it on may 16th to set the date for may 20th that's correct so you would acknowledge that that made it quite difficult for the vice president and the whole operation to mobilize and get over to ukraine for correct it would have been but we had already stopped the trip planning by that point and when that happened stopping the trip planned yeah on may 13th ok and how did you hear about that i was called by by a colleague in the chief my vice president's chief of staff's office and told to stop the trip planning ok and as i understand it it was the assistance of the chief of staff that's correct ok and so you didn't hear about it from general kellogg or the chief of staff or correct or the president or the vice president you heard about it from. mr short's assistant that's right. and did you have any any knowledge of the reasoning for stopping the trip i asked my colleague why we should stop trip planning and why the vice president would not be attending and i was informed that the president had decided the vice president would not attend the inauguration and did you know why the president decided no she did not have that

information ok. and and ultimately the vice president went to canada for a u.s. m.c.i. event that's right during this. this window of time correct correct so it's entirely conceivable that the president decided that he wanted the vice president to go to canada on behalf of u.s. m.c.a. instead of doing anything else correct i'm really not a position to speculate what the motivations were behind the president's decision you know the various presidents and quite a bit of us m.c.a. events correctly yesterday and are you aware of whether the. any one of the state department inquired with your office about the vice president's availability for the trip to canada for the trip at what point. early may may be may 8th. i i was on volved in the trip planning for canada and one of my colleagues who covers western hemisphere was in charge of that song not aware of specific ok requests about the vice president's bill dudley i was aware from my colleague who

is planning the trip that we had competing trips potentially for their window but i was told that the ukraine trip would take priority ok but ultimately you don't now i don't know about the canada trip or you don't know the reason as to why the vice president was sent to canada for a us m.c.a. event stead of going to the ukraine i would say i don't know the reason behind why the president directed the vice president not to go to ukraine i can't speak to the motivations or the about the candidates have. heard of inman i'd like to turn a little bit to the july 10th meeting. in a basket or bolton's office and the subsequent. proposed meeting in the wardroom. who was in the joint 10th meeting that's your recollection we were talking about the boardroom are we talking about the actual meeting with about her bone i will

start with the 1st meeting in the ambassador's office so from the u.s. side we had about for bolton dr hill. i believe there was another special assistant to the president griffin was in there for mark and myself from the ukraine the ukrainians i'm sorry for the ukrainian side we had. i was under don't you look. under your mark. and i think alexander downer looks. advisor alexis to many ok and you testified that you couldn't recall exactly why. ambassador bolton stopped the meeting short newly learned it subsequently talking to dr fiona hill and i noted that you know it ended abruptly but i didn't frankly you know i didn't exactly know why and in then in the bolton meeting you don't

remember i'm back there isn't one using the word biden he did not it was for the best american action errol that you did and then the decamped to take a photo correct correct ok so the general feeling of the group was a positive one at that time even though it may have ended abruptly i think i am basser bolton. was exceptionally qualified and he understood the the. strategic communications opportunity of having a photo and we prompted him to just to before we completely adjourned to see if he was going to do a photo and he did they see one out the west executive ever wherever in the white house you took a photo i think you said you took it i certainly took a couple of yes ok and in that photo is secretary perry ambassador bolton and basher volcker that's right and mr dunne you look and mr jamar yes and i apologize when i was running through the u.s. side or of course ambassador bolton. volcker and someone were there and secretary

perry was there ok. now you testified that before the july 10th meeting you had developed concerns about the narrative you know involving rudy giuliani is that correct that is correct and had you heard a firsthand account from anyone on the inside or just been following news accounts so i you certainly was following the news accounts and that's from the ukrainian side ukrainian press and us press and then my colleagues in the inner agency. also were concerned about this as this had started in the march timeframe kind of emanating from the john solomon story all the way through so we there's been ongoing conversation so several different sources. and so when risers on the mentioned investigations you the you sort of had a little bit of a clue of what the issue was oh definitely ok and then you took the photo

