tomorrow june 12th is hugely significant because that was the day originally nigeria was supposed to return to democracy in 1903 in which the military an old and that's what we're actually commemorating tomorrow on that day and what led to democracy in the end was the public protesting against the nominate it was people fighting for this industry it was people pushing for civil liberties to keep the democratic space open people got killed in that struggle just as they did in the apartheid struggle people like delegate were people like. who was the wife of the candidate who won a journalist were killed student protesters were killed so civil society really pushed for that transition and the military reluctantly accepted it but what happened after transition really was that the people who really pushed for it didn't necessarily russian and occupy the space instead people who were kind of closely related to the former relates to the old way of doing things quickly rushed back in and democratize themselves so actually the 20 years since nigeria returned to democracy has been about people trying to fill in that democracy with popular

participation and still reclaiming it's a work in progress right adam and so 20 years quite clearly in the case of nigeria is not a very long time in order to establish. firm and solid democratic structures and institutions absolutely i think that it was far fetched dream of nigerians to expect that overnight the embrace of democracy would allow their country to good to away from its difficulties and to start a new day this didn't happen because there is traditions were not studied and like all who said the people who took over was the same kind of good that had been prospering under the military rules so. it was said and it is still argued that you can't to build a democracy without democrats the people who came to take over from the military they had made a deal with the military but when they took over their warm sure that they wanted

to make a money out of the new dispensation and that's what we saw the people who took over they become the city which this occasion is still i think playing a game is the role of nigeria as a leading democracy also the civil society and the actors admit democracy really do to be something accepted but did not get in the military and the world at large they didn't play their role in accompanying the democratic process for instance did not didn't press id call i was there than. not not just that it tough because information but also later on at the consultant for the nigerian government military regime to accompany toward civilian regime and i actually coined the concept of democrats today for may 29th 1901 i recalled that the media that played

a key role like the group then there were no way to be seen this seemed suddenly winning like this do you and other media institutions and other political actors they seem to be comfortable with the new dispense right of civilian didn't really act as a proper watchdog to ensure that democracy was really the right has delivered the goods that were expected from it so only then is it unrealistic to expect a true and. established and rigorous form of democracy to be able to establish itself in a country that doesn't have the institutions doesn't have the practices doesn't actually have the culture the democratic culture that is necessary is it i'm realistic to expect that democracy can take hold in 20 years. no not at all i think 2 things one is that there is a law in nature and culture in nature in every day culture that supports free speech democracy participation people making decisions between themselves and

accountability there's a lot there in that tradition is have very long and healthy tradition in nigeria tradition of civic politics and community politics there's a long tradition of party politics and much as people might be dissatisfied with the way that things are going and it's a work in progress there's no question that it's on a path to improvement one of the landmarks i think was when president passenger fell out with vice president in 2 q in in the 2nd term they fought that battle through the courts actually and that consolidated or i said ali's using the constitution instead you should only use a yes saying it's much better i mean for the average nigerian i'm not so not so sure that that's the case and we've got the data the data suggests that economic growth is is much lower than it has been in the last 10 years we we know that unemployment is up and just the provision of electricity ali is spasmodic to say the least about one half 50 percent of nigerians have access to electricity so how

is it improving for nigerians. so this is 2 separate questions one is your question about elections and as i was saying that's been getting steadily improving if you see the way that it was done at the under morris you i nec didn't even have voter numbers didn't even have numbers on the on the ballot papers so the election results were just made up in 2015 you had an election result that really played through now the 2nd half of this question is about how that translates into policy one is about making sure that you can get rid of a government you don't like that's the basic condition of democracy the other is about making policy that listens to people's concerns and that's the 2nd challenge democracy isn't just about elections it's also about prioritizing what the public are trying to tell you about the pressing everyday concerns whether that's economic management services or any other things and if you want to look at the changes in those things actually look at the subnational level in states of nigeria where some governments are really listening to people and really making a lot of difference on the ground in terms of services in terms of infrastructure in terms of development and in other states such as we recently saw in carlow where

they've decided to go down the role of political thought so actually there's a lot of difference within nigeria talking about just one picture doesn't capture all of it right it is a vast country of course an adam i mean the the label defective democracy has been used for nigeria as well as some other countries that have gone through the process of of trying to establish a democratic system but clearly there are flaws is a flawed democracy better than none at all. look you cannot complain about something you have been yearning for for so long african countries for many years who are unhappy about mono cross see across the continent but or talk about leaders who didn't take care about the willingness of the people to see tons formation at least to have freedom of speech but the type of democracy we have had across africa including in the you know have not has not been root through

