talking up to a million people victor how do you justify that the wiggle people are our brothers as sisters i have many friends among the wheel people among the muslim people they are minority most of them great chinese nationals that's for sure however i'm

on the we've all muslims there are extremists there are terrorists and there are separatists separatists which want to who want to split. away from china in china under the chinese law anyone attempting to separate any part of chinese territory outside of china is committing a crime we need to be fully nowhere of this legal issue we cannot tolerate anyone denying that some we have been caught up in international terrorism no one to deny and i wondering why not lock them up i lock up a million people first of all all together in jail there. it's less than ten million people if you are really serious in believing that there is one million people among the wheels or locked up being so called caps this is completely fabricated how many people are locked up i do not know you can't buy a million if you don't have an alternative number there are several vs one is the

definition of one million or less there will be limits to one thing the other world is locked up when they're not there of their own volition other there are people in jail who are going through training or retraining for educational purposes there are people in education because kyra at summer camp who is one of the people who managed to get out of a camp he says we were forced to sing political songs and study speeches of the chinese communist party we were forced to chant long live xi jinping before we were given our meals many of us who tried to attempt suicide allowed me to say one thing for sure no one in china is saying long live so whatever report you are called is false to start with here's what i don't give it to the u.s. and the international human rights watch the u.s. state department various china experts human rights activists have come up with this number of a million based on satellite photography based on people who have come out and talked about it you're saying it's not a million i'm asking very simply how many is it i think we need to just

differentiate the realities on the ground versus the falsified the claims of the refugees we go if you do have talked about being tortured in camps they're just making it up according to you lots of these claims are false you fight well as i mentioned you're a friend of the way good people andrus fulda what do you make of victor's response and charles' response so far i think it's both what the victim said this indefensible and let me explain for a lot of people who support the transforms party cultural difference has to be dealt with by homogenisation in the simulation but let me give a human face to these people. there is a pop saying he's famous for a song where he's encouraging young people to study hard to do physical exercise and to be courtis he is not a terrorist. or a second example there is another gentleman and he was very promising footballer because he travelled abroad he was deemed a potential terrorist if he is in

a camp he is not a terrorist in the last but not least in that really important. the peace activist very widely respected individual he has always advocated that the predominantly han chinese should get along with the weaker us and vice versa he was locked up for life for this kind of moderate advocacy on behalf of his own people so i would say these three individuals need to be released immediately the one million we. need to be released immediately there is no justification to bring so much harm to them and their families should be able to live in peace and free from fear victor what's your response to that and charles you want to come and do no harm in the fighters are fighting definitely not on militia reactor five thousand people so why not five thousand lives we will fight to fight in syria has about three or four

purses in their family fighting together how does five thousand fighters go over to. syria come on charles every country has had problems with fighters going out to syria has enjoyed five arest attacks in china. not locked up a million muslims in france five thousand and how did they get there there's a support group the same in france charles and the french of not locked up a million people they have a problem the french claim they have a problem radicalization they've brought in a state of emergency but they haven't detained many people that even the french haven't said you can name your son muhammad you can't have children entering mosques government employees can't fast during ramadan you can grow quote abnormally long beards that's asian is banned we give people from doing that's for children not being allowed to go into mosques that's totally false i was a false how do you know it because i've seen the photos of them of the sign there are photos of i have a. neighbor next immediate next door neighbor. who is muslim who goes to mosque

with his children in beijing there is no issues here you know what have you so don't ask me i don't know anything about this but then you jump in to say everything's fake steve let me ask you this you're listening to charles of it are saying this is propaganda what do we know what is the evidence suggest to you that you've seen that can be corroborated by what's happening on the ground on a place like india and what we do know of the political system is that the communist party of china has a monopoly of the truth and the model plea of history in china. therefore what they say must be true is by definition and what anybody else has to say that the snot coincide with what the party is saying is. that is what we're dealing with when we're talking about one tenth of one definable minority in the whole country. being identify and put in can't how would

