they've been taken back to the scene of the crime and police said that they were killed when they try to escape search for survivors in kenya's capital i robot is continuing after a 6 story residential building collapsed at least 3 people are dead and 11 have been rescued several people a feared trapped under the rubble though it's not clear how many people were in the building overall when it came down early on friday the red cross believes 22 families lived inside the building. as the top stories on al-jazeera but do stay with us for up front with mehdi hasan and the guest is pakistan's human rights minister being challenged on abuses in the country.

from kashmir to block just on to religious minorities is pakistan willing to take responsibility for its human rights abuses i lost the human rights minister in imran khan's government. here in missouri thank you for joining me on up front you are the human rights minister in a government that is perhaps the world's number one critic of indian government human rights abuses in kashmir abuses that we've covered on the show very recently but what about pakistan's own contribution to that human rights crisis in kashmir you've backed groups like gesture mohamad going to say about that have killed civilians that have engaged in torture that have ethnically cleansed kashmiri

hindus that's all undeniable isn't it it's absolutely did. we not done any ethnic cleansing. and say that the but. the situation. i think nobody in the. believes that the dish needs in occupy wall street. from. the scene and. the scene. it's now $121.00 days and we've covered we've we've covered the lockdown extensively i'm just wondering you can still have an indigenous freedom movement while also having pakistan support violent groups like gesture muhammad and what's going to say about you don't deny even your prime minister has admitted that your

country in the past has backed some pretty vicious groups here that yes in the past we have backed freedom fighters and me and back groups supporting those fighters that was a long time ago and nothing and you've done the best human rights by occupation all. the violence that that has to. indigenous struck it to say to you so you know did you discuss mary's but didn't the leader of gesture mohamed take responsibility for an attack on indian security forces in february that almost led to war between your 2 countries he did that while allegedly sitting in a pakistani military hospital bed he's caught noting attacks on india from pakistan your little bit where. attack was a false flag operation deliberately to try and crack. into what you had already and which was of course the luck of the. orcas all of you.

went there and we know that india was going to this election if they didn't want to detract attention and the this does not create a step this who was behind the obama ad that we have all use a false flag but the un committee which blacklist terror groups blacklisted gesture mohamad earlier this year or tried to blacklist the group earlier this year you know that they've claimed responsibility for that attack and you also know that the financial action task force which is one of the world's leading global financial watchdogs based in paris says has said repeatedly this year that your government is not just the past your government today is not doing enough to curb terrorism financing. and money laundering inside of pakistan that's what the financial action task force says they were on weed out of playing with most of the financial action task force but you also know they meant that one of the members of the f.t. and. having the serious problem and we have protested objected yes

but those that politicize this what should not be up and. up when it does not let me yes or to try to improve. sort of euthanizes route and comply they say you've only complied with 5 of the 27 action items they've asked you to take on terrorism and money laundering let's just talk about independence you talk about them. yes just briefly respond to the financial action . has not. shown that we are cooperating with. that and i think the general impression is that yes. i mean up at this well. you mentioned indigenous freedom movement in kashmir but it's not as if your government pakistan is offering customary freedom is it in pakistani administered kashmir known as ours in your country which means free or independent

kashmir the politicians are forced to sign a declaration there saying quote i solemnly declare that i believe in the ideology of pakistan the ideology of the state access into pakistan and the integrity and sovereignty of pakistan that doesn't sound like freedom or independence for the customer is there they're locked into your country a new government and listen this is the bottom of fish need that liberate it so strong and yet occupation and that it was going to link up with one it is not and occupy if you. just no memory either is or it's not free it's not independent and the parliament they have then elections and. just say this. and we have said that we have not even focalized our border with china that they reported agreement in. guinea to the

private settlement after the initial meters so we have to be clear it has to be clear are you offering question mary's independence yes or no does the pakistani government offering me the accent or whatever they want but that letter said i don't think you had supervision but the un people get it as you notice here in missouri the u.n. pub is it does not have independence question on it it says join india pakistan i'm on 3 would you out of the question on independence. we have. you've been listening and they want to read that choice and. if want it we have to go we should give them the right to. the indian government says you have no credibility when it comes to criticizing their actions in crimea given your own actions in baluchistan your country's biggest province where the pakistani government has dealt with a decades long insurgency by killing abducting torturing thousands of people even

today. listen india. is an internationally recognized. but meaning. so one believes that isn't and. secondly we have been elected when. the province makes its choices well this is absolutely not the bad as in yes i absolutely no comparison 1st of all you say it's an integral part of our country that's exactly what india says you blame india for supporting the military insurgence that's what india says about part on in kashmir and just sort of the fact the voice of below it's missing persons organization you must know the v.b. m.p. they say that since 1948 pakistan has quote been killing people and throwing dead bodies they say 45000 people have been killed or abducted by pakistani security forces those a pakistani citizen saying this by the way. a lot of them are not. living up to.