democracy democracy as you said is not just about going to the polling board and vote it's about ensuring sanest in the distribution of the west in nigeria for instance you have one of the biggest iniquity in terms of was a distribution few people are physically rich one of the vast majority exteriorly poor so as a reserve what do you see people do not go to vote during the last presidential election of february 23rd we have witnessed hardly certain 1000000 people voting out of 80 over 80000000 registered voters in a country of 200000000. people since 2003 the peoples of number of voting people is declining so this is an indication that this type of democracy is not providing what was it but that from east africa at the same thing you see corruption that rises absolutely adamant whether in senegal. that's a that's

a view that i've personally have heard increasingly coming from african voices and only coming here i mean salif kater the well known mali in musician i mean he's had a hit added his voice to the whole debate saying that actually democracy doesn't work for african countries and what africa needs each african country needs is a benign a benevolent dictator with was the phrase that he used i mean do you agree with him . i think that's an extremely dangerous thing to put on the cards because that's what militaries across the continent have used as their excuse and justification to step in and once they step in and this you know those powers the benevolence goes in the dictatorship stays i think it's a really really dangerous kind of impatience i think much as it is an unattractive prospect pushing every little bit to get better and better yes i agree in the nigeria lections this year turnout wasn't fantastic partly because the public wasn't massively excited about 2 candidates who've been around for

a long time in their scene before so it's more about getting fresh faces in those fresh faces don't have to be a choice between the military or politicians who've been around for a long time it's also about other people coming up and showing what they've got to offer indeed i mean there is an alternative model isn't there something in between having military rule and having a fully fledged democracy and that is the autocratic leader as witnessed in somewhere like rwanda where paul kagame his government composed exceptionally high results excellent results in terms of all the barometers of development but of course when it comes to civil and individual freedoms much less. yes that's the type of. state that was developed not just in rwanda but in the east asian model in countries like singapore in toto you won in korea and even under china today under the jeep ng and even to be that approach of

a. strong man at the hand may be appealing to countries where civilian democracies have turned to be really good up to democracies but we have to be very careful. liberties that we have gained we have to ensure that me minted them because you can have both sides of the process and i'm careful about just not copying what mr comey is achieved in this country because the room for good that kind i mean has been running a country that came out of a genocide that killed over 800000 people in 1904 so you do not take this edition of. rwanda and bring it like we need those kind of a new dish if we see it strong brand everywhere in africa this will appeal to military people to come back to power this was

a day if you remember at the origin of african independence in 1967 early seventy's when the militaries decided to enter into the political sphere sphere in across african countries that's what they used to say we need to see this coup do the nation we need to bring discipline order but at the end of the day they fade and that's what i doing the democrat decision in 1989 in the wake of the change when that happened in eastern europe and in their times of democratization across the world after the call up. of the building war thus was the moment when the military was asked to return to the barrack as an but as an exchange to allow the civilian to come and property mother's day resources and the democracy the freedoms across the nations in africa that was

a deal that was not unfortunately respected by the civilian who took over they turned out to be worst than the military but since despite all odds we need to maintain our efforts at democratization because the military is they have their duty is to protect the nation to ensure that they can have in some right engineering civil rights walk across the country but not just come and run the country they need to be under the leadership of the syrians but in legend leadership can put ahead the interest of the country star as leader of the union in ireland will hit the nail on the head you hit the nail on the head that and i didn't you because ali what is lacking so pervasively across the continent seems to be this this kind of inspirational leadership that might give democracy a real chance is it the leadership that's lacking. no i don't think i think the biggest mistake you can have while thinking about democracy and development is to put this all about leaders you know to fetishizing leaders as if they're coming

