officially leave the european union ending 47 years of membership the union jack flag has been removed from the e.u. council building in brussels it's more than 3 and a half years since the u.k. 1st voted for brics it prime minister forrest johnson says it will be a moment of national renewal government buildings in london have been lit up in red white and blue and i count on call it will be projected at number 10 downing street going to bring you much more coverage on that story throughout the evening but to coming up now on al-jazeera it's up front looking at u.s. iran relations and the un's agnes kalama also discusses her report into the murder of journalist jamal khashoggi stay with us for that. are iran and the united states on a path to war on today's up front a special debate between a former iranian diplomat and the retired u.s. general.

i mad the our son also on the show u.n. investigator and this caliber has accused the crown prince of saudi arabia of hacking into the cell phone of washington post owner jeff bezos kalamata anyone can stand up to m.p.'s but 1st after iranian general hossam silly money was assassinated in iraq on the order of u.s. president donald trump the islamic republic of iran and the united states almost went to war and we're not out of the woods yet tensions between the 2 countries are the new high so who's to blame for all of this and is there a way out that's our debate. today on a front we're hosting something you don't often see on television a debate between 2 people who for decades served at the forefront of iranian and the u.s. national security policy making he would meet today are saying that hussein was the former head of the foreign affairs committee of iran's national security council

and a close ally of iranian president hassan rouhani and retired u.s. brigadier general mark kimmitt who served in the pentagon and the state department on the us president george w. bush and was chief military spokesman for coalition forces in iraq after the invasion gentlemen thank you both for joining me on outfront let me start with you say the same with i mean. it's a question that's been on a lot of people's minds since the new year the united states donald trump ordered the assassination the killing of top iranian general qassam silly money in baghdad iraq. described him as an imminent threat as justification for the attack what was your reaction when you heard the news of that i personally was shocked because when president trump came to office he practically a started economic or political or security war but i could not imagine you would who all penned the chapter of believe should confrontation and the face of.

a strike when he attacked. me it was practically the beginning of a military confrontation between iran and the u.s. because iran also responded by attacking that american bases in iraq they think an issue i was really shocked because i was in tehran you know and i personally attended the funeral of universally money and i personally was really really shocked 7000000 people they came to streets of tehran ok mark kimmitt was it justified for the u.s. president to order the killing of this hearing in general who a lot of americans from both of ministrations democrat a republican have had their eye on for a while well 1st of all i think we need to clarify some of the terms it was not an assassination it was a death on the battlefield of a military combatant if we go back to the record of what general sort of money has

either done personally or been responsible for on the issue of americans alone he was responsible for providing explosively formed penetrator id's into iraq. $600.00 plus americans killed thousands wounded we've seen what's happened to syria under his tutelage with the quds force responsible for tens of thousands particularly civilians so i think in terms of the military combatant that was conducting military operations against an enemy that was a battlefield consequence of a battlefield decision on its part and it was a battlefield it was about oil field so when vicky deval former general counsel of the senate select committee on intelligence former assistant general counsel the cia she says that it was a homicide under federal law because the president's called just kill people who they don't like or who about people because probably called an imminent threat but you're not using the argument of justification for killing you know i think that the president has wide power on the issue article 2 of the constitution gives him that responsibility he also has

a responsibility for the safety and protection of american people against threats to the homeland and there with the rules of engagement currently operating inside of iraq that all of our soldiers were operating under which would have given a foreign military enemy in uniform. a legitimate battlefield target legitimate battlefield target status and so i think it is generally and there is a common understanding internationally that these was. an actual war against iran and this was completely elite good presidents from has this week need to do would have needed god as a terrorist organization in response iran has designated. the us all to me as a terrorist organization right they both have tens of thousands of members. if this is illegitimate that the many kinds they keep it in guard members in the

middle east. therefore nice would give legitimacy to unions they kill a man to consume it just because it was an assessment because then it rained as they would say yes killing to terrorists then then. is what you call well in fact i think that's already happened when the iranian military supported the could for supported. iraqi proxies and killed an american contractor at k 2 that's really what led to all of this and i think it's important to recognize the new year just for the new year i think it's important to recognize that for months and months remarkably president trump had showed a tremendous amount of restraint reacting to not reacting to the attack on the tankers inside the gulf not reacting to the cake attack not reacting to the shoot down of the american room i've sat in baghdad many nights and heard rockets being fired into the green zone which were by iranian backed proxies so i think we've got

