another scenario another moment cause morsi was. elected civilian president on bit of a share has a very very different that that you know good to remind the viewers of all of our things are seem similar but what's interesting as we hear from unconfirmed reports that. there are other people from the military are actually working with the south was one of them is very controversial issue as the director of intelligence and this gentleman was actually accused of work of meeting the israelis counterpart in last the munich conference a few months ago and there was a lot of criticism that also he was close to the immunity and egyptians so i think you know what you are hearing from court to not only what is his whereabouts or his he's with but with that with with the minister of defense now so they are sort of people now working together the leadership of this. one assumes that might be an

issue then for protesters a transitional administration or any sort of move that leaves those sorts of figures who haven't been very popular. in power even if they say this is for a temporary transitional period as we hear so far from the sudan the professional association which is the assumed to be behind this peaceful. demonstrations they actually made it very clear that they don't want and you wonder from those who are working with the previous to the previous regime with ahmed rashid so they actually i don't expect that they will accept actually those individuals should be running the transitional period you think they don't they were nuts and they will know they will not be accepted and that which which open the door before morsi now is maybe confrontation will be imposing using power against civilians. but what we hear so far the the messages want us to stay outside

in the streets until they hear what is actually respond to their needs and their demands there has been this sentiment from the streets of sudan and the middle ranking. brass of the army is perceived differently from the top brass in reality is there any split. we saw this in the last few days we showed those were so-called second line of the military they were nice to the civilians do it in touch with the civilians this is underground but we are not sure about the leadership level who are those actually running the show who aren't making decisions if we compare now from what what we hear so far about the four individuals now assumed to be behind the coup and we assume according to the and confirmed reports there will be. i would say behind the developments if we if those people and individuals are in charge i'm sure the division did exist but they

controlled because those of the second line of the military the those are belonging to the middle class people and those people basically they live they are suffering like other million of sudan is from profession and so that is so they are close to the two it is either of those who are the first line that assume they will have a job with the second one which will cause more trouble to them and to the sudan situation i mean could this lead to a split within the army or or all indications that the army as an institution is still. united i think it's made lead but it will not appear sometime soon we may see the kind of split we may see this kind of division but i'm not sure to see it in a matter of days it would appear to gradually. statement of the those you know behind the coup was not responding to the need or the demands of the sudanese in the streets. in your estimation are we looking at

a sort of nine hundred eighty five or nine hundred eighty nine who scenario eighty five scenario being one in which so all of the. lead a coup that led to some kind of civilian process and elections eighteen i obviously led to opinion of many sudanese greater dictatorship i think none of them i think this this coup will be different simply because it's coming with the general context in the region i think people there are inspired by what's happened in the arab world the demand is different the demand is reasonable i think it seems the level of awareness education of those who are involved are different from previous. coups so i would i would suggest that we will see different scenario of what happened in sudan to what happened b.v. asleep maybe just to bring people into the full picture of what life is like in sudan. tell us a little bit about the daily suffering that assumably is driving people on to the

streets you know sammy. is one of the richest country in the arab world it was it's been called the provider of the food to the arab world it was terms of results it was resources we learned in the schools i remember that when we study sudan it we were told that sudan is the basket of food for the other books and this is we grow and that in our schools not to sudan and other countries yet is one of the poorest writes one of the poor six point five percent i think the poverty rate almost half the country so this tells you how much actually the authoritarianism destroyed the country destroyed the human capital destroyed the human resources destroyed the every to sources so that let's not forget this thirty years under bashir sudan has been divided into two countries sudan lost the source of energy oil is being given to the to the south so that so basically this fills you how much politics was

really corrupted at the take into consideration the future of sudan the people who will educated nation if you look at sudan is in the world million of sudan is they have participating in different countries and building other countries and they are not allowed to building their own country because of their way of governing and how to do so this tells you how much actually sudan samah sudan is pretty they have a price and those who are one of them we just hear from the two men he said we need we need a better market a spec that life this is not something really big while to demand so this tells you how much corrupted politics was and so down in the last thirty years even before unfortunately to make that kind of change now that perhaps for a test as well though it is going to be quite a complicated process is you know after thirty years in power. or bashir in the. party is very well entrenched in every facet of life saluted some of us not forget