provoke that. just on what. exactly. you have updated your information we have no combat a bit but again. we have a commission which is focusing on getting out in force just. yet. if anybody. has a problem. the lad but the fact of the matter is that if he gets. at least in good actions impotent. mentioned a story whether it was about the let us know what the understand how this sounds to a global audience watching this they hear an indian politician come on the show a few weeks ago and say pakistan is behind everything bad in kashmir then they hate you come on the show and say india is behind everything that is bad and blah to stop it's

a mirror image no i am not saying yes and. i think that's. me accept it was a little it had been given a bit back and yet they say the same about you. know what i'm talking about. what not understanding like you know what they don't want to accept from you maybe just leave this as a. it's recognized as a disputed territory not an occupied territory but if you want is just to be clear . between yes but it is a place where as you yourself say there are enforced disappearances you told me a moment ago that all possibile to stop in forced disappearances which suggests that you know that that is not disappearance. of human rights abuse and you know the human rights and. let it. be that made it true also. but we recognize it and yet

you link with it and we have institutions where you can. and i think this is the basic difference between and. yes i think you made that point you made that i said well look the bet is that they looked at other things that. you know ok well we're going to run out of time so i'm going on here to talk about india we have to talk about pakistan just sticking with your portfolio which is human rights a lot of people around the world look at pakistan's pretty draconian and barbaric blasphemy laws is something i discussed with imran khan when and he was on the show a couple of years ago some pakistani politicians have tried to train them they got killed for speaking out against your blasphemy laws do you understand why those laws leave religious minorities in your country like christians and shias and hindus ahmadis feeling still persecuted demonized target is. us she has like not the mind. and that bothers them. so it is yet when we talk about my daughter the sheer can. if you have an oppressed

minority community in pakistan or not actually really that haven't been and i haven't been killings of shia professionals there haven't been disappearances of has already she is in balochistan there hasn't been a sectarian campaign of hiatus i haven't been suicide bomb attacks and. we've just imagined. by incident one attacking the other but to say that this yes that might well use fact. we have a slim simpsons and we are the minority i mean not the one muslim citizens yes then the problems but also the separate press that accusations last week charges. and took less than just you up to it of blasphemy yes we. will stems we're trying to destroy it and. so i mean that issues really don't you know bit and i don't mean that piece of it

well oh my god well almost instant doesn't have all us little of. imaginable that we're not seeing is that things are happening in the gulf of course the ahmadis who are in a tricky situation because you say they're not muslims they say they are muslims here's what and how many spokesman said this year under your government he said how many have no religious freedoms in pakistan and recent actions taken by the authorities mean that the situation is going to deteriorate further and make it impossible for ahmadis to carry on with their everyday lives that was just 67 months ago under your government let me listen the enmities according to our constitution our anonymous and every right to. come into politics just elections on non muslims they have every right to practice their religion but we don't have the land themselves not muslim in order to participate in

pakistani public life some would say that's a form of not. i dissipate an update like but yes when we have to sign a form to get except the finality of the propped up on him and all of the look but op wants to do then definition anonymous so there's no denial of that right but if then says the got constitution is wrong and they want us to change that then i'm afraid that that means you say there's no doubt of rights you say there's not a lot of us in the show back in 2016 when i asked him ron can your prime minister if he would extend equal rights to ahmed if he said and i quote all human beings have equal rights anyone who is a pakistani has an equal right yet shortly after he was elected to office last year princeton university economists are to for me on who'd been selected to serve on the prime minister's economic advisory council was asked to step down because he's a mama why did the prime minister stand by him why don't you stand by him if everyone has equal rights in pakistan if he was not

a bystander he was in the us so let's be very when you think equal rights you have equal rights and the constitution you want to bring about just that many people on stage again just which may improve a bit and bring with it the 18th amendment we have now a bargain what's bringing about any change in the whole get. up that we had this was unfortunate and there was a lot of volatility or discriminatory ascension it no i think that it was the choice of the government finally but i think that. the better and the fact of the matter is that. it should not be done in the way it was done if you picked up on the question we should never have taken that position the 1st gentleman is not a bystander has been living in the state so it's not that it was being denied a right to be part of the government and he was being asked to be an advisor and i think that. is one of the leading economists ok but it was targeted because i.