to understand. and go back to if this is in fact devolving into a war which i don't believe that to be the case i think there needs to be some circumspect assessment of what has led to this and it wasn't only until an american was killed did president trump feel necessary feel it necessary to act you say you're not moderate you don't think it's devolving into open war and how and how what i want to do what i ask you both the nuance of the question for our staff let me ask you do you agree with you how worried are you about open war people were talking about my general i'm seriously worried because there are some specific countries who have been pushing. for maybe years and years and years to attack iraq which countries are you know saudi arabia you know israel i don't know if you know they can say yes only that i think that there has been on the part of some american allies inside the region to go against the surface of the instability in the region this war so instability or wars in the region saddam attacked iran

the u.s. supported arab states supported saddam attacked kuwait iran was against saddam the u.s. attacked iraq the u.s. attacked afghanistan u.s. and saudi arabia attacked yemen and arab countries we need today attacked libya 7 wars in this region this region at the very edge of total collapse of a failed state i've got i've got to throw this in here though you mentioned wars in the region the biggest war in the region in recent years has been the syrian war which the iranian years of which iran has been heavily involved on the side doing most of the clearly but you don't make a mistake the orders frankly speaking the others the u.s. europe so the arabia they were true bring a girl regime in syria down. we don't have time to reprosecute the circle all i'm

saying is the. has been heavily involved in a very bloody and brutal war in syria helping bashar al assad kill a lot of people including the us some silly money was involved and supported illegal that are meant to prevent regime change by the focus on to let terrorists let me bring in let me bring in market how do you feel mark about the fact that the u.s. government killed general hossam silly money a man who for all the litany of things bad things he did which you mentioned at the start of the show helped the us defeat in iraq how do you feel about the fact that i selectively celebrated the u.s. killing of possibly money well i think we've also got to acknowledge the car some sort of money had been extraordinarily helpful to us since the early days of our operations inside of afghanistan. but i would just simply ask the $600.00 plus families that have lost a father a son. a brother an uncle who died because of the

military operations conducted by carson sort of money i think that they were given a resounding it was better that he became a battlefield casualty and even if i still is helped by that i saw will not be helped by this i would tell you that right now that inside of iraq the iran the the iraq the iranian based iraqi proxies the p.m.s. the high should have done a brilliant job as the as the leading edge of the operation against that will continue i was going to mention to say to some some 24000 documents from iran's ministry of intelligence and security which was revealed recently by a joint new york times intercept investigation how to rein in intelligence officials warring in private about the brutality of some of silly moneys militias in iraq saying that it could backfire in iran actually about a document i really don't know about that document about the d.c. is correct or fake but the renin intelligence organizations the all said this is

a fake document one but 2nd there is a fact mark i think you would accept that america iraq offer shows frequently they said the very thought you were a knee and support or support but a dog would have collapsed in the hands of isis l.b.l. would have collapsed would have collapsed. iraq military iraq prime minister foreign minister they always said vith out all its support and yet you are to say the money is dead and in the days running up to saddam on his death the iranian culture salute was burned down and not just by iraq protesters was not given on iraq and no i mean attacks really frankly speaking. to pull protests across the road and there are. very much very much suspicions that. you know most iraqis may be but maybe the only answer i mean is to. look at it. the

reality is the possum's of the modern funeral. in jobs in by the. people of iraq and. of iraq therefore they can see that he has a he will not be the 1st to admit we would have liked general costs and civil money on our side he was a brilliant officer he was a brilliant tactician he had been helpful with us in afghanistan it was unfortunate that he made the choice to turn his activities against the americans in the early 20052006 period we watched what he was able to do with popular mobilization forces i would be the 1st to sit at the table saying that when the war came out to form the popular mobilization forces i was happy i was in baghdad at that time it was thought that held back isis well once the fight was over it took on

a completely different complection and unfortunately. made the choice both in iraq and syria and lebanon and yemen and elsewhere in the region to be a destabilizing factor with this quds force and it's unfortunate that we couldn't work together the way we had in the past. a question. you see. money. correctly. cooperated head of the u.s. to win the war on terror or enough. to defeat the isis. when he headed iranian general with american generals and taliban was defeated what was the u.s. reaction the president to. iran is the axis of everything if you know aren't you supposed to cooperate this is your do war of your own as axis

