nature and culture and nature in every day culture that supports free speech democracy participation people making decisions between themselves and accountability there's a lot there in that tradition is have very long and healthy tradition in nigeria tradition of civic politics and community politics there's a long tradition of party politics and much as people might be dissatisfied with the way that things are going and it's a work in progress there's no question that it's on a path to improvement one of the landmarks i think was when president bus and joe fell out with vice president to coup in in the 2nd term they fought that battle through the courts actually and that consolidated or i said ali's using the constitution instead you should only use a you're saying it's much better i mean for the average nigerian i'm not so not so sure that that's the case and we've got the data the data suggests that economic growth is is much lower than it has been in the last 10 years we we know that unemployment is up and just the provision of electricity ali is spasmodic to say the least about one half 50 percent of nigerians have access to electricity so how

is it improving for nigerians. so this is 2 separate questions one is your question about elections and as i was saying that's been getting steadily improving if you see the way that it was done at the under morris you i nec didn't even have voter numbers i didn't even have numbers on the on the ballot papers so the election results were just made up in 2015 you had an election result that really played through now the 2nd half of this question is about how that translates into policy one is about making sure that you can get rid of a government you don't like that's the basic condition of democracy the other is about making policy that listens to people's concerns and that's the 2nd challenge democracy isn't just about elections it's also about prioritizing what the public are trying to tell you about the pressing everyday concerns whether that's economic management services or any other things and if you want to look at the changes in those things actually look at the subnational level in states of nigeria where some governments are really listening to people and really making a lot of difference on the ground in terms of services in terms of infrastructure

in terms of development and in other states such as we recently saw in carlow where they've decided to go down the role of political thought so actually there's a lot of difference within nigeria talking about just one picture doesn't capture all of it is a vast country of course an adam i mean the the label defective democracy has been used for nigeria as well as some other countries that have gone through the process of of trying to establish a democratic system but clearly there are flaws is a flawed democracy better than none at all. look you cannot complain about something you have been yearning for for so long african countries for many years who are unhappy about more no cross see across the continent about or talk about leaders who didn't take care about the willingness of the people to see towns formation at least to have freedom of speech but the type of democracy we have had

across africa including in the you know have not has not been root through democracy democracy as you said is not just about going to the polling board and vote it's about ensuring sanest in the distribution of the west in nigeria for instance you have one of the biggest iniquity in terms of was the distribution few people are physically rich one of the vast majority exterior really poor so as a reserve what do you see people do not go to vote during the last presidential election of february 23rd we have witnessed hardly certain media people voting out of 80 over 80000000 registered voter in a country of 200000000. people since 2003 the peoples of number of voting people is declining so this is an indication that this type of democracy is not providing what was expected from east africa at the same thing you see

corruption that rises absolutely other matter in senegal. that's a that's a view that i've personally have heard increasingly coming from african voices and only coming here i mean salif kater the well known mali in musician i mean he's at a hip added his voice to the whole debate saying that actually democracy doesn't work for african countries and what africa needs each african country needs is a benign a benevolent dictator with was a phrase that he used i mean do you agree with him. i think that's an extremely dangerous thing to put on the cards because that's what militaries across the continent have used as their excuse and justification to step in and once they step in and this you know those powers the benevolence goes in the dictatorship stays i think it's a really really dangerous kind of impatience i think much as it is an unattractive prospect pushing every little bit to get better and better yes i agree in the nigeria lections this year turnout wasn't fantastic partly because the public

wasn't massively excited about 2 candidates who've been around for a long time and they're seen before so it's more about getting fresh faces in those fresh faces don't have to be a choice between the military or politicians who've been around for a long time it's also about other people coming up and showing what they've got to offer indeed and adam and i mean there is an alternative model isn't there something in between having military rule and having a fully fledged democracy and that is the autocratic leader as witnessed in somewhere like rwanda where who could gummies government composed exceptionally high results excellent results in terms of all the parameters of development but of course when it comes to civil and individual freedoms much less. yes that's the type of. state that was developed not just in rwanda but in the east asian model countries like singapore in toto you won in korea and even under china today under the jeep ng and even to be that approach of

a. strong man at the hand may be appealing to countries where civilian democracies have turned to be really good up to democracies but we have to be very careful we did live it is that we have gained we have to ensure that many men tend them because you can have both sides of the process and i'm careful about just not copying what mr comey is achieved in this country because the room for that the government has been running a country that came out of a genocide that killed over 800000 people in 1904 so you do not take this edition of. rwanda and bring it like we need those kind of a new dish if we see it strong everywhere in africa this will appeal to military

people to come back to power this was a day if you remember the origin of african independence in 1967 early seventy's when the militaries decided to enter into the political sphere sphere in across african countries that's what they used to say we need to say let's do the nation we need to bring discipline order but at the end of the day they fade and that's why didn't the democrat decision in 1989 in the wake of the change when that happened in eastern europe and in their times of democratization across the world after the call up. of the building war thus was the moment when the military was asked to return to the battle as an but as an exchange to allow the civilian to come and property mothers do resources and the democracy the freedoms across the

nations in africa that was a deal that was not unfortunately respected by the civilian who took over they turned out to be worst than the military but since despite all odds we need to maintain our efforts at democratization because the military is they have their duty is to protect the nation to ensure that they can have in some right engineering civil rights work across the country but not just come and run the country they need to be under the leadership of the syrians but enlightened leadership can put a had the interest of the country star as it of anything else will hit the nail on the head you hit the nail on the head that and i didn't do because ali what is lacking so pervasively across the continent seems to be this this kind of inspirational leadership that might give democracy a real chance is it the leadership that's lacking. no i don't think i think the biggest mistake you can have while thinking about democracy and development is to

