you sure this torture censorship is not acceptable and you won't hear such strong words from let's say berlin or paris or london and in cairo on al-jazeera save humanity i really really not getting anywhere near it. this is all just there i'm sure you know with a check on your world headlines u.s. president says he's terminating his country's relationship with the world health organization in a statement outside the white house he also criticized china's imposition of a new security law in hong kong he said the crackdown means the territory will no longer receive financial and travel treatment from the u.s. president says he will also be taking steps to sanction hong kong officials involved in approving the new law. and they broke their word to the world on

ensuring the autonomy of hong kong. the united states wants an open and constructive relationship with china but it's even that relationship requires us to vigorously defend our national interests the chinese government has continually violated its promises to us and so many other nations. these plain facts could not be overlooked or swept aside the minneapolis police officer who nailed on the neck of an unarmed black man who died has been charged with his murder derek children handed himself in to police officer 3 days of violent protests over the death of george floyd the entrance to a police station in minneapolis was set on fire arson loosing and vandalism was seen across the city a small crowd of demonstrators also gathered near a home belonging to the police officer in florida minnesota's governor has pleaded

for calm and promised justice will be served alison herrera is a journalist in minneapolis she's described the mood in the city. people were cleaning up were going blasts a lot of people were boarding up their windows along eastlake street so you know people are really. really angry and people are still really scared i was at a corner of about 29th and lake street just earlier and there was there was heavy minister of state patrol presence a woman was you know confronting them and and yelling at them that you know they were out here protecting you know that she expected the same kind of protection for her son you know her nephew that they were doing 2 businesses on mike street so definitely a sense of anger a sense of just why motion right now in the city you have to remember we're in the middle of a pandemic you know where there's been over 100000 deaths related to covered 1000 here in the country people are feeling i think that's just added adds to the sense

of you know urgency and and and fear here. so this city has a history of. you know racially charged conflicts between the police and people in the community this is just the tipping point is that something that they feel like something need needs to be done that's what i'm hearing from a lot of people on the streets today a black c.n.n. reporter has been arrested live on television while covering the protests in minneapolis you might as well why i'm under arrest or. why why am i under arrest so police officer is gave no explanation as they arrested omar jimenez and his camera crew on friday morning the reporter had just shown a protester being detained when about half a dozen white police officers surrounded him he and his crew were released an hour later the governor of minnesota has apologized to the broadcaster for the incident the spanish government's approved a plan to give 2 and a half 1000000 people

a basic income it's intended to help those hardest hit by the economic downturn after months of coronavirus lock down the country's poorest people receive just over $1200.00 a month households with children will be prioritized more than a 1000000 people have lost their jobs after months of dramatically reduced economic activity. russia has again recorded its largest one day increase in corona virus deaths 232 people died in the last 24 hours the capital moscow has also revised the number of people who have died in the city more than doubling the original total the deaths of all people who had the virus are now counted including those whose deaths were originally attributed to other causes russia has the 3rd highest number of infections worldwide with nearly 380000 cases you have today so the headlines head to heads is up next thanks for watching.

it may very well be one of the most controversial companies in our country's history back what do you say is being called the largest private economy in the world the jury in washington convicting 4 former blackwater security guards in the 2000 my guest tonight is the controversial founder and former c.e.o. of blackwater erik prince you do it might want a personal q. don't you disagree that branded a war profiteer and a super mercenary by his critics princes were made over a $1000000000.00 out of the so-called war on terror but also highlighted the clear danger of using private contractors on the battlefield and yet now back on the scene trying to privatise the war in afghanistan but offering to replace u.s. and nato troops there with a private security force but will handing the war to print really help end it i'm

in the house and i've come here to the oxford union to go head to head with erik prince a former navy seal and the founder of but i'll challenge him on war crimes in iraq his plans for a private army in afghanistan and his loyal support for president. tonight we'll also be joined by sean mcfate a former private military contractor former officer in the. u.s. army and author of the book the new rules of war. an award winning guardian journalist from iraq who's covered conflicts across the middle east and colonel tim collins a former commander in the british army and founder of new century a private military consulting company. ladies and gentlemen please welcome erik prince. prince is currently the deputy

chairman the 2nd of director from 2 years services group a hong kong based security and the just the. erik prince thank you for joining me on head to head thanks for having me you're back in the news with a new plan to privatize basically the u.s. led war in afghanistan but you were the founder and c.e.o. of blackwater perhaps the world's most notorious private security firm which during the iraq war became a byword for violence corruption lawlessness and yet you've never apologize for any of. i think that's an unfair characterization of the company did exactly what the u.s. government asked us to do which was to protect diplomats reconstruction officials visiting. un or or other congressional delegations we did more than 100000 missions no one under our care was ever killed or injured and people try to characterize the company as overly aggressive less than one half of one percent of all those

