to the gulf states imposed land air and sea blockade more than 2 years ago. malta's prime minister joseph muscat says he will stand down in january he's and golfed in a scandal surrounding his government's handling of the murder of a journalist 2 years ago. and now the latest un climate talks have officially opened in spain where world leaders will face the stark warning that the world is fast approaching the point of no return chilean politician carolyn a schmidt took her place as president of copper 25 in madrid on monday the event was meant to have been held in chile but weeks of violent street protests forced the government to move the talks well those are the headlines join me for more news here on al-jazeera after upfront stay with us. h.i.v. aids is still a major killer and african nations are struggling with the highest infection rate thousands of experts will meet in rwanda to exchange ideas and work out how to confront one of the world's most serious challenges special coverage on al-jazeera

. races always cost a shadow over u.s. politics even before donald trump emerged on the scene but it an era in which white nationalists are both marching in the streets and working in the white house is this a unique moment in u.s. history in this up from special all of us one of america's leading public intellectuals the renowned academic and activist dr cornell west. cornell west thank you for joining me on up front since donald trump became president in 2016 races a racist attacks racist rhetoric has gotten worse in the united states but i'm just wondering from your perspective how unique

a moment is this this trumpy and moment in terms of modern american history when it comes to racism. well i think it's certainly distinctive because it is the escalation of white supremacy against blacks indigenous peoples mexicans tied to the rule of big money the rule of big military so what it did when you get that kind of combination in which you scapegoated most vulnerable based on racism is in a phobic bases and then hide in conceal the expansion of the power big money wall street and big military and military industrial complex so that wealth inequality escalates at the very moment in which the races attacks are taking place you have the makings of a neo fascist moment and america has always been white supremacy is just like has been male supremacy is in capitalism but neo fascist moments for the country as

a whole not just people of color it's very very distinctive in american history and is why i think so many people are depressed especially on the left and in liberal circles because they they think that somehow. this is so new that it might be impossible to overcome and that's why we have to have real real examples of integrity honesty decency courage and hope because the only way we can get through to snail fast as moment is through tremendous struggle and solidarity based on a commitment to point working people you're right to talk about the distinctiveness of the moment in terms of as you put it near fascism but in terms of racism itself what do you say to those people especially some white liberals who say we've never seen anything like this before who actors of racism just began in january 2017 when donald trump into the white house. no i mean you're absolutely right i mean you know as a black man in america for 66 years you have to do it every day every month every

year you kids because and your loved ones do as well so in that sense you know white supremacy is always already operating the question of what form will it take to take slave ocracy as an aside up until $865.00 at the whole nation and beginning tied to slavery and statement of african people just proportionately and exclusively after 20 years then here comes jim crow here comes american terrorism now we've got jim crow jr which is a kind of de facto races practices so you're right i mean racism is in no way new and this is true for indigenous peoples as well but the crucial thing is the combination of brother because the in american discourse even on in liberal circles as a tendency to talk about racism as if it is above history as if it is not located in economic structures and institutions as if it's not grounded in attempts to somehow

divide persons who if they came together the day would be a threat to those above and i refer you to the recent writings of my dear brother towering intellectual adolph reid who talks about this with great insight you some could argue that on the one hand it's a good thing about white liberals are waking up to the racism that you say it's always been president the u.s. in mainstream spaces on the other hand you simpleton is you have these normalization of races to schools because it's coming from the very top it's coming from the commander in chief it's coming from his acolytes in congress and the media does one counsel out the other do you think. well i was one of course and no not at all that when you have white supremacist perceptions sensibilities and practices coming from above in a neo fascist moment with the neo fascists in the white house cowardly republican party that is kowtow into that neo fascists and then you've got liberals on the

other hand who have their anti-racist sensibility but oftentimes they are truncated and let us add don't buy this it's not just a white liberal brothers and sisters we got black liberals out there we've got wings of the black bosom baazi who don't want to hear it capitalism wealth inequality and met militaristically policies around the world head on so you've got black and white liberals together the neo liberal establishment is a colorful establishment you know not just finale you funny you should mention not just in the past few days the african-american executive editor of the new york times dean back at was asked whether he thought donald trump was a racist and he said quote i don't know i think donald trump says racially divisive things i think that's a little bit different what's your response to them say my dear brother you a brilliant my dear brother you got power but you need to get off the symbolic crack pipe let's speak directly say what you mean and mean what you say down the