they destroy every potential political party you don't touch i mean and instead of seeing our political parties political leaders elite discussing the future of sudan now the only solution should come from the military establishment that tells you how much the. previous government destroyed the political life in sudan and that is that's what happened in other arab countries you know when the destroying the potential of having political elite political party political engagement when they close the door before any kind of engagement of the people when they when they prevent people to have more participation that will be the outcome we'll see the only institution capable to work capable to decide is the military establishment i don't think so this will lead to a very peaceful change in such situations because basically it's a circle repeating itself and it's a first a vicious circle as you say and i'm not sure this will actually lead to. peaceful

change which also that his wish to happen quickly. i guess time is going to tell absolutely and it's still early hours for this well a parent who is an unserious thanks so much all going to come back and talk to you in a bit so stay with us but let's just take a quick look at all manner of bashir his leadership has been defined by conflict and violence prior to taking over as leader he had a long career in the military and rose to the rank of colonel that position to him to lead a bloodless coup in one thousand nine hundred nine and take power during the twenty one year old civil war between the north and south in two thousand and three several ethnic groups in darfur launched a rebellion against his government accusing it of oppressing black africans a government backed crackdown on those ethnic groups led to more than three hundred thousand people being killed the international criminal court later put out a warrant for

a bashir is arrest on charges of genocide crimes against humanity and war crimes which he denies but despite that he's never been tried by the courts and he went on to win consecutive elections in two thousand and ten and two thousand and fifteen rima bass is a journalist and writer joins us on skype from khartoum good to have you with us it's still a very skittish sketchy situation how are people taking in how are people. perceiving the sort of moves or movements going on in the streets of khartoum today . people are protesting i just came back from the army headquarters people are all over the streets there protesting marilyn's are joining sitting in front of the army headquarters people are adamant to stay here you can see some of them holding signs that we basically that we're going to stay here no matter what happens because our demands have not been met so there's a lot of uncertainty but people are adamant to stay there until there is something

clear. do people say people are celebrating one assumes that's because they believe this is the end of all of this year's rule. yes they do. we still don't know what's happening i mean it's been six hours since the army radio station but until now they have not made the statement so it's been six hours on or anything there's a lot of us are talking about we don't know for sure that all of this here is gone . what do people expect or want the army to announce next. they expect the army to announce a leader so as a leader for the country or at least a transitional army leader so they expect that the army is going to be in place but also the expectations are to meet the demands of the people is to announce that

a civilian government is going to be taking over power and is going to be part of the transitional government so i think this is what. i'm sorry what if the transitional administration is led by figures such as the current first vice president a minister of defense our the. that seems to be an scenario that's emerging doesn't it well. yes but until now we're not sure i mean there are a lot of rumors on the streets people are talking about you know former army officials and government officials arrested so there are a lot of rumors but nothing is certain until now. as far as you as you can tell you said you came back from the streets are people do people feel

that they're free to move around without any sort of interference from or any restrictions from the military. yes yes people are the streets are full their form of cars they're full of people walking people are crossing the bridges on foot so i think every one wants their street started now because they want to witness this historical moments. tell us a little bit about the aspirations of what sort of new era in sudan which people like to see what does it look like. people want a democratic government they want us to billion i think this is where the challenge convent the army has been in power for so long there used to be they're used to being in power but people are looking for a transitional government rent a transitional civilian government so i think people do expect that things are not

going to be easy but it's going to be a lot of work that it's going to be a very challenging environment in the next few months but i think people are ready for the fight because they have been fighting for a very long time and they feel that this is the beginning of the end and they have to continue fighting. what draws people to come out onto the streets what is it that they're suffering from. a. political deadlock having the same president for thirty years most of the protesters are young and also most of them are under thirty basically so they have only seen our best year for their whole life and they have only seen the country struggle and just you know suffer from one problem to the earth two thousand and eighteen was severely difficult for everyone people were standing in line for days and our vote to get access to you know cash in the ballots people were. really economically for a long time two thousand and eighteen was very difficult here so i think people