messiah as the going to come up with all the answers actually the safeguards are democracy leadership is part of it but so is active citizens it's vigilant citizens it's people who participate as citizens and make demands for accountability if people are so disillusioned that they're just prepared to sell their vote that shows what they think is rational in this situation if people are going to make demands about what they would like to see from the leaders then you're going to get accountable leaders it's about how people to participate the 2nd thing it's also about is about the institutions in the structures so in nigeria for instance there have been a lot of reports which haven't particular progressed very far on constitutional reform on taking all of these eggs out of the one basket of centralized powers another example would be the police reform bill that was just put out way the outgoing nigerian senate which talks about devolving power making the census apparent accountability a bit closer to ordinary people so that not everything is concentrated in a big or not everything is concentrated only in the hands of a president or state governments it's also about participation and that's kind of

every day democracy that's much more important to how communities run how service is run to people's expectations than just waking up in the morning expecting a leader to do the right thing right ok would you agree then at this particular point as we look at 20 years of democracy in nigeria would you agree as some analysts a pointing out that there seems to be a bit of a slide away from democratic values and that the continent is moving away and losing patience if you like with the process and perhaps turning their sights to this the strongman form of leadership and away from democracy as we would as we would define it. absolutely did is a tendency of people getting disappointed with democracy and in the absence of the protection of the state across the countries protecting people providing for the basic amenities there are saying what you need for what

easy need for us this type of democracy some of the union notes for the type of her whole busy rule where you have a live aston some strong people who can come a disciplined initial protected against the the type of forces interlocked forces violences extremists that are appearing across the continent from monday to booking a fossil to the northern part of nigeria like what a lot of people are saying we need a state that protect us we need a state dept to provide for some common goods like lords defense sovereignty some of those aspects but that is not enough i think that in order for whatever we want to achieve we need to have couple of states because type of leaders that are by that's going to deliver the results the type of state that you have seen in china or in the singapore or taiwan and others are states that are comparable led by

people in light of noticeable at gatorland they are there is anything but that many human resources that many people would argue that human freedoms and civil liberties a very very restricted in those very countries you mention but only coming to you now what role is there for former colonial powers for instance for the the great powers of the world i mean in the past the americans have had this a campaign if you like of encouraging democratic practices on the african continent i think we could agree that under president trump there's been. a lack of interest should we say and left pretty everyone is pretty much left to get on with their with whatever they want to do do you think that this is having much of an impact to the could turn things around. i mean i think one of the things to say about the relationship between the know the western powers or as as you said or and africa is that you know right wing populism is on the rise dissatisfaction with democracy and

the liberal model is on the rise in europe in the u.s. just as much as it is in african countries you know you can see the election of somebody like trump as the exactly the same kind of yearning for this kind of charismatic you know leader who seems to have all the answers just as it is with putin or just as it is in many african countries so i think that you know those political events in the west demystified western democracy a lot and made everybody realize that you know public participation in democracy is subject to the same challenges in the same physical winds all of the time i think the one role that. the international community has had in a lot of countries where democracy has been a difficult to entrench is to help keep space open for civil society but to try and 2nd guess what countries should be should be choosing is the kind of path towards institutional consolidation is not the role of the global community it's to make sure that the oppression is rampant and it's to make sure that democratic space is kept open for dialogue but really the specifics of

a dialogue they're not for the rest of the world to decide they're for a country to decide for itself all right adam are give the last word to you we've got a minute k. and i just want to get a sense of how optimistic you are otherwise having observed the transition on the continent for many many countries at least into democracy how optimistic are you that it will really take root and benefit the people. to a certain extent a democracy. and i believe that democracy is needed in africa but i'm a bit of this a mystic in the sense that what democrat of the allowed is new form of control of our countries by. external forces take the case of senegal where somebody came over night and the order in the guise of synagogue signs for him without the knowledge of the people this is no democracy and in other places across africa you have people who come to control from afar our missions we have this form of democracy

that is there but this is not true democracy and our people are not involved in the money as human of their dead today life public policies are decided without them if you want to order democracy to be intention africa we need to be serious about it return to the drawing board and sit down about the best that we must implement in words not in words only but in deeds in action and death is not the case so democracy is a very serious proposition what we have seen over these past 20 years all right even more because it's not since not it's you know and has not been to democracy we need to be serious about it and africa must play a key role in making sure that democrats becomes a part of the proposition of because we forward indifferent to for centuries great we're out of time thank you both very much an early hour in lecture at oxford

university as africa said he said talking to us from edinburgh adam again as always good to talk to you. live from london and thank you as ever for watching the program if you want to see it again you can go to our website out there dot com if you want more discussion you can get our facebook page that facebook dot com for slash a jane side story and there's a choice it's fair because our handle is at a.j. inside story i'm at dennis thank you for watching the program and we'll see you can see.