our friends here feel if one. of the native population of shanghai. beachy living in camps chose to answer. never thought about that question because just president. i just don't see it i don't see it happening i don't see a possible physically to spend this in order in the amount of time on something which many myself included don't feel to be truthful i think they could have propaganda on your part and here's what i don't get on the one hand you say i don't know anything about this on the other hand you believe if i'm truthful you can't have it both ways charles if you don't know anything about it maybe you shouldn't accuse other people of making stuff up and you invent to say it's all fake news. maybe there's maybe there is something. ok well i'm not going to leave the discussion we're going to take a break we're going to come back in part to head to head with charles liu with our

panel of experts we're going to hear from our patient audience here in the oxford union we're going to talk about the chinese economic miracle and about much more t. . on the council because this week he's on a mission to save the internet will talk to tim berners lee inventor of the world wide web and we'll look at why k.v.'s safari club is teaming up with china's biggest e-commerce company counting the cost. i stuff like that. but this route is. going to contradict the truck that it's dangerous. world follows the moroccan truck driver in danger of their life. just to be committing if you drive they might break your liver or even

kill because of her she's known for. his zero. hello i'm daryn join in doha with the top stories here on al jazeera the number of people killed in the gun attacks up to new zealand moss has risen to fifty police have also confirmed twenty eight year old suspect brenton talent acted alone. the new zealand police and other emergency services remind absolutely virtue want to keep all of new zealanders and everyone who lives here all visits here saif for him . and tombs of the security we have around mosques around new zealand that will continue until we believe there is no threat well up to fifty people injured twelve are still in

a critical condition christchurch hospital's chief of surgery described the strain the attacks of put on. it's a bit challenging for people. you know we're all part of the community and we're struggling with it as much as everyone else is this is not something that we expected to. see in our environment we do see a gunshot wound we do see all these type of injuries but you know forty to fifty people in a day is more than we should see. when emotional scenes as prime minister descend durned members of the muslim community in wellington short time ago she also laid a wreath of flowers at a memorial dozens of people are dead in zimbabwe as tropical cyclone pushes its way into the country the deadly storm has already claimed more than one hundred lives in mozambique and malawi damaged or bridges roads and power lines continue to slow

recovery efforts shops have been looted and businesses torched in paris in the latest deal of the demonstrations is the eighteenth weekend of protests against president emanuel. tens of thousands of people from catalonia have been protesting in the spanish capital against the trial of twelve printed pendants leaders there was a heavy police presence in madrid after three hundred ninety bus loads of people traveled from across catalonia and there been more protests now jira demanding president abilities but a freak a step down weeks of scenes like this of forced the adding leader to drop his bid for a fifth term but it hasn't been enough to satisfy the masses but there is now a delay in the next presidential elections well those were the headlines the news continues here on al-jazeera after head to head stage of the water bottle. thank you for a. head to head on now just my guest today is charles liu the financier

entrepreneur informal advisor to the chinese government undoubtedly the chinese economy has been a success story in many ways record growth millions of people lifted out of poverty and the only ones questions that but there are of course as you know serious concerns about the sustainability of the chinese economic miracle how long it's going to last the jobs markets got a lot tougher exports and imports a slowdown the chinese stock indexes i believe lost almost a quarter of their value last year even the trade war with the u.s. seems to be taking its toll are we witnessing the beginning in of the end of the chinese economic. i remember a book from one thousand nine hundred ninety eight by a top economist called the oncoming collapse of the chinese economy that's nine hundred ninety eight two thousand and nineteen twenty some years ago there's been plenty of discussion about the oncoming collapse of the chinese economy and the coming collapse of the chinese financial system oncoming collapse of chinese

productivity i'm afraid so far it's proven that it's last year and believe that. the chinese economy is transforming it is moving from cheap labor manufacturing for fortune five hundred companies to a significantly. meaningful domestic market and domestic consumption now six point five percent ok i would say to my co-investors even four percent is is quite good because the base is so much bigger now one thing that's been a consistent trend in china has just been getting worse and worse over the last few decades is inequality that seems to be spiraling out of control in a country there were eighteen million new chinese billionaires in twenty eighteen alone that's almost two new billionaires a week while tens of millions of people still live in poverty why is a self-styled communist society producing so many billionaires and so much income inequality why i think it's the value creation is society as