just are coming out because they know that you know that the war was a better life and they know that this government does not have the solutions to fix the country's problems. he said people want democracy they want civilian rule what is the state and condition of civil society of political parties they haven't had a lot of space to operate freely in a long time. and. definite more it's a huge challenge because we because in a way we don't have the institutions that preserve and protect and that's the holy and i hold them off the so i think in the next few months we are going to be struggling to build a state institutions we're going to be struggling to to build a stable society because the civil society has been suffering from strengthening civic space for a very long time so they do know that it's going to be a struggle and it's going to be a very long struggle and this is where the hard work is going to comment but i

think it's also out of the question isn't because people are excited because people see that you know something happening is something different is going to happen also i think right now people are listening and they articulate on the grounds of the students professionals association which is representing the coalition of freedom and change and that s.p. is saying that even like that basically we want a civilian rule and i think people are articulating the demands of this which has been representing and guided them throughout the south of this movement since december. all right thank you so much for your analysis on that rima joining us on the phone is nephi's a battery who is currently at a protest in call too good to have you with us first of all tell us your thoughts and feelings what appears to be a very historic moment in sudan's history. shantytowns

. nafisa can you hear me and i cannot characters from other research you can have me also asking you to tell me a little bit about your thoughts and feelings at this point. either yes nessie so you're a protester you're in the middle of protests describe to me the thoughts and feelings of protestors when it's not a process if people are happy they're all going to calmly still saying the things calls are fired i see a support there so everyone is watching. who is sent to listen to the announcement . by the army so as far as they see it this is a little processed what is the gathering on the streets for them now then a celebration. it's not very clear and some chant here you

run the line is that it's broken. we're trying to do it for they're also looking for some. little thing that can call. to go there and say i'm to the person that's the government by the army and i'm just picking. ok hopefully you can still hear me what do people want to hear from the army they want to make sure that it's not free. i want to hear from you one thomas to see it protect the people not the people who don't want another school. who want to see not just the one. that was said by the f.d.a. . which includes parts from the miniseries.

the indication is. that some key military figures may be may be taking power in a transitional arrangement would that be acceptable no one here trying to rent out what happened happened in one thousand nine hundred five and. you know that the same thing will happen again people are not accepting that. is there any civilian woman to get old little sister who is in a position to take over. on six hundred ten. now if she is not accepted by the people it is the rumors now around going around another rumor saying another army officer. there was the thing was done from my father who doesn't have people who want to kind of heaven. who do the people

want to take over in this period than we want our mates to be there but he wants our four year unfortunately it's paid attention to all. of us obviously into the structure of the last ten projects here are some sense it's still a version of it to come but it comes from creativity which includes i from the army i continue this number has there was some. thank you very much for the face of what you are on there right now. they are going to do that i thank you for now maybe try and get a clearer line back to you in a little bit let's continue this discussion with jobs away or here in the studio and i had you i think the sort of sentiment were repeatedly hearing from people is they they don't want the military in the picture at all they have this experience already the military one transition time and then run the show over and the only

interesting is that expectation it's not realistic because. the interesting thing about what's happening is that the people want and ask the support of the military and then they say we don't want you to run. a transition period that is a contradiction. i can't to blame or no one kind of blame actually the people because people they have little choices to make because there is no political elite no political parties no credible political party no political leadership a credible political leadership so they want to there and ask for a military to help them but i'm not sure that you know the outcome of the expected statement well bring happiness to the sudanese i think that it will bring more it seems to me it's similar to what happened now that the people there wanted. to go and he went into the new phase of uncertainty i would argue that saddam is getting to that period was there's an interesting point sammy here i think it's important to mention that we used to hear we used to have the news about who's in sudan or

always overnight this time it happens in the middle of a day that something really interesting what's you know hope to bring different experience to the sudan its. image and the condition of the civil society there well the question then is is there really an alternative to tree led transitional period. to be honest it's very i don't know that is actually an alternative because basically the previous government destroyed destroyed the structure of the social structure political structure i mean auriemma do let me interrupt you for a second because we're getting reports this is according to reuters news agency. of bashir the sudanese president has stepped down just to recap we're getting reports from reuters news agency that armored bashir the president of sudan