he. was. scuffles break out say in hong kong after

protesters forced a delay in plans to change the extradition law. hello i'm how long a day and this is al jazeera live from doha also coming up. the efforts on its part has agreed to call off the civil unions signs of progress and sit on the opposition suspends a general strike as the military agrees to free political prisoners. mollies prime minister visits the village all but the white cites cheering a massacre saying it's a tragedy for humanity also. there's the agreement there's a very simple agreement. mexico moves to stop more asylum seekers from reaching the u.s. under a deal to avoid punishing tariffs. but

we begin in hong kong where there have been fights between police and protesters as tensions rise over a contentious plan to change the extradition law i was . well this was the scene not long ago outside the legislature building we've heard about tear gas has been fired earlier debates on the bill was to late i just watch a. a low criminal suspects in hong kong to be sent for trial in mainland china opponents though believe china is trying to take more control of the semi autonomous territory and chip away at civil liberties will say record is in hong kong and joins us now live from hong kong the 2nd reading of the bill has been

delayed for now but we're seeing some quite angry scenes from the territory this was been the reaction where you are. the protesters gave until 3 pm local time which is about an arrow go that was the deadline for the government to withdraw that belong to that didn't happen in the last 15 or so minutes we've got a number of police the right place have moved in trying to clear the streets from one of the very busy areas on the other side on the right hand side of where i am called harcourt road clearing protesters from that side in front of me and you might be able to see behind me we've got. a couple of 100 place here and in front of me have just moved in and i think what they're aiming is now to try and clear these streets a math teacher who's the chief secretary of the government he said before one of his requests or demands of the protesters was to clear the streets there's a lot of traffic congestion and the streets been blocked from about 6 am this

morning when metal barricades were put in around the legislative council building or the government headquarters to stop access and the protesters have been successful in blocking access to the government headquarters of some of the politicians have been able to make it into the government headquarters and of course that bill has now been suspended or so if the reading of that bill has been suspended for now but but sides are putting deadlines on each other and at this stage it looks like the police come to their deadline and they came to play and clear the roads you might also be able to see behind me all the umbrellas up all the protesters have put up on bella's reminiscent of what we saw in the occupy protests apparently there's been tear gas fired on one side that's reports only i can't confirm that but certainly with the situation here is ramping up as we speak at syria interesting that you mentioned the umbrella protests we all know that we saw a significant amount of progress the protests stronger that lasted for several months but ultimately the government refusing to give in is that certainly is that

what we're likely to see this time runs because the reason has been the lead certainly not thrown out altogether. well look i can hear some shots behind me i don't know what type of shots they are what's happening behind but certainly the government is certainly said that it's going to move through it's going to push ahead with this no matter what and it will i've mentioned earlier that the government has the numbers and the majority in parliament and that means this bill will be passed it's just a matter of time hong kong's chief executive terry lamb has said that she wants it house by july or certainly body end of this month so the government will push ahead no matter what and so for these protesters the only opposition they can really show is being on the streets because i know they're not going to win long term with regards to getting this deal with tool. ok sirrah clark you mentioned there you were hearing some kind of shots we're getting live pictures coming in from

across different parts of the city we are seeing tear gas certainly it does seem to be deteriorating quite rapidly you're in the middle of an area of protests there are sort of reaction are you seeing immediately around. what we've got everyone all the protesters certainly behind me which on the front line they are kitted up they've got their gas masks on they've got their umbrellas they've got shields but of course you've got the right place they've got buttons that got weapons and they've got their shields as well and i have indicated all along i arcane to keep clear these roads so i get the indication that we're coming up to the end of the day the end of the business day here in hong kong and i'm assuming their instruction is to make sure those roads are clear the congestion is removed from these roads because as i said before we're in the central part of of hong kong island this is the central business district

a lot of businesses are closed around here today simply because people could not get in so i think these these police there's been a standoff from the early hours of this morning between the protesters and place but this is certainly the most hated we've seen in order to give us a sense here if you would of the apple. site for continuing these protests certainly the umbrella protests a few years ago they managed to continue for several months at least the certainly is there are is there a sense from the protesters that you've spoken see that they're willing to push it this time for a similar period of time. yes most of the protesters we've spoken to they said they will be here until the vote until this extradition bill is withdrawn and clearly that's not going to happen so there indication was that they will stay on the streets for as long as i have to and of course as occupy hong kong protests there on the streets for $78.00 days there was a tear gas fired of the early days for the rest of the time the protests the cellar

