city of the united states the largest country in europe by landmass ukraine is a young democracy struggling to join europe and ally itself with the united states it has been violently attacked by russia which continues its armed aggression against ukraine to this day if we believe in the principle of the sovereignty of nations on which our security and this is your t. of our friends and allies depends if we believe that nations get to decide on their own economic political and security alliances we must support ukraine in its fight against its bullying neighbor russian aggression cannot stand republican and democratic administrations over 3 decades have been generous with assistance funding both civilian and military and political support with overwhelming bipartisan majorities congress has imposed harsh sanctions on russia for invading and occupying ukraine as

a chairman there are 2 ukraine stories today the 1st is the one we're discussing this morning that you have been hearing about for the past 2 weeks it's a rancorous story about whistleblowers mr giuliani side channels quid pro quos corruption interference in elections in this story ukraine is merely an object but there's another story a positive bipartisan one in this 2nd story ukraine is the subject. this one is about young people and a young nation struggling to break free of its past hopeful that their new government will finally usher in a new ukraine proud of its independence from russia eager to join western institutions and enjoy a more secure and prosperous life this story describes a nation developing an inclusive democratic nationalism not unlike what we and america in our best moments feel about our diverse country less concerned about

what language we speak what religion if any we practice where our parents and grandparents came from more concerned about building a new country and i'm now looking forward to your questions i thank you both for your testimony and i now recognize myself and majority counsel for 45 minutes of questions is job without extra taylor like to begin by following up on something that you have discos today and and use closed earlier to both majority minority but it is some new information for the committee you said in your testimony that. one of your staff. was present with a baster saw and on the day after the july 25th phone call is that right that struck with jim. and as your staff related the event to you your staff member could overhear mr solomon on the phone we could overhear the president on

the phone with mr simon is that right that's correct so this is the president just i'm speaking loud enough on the phone this was a cell phone i take it it was a cell phone the president was speaking loud enough for your staff member to be able to overhear this it was and what your staff member could overhear was president trump asking a bastard song about quote the investigation says i right that's correct and i think you testified also that you had come to understand. that the term investigations was a term that a master someone as well as volcker used to mean matters related to the 2016 elections and to the investigations of barisan in the bidens is that correct that is correct mr chairman so your staff member here is the president asking about the investigations meeting the bidens and 2016 and a master someone told president trump that the ukrainians were ready to move forward he did and i think you said that after the call when your

staff asked bester saw that what present trump thought of ukraine his response was that present trump cares more about the investigations of biden is that right and yes sir. and i take the import of that is he cares more about that than he does about ukraine yes or during the testimony about the taylor. you also said that more ukrainians would undoubtedly die without u.s. assistance why is that. this german the security assistance that we provide it takes many forms one of the components of that assistance is counter-battery radar another component are stipe or weapons these

weapons and this the systems is allows the ukrainian military to deter further incursions by the russians against their own against ukrainian territory. if that further incursion further aggression were to take place of more ukrainians would die so it isn't that a deterrent effect that these weapons provide it's also the ability it gives the craniums the ability to negotiate from a position of a little more strength when they negotiate an end to the war and dumbass go sheening with the russians this also is a way that would reduce the number of ukrainians who would die i take it if the provision of u.s. military assistance would save ukrainian lives lives that any delay in that

assistance may also cost ukrainian lives is that true jemma course it's hard to provoke to draw any direct lines between any particular element of security systems and any particular death on the battlefield but it is certainly true that that assistance had enabled ukrainian armed forces to be effective at deter and to be able to take countermeasures to the to the attacks that the russians had and i think you said that ukraine a soldier lost their life while you were visiting dumbass we keep very careful track of the casualties and i noticed on the next day the information that we got that one was killed 4 people 4 soldiers were wounded on that day and indeed ukrainians lose their lives every week every week i think you also testify that russia was watching closely to gauge the level of

american support for the ukrainian government why is that significant this is significant mr jermyn because the ukrainians in particular under this new administration are eager to end this war and they are eager to end it in a way that the that the russians leave their territory. these negotiations like all negotiations are difficult ukrainians would like to be able to negotiate from of from a position of strength or at least more strength than they now have a part of that strength part of the ability of the ukraine to negotiate against the russians with the russians for for an end to the war and all of us depend on united states and other international support if we withdraw or suspend or or threaten to withdraw our security systems and that's a message to the ukrainians but it's at least as important as your question

indicates with german to the russians who are looking for any sign of weakness or any sign that we are withdrawing our support for ukraine and so when the ukrainians learned of the suspension of the military aid either privately or with others learn publicly the russians would be learning also and they would take that as a lack of robust u.s. support for ukraine is that right that's correct sir and that would weaken ukraine in the go shading and to the war and on bus it would. people watching i'm sure are interested in how military assistance and diplomatic support for ukraine affects the crane but even more so interested in how does this affect our national security now i think you said that. if we believe in a principle sovereignty of nations where countries get to determine their own