has stepped down and see if we can go to him. morgan our correspondent in khartoum him if you can hear me can you tell us anything more about these reports that the president has in fact now stepped down. well from what we do know that is that there has been awful statement yet we are waiting for a statement from the army and the military they said that they will be announcing a statement that has been going on for four hours now north and has yet been made the head of the military the head of national security and the head of police are currently in a meeting people are the speculation is that they're trying to figure out who will replace president bashir most of his close aides and convey the confidence and the head of the acting head of the ruling party at her own have been arrested so it's very clear that at the moment here is in a very tight spot so he doesn't have any option but to hand over power to the military but no statement has been made yet people are expecting that the military will come out and announce that president i'm going to be serious thirty year rule

is over and that they will be taking over and leading the country in a transitional face right now or this this report apparently is being sourced in reference to the provincial minister to a local television station saying the arm of bashir has stepped down. and that consultations are underway to try and set up a transitional council. how credible weather informs the sort of level of sourcing we'll have to make very careful about these kind of reports because since the second started in front of the army h.q. people have been saying that president obama at this year has that down and that there are consultations and that they are talks of who should replace him because they don't know if a civilian will be able to do the job or if it should be the job of the military but what we do know right now is that over the past twenty four hours president i wouldn't be here has not said a statement nothing from him nobody knows where he is and nobody knows what kind of

state he is in but what we do know is that the moment the army has taken over the airport they have taken over the television the television station and they have taken over the national radio as their people are waiting for them to make their announcement yes they are consultations going on it's not clear who the consultations are about who will be replacing president bashir or about if the person they have ready is going to be accepted by all of the people who have been leading the ports as the sudanese professional association said that they don't want and military person to be in charge of the transitional government so it seems like these consultations that are currently happening is to try to decide whether a military person should be the one in charge or in charge of a transitional government or if they should try to look for a civilian no name has been thrown out yet nobody knows what to expect in the coming hours but we are yet to wait for an official statement saying that president ahmed bashir has stepped down and that the military is taking over in a transitional government. when we talk about consultations are underway do we have any idea who's involved in those consultations. well for me the head of the police

the head of national security and the head of military top government official stuff security officials top military officials all are in a meeting closed their meeting trying to discuss the way forward as the themes again we wouldn't really know what the outcome of that meeting ends and we hear this statement and till we know what content from the military we know at the moment as i've said before is that the television and the radio stations are both signs of a coup they are being taken over by the military so at the moment it seems like the military is in control of everything our sudan capital khartoum most of the streets when you go out you will find military trucks you find most of the main three blocks by the military except for certain routes which protesters have been using to pour into the army h.q. to say that has happened and that the military is now in control so again lots of questions to be answered nothing clear and so the statement from the minister it's read out on national television in a few minutes or i've heard so much here i'm sure going to come back to you in

a bit of a let's recap here the news that's coming in reuters news agency saying sudan's president omar al bashir has stepped down now earlier there were reports that the sudanese army is deployed troops around the defense ministry on the few roads bridges television station radio in khartoum there are reports the head of the ruling party in the former vice president have been detained thousands have flocks of the streets of the capital and join the sit in outside the military headquarters that protest has been taking place since saturday earlier state television so the armed forces would make an important announcement all of this follows months of protests against bush is thirty year rule. let's take a look at bashir his leadership has been defined by conflict and violence prior to taking over as leader he had a long career in the military and rose to the rank of colonel that position to him to lead a bloodless coup in one nine hundred eighty nine and take power during the twenty

one year civil war between the north and south in two thousand and three several ethnic groups in darfur launched a rebellion against his government accusing it of oppressing black africans the government backed crackdown on those ethnic groups that more than three hundred thousand people being killed the international criminal court later put out a warrant for the shares arrest on charges of genocide crimes against humanity and war crimes which he denies but despite that he's never been tried by the calls he went home to win consecutive elections in two thousand and ten and two thousand and fifteen. susi adam is a journalist joining us now on the phone from khartoum good to have you with us tell us the reaction to this news that we've just called in again this is according to reuters news agency saying that the president bashir has stepped down

yes yes oh yes also confirmed on a new. television channel that she has stepped down and that if she fled the country to saudi arabia this is still to be. seen here in the courtroom right now on the c o n f three where like thousands of protesters blocking the street. of victory i can see also police are joining the protests here on the streets right now. if that is the case do people know who's in charge of the country then at this point if the president is reported to have fled to saudi arabia. army chief her chief of staff in a meeting. deciding who's going to lead on this you know.