the streets it was quite a very very peaceful rally this indication is i think the government be taking a different tactic this time they don't want the roads blocked for that period of time by the looks of what's happening behind me i think that what the roads are clear and i want to go back to normal so that could mean there could be some clashes a wall clashes between police and protesters no authority over the next few hours at least syria just before we leave you for any fears just joining us now we are bringing you pictures from hong kong where scuffles have broken. they do seem to be rather dramatic pictures that we are seeing certainly tear gas being fired and a lot of movement on the streets ciro this is these are dramatic pictures that we are showing. certainly the results were not their battle being fought and that is for public opinion in these kinds of pictures we're getting out of do you not sure the authorities in a good light. well it will

certainly sort of be of the protests on sunday we saw $1000000.00 people on the streets and that was the public opinion expressed loud and clear the public they want the extradition bill withdrawn of course as i mentioned it's not going to happen so this is why we've got the people on the streets this is why it's happening now simply because the bill is having a 2nd reading was meant to have a 2nd reading today and the government has now set it down for a vote next week now that could be delayed but certainly with regard to the authorities these placed under instruction to do what they've been told and obviously their instruction is to clear the streets and move things on ok sarah clarke for now thank you very much sarah clarke joining us live from hong kong. so other news now and molly's prime minister has described seeing the bodies of children shots in the back and see visited a village where almost a 100 people were killed in a massacre boosie say says the attack in the mosques a region of central mali was simply horrific gunmen also burned houses to the

ground in an escalation of ethnic violence that's been getting worse for months. into tragedy what happened here is a tragedy it's a tragedy for mali and a tragedy for humanity it was important for us to come in the name of the president to present our condolences and to show compassion to those who lost their loved ones but it is important that no one forgets this it is a horror that we have witnessed here. nicholas haq reports now from bamako just south of the mop sea region and a warning his report contains graphic images. the silence is deafening while the smell of dead bodies hangs low in the air. the attack on the doggone village of sudan who started at dusk and went on deep into the night if you survived in hiding as their loved ones were being killed. now that the 10 day images circled the village and shut everything down moved so every were people who

are screaming trudeau war screamy who tried to run were shut down the survivors believe they know who the killers are it is their full on the neighbors they say both communities have been fighting each other for control over land. armed groups have called on full on these to join their ranks accusing the government of backing doggone militias. ethnic tension is at breaking point with each community calling for revenge attacks in this spiral of violence both communities are fleeing their homes it is in this open air slaughter house on the outskirts of the capital that some philosophies of sought refuge. all of the people living under this tent share one bowl of rice and millet children show clear signs of malnutrition there's not enough water to go around so there's a threat of water borne diseases this is where they sleep eat and cook despite the

calls for peace to loni's continue to be the victims of violence president ibrahim burger king says the country's national unity is under threat. i would like to call on all our brothers to keep calm and stay rational more than ever while the 14000 un soldiers and 1000000 forces on the ground failed to prevent these killings don't go on hunters call this latest attack on their community a declaration of war saying revenge will come nicholas hawk al jazeera bamako mali. well let's cross live night. in bamako and nicholas a very distressing images there in your reports has there been any progress on on on a way for words. well the prime minister

came in yesterday really on the behalf of the president to show the presence of the state in that area because the president was away in switzerland he's now back in bamako in the building right behind me the presidential palace he'll be holding emergency talks with his cabinet but also from the various actors from the various ethnic groups that are involved in this intercommunal violence full lonnie's as well as do go on but from the villages that we spoke to to have been victims of this violence they were just they just one they just want one thing which is security safety and security remember back in march there were unprecedented protest where people came into the streets asking for more troops more people on the ground to ensure the safety of ordinary millions. you mentioned previously this is an ethnic dispute that has been going on for quite some time just why has there been this level of

a not. on the part of the security forces well there's been this type of violence that has really increased in the last year on the border between mali and so certainly spilling over mali into other areas of this hell and this increase is due to the fact that this conflict in mali that started in 2000.