know the country was. he was treated needlessly and i think that it would have been handled better but he was not denied any type of it you must say it was to come as an advisor or sort of look sure in missouri thank you so much for joining me on up front. from worldwide protests over corruption and inequality to the popularity of socialist politicians like jeremy corbett and bernie sanders it's hard to get away from the idea that there's something very wrong with the global economic system even billionaires and business leaders talk openly about capitalism being broken so is it really on the way out or are reports of capitalism is devised much exaggerated greece blakeley is an economics commentator at the new statesman magazine in london and author of the new book stalin how to save the world from financialization 0 argo's a financial policy analyst at the cato institute in washington d.c.

a libertarian and free market think tank thank you both for joining me in the arena how much of the recent protests that we've seen around the world in latin america in the middle east as one of the rise of politicians like jeremy corbett bernie sanders elizabeth warren how much of all of that is about the explicit failure of capitalism to protect workers to share the proceeds of growth to reduce inequality gross i think specifically when you're looking at what's going on in latin america at the moment are looking at the massive pushback against international institutions that for decades have been in place in 40 states are actually actively involved in foisting a very particular economic and political order on nations that simply democratically have rejected many of those policies as a significant source of instability and many of those states it's hardly surprising that people who are basically losing the right to vote to have a say over their economy are really getting angry about this stuff when you actually look at the countries that are seeing protests that which is interesting

because some of the countries that have the most violent protests right now are the ones that have been most prosperous in the last 3 decades chile is by far the richest economy a latin america inequality there has gone down which hasn't happened for example in as well or it's opened up in liberalized massively it has trade agreements also unoiled going to be discontent that's driving these protests and i don't think it's primarily economic disk. discontent reflected by the figures anyway in your new book stolen you see quote we are currently living through the death throes of slow growth would you be so in the book i talk about this idea of finance led growth being a kind of model according to which economies particularly in the global north have been governed for a long time and an institutional arrangement that privileges the interests of a small class basically corporations because of financial lies they're far more focused on their standing in wall street the city financial markets and they will do anything to kind of short term share price even at the expense of long term investment and paying their workers. so that there is a very strong for us well i mean you know it takes

a lot while the system economic and political systems to break down and we are seeing the cracks i didn't see the brakes on greece i have to say you know you look over the last 30 years in the big story of the last 30 years is a massive massive reduction in extreme poverty primarily driven by 2 things one since the late ninety's seventy's china opening up to the world which had 900000000 poor at the time that it opened up in a house less than 100000000 still 100000000 to many but a massive improvement in then since the ninety's india doing the same thing that's the dramatic story of the last 30 years now in terms of indebtedness in developed countries including the call to within developed countries that is a phenomenon that i am concerned about in one that is i think driven a lot of the time by regulatory restrictions that benefit the people who want assets at the expense of everybody else but you look at the developing world in inequality globally has actually gone down it is happening the china case is really interesting right because the way that china has got to the position it's in today is by breaking all the rules that those international institutions want to impose

on it it has had capital controls it's not exchange controls it has not state ownership of many of the most important institutions. in the economy not to say ownership of the banking system of big enterprises mentioned in use which as that is why it's been able to weather the storm but it doesn't mean i mean today the main driver has been for interest investment from other countries and the fact that foreign capital could. movie in the main driver of china's growth of the last 10 years has been state investment in fact has basically been the only right but a lot of a lot of the last 10 years is the smallest bit of this whole period your only point to you is the problem for your way of looking at the world but it's not just socialists or people on the left who are saying capitalism has major problems whether it's inequality or stagnant growth it's also the international monetary fund the world economic forum the world bank hoard cool capitalist institutions are saying this stuff yes i'm a left wing plot no i mean i don't i would say it's a little in plot but i think the narrative has to be differentiated here is there's a difference between pointing out specific problems with the global economy right now and i think there are plenty of them but i think most of the time they're

driven by misguided interventions by specific national governments whereas the trend in the general adoption of free markets around the world in the last 30 years there is no question that it's improved the world over all the worst of all not know where you're from billionaire radar for example says capitalism must evolve or die that it's not working for the majority of people do you agree with it no i don't actually know i think as i say the main driver what we want to eradicate is situations where people cannot satisfy their basic necessities in cannot flourish in a humane way around the world and i think we haven't had a period in the history of the world like the last 30 years in which the vast majority of the global population even in the most deprived places have suddenly and finally gained access to the most basic essentials and necessities and that has been driven universally by liberalization i actually agree with the point that a lot of this has been driven by governments i think we have to look at capitalism as a joint venture as it were between the free market and a particular camp that form of their states and they have often over the last 40