until the election but it's also rumors that there are also the former. the minister of defense within the bashir regime is going to be leading the traditional. government which is also still like on social media sources here. who is going to run the country. for the next period of time until the election of twenty twenty one that's all to scenario be acceptable to protesters but the military leads the transitional period especially a figure like all the banal for was very much associated with i think especially military leading is not the issue but the issue is even also because he's very he's known to be loyal to president bush even he was his minister of defense during this time so this things up on there isn't it. thousands and thousands of protests but.

the protests just came to be army headquarters to join the police during the to join the club the army and to ask for their protection this is actually asking to something to this regime but now the fact that it now has leading rumors that even be leading that's going to be a problem will not be acceptable by the protesters in tonight to people who feel like the revolution has succeeded. i think the feeling it's like. here that people think it is and has succeeded but they also think the job is not yet done they think it's it's actually time now to remain in front of the army headquarters until all their demands are met but thousands and thousands like this number i haven't seen this number before heading to the army headquarters i've been

trying to reach the army headquarters for forty minutes it takes this route twenty minutes to cross i'm not even close to new street. that's interesting just clarify for us you said you've been trying to reach the army had pulled his for forty minutes but you come is that because of an unprecedented number of people turning out to go to the army headquarters yes yes this number of people i haven't seen the number ever in close to the same time before carse people people motor bicycle on the greg says people like underfoot it's just everywhere are people i would i expect that they're going to follow i tended to see like the field people were just i think we had caught us right now give us an idea of the crowds are we seeing the young the old men women children and just since we come i'm

seventy the young the old the very young the old you know you can see. people include you know for joining the protests people resign. i mean it's all over for you. you know this really are the majority are young young people but everybody is joining the process what i can see right now i will then like to add to your own. child heading to the headquarters so everybody is out. and why they going to the army headquarters in particular. to start a great. victory over the. break. because it was these people did not join the army recorded before they can protect their areas but now they feel like it's time to join the brothers and

sisters. in front of the army headquarters. are they going simply to celebrate though they have plans to stay there until they get this kind of transitional arrangement that they want. to post on social media asking for. a screen. saying. my prayers won't be in front of the army headquarters that's. just to clarify for viewers who might not be familiar with some of this terminology the call that you have engineers for protesters to pry juma prize meaning friday prayer as outside the army headquarters that's obviously tomorrow so people are prepared to stay there until at least tomorrow that's that's what appears to be the situation

right now we're going to see some kind of makeshift camp arise you know along the lines of maybe what we saw at one point in cairo during the protests against dictatorship that we may see some kind of protest makeshift city arise. so this is a similar situation this is happening in egypt as you just mentioned that. step down. not being met but i've seen i've seen the street protests that are trying to outsmart. the liberal. media asking people to leave. until all the demands are made so i never was i don't think the situation happening in egypt still repeating it for two. you said you've seen an

unprecedented number of people a number of people you've never seen in the history that you can remember of khartoum coming out and they coming out on the street and they're all heading to the army headquarters and he said there were so many people you can't even get there for forty minutes i imagine i still am still going on the street and still can't get there because this is like a fuse number of people cars people everywhere. i imagine there's a lot of potential for interaction between that sort of number of people and the army what does that interaction look like. i mean the army from the first day the army's support is one percent of this protest and i think it's going to be an extension of tax. unless something new happens.

the army's been supportive. i'm sure i was just i wanted to see for myself. and there are now but i think you have to still not get there we can time to get to the army headquarters but along the way are you passing army checkpoints are you passing army present really no any checkpoint so far right what are people chanting what are people saying are they are they cheering for anything. they are cheering people are cheering people are happy some people seem to. like all the people especially. if they can find the word describe the feeling. for what are they saying give us a flavor. of

people chosing one of the old i mean for them holding on to their mothers. or heading to the army headquarters if you can still hear me as soon as he i'd like you very much to give us an idea of what the charm to is from the street what people are calling for. asking people. happy that. she would you have ended people who want to develop this country people want to be receptive in their own country people are looking to develop it in fine fettle just for themselves to be able to provide for their families without having to leave the country and work in another country most people. like for freedom. will be. forever the

many freedoms. freedom ceased. this would not be possible for me to even speak to you right now. without. being in fear of my life. in the past. week or so so people were looking for that looking for freedom looking for a new live in this country to do just that. in the cities. we've been to blow up. the people. and to give. you know. friendship with me being conceived by to be strong again to fight again as a sudanese to be. lighter and i think in generally to

people living and wishing for the better. you sudan respect each and everyone equally i imagine you've lived much of your life if not most of it under the rule of amr bashir what does this potential moment mean to you and to protestors like you. i mean. it's one thing. that's braver than i am and that. they were going out. putting their lives. to say. something my generation. older than mine. to this is just. people had enough people enough.