trouble is not a racist. then i don't know what a race is is we have lost it but it's so depressingly true i mean the southern poverty law center revealed that the white house senior policy adviser stephen miller champion of the wall champion of the muslim ban is a bona fide white nationalist a documented his obsession with white nationalist literature his promotion of racist immigration stories he emails to breitbart news that put his extremist ideology on clay display is it their full fare to conclude that the white house is now literally a white nationalist white house well i think you certainly got a highly influential voices at the highest levels that would lead one in that direction certainly so certainly so i mean again though the crucial role of you know certain black folk was still around in the white house that deferential to these policies and the fact that when you get to the social base donald trump you

see brother trump's followers are quite heterogeneous and diverse i do not believe every fall and work down trump as a rhesus no not at all a lot i'm just anti democratic party were anti hillary which many i'm voted for by the barack obama and didn't want to go with hillary so they went with trump we're going to actually win a slice of followers of don't trump in brother bernie sanders campaign i very much do you want to come but it's an important i know you're a big fan of bernie and we're going to come back to bernie sanders in a moment just on trump voters though pretty much all of the academic evidence has been a mouse since election suggests that the there were multiple factors and different types of it as you mentioned but the common side of the main driving force was racial resentment over anything else it was a quote unquote white last as van jones of c.n.n. put it. all the absolutely and there's no doubt about it i think that van jones is

right about that and by the coach is right about that and by that he glaude and imani perry and others are right about that but that doesn't mean that exhausts his whole base yes and his base is broad enough that one can still get at those who are willing to side with progressive on these issues of not just class in the abstract but assets to health care quality education decent housing and so forth and so on what about trump himself would you call trump a white nationalist or is he just an opportunist who sees political benefit in aligning himself with the white nationalist movement now numbing by the trump is a bona fide gangster who will do anything he can to stay in power to remain visible to have a certain kind of status that makes him feel good so these the narcissus these races it is in a full of these patriarchal he's homophobic a lot of different things but as you know my brother i don't believe in fetishizing

any of these leaders that he's a sign and a symptom of a spiritually decadent culture that allows someone like him to have that kind of power and to have this kind of influence so if we were to somehow push trump out we still have the major challenge of a system in place and do we still have folks who will follow him and they'll be another trump like figure in that regard if trump does win a 2nd term in office how worried would you be about the fate the future for racial minorities in this country is the president an existential threat to black and brown people in united states if he were to win a 2nd term emboldened for another 4 years. well i think he'd be it he's an assistant to a threat to the future of american democracy i think that we would be on the road to escalating civil strife i think we'd be on the road to overwhelming wealth inequality and polarization in place would be exponentially increased and so we're

talking really about the undercutting of the prospects of american democracy i don't think that the fragility of the american democratic experience can survive when it's tied to greed at the top the scapegoating of the vulnerable on bubba leave a bull mendacity lies disregard of the law abuse of power and so forth and so on given that since we just have to get ready to hit the streets we gotta go to jail brother so let's talk about the politicians on the democratic side who are trying to replace trump the democratic presidential field is the most diverse in u.s. history to black senators one of them a black woman a latino former cabinet secretary an asian american businessman the 1st american samoan elected to congress a gay man do you think this diversity has value that it matters or is it as some on the left suggest perhaps a little cynically a distraction from the issues of power and who will power. well certainly you know

when you talk about diversity can't just talk about skin pigmentation or gender or sexual orientation you can have neo liberal politicians who have different calos different genders different circs sexual orientations but to still not diverse it ia logically you have to make a decision which ones have long jeopardy of integrity when it comes to having solidarity with poor and working people i get what you're saying and i totally agree with what you're saying it's not enough you know i mean i know it's not enough but surely it's of value there is some inherent value is there not to having a field of candidates who look more like america surely you prefer that than just to a row of 10 white men on stage debating. oh absolutely but not to it is still rather that if if i had 10 white brothers who consisted of john brown rabbi

abraham joshua heschel. brother brady from kent kentucky and william o. douglas for the supreme court all of them courageous visionary and highly progressive you know i'd rather have them then add some people of color who you know part of the legacy of some male liberal icon ok see it i mean i do you'll supporting senator bernie sanders in next year's election as you did in 2061 of the reasons bernie sanders failed to beat hillary clinton in 2016 though he shocked the system was he failed to connect with people of color in the way that clinton did she had this huge lead among black voters especially in some of the key swing states how do you down enough this time around to connect with voters of color to talk more about systemic racism issues oh absolutely i mean you look at the brilliance of the need to turn assist the turn. or danny glover or feel agnew dream defenders of killing my or because so many black folk people of color who