a whole then shopping said that some people get rich first in terms of developing milton friedman said something similar they were going to say the same thing to the real exactly if you recall down economics is now the chinese or the chinese socialist way ok it's the trickle down or is this some things much more significant according to a recent study by the european think tank bruegel quote the large and persistent income gap is partly the fault of china's tax and transfer system and quote very generous personal income tax allowance and exemptions that favor high income individuals you're a high income individual you charles have you benefited from this tax system haven't you while other chinese have and there are two aspects to this new tax rolls have just been implemented which is supposed to be much more second is. it's very very difficult to have a transforming society that is changing so rapidly and to have the tax system that fits in every stage of development and if you look at china in the one nine hundred

eighty s. early one nine hundred ninety s. it was basically cheap manufacturing and then they moved into something else and yet today the article one of the chinese constitution still says that the people's republic of china is a socialist state led by the working class that's just a completely false. china today you know led by the working class you know not really a socialist. was certainly not a socialism nor norway and finland and sweden. we prefer to look at what happens to the economy and whether or not people's livelihoods have been improved get well let's talk about some of the rich chinese and what they're up to the who are on the group very well respected research company did a survey of high net worth individuals in china rich millionaires and so and they found that almost half the number of rich chinese are planning to move away from china to protect their fortunes and to get better educations for their kids a lot of chinese billionaires billionaires you know i mean you keep going on about the west the west a lot of the rich people in your country are obsessed with the west they buy houses

in the west they send their kids to school in the west they buy western art at ridiculous prices ok. it's part of the investment i buy things in the west as well you wanted i think they wanted to move because of the political environment in china one in five said they want to protect their assets three quarters that they want their children to have a better education not a great vote of confidence in china from its richest be ok i have investments all over the world as well it doesn't mean that i'm moving out of china the number you should look at is the number of students returning to china after getting an education and the worst of course with china vilification by the u.s. a lot of chinese students being pushed out of u.s. schools i guess how billionaire business men can send their kids abroad to study how do you explain the president of china a twenty two thousand dollars a year official salary paying for his only daughter to go to harvard how do you explain all these top politburo officials who are on twenty two thousand twenty three thousand dollars a year sending their kids to some of the most expensive private schools and

universities how do they pay for that if you went purely by scores that eighty percent of the population of the u.c. system will be asian they happen to be better students and they get scholarships so did she jinping daughter get a scholarship to go to harvard i don't know i assume he could have she could have because you know that his family according to a bloomberg study found to be billionaires his brother in law's name appeared in the panama papers the chinese political elite is riddled with corruption as you well know and that's something that has been in the process of being addressed the last four years what does that say about your model that the chinese government has rounded up two million people communist party officials have been disciplined for corruption in recent years thank god they've been rounded up what about the president the politburo he seems to only arrest people who are not in his inner circle the people he likes never seem to get arrested not to really can you name ally of the president who has landed up recently. who's an ally who is not they are politburo members who are brought to charges well let's ask our panel andrea folder

is here trying to export at the university of nottingham to asia research institute in the u.k. you've advised german and european authorities are engaged with china you're shaking your head when charles talks about how the problem is in china and is it being dealt with well first of all of course it's very opaque it's a dangerous topic to talk about however we know from the wiki leaks and one of the cables from the us state department. that the political committee is basically a cabal of business and these individual members control whole industries so was what was alleged is that for example that the no increase in secret securities are . basically controlled the oil industry and for example case of the former premier wen jiabao or his wife she apparently like diamonds a lot so she would control the press release gems sector now if you think about it the cutting of the economic pie like this then thinking that this founder of amazon is the richest man in the world i think becomes