economic political and security alliances we have to support ukraine in its fight. that the kind of aggression we see by russia can't stand. how is it important to american national security that we provide for a robust defense of ukraine's sovereignty. as chairman as as my colleague. george can't described we have a national security policy a national defense policy that identifies russia and china. as adversaries the russians are violating all of the rules treaties understanding's that they committed to that actually kept the peace in europe for nearly 70 years until they invaded ukraine in 2014 they had abided by sovereignty of name of sovereignty of nations of of in viability of borders

that rule of law that order that kept the peace in europe and allowed for prosperity as well as peace in europe was violated by the russians and if we don't push back on that on those violations then that will continue and that mr german affects us it's it effects the world that we live in that our children will grow up in then our grandchildren this affects the kind of world that we want to do see world so that affects our national interest very directly ukraine is on the front line of that of that conflict i want to thank you both for your decades of service the country and now recognize mr goldman for a question thank you mr chairman ambassador taylor on the heels of you discussing the importance of the security assistance to ukraine i want to go to the end of the

timeline where you learned that that security assistance was conditioned on ukraine announcing the investigations that the president wanted and in particular on september 9th of this year. you texted ambassador sohn lin and volker and the text message should be on the screen in front of you and if you could read what you wrote. as i said on the phone i think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign what did you mean when you said you thought it was crazy this go and i mentioned that the important bit because of the importance of security assistance that we have just described and had a conversation with with the chairman because that was so important security says

it was so important for ukraine as well as our own national interest to withhold that assistance for no good reason other than help with the political campaign made no sense it was it was counterproductive to all of what we had been trying to do. it was illogical it could not be explained it was crazy when you say all of what we were trying to do what do you mean by we i mean that the united states was trying to support ukraine as a frontline state against russian attack and again the whole notion of a rules based order was being threatened by the russians in ukraine so our security assistance was designed to support ukraine that's it that it was not just the united states it was all of our of our allies when you reference help with a political campaign and that's in this text message what did you mean. i meant

that the investigation of boris maya and the bidens. was clearly identified by mr julian giuliani in public for months as a way to get information on the on the to biden's and those that investigation at the very least was mentioned by president trump in the july 25th phone call with president selenski is that right as we now know yes yes on september 25th that transcript was released ambassador taylor in your decades of military service and diplomatic service representing the united states around the world have you ever seen another example of foreign aid conditioned on the personal or political interests of the president of the united states know mr goble not mr kent that vital military assistance that was not the only

thing that president trump was withholding from ukraine what else was contingent on ukraine initiating these investigations well as we've talked earlier today the possibility of a white house meeting was being held contingent to an announcement how important to president selenski was a white house meeting new leaders particularly countries that are trying to really have good footing in the international arena see a meeting with the u.s. president in the oval office at the white house as a as the ultimate sign of endorsement and support from the united states. president selenski was a relatively new president is that right that's correct he was elected on april 21st and his government was formed after parliamentary elections in july would a white house meeting for president selenski boost his legitimacy as

a new president in ukraine it would primarily boost his leverage to negotiate with lot of near putin about the russian occupation of 7 percent of ukrainian territory mr kind as is pressuring ukraine to conduct what i believe you've called political investigations a part of u.s. foreign policy to promote the rule of law in ukraine and around the world it is not is it in the national interest of the united states in my opinion it does not why not because our policies particularly in promoting the rule of law are designed to help countries and in eastern europe and central europe that is overcoming the legacy of communism and the communist system in particular the prosecutor general office was used to suppress and persecute citizens not promote the rule of law so in helping these countries reach their own aspirations to join the western community of nations and live lives of dignity helping them have the rule of law

with strong institutions is the purpose of our policy so in other words it is the purpose of our foreign policy to encourage foreign nations to refrain from conducting political investigations is that right correct and in fact as a matter of policy not of programming we oftentimes raise our concerns usually in private with countries that we feel are engaged in selective political prosecution and persecution of their opponents ambassador taylor now that we've established that you all to meet lee did understand that president trump was withholding the security assistance. and a white house meeting from ukraine until they announced these investigations to benefit his reelection campaign let's go back a little bit in time to when you 1st learned about this conditionality and on september 1st so a little more than

a week before that text we just read you sent another text to ambassador sunline and volker which should be also be on the screen in front of you and if you could read what you wrote to them are we now saying that security assistance and white house meeting are conditioned on investigations and ambassador sun responded call me you know what information had you learnt that prompted you to write this text message i had learned that in warsaw. after the meeting vice president hence had with president the linsky. messenger solomon had had meetings there and had described to

mr yarmuk the assistant to president zelinsky. that the security assistance was also held pending an announcement by resins alinsky in public of these investigations before that i had only understood from messrs solomon that the white house meeting was condition and at this time after i heard of this conversation. it struck me that a would clear to me that securities and was also being held you said previously that you were a long arm and to learn this why were you alarmed it's one thing to. tried to leverage a meeting in the white house it's another thing i thought. to