a very nice photo and then you went to the wardroom correct and you remember i think you can see to do as the you know hard time remembering exactly. what was said in the world again it's 4 months ago it's hard to be precise about whether it's on. what specific words he used whether used barisan or 2016 investigations is it so i believe it's in the deposition i 3 elements birds in the bidens and the 2016 elections were all mentioned in the order correct. you know and i think you know you i think then we can maybe go back to this but i think on page 64 of your testimony you told us that you don't remember him using 2016 in order. that i believe that i actually followed up and. when you because this question was asked multiple times i said that all 3 elements were in there so ok so it does only ask the question it sort of refresh your recollection

yes i guess that's a term no. there was. some discussion of you know whether when mr marson took over the portfolio for dr hill. whether you were sidelined at all did you feel like you were so i certainly. was excluded or didn't participate in the their trip to ukraine moldova belarus at the end of. august and i wasn and italy before change from a stripped of vice president trip to warsaw i wasn't participating in that one so. i didn't didn't miss that you know did you express any concerns to mr marson about why you weren't included on those trips so mr morrison i was on leave to be on

leave from the 3rd of august through about the 16th or so of august and he called me and asked me to return there or there was obviously. i purdy travel to the region he needed my assistance to help plan for it and in asking me to return early from leave which i take infrequently i soon that i'd be gone on the trip so when i was after returning from leave early when i was told i wasn't going i inquired about it correct ok and what feedback to give you. he initially told me that the aircraft that was acquired the miller was too small and that was enough for him. had you ever had any discussions with mr marson about concerns that he or dr hill had with you or your judgment did i ever have any conversations with mr marson about you know ok. did mr marson ever express concerns to you that he thought maybe

you weren't following the chain of command in all instances he did not and. did dr hill or mr marson ever. ask you questions about whether you were trying to access information outside of your lane they did not. and. another you know aspect of the ukraine portfolio that you were not a part of or some of the communications mr marson was having with ambassador taylor correct and did you ever express concern that he was leaving you off those calls. well certainly it was concerning he had just come on board he didn't have the you know he was in steeped in all the items that we were working on including the policy that we had developed over the preceding months. and i thought i could contribute to that too is the performance of his duties ok when you were you went

to ukraine for the inauguration correct i have and any point during that trip did mr downey look offer you a position of defense minister with ukrainian government he did and how many times that he did it i believe it was 3 times and give any reason why he asked you to do that i don't know but every single time i dismissed it upon returning i notified my chain of command and the the appropriate counterintelligence folks about this offer the ukraine is a country that experience so a war with russia certainly their minister of defense is a pretty key position you know for the ukrainians president selenski mr downey look to bestow that honor on your lease asking you i mean it that was a big honor correct i think it would be a great honor and frankly i'm aware of service members that have left service to help. nurture the developing democracies in that part of the world certainly in the

baltics former officers under fire recall correctly as an air force officer that became minister of defense but i'm an american i came here when i was a toddler and i immediately dismissed these offers if not entertain them. when when he when he made this offer to you an initially did you leave the door open was the reason a that he had to come back and ask it a 2nd a 3rd time or is he just trying to convention counsel you know it's the whole notion is rather comical that i was being asked to consider whether i'd want to be the minister of defense i did not leave the door open at all ok but it is pretty funny for lieutenant colonel the united states army which really isn't that not that senior to be offered. illustrious a position when he made this offer to you was he speaking in english or ukrainian. mr don't you look is a absolutely flawless in english speakers speaking in english ok and i and just to

be clear there are 2 other staff officers embassy staff officers that were sitting next to me when this offer was no day and who are they. so one of them that you may have met it was. mr david holmes and the other one was. i don't know i mean i guess i could it's another foreign service officer keith bean ok if we met mr holmes last friday evening i understand. the lights will fall. and you said when you returned to the united states yes. your paper got up given your you know with sci clearance whenever a foreign government makes an overture like that you have to paper it up and you tell your chain of command i did but i also don't know if i fully entertained it as a legitimate offer i was just making sure that i did the right thing in terms of reporting yes ok and did any of your supervisors dr hill at the time or or

dr copperman or about your bold never ever follow up with you about that it's rather significant you know the ukrainians offered you the post of defense minister . you know did you tell anyone in your chain of command about it after i spoke to and i believe it was the deputy our deputy senior director john earth was there i spoke once i mentioned it to both of them i don't believe there was ever a follow up discussion ok so never came up with dr government or dr health following that conversation i had with dr hill i don't believe there was a subsequent conversation and i don't recall ever having a conversation with dr compliment about it ok and did you brief dr or director marcy when he came on board no i completely forgot about it ok and subsequent to the major did mr downey look ever ask you to reconsider are there any other offers