a rather fancy full idea because these members in the political standing committee probably and their families are far richer than any individual outside china victor gao is reversed chinese international politics expert vice president the center for china and globalization in beijing for my interpreter to the late president. how do you explain to someone who's been around some of these people you've been in their presence where do they get all their money from of their own twenty two grand a year first of all for the record of corruption in china is deeply entrenched secondly as an institution as a policy the chinese government chinese party and the chinese people cannot tolerate corruption so whatever that's necessary to weed out corruption to ride out the corrupt officials will do and this is exactly what charles mentioned the chinese system is doing over the past five or six years in particular to be. in chasing after these corrupt place it is those who have working as a chinese overseas wealth as double between twenty twelve and twenty eighteen

they're getting to be getting away with offshoring all their assets let me add another point however over the past twenty or thirty years probably present almost all the cities as con up significantly so most of the urban citizens in china to say the least about the government officials can actually afford their kids to send their kids to the best schools in the west is specially of the chinese system of family relatives pulling our funds together to support the outstanding member in china militarily they all want to dress this point that you have the former prime minister's wife controlling the diamond industry of different politburo members controlling different sectors of the economy how is that that's socialism with the chinese characteristic that's exactly what we were talking about before. politburo members were whole to task for these things i mean the thing is there was a report by the people bank of china in two thousand and eleven and they found out that since the one nine hundred ninety s.

eighteen thousand party officials managers off. because they don't enterprise etc had fled the country and they took with them a whopping one hundred twenty twenty billion us dollars if you think about that kind of theft of looting of state assets if that had been invested let's see in the chinese education system or in china's health system that would have alleviated a lot more poverty then let me bring in steve who would be waiting patiently british political scientist born in hong kong currently the director of the china institute at the school of oriental and african studies in london how bad is the inequality problem in china and could either of our distinguished guest from china tell us what the coefficient is in china this is the measure of inequality that is the measure of inequality. i studied china and korea i confess that i cannot tell you because that no such thing is available why because the chinese government

don't want to be available maybe the party has caught them but if the party has the information is top secret is completely classified we are not allowed to know what it is victor in china many people are not very happy about comparing their wealth to their neighbors however one thing is drool among the majority of the chinese people that is if that person compares his own situation with his situation ten years of war twenty years ago or forty years ago every world is better off that still megatrend we need to keep focused on the great changes that have that's happening to everyone among the chinese people and that means every chinese there is quality of a major issue you can't just dismiss it finished deal with this point about. where this wealth comes from and how they use it to spend abroad the problem of corruption it's basically systemic and the chinese government under xi jinping has

done a lot to deal with corruption and you quoted the two million figure all for all there is also a different set of figures the so-called tiger. tigers are basically mice minister and above rang senior leaders in the chinese government by the west and. about just below two hundred tigers has been brought down the chinese state media to figures of closer to about seven hundred among the two hundred or seven hundred thinkers. neighing theory who are people who had previously worked with president xi and why is it so difficult to name even one single one of those who remember them you don't know who is. two hundred and seven hundred star but you do you you know you can know who they are how do you identify who is in what count we can look at their careers the parties going on with their career structures of who are who have worked with president xi when he was in position is

that people around treasury of not being locked up for corruption of steve position can you dispute that do you have a do you have a person that i don't have a view on ok let's take let's go i want to go back to something limited when you said that. the amount of wealth of china in the last ten years was over twenty one twenty two has doubled or believe the g.d.p. has done as well there are a lot of chinese billionaires taking about attack savings i'm wondering how about so ok in a socialist country supposedly with the you define a socialist you know baby how do you define socialism i think social this is just a slogan in reality it's the chinese way of doing things i'm glad we agree it's just a slogan for the chinese ok let's go to the audience who've been waiting very patiently raise your hands wait for a microphone to come to the lady here thank you very much i am i have been cut off from my speaking to my family since beginning of two thousand and seventeen

just like the many sauza in south living overseas and my question to you mr liu does it really bother or concern you that the country that you made whole after every now and saying you are taiwanese sits the ship is criminalizing the entire. people and implementing policies that major vested in news organizations law makers and legal scholars have described as crimes against humanity thank you first of all i have weaker friends. if it's valid that there are things which are not properly done of course is not good of course is not good. earlier you said that it was propaganda for me when you hear these stories you realize it's probably not best to