it's just for me personally i feel like i live to see this moment. of being. released as a way we should. what is given people a spirit of defiance. and i myself yes certainly. thank you very much for your time in describing what's going on there will come back to protesters later well as we've been mentioning the military says it has to make an announcement this is an image of the army logo on sudanese state television which has come up in the last hour. my job's wherry is with me here in our studios a fessor of contemporary middle east history at the heart of university it's very fascinating matthew to listen to protesters there on the street and it sounds like something massive is emerging around the army headquarters in cars who. i think

there is sort of time to capitalize on the time because they know tomorrow is a friday and there is a time to people together and they want a traditional data show that if it will come out anywhere you were also i mean. that's the time where you kind of vest in where you can push but the pressure on the bulletin i think that is if if what since you were saying pride that the people they want to get as much as they can number of people and this will put pressure on those who are making a decision now and if they stay until tomorrow this means they will change the whole game as expected but if you go back to look at what's what's what who are actually expected to run the sure. there is a lot of i would say in certainty because it shows us that you know the the outcome of these thirty years in sudan that there is an open

leadership a political leadership to come and help to lead the country in transition time you know the constitution is not helping there is no advice the president of as a business well appointed just a few days ago and his minister of defense in hell himself he's not even civilian that still has you how much things are really bad. in sudan this also tells you about all of the all of the news now you know is talking about actual military personnel is actually deciding or meeting to decide about the future of sudan that's another failure that's the other out really a worse outcome of the. these thirty years and the sheer that there is no potential political leadership civilian political leadership who can decide about the future of the country and again it goes back to the same route to the summit crisis that military is running the show they decide about the future of the country what's

interesting this time is that there is a very strong voice from within the ng sudan is those young generation actually who was born and lived under appreciated they are rejecting all of this and they are saying we need a civilian transition. period run by politicians rather than by military now how this really could happen that will be actually determined by you know next a few hours. toward extent is this public turnout spontaneous and tallest and is it well organized we are hearing in the last few months there is a so-called the so than the professional association which basically. organizing the first and they have they are sort to dividing themselves into different to groups and media support because support and they are actually. encouraging people

to go out and to demonstrate the slogan is very clear they are demanding for political change they want to end the military them a nation of politics in sudan i think that that's what we hear so far and i think that is what we even the last a few hours their demands you know and their accountants with it is very clear that actually calling people to go to the military had a quarter and stay there don't move until we hear from the. you know the statement from the military or from those who are basically inform the sudanese about the future of sudan that also is actually in the minds of what happened actually this i mean it's actually the number of people. it's pushing towards the chain that is the reason the number of jillian's pushed actually would have little or who are behind him to actually push him to step down i thought that's actually what we see in sudan today how much is all is there between the sudanese professional association

and the traditional political parties which are supposed to be you know the force that drives trade doesn't seem it doesn't seem those people are politicized rather than they are actually they have a very clear vision that things should be changed is that an issue if there's a lack of coordination with the traditional i think or maybe there is mistrust so i mean they don't trust even those who can be called the political elite because those the political elite if you look at their actions the last four months they are very shy they are not really striving behind the curtain behind the curve they're not pushing actually enough they were just watching observing the other than pushing towards the change i think that's the reason why you see this i would call it what you called an academy of the middle class people who are actually the heat and suffered a lot they are behind all of this movements so in a sense this is a rebellion against the entire elite in the country not just against the government