no when he visited for the july 10th meeting and with ambassador bolton did it come up again it never came up again ok and did you ever think that it possibly if this information was you know got out that it might create the at least a perception of a conflict that ukrainians thought so highly of you offer you the defense ministry post. you know one hand but on the other hand you're responsible for ukrainian policy at the national security council so frankly it's more important about what my my american leadership america american chain of command thinks than any. of the and this is. these are honorable people i'm not sure if you meant it as a joke or not but it's much more important what my civilian white house national security council chain of command thinks more so than anybody else and frankly if they were concerned about me being able to continue my duties they would have they

would have brought that to my attention dr hill. stayed on for several months and we could continue to work to advance us all seem ok. during the did the times relevant of the committee's investigation did you have any communications with the mr yamaka we're going to look outside of the july 10th i think i recall a courtesy no from mr your mock within days of his return to july in which he wanted to preserve it open channel communication and i said you know please please feel free to contact me with any concerns and were you following this. you know there's sort of 2 tracks of asser taylor walked us through it during his testimony last wednesday there was a he called it a regular channel and then he called it an irregular but not outlandish channel with ambassador simon ambassador volker retracking the son and volcker channel

during his time period so i'm trying to recall which point i became aware of ambassador certainly i was aware of the fact that they were. they were working together some than besar silent about sort of volcker and secretary perry working together to advance u.s. policy interests that were in support of what had been agreed to but i didn't really learn like i said until the july 10th. actually that's there may may have been a slightly earlier point i recall a meeting in which a master bolton facilitated a meeting because between ambassador volcker and about her both in the june timeframe and there may have been some discussion about this external channel but ok i frankly didn't become aware of these particular us government officials being involved in this alternate track until on july 10th ok i think we had some discussion that you know mr giuliani was promoting

a negative narrative about the ukraine and and certain officials were trying to help the president understand that with the lenski it was a new day and ukraine going to be different so your understanding that is corrected that is exactly what was being reported by the intelligence community by the policy channels within the nessie and the conservative voices of the various people that i've actually met with him including foreign officials and stented you're aware of what ambassador. you know son one's goals were here an ambassador volcker's goals were you think they were just trying to do the best they could in and try to advocate in the best interest the united states that if that is that is what i believe you and i that is what i still believe frankly and so to the extent mr giuliani may have had differing views they were trying to help him understand that . it was time to change those use i think they were trying to. bring him in into the tent and have him kind of support the direction that was that

we had settled on and. you never conferred with mr giuliani now you never had any meetings phone calls or anything of that sort i did not and did you have any only known as new york's finest mayor america's mayor america's mayor. and did you have any discussions communications during this relevant time period with the president . i don't i've never had any contact with the president again states i time's expired mr chairman thank you thanks john and we're going to move to the 5 minute member rounds are you good to go forward or do you need a break i think oh we'll like to take a short break ok let's try to take a 5 or 10 minute break and we will resume with a 5 minute rounds. if i could ask. the audience and members to please allow the witnesses to leave the room 1st. it is

a resort you've been watching live pictures from capitol hill in washington d.c. where public impeachment hearings against the u.s. president is underway don't trump is accused of pushing ukraine into digging up dirt on his political rival joe biden now those testifying include jennifer williams foreign service i had to vice president mike pence and she listened in to president donald trump's ukraine phone call she said it struck her as inappropriate also testifying alongside her is colonel alexander then men he was also listening in on the phone call at the center of the inquiry and what we've been hearing of course is the concerns that both of those people have raised as a result of that telephone call both of talked about it being unusual and inappropriate colonel vinh men said that he reported the call they in to the white house now there's also been concerned raised by colonel vin about what he saw as potential influence on american ukraine policy he said he was concerned that they

