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headlines around the world in 2014 when its fighters pushed out iraqi soldiers and took control of cities like mosul and central. and in what became known as the sindar massacre thousands of easy men women and children were killed. in response to ice was rapid territorial gains the united states and its allies formed a coalition to fight the armed groups. they launched airstrikes on eisel hideouts its fighters and convoys. in october last year the u.s. military operation in northwest syria resulted in the death of ice was leader of a bucket and about that. a move a car i'll baghdadi is dead. in 2018 the un secretary general antonio terrorist announced the appointment of a special advisor to support efforts to investigate icicles crimes. as the head of

the un investigative team the special advisers mandate is to collect preserve and store evidence. but how are the investigations conducted and will it bring justice to the countless victims in iraq and syria the united nations special adviser karim khan talks to al jazeera. thank you so much for talking to al-jazeera my pleasure so you've been investigating the alleged crimes committed by members of eisel what sort of picture is emerging in terms of who are the victims humanity. all communities nobody was spared anybody that refused to do the bait to the contorted and quick twisted ideology of meaning. agents to really slumming state what i insist and jane is an islamic state a complete perverted contortion of religion whose very name is peace now as you're

collecting evidence though the question comes up what ultimately are you going to do with it it has to feed into courts and this is what which courts that's a big question right now any court and that's the beauty of the mandate any court where fair trials are possible the simple reality is the 1st question every community has been targeted. a sunni shabak cockeye he's e.d.s. every single turk meant any community of iraq and the wider world that were viewed as to apostates or were viewed as. not buying in to the di challenged ideology faced immense persecution torture executions and killings so we're investigative team the council security council unanimously has realized that legal accountability is an important part of the equation if one really wants to

expose the ideology which is the fuel to the criminal group that we see i was so we're that feed into any court anywhere in the world where fair trials are possible in iraq of course that is that's really question the that's a key statement that you made they said anywhere where of trial is possible the reality is that those countries which are generally regarded as having a fair and decent justice system well many of them don't want to see i saw members come to their countries even if they are they're citizens and a lot of them are ending up in places like iraq to face trial. do you think that that is a satisfactory situation i think the satisfactory situation would be when the rights of victims are at the center of both my team's work and the consciousness of the international community it's when the right of survivors is

met by real focused investigations so we don't simply pay lip service to accountability we don't parrot the word of no impunity we do it by way of focused investigations and there are many countries of the world that are very interested and that are supporting the work of my team the united nations investigative team to promote accountability of dice we've already fed evidence into finland for example where fair trials are possible fed evidence we've. into those courts for the full assistance of the government of iraq and it's very great credit of iraq itself that notwithstanding the obvious challenges they have pledged and i giving the full support their full support to the security council team created for this very purpose let me read to you a part of a report by human rights watch may 31st 2019 and it's criticized some of the trials of eisel suspects in iraq referencing confessions extracted through torture

and unfair trials are they wrong the more interesting one perhaps you know if there was perfection anywhere in the world but this is not simply a matter of affection right to extracting confessions under torture of course i'm coming to that effect right into the question so if there was perfection anywhere in the world there'd be no need for support so i look at things quite objective he is a lawyer right it's to the great credit for iraq that we have not been imposed upon them the security council with one clarion voice with complete unanimity has said that this team. i have the honor to lead is needed to ensure credible independent investigations the only reason we are in iraq that we can conduct independent investigations is because iraq agrees is to do so they have not been dragged kicking and screaming to the hall of justice they realize that there are

deficiencies and limitations and challenges and quite honestly sometimes moral high horses in the developed world if this challenge of die if the hundreds of thousands of members. and the criminality the level of criminality we've seen were suddenly transplanted into the courts of london or paris or berlin no court in the world can deal with it because it's on a scale that is almost and herald and so i think you know things are improving you've talked about human rights watch report the latest report of human rights as noted the real move away from confessions in some courts they they they mention for example terrorist courtin in mosul a bid to write more porn evidence as opposed to confessions so the trajectory is shows signs of some positive developments it's still not perfect no legal system is but i don't lose sight of the fact that this willingness to be self-critical and say we need support we need support from the international community we need

support from lawyers and investigators and analysts to get our teeth into this mountain of evidence that is in everest to climb to ensure the rights of victims are vindicated i think that's a positive development it doesn't mean the task is easy it was plain sailing would be talking about i understand your point about the your ability to conduct a credible investigation that you have the freedom to investigate and the you know the credit you would like to give to iraqi authorities understood however my question more is whether you're frustrated at some point you face some frustration at least for having finished your work. gathered the evidence it does seem like there is a challenge in bringing that evidence to a fair system are you satisfied let me put the question this way so am i correct in understanding right now you are satisfied with the legal process in iraq up this

way rock itself as a sovereign authority is repeated in the council that we respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of iraq so the most eloquent voice is not mine but that of the government of iraq the truth of the matter is that iraq itself number one realizes that the challengers realizes it needs an increase in capacity in the terms of the terms of reference agreed between the government of iraq and the united nations before my appointment it states that my team is required not only to conduct credible investigations independent investigations leading to fair trials but we should share knowledge and bill capacity that obviously is acceptance that capacity needs to be improved now these are. let me finish the question if you don't mind the question was one of. the the frustrations the victims have every right to be frustrated because the crimes of dice took place in