leverage security assistance security assistance to a country at war. dependent on both the security systems and the demonstration of support it was it was much more alarming the white house meeting with one thing security assistance was much more alarming now ambassador taylor you in your opening statement you outlined a very detailed timeline and in fact we have a written copy here and you included some phrases and words in quotations did you take notes of this conversation on september 1st with ambassador sunline i did did you take notes related to most of the conversations if not all of them that you were cited in your opening statement all of them mr goble and what what are those quotations that you include in your opening statement reflect they reflect my notes

on the exact words that i heard on that call so it was if if i put those in quotes that meant that those are the words used on that phone call or in that conversation did you review those notes before you drafted your opening statement and came here to testify again now is that how for example you remember that ambassador sunline was on a train from paris to london you know during a call in in july that's correct and you are aware i presume that the state department has not provided those notes to the committee is that right i am aware so we don't have the benefit of reviewing them to ask you these questions correct i understand that they may be coming sooner or sooner or later well we would welcome that. you also testified earlier ambassador sunland. ambassador taylor that president trump had delegated some matters overseeing ukraine policy to

ambassador sohn lin who was a big inaugural supporter of president trump even though ukraine is not in his domain of the european union is that right several members several participants in the meeting. in the oval office with president trump. with the delegation to the inauguration of prisons linsky told me of that conversation and it was at that meeting as i understand it from several participants that president trump asked the participants to work with mr giuliani on ukraine policy did you come to understand that ambassador sonly had a direct line of communication into president trump i did and you testified. or rather in that text message ambassador sunland says to call

him after you wrote that did you in fact call him i did what did he say to you. you said that i had i was wrong about president trump's intent that there was no quid pro quo and but did he say anything after that that he described to you i believe you said of refresh your memory that thank you he mentioned something in your open you in opening statement you said that he said that everything i believe and you had that in quotes was actually contingent on the initiation of these investigations what did he mean by everything was going to what he meant by everything. was this a curious distance and the white house meeting. and i believe you you also testified that he said he had made a mistake in relaying

a message to the ukrainians what was that mistake the mistake he told me was earlier he had told presumably president zelinsky and mr your mach that what was necessary for the white house meeting was the pursuit of these investigations and he said he recognized that that was a mistake it was not just. the white house meeting that was dependent on the investigations he said it was now everything it included the security assistance so it was not just the white house meeting it was also the security assistance and so even though president trump was saying repeatedly that there is there is no quid pro quo ambassador sunland relayed to you that the facts of the matter were that the and white house meeting and the security assistance were conditioned on the announcement of these investigations is that your understanding that's my

understanding now you reference a television interview. and a desire for president trump to put selenski in a public box which you also have in quotes was that in your your notes it was in my notes and what did you understand that to mean to put selenski in a public box i understood that to mean that president trump through a better song on was asking for prisons alinsky to very publicly commit to these investigations that it was not sufficient to do this in private that this needed to be a very public statement and did you understand why it was needed to be in public as opposed to a private confirmation no further information on the. now during this time period in early september did you come to understand that from your conversations with the

ukrainians or or other individuals that ukraine felt pressure to initiate these investigations because of the conditionality of the in white house meeting and the security assistance the scope and here's what i know i got several questions other officials got several questions as well from ukrainians asking about the security of systems so what i know is these securities as is was very important to the ukraine and they had begun to hear from besser someone that the security this is was not going to come until the investigations were pursued what i heard from the defense minister what the senators what senator johnson and senator murphy heard in their conversation with president alinsky was the strong the clear

concern the urgent concern that ukrainians had about the security assistance now you also described a conversation that you had with ambassador sunline a week later in on september 8th and in that conversation in your your opening statement you described. how ambassador sung used the term stalemate what did you understand the concern about a stalemate to be. besser someone. said that if presidents alinsky did not clear things up in public we would be at a stalemate he and. a he began that again by repeating this is not a quid pro quo but if the pres if presents and he did not clear things up in public

we would be at a stalemate and what i understood for in that meeting the meaning of stalemate was the security systems would not come so even though he said the words there were no quid pro quo he then went on to say but the security systems will not come unless these investigations are done is that you have what you're saying mind staying that's what was meant by stalemate you also describe in your opening statement a discussion you had about president trump being a businessman who wanted to have people pay up before signing the check and what is what did you understand that to me this was an explanation that that bess or someone gave me about his understanding of president trump's thought process. investor

someone is a businessman and as an trump's a businessman and he was explaining to me. the. relationship the understanding that that a businessman would have when he was about to sign a check and by that he clearly meant that president front was thinking about her head in front of him the possibility of providing security assistance to ukraine it was similar to writing a check to. someone who you're about to send he used he used that analogy very clearly to indicate that this would be this would require something if that person over to him something before you signed the check he wanted to get that get it whatever years old.