could have been a break in bipartisanship with that policy which may have encouraged russian aggression against ukraine. they were just about to go to to our correspondents in washington d.c. i think kimberly help that will be joining us and heidi jo castro as well how to join might be a viable force right now yes she's joining us live from capitol hill i just want to get your thoughts on what we've been hearing 2 words jump out at me from both we've heard improper and also unusual take us through what we've heard. that's right these 2 witnesses both national security experts on ukraine corroborated each other and assessing when where they heard this phone call in full between trump and zelinsky they both thought it was improper and alexander then meant he was so concerned that he immediately. made a report about it to his national security council attorney he thought it was

a political call in nature that's exactly what jennifer williams the vice president's national security advisor on ukraine said she thought as well but you know sam there's another part that jumped out at me which was the republican ranking members attempt to out the identity or more information at least about the whistleblower yeah if you listen to that part of a new naz was asking then men who he had spoken with about this phone call outside of the white house an attempt to bait out this information then answered he had spoken with someone from the state department which we all knew about and that he had in the course of his official duties connecting with other government agencies he'd spoken with someone in the intelligence community for those of us who've been following the story we all know that can only be one person which is the whistleblower then newness asked them which agency taking that

a step further you could see then mince discomfort in the silence and his hesitation to answer and that's only sigh of ship the chairman of the democrat who is leading these hearings he interjected in just said stop it we cannot use these proceedings to out the identity of the whistleblower that person's identity is protected under law and going along that same avenue it's also interesting how we just saw the counsel for the republicans also asking them been questions about his background we know women himself has come under attack from republicans questioning his loyalty to the united states binmen is a decorated war veteran who was wounded in iraq he came to the united states as he says as a toddler clean soviet persecution with his family and he has talked a lot about that background is the reason he felt so much duty and patriotism towards. the united states but the line of questioning from the republican council

focused on and unreported episode that we just learned about now and which then says that there were officials in the ukrainian government who perhaps jokingly he's not sure asked if he wanted to be defense minister of ukraine binmen they said he was there were other his people present when that ask was made again he didn't know whether it was serious or not but he reported it to his superiors as well once he came back to the united states and then he carried on business as usual he said he forgot about it completely but the fact that we saw the republican council zeroing in on that again a kind of plays into the republican defense we've seen it many times already that been in trump's words was a never trump or he's not provided evidence of that and then some republicans taking it even further questioning his loyalty to the u.s. let's just talk a little bit about about that and also i suppose jennifer williams as well in the

type of people that we're seeing giving testimony today spoke about his father coming to the u.s. and praising his father's decision to come to the u.s. he stressed he's so those he stressed as patriotic duty in giving the evidence here today with with the attempt by donald trump and republicans to cost a witch hunt and at a campaign by the democrats to try to oust donald trump what about the caliber of the 2 people we're hearing from today the access that you had the jobs that they perform and the types of characters that. that's right in and you know these witnesses have been in a sense of bedded by democratic best to gators in the past because of course they already told their versions of the story behind closed doors and in a sense they were vetted for their credibility for their backgrounds how they may come across in a public setting like we're seeing today and it. it is no no surprise that the

people selected to bring this story public are ones with impeccable reputations jennifer williams has served under a ministrations of different of both parties they're both consider themselves to be public servants colonel lieutenant colonel been a veteran who says in his his very his very 1st his his point of reference really is the chain of command he may be a white house policy official now but he's always framing that in the view of a soldier reporting to a commander who is following the exact orders and the exact policies that are that's dictated by this chain of command and plus him going further about his background which did stand out to me as well stan how he he actually spoke directly to his father at the end of his opening statement saying dad i'm here now testifying as an act of patriotism to the united states to justify his father is

actually 40 years ago of fleeing the soviet union within min and his 2 other brothers and cho and then many of them pointed out that all 3 of those brothers have served honorably in the u.s. military so again these individuals stand getting back to your question they certainly do have stellar resumes that are appear to be nonpartisan that's what they say they are and you can see the republicans efforts to really try to find anything in their background including that perhaps joking. asked them and then said that ukraine asked whether he wanted to be a foreign are the defense secretary which he didn't take seriously trying to dig up those things that otherwise these witnesses say are completely irrelevant he was going to have a listen to the house intelligence committee chairman adam schiff and he criticized the terror attacks on the witnesses. i know them and we have seen far more