201-420-1520 extension 16 the resolution was passed by the security council in 2017 we've already fed into the courts in finland where assisting other states were assisting iraq with explanations in the cases you talked about earlier they deal with terrorism i don't have a mandate for terrorism my mandate or acts that constitute acts by dyche so. to constitute either the international crimes of genocide crimes against humanity but that's precisely as i say what a my point is this that iraq has just recently before the protests the president has put forward a bill to parliament which domesticate those international crimes so whilst we're not in a perfect situation the foundations are being built were fair trials so you want to start with all due respect answer my question are you satisfied with the system in iraq and i'm not satisfied with a legal system anywhere in the world if

a legal system was such was perfect anywhere would have no need for a court of appeals would have no need for european court of human rights or the interim merican court of human rights. justice requires humility to accept the fallibility of man and the constant scrutiny is virgil said the price of liberty is eternal vigilance and so satisfaction has with great respect isn't a relevant consideration it's one of humility and striving towards fairness justice based upon evidence it might do him any complacency it might be an important consideration though in establishing that justice that you're talking about for the victims themselves if you're a victim of a crime committed by dashed surely you want to know that the right person or people have been apprehended that you know people haven't just been rounded up and forced to can. 1st on the torture let's go over here because i understand because your job that you're doing my question is ok let me put it into things with respect i'm

trying to dissect the fallacy with you know of your argument you're conflating the government of iraq with the united nations investigative team to promote accountability which has the full support of the international community all 15 members of the council passed the resolution with no dissents no abstentions in september 2017 the mandate was unanimously approved with no abstentions no veto no no vote against it september and we have been. created to ensure independent credible investigations and iraq has supported that so i think what we're looking at is you're looking at another aspect of the sovereignty issue of what iraq is doing i'm talking about what the united nations is doing i don't with this who in fact trials i understand that very clearly i'm not conflating the 2 my question though is i want to get your your perspective because after you finish your work that has to go on to court somewhere in the world not when we finish our

work i mean this is why i'm saying i'm trying to brief you on what the mandate is and what we're doing i'm not and i think you have the work is finished when you conduct investigations surely you want to see the results of that investigation all roughly who did as you said you passing it on to finland were ready prosecutions are taking place so you are passing that on to national juries and the jurisdictions are not trying to get you your feelings as to whether you're satisfied that national jurisdictions are always taking up the good work you're doing in in the best way i think what my issue with you and i think you should move on because you're dancing on a pinhead the word satisfaction is one that is pregnant i think there's been tremendous progress i think there's a tremendous willingness by states by iraq and by 3rd states to support the mandate of the security council we have already within a year of being established fed into. the judicial. assessed in 3rd states we've helped with extra missions in iraq we're building capacity i think that's extraordinary in fact not satisfy this extraordinary with from start up to

operational within the year in the united nations ministry structure and i think this tremendous credit to the victims of engaged with that are speaking to us to the team itself and also to state supporting us and most of all to the government of iraq that is. giving is that support because words are cheap action is really what matters and we are working independently in iraq reporting directly to the security council and i think that's exactly what the victims expect to get your comment on what the u.s. secretary of state mike pompei or has been talking about he's been urging european countries to take back i saw members as a matter of establishing justice do you think it's important that european countries accept their nationals back from syria and iran you're trying to move me into an area of political debate i'm not going to comment on what secretary of state pompei o said or whatever the united nations mandate that i had. has to

promote international standards and best practice i applaud those countries that are taking back their nationals and that are willing and able to do so and we are willing and we've expressed it to feed in and assist those domestic courts that have taken back foreign fighters if other states have national security concerns legal impediments or other reasons why they're not taking them back our job is to make sure that there still accountability and so what we are doing we're investigative team on the lookout for a court and policy decisions that rests upon the sovereign states of the united nations they must grasp this nettle of choice what we have to do is feed into any courts that exist and that are available i understand the political sensitivities of your job and if of course if you don't want to comment on something that's your you're absolutely right i would like to try me on it i would not walk away from

a question. you know it's not that i don't like will put my pompei or side yes the prince the idea that many countries or some countries with good standards of justice almost universally recognized as having a good standard and process of justice shying away from taking back their citizens has prompted some in the u.n. like the un special rapporteur for extrajudicial executions agnes calmar who is a un official like yourself expressing concern in august about reports of the transfer of french nationals to places like iraq for trial because of torture and unfair process. now when i'm trying to get out is the question of do you see as an investigator i know it's not it's not your responsibility what happens within national jurisdictions i get that point but would you like to see from your perspective more countries in europe take back do you think their citizens for