are part of the bernie sanders team and we have been breaking on next we've been doing all that we can not because we think bernie sanders is some aside he's not he's another human being he's another brother but because he's a force for good tied to truth and justice that focuses on the needs and aspirations of poor and working people now because there's so many people in the primary this time it's a unique kind of challenge if you recall the last time we just had to by the end of it yet at that time you had you know hillary clinton's got a long history with black people that whole patronage really system in place that could bring in resources for black leaders and black. it is a black business men and women and so forth and so on so it was hard to get bernie's name out there you recently said quote now is not the time for centrism

referring to biden and others but i didn't been leading the field for most of this year with the democrats he even has the support of more than 40 percent of black voters compared with 20 percent who backed bernie sanders how do you explain that discrepancy. no but brother biden has what i would call the obama halo and as long as somehow he can still invoke the obama name and some bamma symbolically means much to blacks and rightly so he's. unprecedented figure in terms of being the 1st black america as a symbolic indictment of white supremacy i'm very critical of obama's neo liberal substance but for many black people that symbolic breakthrough this is so important that as long as biden has a halo that he can somehow at the moment muster support is not going to last that alone by the biden is being and as we get concretely to see exactly what he has stood for what he stands for now it would be very clear that he stand for something

in the past that is not good enough and he doesn't have either the energy nor does have the courage 'd or the backbone to deal with the present situation let alone be donald trump we've got to be done with trump don't know what you'd be down unbelievable unbelievable energy enthusiasm bringing in new voters and having solidarity focus on principle the only candidate who has a brother bernie senator joe biden has been blamed for an increase in mosque in costs aeration because of his support for a very controversial 1900 crime bill he's been criticized for his views on segregated schooling and busing segregated busing in the 1970 s. you've said biden needs to quote get off his symbolic crack pipe if he doesn't want to lose a big slice of the black vote to donald trump do you really think it's possible that if biden wins the democratic nomination black voters won't turn out for biden in the numbers he'd need and that could put tom back in the white house for another

4 years. that's a real possibility that's a real possibility i mean it's not only the fact that he plays such an important role in the expansion of the new jim crow and the mass incarceration of the gene. but they're very much like bloomberg stopping and frisking 5000000 black and brown young folk disproportionally males they lie about it they deny it they defend it up until the last minute and as soon as they get into an election and they say they see they need black votes another vote the nation if they reverse that lack of integrity as a lack of moral consistency they're going to be on fire promoting these policies as doing in black folks doing in poor folks and then all of a sudden shift and think that somehow we still a lot of see them as persons of integrity would see that's what is upsetting because people are not stupid not fools they have some moral sensibility here so

it's not just a matter of what they deem it but it's a matter of what they did and didn't deny what they did do and then act as if we ought not to remember what they did talking of remembering what people did barack obama of course america's 1st black president turned out black voters at record levels and is still hugely popular with black democrats especially you were found to up one point until you flipped and became one of obama's biggest critics you even said quote i would rather have a white president fundamentally dedicated to eradicating poverty and in halting the plight of working people than a black president tied to wall street and drones do you stand by that even today. oh absolutely you see my brother i believe in the primacy of the moral and the spiritual tied to a systemic analysis of the operations of power in institutions and structures but the primacy of the moral and the spiritual so to matter what color a person actually is if anti-racist in a deep way anti-sex in

a deep way and homophobic in a deep way critical of capitalism and all of its excesses when it comes to wealth inequality i don't care what color they are at all clarence thomas is the beautiful black man and i agree with him 2.5 percent of the time. it's a question of morality and spirituality in the same as tubercle bamma if he's tight when he is tied to wall street when he's dropping drones when he's tied to subvert state i got to bring critique to bear just finishing off the election discussion looking back at 2016 for a moment back then off to saunders lost to clinton he backed hillary and campaigned for you refused to vote for hillary clinton and voted for the green party presidential candidate jill stein given how narrow trumps electoral college victory over clinton was in the specially in those 3 states and given how utterly all full the trump presidency has been kids in cages the muslim by the wall the white