seems so yes against the education houses and what we saw as julia i think that is the second live out of spring where those two nations two out of nations they learned the lesson and they don't trust anymore politicians or who used to be part of the previous legions segues nicely into my next question what does this mean for the rest of the arab world can we consider this arab spring two point zero or would that be too much of a hasty conclusion simply drawing upon what's happened in algeria and sudan now i would i would argue that the second wave because at least some allies will work in academia and work in the region extensively i think it doesn't spring has not finished obvious there was a lot of course. what's happening i think these are the two countries are the two james tried to manage themselves as much as they can the last ten years but they failed to learn their lesson and the lesson was very clear is that a spawn to the demands of the people they assume the those who are running the two

countries they assume they can control the demands of the people they can hijack the future of the people i think those two months approved that the demands of the people it's high it's unlikely to be you know tackled and faced if there is no justification and the political will to change the life in those two countries the pressure from sudan is now is pushing to to. use to be arab leaders to be out of the seat thank you so much my jube stay with us here though in the studio we've got zach verse and he's a fellow at the brookings institution he's also a former obama administration official also the author of a new book on sudan and south sudan joins us on skype from djibouti good to have you with us how do you think. the world is watching this right now.

so. how do you think western capitals will be viewing what's happening in sudan right now. with great interest of course and i think in fact there's a very important role for western capitals right now. in order to see to nudge sudan in the right direction at this really critical moment i think there are some steps the united states in particular in austria or other western governments can take they could step out and make clear to those now potentially leading the transition if in fact bashir confirms he step down that they will move to lift existing punitive measures and offer potential incentives should be in full transition an inclusive process emerge from here that's of course no guarantee and of course we need to keep an eye on the potential for continued violence in the capital and thus i think it's

a really critical moment that has often been the observation that when one compares how western capitals have dealt with regimes with not the nicest recollected in human rights and democracy. if one compares the u.s. stance towards for example what's happening in venezuela with the u.s. stance all western governments stance towards countries going through the arab spring if we can consider this still part of that the the u.s. position all the westernization often a lot more cautious it's not a fair analysis in your opinion. now it may be a fair analysis i think in particular with sudan for too long i would argue the west adopted a singular approach of tresor pressure and isolation against sudan and of course given the repressive regime that was justifiable and warranted but it failed to

produce the desired results it failed to produce meaningful change within the regime or to dislodge the regime and now this is sudan's moment of change finally after thirty years and as i said i think western governments can step up now and make a more positive contribution but they'll have to act fast what kind of more positive contribution would you like to see them make. well you know should should this announcement be confirmed first of all the extraordinary protests and the people of sudan gathered in the capital city over the last few days deserve a chance to celebrate they've earned the right after thirty years of political darkness to celebrate to celebrate this extraordinary moment but about ninety minutes after they're going to have to get to work because holding this country together is holding this country together and initiating a meaningful transition is going to be as difficult

a challenge as the one they've been facing in recent years and to that end i don't think western governments can determine the outcome but i think that some tools that they can put in play not right they can lift. again should and should the leadership new leadership that emerges be willing to undertake the necessary reforms to initiate a constitutional process that leads to internationally monitored elections should the new leaders whoever steps up be ready to take those steps western governments can respond they can clear sudan's outstanding debt they can lift existing state sanctions including the state sponsor of terrorism does it nation should the government continue to comply they can offer new development program and they cannot for additional commercial and investment and most importantly i think again the circumstances have to be right these leaders were ever emerges needs to take positive steps but western governments could also send high level delegations right

secretary of state might fall could make a visit to sudan u.s. congress could support the point of a new ambassador to sudan the first since one thousand nine hundred seven so i think there are some carrots that could be in play could be put in play right now both to sort of nudge sudan in the right directions and how to sudanese to lead toward in terms of a transition. and thanks so much for your analysis on. a quick recap now it's just past ten am in khartoum reuters news agency reporting sudan's president omar bashir has stepped down earlier there were reports the sudanese army has deployed troops around the defense ministry on q. roads and bridges as well as institutions in the capital khartoum there are reports the head of the ruling party the former vice president have been detained thousands have flocked to the streets of the capital and joined

a sit in outside the military headquarters that protest has been taking place in saturday expecting an announcement from the military soon earlier the military said it had an announcement to make this is the image of the army logo it's on sudanese state television and it came up in the last hour. covered sudan extensively joins me now in our studio here how do you how unprecedented is this you've covered sudan for for a long time we've never seen this kind of scene even in the last few months of protests right is quite a and extraordinary moment now in the modern history of sudan are we expecting july bill for to hold one hand he's the top commander of the ground forces there are reports that he's now inside the televisions building to make that important announcement but this is quite a fast moving situation on the ground we we need to understand exactly who's behind