put this all about leaders you know to fetishizing leaders as if they're coming messiah as they're going to come up with all the answers actually what the safeguards of democracy leadership is part of it but so is active citizens it's vigilant citizens it's people who participate as citizens and make demands for accountability if people are so disillusioned that they're just prepared to sell their vote that shows what they think is rational in this situation if people are going to make demands about what they would like to see from the leaders then you're going to get accountable leaders it's about how people to participate the 2nd thing it's also about is about the institutions in the structures so in nigeria for instance there have been a lot of reports which haven't particular progressed very far on constitutional reform on taking all of these eggs out of the one basket of centralized powers another example would be the police reform bill that was just put out way the outgoing nigerian senate which talks about devolving power making the census apparent accountability a bit closer to ordinary people so that not everything is concentrated in the not

everything is concentrated only in the hands of a president or state governance it's also about participation and that's kind of every day democracy that's much more important to how communities run how service is run to people's expectations than just waking up in the morning expecting a leader to do the right thing right ok would you agree then at this particular point as we look at 20 years of democracy in nigeria would you agree as some analysts a pointing out that there seems to be a bit of a slide away from democratic values and that the continent is moving away and losing patience if you like with the process and perhaps turning their sights to this the strongman form of leadership in a way from democracy as we would as we would define it. absolutely diddy's a tendency of people getting disappointed with democracy and in the absence of the protection of the state across the countries protecting

people providing for the basic amenities there are saying what you need for what easy need for us this type of democracy so i'm a union no 4 type of fur or busy and ruler where you have a live i asked on some strong people who can come a disciplined initial protect it against the the type of forces interlocked forces violence is the extremists that are appearing across the continent from monday to booking a fossil to the northern part of nigeria like what a lot of people are saying we need a state that brought a class we need a state death to provide for some common goods like lords defense sovereignty some of those aspects but that is not enough i think that in order for whatever we want to achieve we need to have couple of states type of leaders that are voters going to deliver the results the type of state that you have seen in china or in the

singapore or taiwan and others are states that are comparable led by people in light of a lot of trouble not all of the argument there is anything but that many human resources that many people would argue that human freedoms and civil liberties a very very restricted in those very countries you mention but only coming to you now what role is there for former colonial powers for instance for the the great powers of the world i mean in the past the americans have had this a campaign if you like of encouraging democratic practices on the african continent i think we could agree that under president trump there's been. a lack of interest should we say and left put everyone is pretty much left to get on with their with whatever they want to do do you think that this is having much of an impact in the could turn things around. i mean i think one of the things to say about the relationship between the know the western powers or as as you said or and africa is

that you know right when populism is on the rise dissatisfaction with democracy and the liberal model is on the rise in europe in the u.s. just as much as it is in african countries you know you could see the election of somebody like trump as the exactly the same kind of yearning for this kind of charismatic you know leader who seems to have all the answers just as it is with putin or just as it is in many african countries so i think that you know those political events in the west demystified western democracy a lot and made everybody realize that you know public participation in democracy is subject to the same challenges in the same physical winds all of the time i think the one role that. the international community has had in a lot of countries where democracy has been difficult to entrench is to help keep space open for civil society but to try and 2nd guess what countries should be should be choosing is the kind of path towards institutional consolidation is not the role of the global community it's to make sure that in oppression is rampant

and it's to make sure that democratic space is kept open for dialogue but really the specifics of a dialogue they're not for the rest of the world to decide they're for a country to decide for itself all right adam are give the last word to you we've got a minute to k. and i just want to get a sense of how optimistic you are otherwise having observed the transition on the continent for many many countries at least into democracy how optimistic are you that it will really take root and benefit the people. to a certain extent a democracy. and i believe that democracy is needed in africa but i'm a bit of this a mystic in the sense that what democrat of the allowed is new form of control of our countries by. external forces take the case of senegal where somebody came over night and the owner and the guard of synagogue signed for him without the knowledge of the people this is no democracy and in other places across africa you have

people who come to control from afar our missions we have this form of democracy that is there but this is not true democracy and our people are not involved in the money as human of their did today life public policies are decided without them if you want to order democracy to be intension africa we need to be serious about it return to the drawing board and sit down about the best practices that we must implement in words not in words only but in deeds in action and death is not the case so democracy is a very serious proposition what we have seen over these past 20 years all right even more because it's not since not it's you know and has not been to democracy we need to be serious about it and africa must play a key role in making sure that democrats becomes a part of the proposition of because we forward in this 21st century great we're

out of time thank you both very much an early hour in lecture at oxford university as africa said he said talking to us from edinburgh and i'm a gay as always good to talk to you talking to us live from london and thank you as ever for watching the program if you want to see it again you can go to our web site out there dot com if you want more discussion you can get our facebook page that facebook dot com for slash a jane side story and there's a choice it's fair because our handle is at a.j. inside story i'm at dennis thank you for watching the program and was here can see .

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you're watching of 0 with me so romney reminder of our top news stories hooty rebels in yemen have attacked a civilian airport across the border in saudi arabia the saudi a morality coalition finding in yemen says at least $26.00 people have been wounded in the missile strike on airport saudi state media says those injured are passengers who were in the arrivals hall in the medium sized airport evans who the rebels say that they are responsible for hitting and disabling the airport tower with what they say was a cruise missile. japanese prime minister shinzo r.b.a. has arrived in teheran is the 1st japanese leader to visit iran since islamic revolution of 1979 and the visit is seen as an attempt to ease u.s. iran tensions. hong kong police used tear gas and pepper spray on demonstrators in a bid to clear the area the testers are opposed to a proposed extradition law that could see suspects said to mainland china to stand

trial and hours earlier a large crowd of protesters were able to do a debate on the proposed law by blocking politicians from entering the legislature or building they say they represent the voice of hong kong's youth. and that. was the. morning i was.