nationalism on full display surely you must now regret that decision not to back in your eyes the lesser of 2 evils hillary clinton in 2016 well i don't think that my vote would have been the one vote to push hillary killed clinton across the line one we've got to recognize bernie sanders was treated unfairly by the democratic party establishment if they had been fair there was a good chance he would have won and yet i'm clearly conveniently ran against i know because we disagreed and we disagree at all and that is my non-value added i'd rather forget but only for a moment just looking up i don't want to tell them about my us them i'm a disagreement ok but look just looking back at what trump has done over 3 years do you think not just you plus you obviously you're one vote wouldn't change the election but do you believe now absolutely voting it would have been better to focus on defeating trump rather than suggesting clinton and trump with the same when they clearly weren't. even given the awful campaign his sister hillary bring

in and they're given all of the go to when he dies and it's all that they've got to take serious responsibility i was just going to look at the doors that i agree with what i've interviewed people do and i play absolute but i'm just asking you know i'm you're in front of me and i'm just wondering ok let me let me to be truthful with him 2020 next if biden's the candidate will you support biden in order to get rid of trump well but it is not going to be the candidate but if he were it's going to be a tough call i can tell you that right now to be a tough call i mean one is the other guy has to go you said trump is a neo fascist at the start of this interview called be a tough call surely you have to vote to get rid of the neo-fascist now there's a ways of fighting fascism without necessarily supporting people associated with war crimes and as some by maybe i'm a quaker amount mennonite hutterite or whatever but it's hard to be in the booth voting for people associated with vicious war crimes because the other candidate is

a bigger war criminal why do i had to choose between 2 war criminals not added to the point just based as well is not a principle of revelation of christianity and islam and judaism the lesser of 2 evils no not at all no no no no christianity did it did you get the lesser of 2 evils then you got to cross then you got a resurrection they don't fit within both it'll still brother not at all but let me ask it is question if the choice is between trump and bloomberg. you get to gangsta's a neoliberal gangster deal that is gangs like it's no you gotta i'll do we have to make a choice between us i mean look i don't fight of michael bloomberg but just to pursue the analogy another that i know i know i mean all of this is i have a better kids all this is hypothetical agree but bloomberg is not going to put kids in cages or ban one point you know hundreds of millions of muslims in the united states that's true that is he is true that's true deathwatch job to deal fascist and he's a neo liberal he's stopping and frisking he's supporting wall street he's reinforcing

wealth inequality and he's treating the palestinians as if they are nobodies so that the choice is a tough one but i'm not saying i wouldn't do it don't but all i'm saying is i'm not on automatic it's not just by instinct that i'm going vote for anybody in order not to vote for trouble that that's not how i live my life my brother ok just before we finish a major criticism you hear among some black leaders among some black politicians and activists these days is the way in which so-called woke this and call out culture quote unquote have become substitute for genuine action for social movements you yourself have always believed are necessary for change do you share that criticism it's come from different corners for people associated with lies about from barack obama from other people saying you have to get out there can't just be you know going on twitter and calling people or do you agree with that criticism and you think it's unfair. well i think the 1st thing to say is fundamentally is not about identity it's about solidarity is not about your skin

pigmentation it's about the quality of your courage connected to poor and working people i don't believe in canceling anybody i mean christian don't believe in canceling people everybody can bounce back i believe it was a brother sister and they have the capacity to be changed and transform so i don't believe in canceling in the body whatsoever but i do in fact say that when we talk about woking this i'm not talking about just being local you can be obsessed with woke doesn't suffer from insomnia i'm talking about being fortified are you a fighter and a long run we don't want people loken sprinters and run out of gas at the next thing you know day and that well it just at the end just as us like so much of the booze was easel matter what color they are middle class folks just can't wait to be engaged in upward mobility in order to go mainstream and become a new a new star with all the spectacle and all the look what's going on on the ground of people who are suffering that's not the model the model as martin king found in the

hey my and ella baker what are they talking about fortified are you fortified for the loan ron do you have your cemetery clothes on are your coffin ready to live and die with some bigot and you like a fundamental transformation of a capitalist civilization that's my tradition one last question cornell west looking forward 5 or 10 years do you think we'll still be having these same conversations in the united states about race and racism and white nationalism that we're having at this moment will the discourse get better or worse. depends on what we do my brother we're not on automatic when it comes to progress if we have visionary courageous people willing to sacrifice and change the world make it better it will be better if we're conformists complacent if we're cowardly we think that somehow things are going to get better on my own they will suddenly get worse and wind up in a neo fascist regime fool break it in a dead point we won't be having

a conversation it media you and i will be in jail together god help us cornell west thank you so much for joining me on the front salute your brother saluted me and you for some good man stay strong. that's our show from will be back next week.

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