of evil would you continue. i don't think at that point i may not have continued but i wouldn't turn the tables to where i would start killing american soldiers as a result let me just take a step back or out of time i do want to ask you both this question point since i've got you bring to the table can we you're having a very reasonable conversation here today can we agree because right now there's a lot of people in your country who want to demonize his country so a lot of people in your country who want to demonize this country and i'm just wonder we often hear grievances being put forward in a vacuum so we hear if we hear the iranians talk about the cia also they're going to 53 support for the shah support for saddam against iran sanctions today which is a big complaint of the iranians about the very very. destabilizing sanctions that are hurting a lot of iranians but then we hear from the americans about the hostage crisis in the taking of american hostages the support for hamas and hizbullah. attacks on american soldiers in iraq would you both recognize the killing of $241.00 marines

at the marine bomber marine offerings and then the iranians say the killing of $200.00 people on a civilian airliner in 98 it goes back in the us what you would both recognize that both sides have legitimate grievances against the other. i have explained in my book american gibeon serves in food text iran and the us but you accept americans a legitimate grievances against iran is that all you and these have to respect i mean they say that's not what i asked as they look just about grievances i don't know where there is legitimate or not because the us was supporting shar for 25 year. and it corrupted the regime and that's your grievance. grievances no hostage crisis my issue american men have. always i have returned i have said we need to and a bold degree of the ok we need to respect and we need to find a solution would you agree with that and that's exactly why i believe iran should

accept the offer of the united states to sit down at a negotiating table and restart these discussions so that we can put these grievances on the table and come to a solution if you recognize that there is a legitimate grievance in the rain is when they talk about the cia coup when they talk about a civilian are because you don't often hear that much about it in the u.s. discussion about iraq if countries didn't have grievances with each other they wouldn't need a state department they would need a diplomatic or they were. you know the u.s. iran relation is a particularly longstanding toxic one i'm just saying it seems to me one sided from both sides would be helpful if both sides recognized that the others have legitimate grievances i have not ever said that i can understand the reigning towards the americans i don't necessarily agree with that but that's why we need to sit down i think there's a silence is worked ok well not know what we're going to leave it there thank you both for coming on up front to have this conversation appreciate your time thank you very much. since mohamed bin solid

mom became crown prince of saudi arabia and effectively took charge of the saudi government there's been a ramping up of the country's military and influence operations abroad and as with regional rival iran and the targeting of saudi dissident even in exile and this calabar the un special rapporteur on extrajudicial killings has been investigating the assassination of saudi journalist jamal khashoggi an assassination allegedly ordered by m.p.'s himself she's also coauthored a new report suggesting the saudi crown prince how the cell phone of jeff bezos the billionaire owner of amazon and the washington post so. is mohamad been solved are untouchable and his caliber joins me now from new york thanks for coming on up front thank you how certain are you that m.b. s. the crown prince of saudi arabia is personally to blame for the hacking of jeff bezos the richest man in the world and why would you do that because the saudis say it's a silly and absurd accusation look at the statement that david kay and myself

have released point to the medium to high probability chance that mr bezos phone was hacked tor whatsapp account belonging to the crown prince in for n sync cyber security term medium to high probability is actually very high and it is very rare if not almost impossible for any kind of forensic as cyber security investigation to reach higher. probability because of the complexity of the spy whales and their capacity to to solve destroy so david can myself where convinced turn of by the likelihood of the foreigner being been hacked tor that means to go forward and to go public as part of our men

did tweet she is to warm the international community when we are confronted with is very probable towards full allegations this is why we came forward what is your response to the claims by some technology experts who came out and said they were skeptical of the evidence that's been presented in terms of this case it's notoriously difficult is it not to accurately attribute the source of cyber attacks and this seems to be the case here too alec stamos 6 facebook's former chief information security officer has said there's no smoking gun here. senator lees are right we have not at least david can myself i've not pretended there is a smoking gun and. t.i. i want to be in the company that jeff bezos 1st employed to. have an f.b.i. is the company employed by jeff bezos and vetted by c f b i lead story corps that the investigation of mr business phone is sparked of an

ongoing f.b.i. investigation you've of course been investigating the brutal murder of the washington post journalist and saudi citizen jamal khashoggi do you believe the hacking of jeff bezos is phone is linked to the khashoggi killing. i believe the king of jail for business is linked to a target to campaign against dissidents and against anyone of strategy can terrorized for information communication and public relations i am not and i have not suggested that the care that the killing of general casualty can be traced to the hacking of business but it is part of. the context which places the crown prince and the center of the campaign against dissident campaign which has been shown to have a direct impact on on the killing of jam and casualty and you know in my report