scurrilous attacks on your character and watched a certain personalities on fox of question your loyalty i know that you have shed blood for america and we owe you an immense debt of gratitude i hope no one on this committee will become part of those issues attacks yet if they're defending the witnesses how did your test rows with this law that capitol hill want to go back to something that you mentioned just briefly and something that. i think in particular jennifer williams did say that she conceded she was concerned that this phone call was police equal in that it's president trumps political interests rather than the national interests. that's right she said that she was startled because when she heard president trump himself mentioned these investigations that he wanted from ukraine targeting joe biden of course his political rival and perhaps who will face in the upcoming presidential election

a bat is what it struck her in her words as inappropriate and it's also interesting you know jennifer williams also shed light on what happened after that phone call she of course work closely with the vice president and was with him when he traveled to warsaw and that's with ukraine's president about 2 weeks after this call had happened and what william says is that he needed only when those 2 got together selenski the president of ukraine opened the meeting by saying where is the money by communicating twopence that ukraine desperately needed the security assistance that it was counting on of the $400000000.00 hands at that moment didn't have an answer for zelinsky but said he would take it up with president trump. thank you how did your tester live at capitol hill let's go to joseph who is an associate professor of political science at texas a and m. university he joins us here in doha i just want to get your thoughts to

a couple of the headlines that came out of this and we discussed this with hadija castro but words such as improper unusual and concerns about the political nature of this school what do you take away from that. the crux of the claim that the president did something impeachable that would justify rule his removal from office is that he's used the power of the presidency to advance his own political interests rather than the national security interests of the united states and in fact as jeopardize the security of the united states ally and united states security and its. relationship with that allied to to enhance his prospects for election so the testimony today and the impression of the senior white house officials about the political nature of the call really get to the point of that critical part of the inquiry and that buzz saw fit and we're talking about people that are a senior level here jennifer williams a foreign service to vice president pence and one of her responsibilities is

ukraine and of course colonel vin been who's director of european affairs the national security council that both had then saw fit to take this for the end to raise those concerns at a high level certainly unusual and again the fact that both of these individuals independently without. discussing and their reactions together drew the same conclusion and took steps to record their objections and their concern i think is significant. we heard from devon noone is the ranking republican and he was questioning and he's trying and castro mentioned this is well but trying to sort of direct the question at who both jennifer williams and colonel vin spoken to in particular to even and a conversation he may have had with someone from the intelligence committee community and that raised real concerns about just how far people are prepared to

go other witnesses or how far the chairman shift will allow these questions to go. sure the identity of the whistleblower is is obviously a sort of tantalizing detail in all of this but again the what the whistleblower contributed was was exactly that right sort of a fire alarm that there was a problem and the subsequent investigations have have either validated the concerns that the whistleblower raised or shown where he or she may have been mistaken on particular points so in some respect it's a side show to the central matter at hand which is what the president did how is understood by the ukrainians what jeopardy it put the united states' national security interests in the security of its allies and the implications of all of that we're just in a bright at the moment of course is this impeachment inquiry continues on capitol hill as you can see there on your screen that they've now about to reconvene and

they'll begin questioning both of these witnesses we've heard from colonel alexander even mean the director of european affairs the national security council and jennifer williams who is a foreign service devise president mike pence both of raise concerns about what they have heard on the telephone call that they both listened in to between donald trump and the ukrainian president as alinsky they used words such as improper and unusual and they actually took that further we turn to that as soon as we come back joseph euro is with us at the moment discussing this further we might break away if it starts joseph but i want to go back to something that devon is said again and this is been a tactic from the republicans hasn't it to cast this in his words as a shariah aid were to muddy the waters it's a witch hunt how effective is that at least in the public's mind do you think well for people who are predisposed to be supporters of the president to be critical of

the democrats and this investigation that kind of talk you certainly. are. reinforces their preconceived notions to the extent that american public opinion is deeply polarized and extremely partisan in these days any talk along those lines may or may simply act to solidify people in their preconceived views rather than have them approach these hearings with an open mind what difference do you think it's going to make now that we can actually watch this and listen to these of course the testimony before was behind closed doors it would leak would get information about what people that said that to hear people to see people even in the minds of those who may be more predisposed to donald trump is that enough to shift that that public perception and that public idea about what we're seeing here well i've seen some polling data that suggests that sort of the overwhelming majority of americans now regard the president's act.