this military push is it the senior commander of the military establishment people like. who has been appointed by. as minister of defense in the latest. government trish shuffle he's been very close to him is a solid go show is the intelligence chief involved or are we talking about junior explain to us why that's key whether it's the top brass or whether it's more junior officers because this is what we've seen over the last few few days at the peak of the of the end to government protests on the streets we've seen for the first time signs of strained relations between the junior command of the military establishment in sudan young officers disillusioned with the political establishment providing protection to the civilians and saying enough in a is enough and we've seen some of them talking on camera and saying that they are

determined to fight to the till the end to protect the civilians on the other hand you have. him at our bureau for example the minister of defense. who has been making statements saying that he is committed to defend the country to defend president or model this year to defend the integrity of sudan for example one of the most powerful man in those in sudan is the head of the powerful national intelligence and security agency in sudan so whoever is behind this will give us an indication to what was the fact that we're still waiting for that announcement by the military could be an indication that the situation on the ground has not been settled apparently they're still after some of the entourage of a model bashir they would like to ensure that they control all the key institutions before coming out in public and saying what is happening we don't know at this particular moment whether these officers who took over are now the ones who are

said to bashir you have to step aside and what kind of aftermath we're likely to see in the coming hours. there is an aspect of what that would mean for the country give us a little idea of the background of people like. it when our fee is not only very close and loyal to the regime of ahmed bashir the sort of links that people are perceived to have at least with other regional powers and what they might represent . has been very close to bashir and he was a key player in the coup of one nine hundred eighty nine when the national salvation came took over and which paved the way for. it to leave the country since he was elected in one thousand nine hundred six so his member of the inner circle that was part of the coup and his widely seen as very close to. our model. is it and is it the moment when he said enough is

enough and it's about time to put an end to the instability on the streets and he decided along with other key military and security officials to step to step in that could be that could be a possibility you have also. in intelligence and there are reports of different affiliations within those different military and security apparatuses in so that you can see signs of. a crack within the alliance that has been protecting our model bashir for quite some time and if it is the military establishment which is behind this if it is the top command we will definitely see some major announcements to follow particularly when it comes to what kind of. structure they would like to offer to the sudanese people but then sami we have to remind our viewers that this is a country that has always been beset by minister caused by and seen in the fifty's

with general our board then with general then with generals who are of the help in the ninety's and then with our model bashir so this is a country that has always been beset by the minister because because ultimately it's the military establishment which has the ultimate say over politics in the country. how should let's talk about whether one aspect of this is a regional power struggle for the future of sudan there were. it's very widely known it was very controversial in sudan the allegations that one of the people you mentioned. head of the intelligence. he was criticized heavily on the sudanese street for over allegations that he met with the head of israel's intelligence and that this was a meeting set up by with the backing with with support from regional arab states. are we seeing an attempt here is is there

is this one way to look at what's going on by other regional powers to try and shape the direction that sudan is going we will definitely know when the answer to this question. the only question of who is taking a hoe takes over and this is so you're telling on who takes over the last this also who's taking over a region is that it is not just about saddam exactly two thousand and eleven with the arab spring sudanese were the sudanese government staunchly siding with problem ocracy movements in libya providing significant militia military assistance to the rebels and this has strained ever since the relations between our model bashir saudi arabia and the united arab emirates in particular the latest reshuffle in the government where he brought. as minister of defense was widely seen by many commentators as an attempt by bye bye bye bye to shield himself against any attempt particularly by gooch who is widely seen by many in sudan as more

affiliated to worse the the saudis and the and to the amenities and this explains why we're seeing this drama now evolving because we don't know who is the right person behind the it is either one of those three key players to keep players or whether because he's the minister of defense he's been close to our mother but she has the command of a whole ministry establishment you have. because he has the. forces that have been very ally as i was being the sudanese another not intelligence is just. another very powerful figure he is and he's perceived to be close to the u.a.e. and saudi arabia exactly and then you have the and you.