years whether you look at that tourism in britain reaganism in america you know. pinochet in chile right states have worked with markets to actually break down protections that existed so when you know someone's what's your model greece what country one of them is it is real democracy and this is the thing that no says. a specific country this is the knowledge of what germany and bernie sanders are promising is something that has not existed but that's what they're demonstrating for a real world exam because often critics of socialism will say venezuela cuba extreme and north korea is the real world examples of people like yourself can point to and say no this works what are they going for there are places you work there are plenty of examples of 'd social democratic states if not socialist states providing much higher standards of living for the majority of their citizens that's something i think we can what's one of the nordic countries right you know it's interesting you have them up high have rates of legs and let me tell you something has better health outcomes better education outcomes all these sorts of

a few other things that people don't realize are not economists sweden has the highest wealth inequality in all of europe it's privatized the schools it's private a lot of the hospitals agree with you it has very high standards of living in a very large safety net that helps a lot of people but it's not the picture that bernie sanders who said i was going to say was that those countries have historically had a much better outcomes because they've had a bigger role for the state in providing all these things that's not only the lives that have been 40 years those protections pub social institutions public services have been eroded if you look at the most prosperous countries in the world they have the rule of law they have very well protected property rights in they have a big role for markets even within the provision of public service and if you look i'm talking about new zealand well australia nordic countries germany france even they are beginning to adopt the models as we're usually degrees of the problem want to go for the phone when people in the us in particular have this debate about capitalism socialism they say all social is really bad venezuela and then you say what about the nordic countries and these are actually their capitalist countries just like ours when you kind of both ways if they're so similar to the u.s.

the more does the u.s. do what those countries are doing in terms of regulation well it doesn't really like the extent and usually multiple u.s. economy is similar to the norwegian economy in many ways it is yeah i mean it's open to trade it has capital mobility it doesn't it doesn't. have the same level of wages minimum wage the taxpayer pays for more health care in sweden. the provision of health care is in many ways the same as it is and you know there is a point that you will see that it is snowing universe there which is that both systems are all caps or systems as and they are economies in which there is private ownership of the most important resources we need to produce stuff and those are also used to maximize profit and i supported by the state what's socialist today are arguing for is a step beyond that is socialized ownership of all the stuff we need to produce things and it's democracy in our economy as well as in our politics that means waka ownership of it means you know workers actually making the decisions about what we should be producing it's democratic control of our public services it means

a democrat has to be clear are you saying that the public that the government should own all public services all utilities are saying that there should be different levels of a ship so that should be nationalized ownership of some things that are natural monopolies but primarily we need an economy that is run by people for people we have tried this before right i mean worker ownership was something i was writing. it was originally the model for the soviet union and steadily the state took over more and more roles in yugoslavia it was simply deeply inefficient it's an economy that was stagnant for decades if this is not a noble argument it's a very inefficient way the evidence for it is to organize an economy because it's a court of one of the engineers and we run out of time do you have to ask a big question. how much is climate change per resident it's completely change the game is going to be impossible to solve the climate crisis under capitalism and it provides so much c to those movements that are actually seeking to provide about a logical answer i couldn't disagree more immediately and grace i have to say you look at the environmental record of the socialist economies all across history and it's been terribly poor lake baikal in russia is completely drink as

a result of seed management of the whole me i get why you want to say no they say she let me know when saying we will go into the us i want you we're in this is not a democracy going to able to give you an example of our greatest of the greatest literate human history that our search for america the world's most famous couple is to come or you would deny well i mean but look at the evolution of carbon emissions of the united states in the last 10 years it's in. driven by private market you just have a look at this on the record i know you work for the cato institute which is funded by the koch brothers you believe in caused climate change of course ok and you think steps should be taken to tackle it oh yeah absolutely and they will be driven by innovation in private by capital that the inside of you think capitalism can solve the climate change it's the only real it's the only effective tool to do so if you look at the historical evidence we'll have to leave it there diego grace thank you both for joining me in the arena that's our show up front will be back next week.

going green bacteria in a bored tree in super heated gas escaping from the county in point says that this is really the fault of a shift in the for what happened to experiments both exploring and kind of it if i did it because how counter the effects of climate change the science of capturing call that using knives on 'd the scientific on the back time it takes the mind does have the potential. for knowledge is 0. 0 where every.

a gunman killed 3 people at a us navy base in florida officials say the suspect is a saudi national who was there for training. hello i'm maryam namazie in london you're with al jazeera also coming up on the program gunmen in cars opened fire on protesters in central baghdad killing at least 9 and injuring dozens more. police in india showered with flowers and praise after they shoot dead 4 men suspected of raping and killing a woman in hyderabad and environmental activists kreta timberg is mauled to be called $25.00 climate talks and needs.