trial or home do you think that that would help the process and i think any state that he's able to take back national their own nationals are to be commended and are to be assisted and they're encouraged to do so but. our job really is heavy enough by itself our job based we're in the field in iraq we're in mosul we're on the border we're in synch our we're in spite of the team is in both dard at the moment and in the north of the country collecting evidence meeting survivors meeting victims. and seeking to speak to people that are detained members of. our job is to build the cases so that the rights of the international community the right of victims and also humanity at large to justice is realized and whatever fair trials are possible i think what my responsibility is as head of the team is to bend over backwards to try to provide evidence to those processes in line with

international standards so that independent judges can critique that evidence and can make decisions as to guilt or innocence not based upon sectarianism not based upon collect notions of collective guilt but on i based upon evidence and that's our job and i think that is it happened that's how raison d'être as i said i think is tremendous progress in one year but rome is not built in a day have we achieved all aspects of the mandate of course not but we've been in iraq just over a year and i've told you already some of the areas where we have moved. collecting evidence building support from international community. trying to ensure that we receive the information evidence statements and material from various n.g.o.s from 3rd states and feed into fair process courts and prosecutions where they are possible so i think in terms of the year it's outstanding but of course at

the same time given the scale of criminality and the perverted and cruel treatment by darvish it's also. the 1st drop in face of the war of accountability right that one has to swim towards some of course for an international tribunal do you think that will be helpful i think these are political decisions and my own little thought i know my own my own thought is there's no one silver bullet i mean journalists and politicians often want to reduce everything to its essence as if there's a a one silver bullet that will slay dracula the dracula. is if you look at the temporal scope the years it wasn't a one day incident like the hariri killing in lebanon it was an occupation and control over a swathe of territory the size of the united kingdom for years and no one legal system no one court international local will be sufficient to ensure justice

we have to help iraq. increase capacity based upon evidence fairness international standards feed into any courts give assistance to any court anywhere in the world where they're taking about foreign fighters or fighting finding suspects in their territory and any other structures that may be created will feed into those so for us the forum is less important than the fact that there is justice and accountability so the direct court can be created that will stand the test of time this is why after all nuremberg has value it's it was a means of separating the poison of the national socialism and the principles of mind come from the german people it avoided collective guilt of the german people it creates the wreck or it that could not be you know when revision and rent vision isn't took place it couldn't be taken seriously or those factors

are just as important for dice that we show we reveal we peel back the ugly face of the day and beneath the flag there's nothing islamic about it it's a complete contortion of islam is a virus of hatred of cruelty of lack of tolerance completely opposite to like graphene and it will ensure that individuals out of court before the court are individuals charged not because of their sect or their community or their tribe but because of the evidence that we have just to translate for viewers look result as in the matter of religion ok and. i would like to get your perspective because you working in very difficult places do you have a perspective on what should happen to perhaps the 10s of thousands in this 70000 people being held in some of these camps like on the whole. there are people who are family members. of eisel members. what's your perspective on what the long

term situation should be for some of those i think you soprano question and i think the status quo is simply not an option the kind of lost their status quo is not an option and i think the basic principles of humanity require an understanding that amongst those this can be a whole spectrum some are going to be violent men and women that would if they are given half a chance to. kill maim rape and terrorize communities in iraq in the region and in other parts of the world they and those individuals that are the hardcore those that we are committed past crimes and would try to do so again they need to be identified and subjected to proper investigation and you process they may well be amongst those undoubtedly women also and children that have been you know some women that may be battered wives that have been dragged along by dies by their abusive husbands that they have to be treated in

a separate way some children that are young again rehabilitation rather than criminal responsibility the welfare of the child has to be put forward in terms of the youngest children and in relation to those that have been weaponized we have easy children the poor things they were abducted they were kidnapped they were brainwashed they were weaponized and they may have committed crimes but they can't be held or treated in the same way as a very hard core dice member that has recruited them so it. requires both principle humanity and a degree of wisdom and my own view is the status quo is simply not an option we can't have an environment where all of those remain mixed together in which those that may be innocent or fundable are kept in the same environment with those that. are promoting in advocating a very verbal and. ideology of hatred and if they're kept together of course

the most virulent hatred people of hatred or not can get more moderate so some breathing rounds for more absolutely. risk your focus of is of course on investigating i wonder though if you have a perspective i hope that after or as part of your investigative work that contributes to the end of the problem with sure the end of problem joy of people joining very rather kleis groups in this part of the world go on to commit the sort of atrocities that necessitate people like you having to come in and investigate do you think that can be done simply through a not to undermine the investigative work that you're doing but can the goal be achieved simply by investigations in courts and trials or is it a much bigger more complex problem is much bigger more complex i'm always acutely aware and i think it's only fair to be quite honest about it you must have vision

have imagination and great creativity and say what the law can do but one must also be honest enough to say what the law cannot do so i think they need to prepare our processes all at once but without doubt is my. considered opinion the paper based upon proper investigations proper fair trials we can also expose the ideology that will help create a fire wall that may provide prevent that ideology trespassing even further permeating even deeper amongst other vulnerable communities whether it's in iraq or other parts of the world and i think that's important and that would be done by actually bringing to the sunlight into the daylight. the crimes that were committed crimes committed and the falsity that this had anything to do with islamic precepts . opposite to islam as the night is today couldn't contact you so much for talking to all deserve thanks to.

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