dismiss everything as propaganda i use propaganda because you are you abrasive aggressive way of addressing a story so it wasn't about the substance you just are not my style ok that's fine i can live with the substance of it is no is the only what's going on she calls because this is somebody i'm just seeing this lady said i don't know i don't know victims wants to jump in victor for this. we go i would treat you as a brother or sister the same as a tree the majority of people i'm on the way people secondly if i could give you one piece of advice. if any of your brothers and sisters their relatives are communist party members in china then by party discipline they are not allowed to go to the mosque if they want to go to a mosque fine resign from the communist party of china so the government in china has a disappearing if you are a communist party member of china don't call to a mosque. to do it as i do to ask you

a follow up on this there are no reports which haven't been really denied by the chinese government that the communist party that you talk about is sending han chinese people to live in we get. to watch them twenty four seven as they eat drink pray is that fake news as well there is no problem in believing i have many islamic friends you have your friends your muslim friends i get it not how well you have people living in your house i just still will because a lot of we do right now however if any way in china misuses as a pretext to split away from china that's a cry for their people's living rooms in. the communist party and i'm not aware of i've never been inside the family of unfortunately a lot of chinese communist party members have let's go back to the audience let's take the lady there in the green scarf about you sad. doesn't people wanted to syria and the fad and my question to you is how did you let some to go syria too

far with such a strict beriah and one hundred turns there are one checkpoints and even so people can't go on town to another town and so to street surveillance how do you let something go to the syria big to do want to talk about most of these we all fighters now syria previously and currently in afghanistan have smuggled themselves out of china so in that action itself is a violation of chinese law again there are smuggling activities we goes out of china through myanmar through to malaysia for examples of this is a problem only to china but to china's neighboring countries and respond to your who are trying to get your take on this this all you know what terrorism is a credible argument in your view where you self made the point that every country has to deal with this extremism the question is how you do that i think this idea that you need to create this more and more. nation where ethnic

differences is not tolerated where cultural difference is not tolerated and where religious activity is not tolerated i think this is where the lack of a better word rabbit or that the chinese cross party has gone in where i'm not quite sure how we can get out of where the off ramp really is because do you want to keep like a million weekers in these camps for ever or the next five years or when you release them i need to go back to the audience but very briefly victor how long how long this comes first of all i do not agree with the premise of your question there are more mosques being built as we speak there probably any other religious establishment in china let's go back to do this lady here in the black church in a second row china still has a poor social security net and working. and working conditions of the poor workers are still. a problem in china and i want to ask how can these conditions be improved charles there is

a shortfall in the social security paul there's no question one of the ways that that has been addressed has been the allocation of temp and cent of the shareholding of stevo enterprises many of which are listed companies either in new york or hong kong or in china and two are located into the social security paul isn't the problem again come out of the idea of socialism slogan or not in the beginning of the show you were telling me all india wishes they could spend what we spend on defense without really something to brag about when you spend i think five percent of your g.d.p. on health and two percent on education which is lower than what sudan spends on health and education as a proportion of value that's pretty embarrassing for a country your size see all the world think calling us a socialist i think i am doing the poor people when i really help them i think i think health education spending should be more in interest hasn't been there it's been increasing significantly but why is so low in a country that claims to care about the working class it could be it could be

spending more sure let's take some more questions and a little lady in the red shirt my question is do you think that the rise in populism and the economic slowdown in the west is possibly a threat to china the rise of habilis and reap some of the in a political sense is a threat to the whole world because what we have in terms of the us for example and even europe is a challenge to the rise of asia overall it's not china because if you look at the two hundred eighty components for your i phone two hundred seventy something are made in asia and assembled in china and its efficiency is one hands because of the market size so this rise of populism in trying to move the supply chain from asia back to the united states it is a threat it's a threat to the whole world not just a. china because the supply chain and this market has been very beneficial for the whole world this is how the west including the u.s.