regarding the killing of jamal khashoggi and suggested that m.p.'s may have ordered email have been cited in may have created the conditions in may have turned a blind eye and failed to respond what the current the recent allegations point to us is that they are bringing the crown prince closer to one of those scenarios which where it identified in my report to the kingdom of saudi arabia has had its own investigation into the death of khashoggi of course and sentenced 5 men to death and 3 others to a combined 24 years in prison you've called it a mockery of justice why well because the people that have been sentenced both today and to prison are basically the he to men they are the laws and the high and the lowest level of the chain of command it i mean it's unbelievable that the individual that had been identified as having the media mom planned and all the

lies the killing those individuals are walking free that includes. for instance our cat tanny that has been linked directly by the by his investigator to having inside to. the abduction which is a crime of. mr casualty so the mastermind not only been in and they quickly investigated and by this i mean the crown prince himself has not been investigated but those that have been a little beach investigated are now allowed to walk free just on coming back to the hacking for a moment you did say that there was a strategic purpose for this crown prince to allegedly do this we know that the crown prince doesn't just what's up with jeff bezos he what's up with jared crucial senior advisor and son in law to the president the united states does that mean that gerrard could be compromised to buy a saudi ak look the reason why david can i myself wanted to release the statement

was to send a warning to people who have been working closely with the crown prince and more generally with saudi arabia it's a warning that their foreign may have been compromised that certainly include the foreign of guile and gyrate questionnaire ok and what do you make of the west's reaction to all of this behavior by m.b.a.'s whether it's the war in yemen whether it's the killing of jamal khashoggi or the hacking of jeff bezos a handful of european countries stop selling saudi arabia some arms for a short period the u.s. sanctions some saudi nationals they say were involved in the murder but the president the united states says he's a big fan of m.b.a.'s is it fair to say that western countries especially the u.s. led by the u.s. have basically let the crown prince mohammed bin solomon get away with everything well. the governments of western countries have let him walk free for the time being i think it's fair to say that within those countries there

is far more dispute as to how those countries treat engage with them b.s. i mean the american congress is on record for having requested the director of national intelligence a report on the rest. sponsibility is of the crown prince for the killing so i think the situation in those countries is a little bit more complex and could in my view turn around these being said you are perfectly correct so far the governments of the united states of france of the u.k. have been unwilling to challenge the crown prince for his behavior of and by so doing they are sending the wrong message one final question and this column up on january 3rd the united states launched an airstrike that killed general qassam sulaimani the commander of the iranian couldn't force or the most powerful figures in iran president trump claims he posed an imminent threat to the us without citing

a shred of evidence for that claim do you as the un special rapporteur on extrajudicial killings do you think sulaimani was a legitimate military target or was this an extrajudicial killing a political assassination well look and a moment on the basis of the evidence provided by the united states and on the basis of my interpretation of international law. surgeon said the likelihood of these killing to be unlawful is very high these being said i am certainly open to hearing more about the evidence of the imminent threat that general salim and every presented and in terms of international law there are ongoing debate right now as to whether under international humanitarian law missteps so in many wars a legitimate target personally i have question that analysis but i do know that

they are or their expert that i am gauging with my conclusion and are reaching a different conclusions so. my my view is that the killing at this point is unlawful but let's let's i think time will tell and give us farm. no information and his colorful thanks for joining me on outfront thank you very much that's our show up from over back next week. join africa's largest trade and investment in the wonder gives you access to more than 1100 exhibitors and 10000 visitors and baez and more than 5000 conference delegates from more than 55 countries participating in trade and investment deals with $40000000000.00 u.s. dollars as business and government come together to install business and networking opportunities at the international exhibit which will include a creative africa exchange by the african export import bank and

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business ledgers there's no brush paul. hello i'm maryanne demasi in london with a quick look at the headlines now democratic party managers are again appealing to republicans in the u.s. senate to allow witnesses and additional evidence in the impeachment trial of president donald trump they have 4 hours to debate before the vote that will decide the trials future democrats need at least for republicans to vote for additional witnesses that looks highly unlikely after 2 key republican senators confirmed they would not meaning the senate will not hear from former national security adviser john bolton trump could now be acquitted in the coming hours house impeachment manager and democratic congressman adam schiff made an 11th hour plea for the senate to hear bolton's testimony. so here you have the president saying john bolton is not telling the.