and europe has been able to get lower cost of living more and cheaper goods ok let's go to a gentleman who was waiting with that i lost contact. all families says early two thousand and seventeen and i recently found out my siblings and they are in the so-called concentration camps. i don't know are they still alive or not and secondly i don't know my mother is. she is well. not allowed to talk communicate with them and also why they lot a lot to my mother related to me. why my mom must suffer from not seeing and hearing from their source just my question that the statement i have no idea has let me out let me turn into

a question when you hear such stories on you concerned as a citizen of china as to what's good might be going on in your country. and when you go about trying to do anything about it find out more about the subject. ok let's go let's go back to the audience i said about personally do you believe that china's notion of human rights is fundamentally different and if so how would you define china's human rights policy good question i think cultural difference there . in terms of human rights for example. cultural differences and i actually concrete circumstances there was a lot of complained about the violation of human rights to force one family per child but if that policy was not implemented china would be over two billion people now who feed them who are educate them so there are concrete circumstances and very pragmatic issues that have to be addressed ok when the bait i said if you will

stand up and get the money do you think it is good practice for the chinese government to have full control over the information its citizens do online. to take a sneaky peek at the rest of the internet when your new k. no i don't have i don't have any problems because i don't take sneaky peeks of things that i'm not interested in ok so but as in terms of the question of the chinese government control the flow of information i think there should be some measure of control including in the united states but total control in china that should be the lesson that should be reduced you'd like to see reduced and you think it will be. in some in some cases it has been. let me ask you is we're out of time but i do want to ask you this you were born in taiwan capitalist society you moved to the u.s. as a child you studied n.y.u. in princeton you worked at the u.n. but in one thousand nine hundred eighty five i believe you gave up your taiwanese

passport and your u.s. green card to become a citizen of the people's republic what made you give up all those liberties and freedoms and move to china. i felt quite oppressed in the u.s. i participated with martin luther king in the civil rights march in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight well and. against the war in vietnam and i have one of my stellar students of princeton beaten to death by rednecks just because he was trying me and you thought china was the place to go to get mono i just thought if they don't want to chinese i'll just be chinese and you participate in the m.l.k. protests civil rights nine hundred sixty eight if you think those protests could ever happen in china. i was actually shocked at how it took two hundred years for the u.s. to be addressing the issue of blacks sitting on the back of busses the chinese mind in the time and you might get those protests but nora well i hope china doesn't

have to to have protest for these things to be about is not allowed at the moment the point to make you called protest the owner no way that he's going to avoid even though no the this there's plenty of protests in terms of even when the stock market crashed you know people are protesting charles liu we'll have to leave it there thank you so much for joining me on the show thanks to our audience here in the oxford union thanks to our panel thanks for watching thank you charles liu with us.

we have around ten million people across north america on a flat at the moment part of that is g.t. the snow melt temperatures starting to rise around the northern plains around the midwest but we have also had some heavy rain the legacy of the right now down towards the southeast in kona still see some or all the weather around the panhandle northern parts of florida pushing up pain to alabama seeing some wet weather could see some rain to into georgia further north we're going to get into double figures for washington d.c. say seven celsius there for new york but still subzero in ottawa and also in winnipeg five celsius that in chicago is generally going to be dry we are by phrasing the temperature is adding to that thought and twenty celsius the san francisco fun to drive on the western side of the country getting up to around

twenty six an ally cools off a little here but best not a bad twenty one in seattle as that warmth and that's what the south east of kona still a fair bit of cloud here thirteen in atlanta easing out of the way for florida as you make our way through the next day i'll say that wessel whether. you can see just around the gulf of mexico still some blobby showers longer spells affright clear service it go on through monday the caribbean is dry. in the next episode of earth royce nikki clark to enter greenpeace crew on a voyage through the widdle sea to highlight the importance of protecting this fragile antarctic ecosystem against an expanding list of manmade threats beneath the surface of this magnificent desolation is just t.v. with live. music it's all the remote movies on antarctic century on

al-jazeera. this is al-jazeera. alone down in jordan this is the out of their news hour live from coming up in the next sixty minutes. new zealand's prime minister comforts members of the muslim community after fifty people were shot and killed in two mosque attacks if we can make each other feel safe. elsewhere around the world calls grow louder to stamp out hate crimes. also ahead a sideline brings devastation to zimbabwe most.