missions resulted in a discharge of a firearm in an era when you had lots of violence in the capital i mean baghdad really was the center of gravity of the insurgency and so we had you know 41 of our men were lost in action doing that mission so you mentioned that the u.s. government asked you to do a job and you did it you mention that you lost a man on your watch but you didn't mention is that you also killed a lot of people. you say what percentage is great let's talk about individual cases in 2005 blackwater guards fired 70 rounds into an iraqi civilians call forcing the state department to investigate in 2006 according to leaked pentagon documents blackwater guards fired indiscriminately iraqi civilians killing among others and ambulances drive it in 2007 blackwater guards shot and killed 14 iraqi civilians in what's been called the square massacre or baghdad's bloody sunday that is the rec ord that a lot of people around the world remember when they hear the name blackwater sure and when you do 100000 missions it's easy to take some things out of context but

remember you had many thousands of insurgents actively trying to kill americans and not just american servicemen but the most newsworthy americans their diplomats and with the state department actually the people i'm mentioning weren't insurgents you killed your men killed a mother and son on their way to an appointment of a sentence as i mean it kills a 9 year old boy sadly head sadly the insurgents don't wear uniforms they would drive ambulances filled with explosives they would drive so you remember those they were sure to get insurgents. car bomb doesn't give you much time to decide there was no call bowman missile square in 2007 actually right. before mr square event there was there when i was still square there was no callable scuse me less than 5 minutes before that event happened there was a large car bomb that went off where there was a protective team of ours protecting us the idea official and sadly that that car bomb went off the team decided to move through their. and a support team went to block the traffic circle so that. the fleeing team could move through smoothly and not be ambushed when the when the intelligence provided

by the state department the u.s. government says be on the lookout for a white kiya in all the other cars in the traffic circle stop except for a white kiya sadly sometimes the guys have a split 2nd to make that the source black what to say the white kids thought of as you well know because you've discussed this far more than i have all of the eyewitnesses say that there was no white kid heading towards you the us colonel who turned up on the day said that there was no enemy activity involved he said it was a criminal event and an excessive shooting a us court of law in december prosecuted one of your men for 1st degree murder for killing his mother and. 3 other hold on let me finish 3 other men were prosecuted for manslaughter 4 of your men murder and manslaughter in the iraqi courts u.s. court that's right they prosecuted them 4 times and they finally got a conviction the 1st time it was thrown out for prosecutorial misconduct guilty they found the guilty you know the 1st time it was thrown out for prosecutorial misconduct the 2nd time it was overturned the 3rd time it was a mistrial the federal government finally got them in a d.c. circuit in a d.c.

jury on the 4th time that you see jury not a legitimate jury i would say a jury of your peers does not really compare to the rest of america no that's ok ok so some juries are legitimate some so-called judges that language before but they were prosecuted for murder amounts would you have any regrets for the people who died a 9 year old boy shot in the head was an insurgent of course we did of course we we hired as the company we hired the prosecutor that prosecuted saddam to go find each of these families to pay salacious to make amends as best as possible to reach out to them did i personally know i haven't no i haven't found all of them but we certainly apologize to the ones that had contact with and it's not just these killings and the these killings that documented it goes beyond just god as you know but what about billions of dollars in u.s. government contracts and billions more than a $1000000000.00 in new. government contracts to an area are over 12 years and yet a scathing u.s. state department investigation found that blackwater quote was over billing the

state department and manipulating personal records its guards were partying drinking and even crashed an armored car and saw themselves as quote above the law pretty damning the u.s. state department saying this but the company they've given contracts to over billing and manipulating we never paid any fines for anything like that that's a fact you paid fines for a lot of things the only thing we paid a fine for it was a elation and i gave an example of the otoh if you say the only thing you paid a fine for you paid $7500000.00 fine and 2012 to settle 17 criminal charges you paid a full $1000000.00 settlement are a department in 2010 for illegal arms sales. 2012 it already sold the business i sold it in 2010 but the cases go back beyond 2010 the criminal charges raided all sorts of things that went back years including south sudan you broke u.s. sanctions to try and sell weapons to south sudan knowing going to there's no weapons in south sudan there was a proposal on the mineral you never put a proposal on table to salvage his government $100000000.00 actually the issue there was a satellite phone so you did put

a proposal on the table to salvage his government no wonder what the state department complained about then that was back in 2005 was a point in actual a very dangerous satellite phone the same thing you can buy and he threw dutifully we can argue about the fines let's just deal with this report the u.s. state department said you were manipulating personal records over billing the state department and your gods were partying drinking and even crashed an armored car a state department investigation in 2007. look we employed thousands of people and i would never say that the men were perfect we didn't employ angels we employed veterans who volunteered to serve their country again in a very dangerous place and like i said 41 of them paid the ultimate cost and hundreds more were seriously wounded it's amazing that when you say we didn't employ angels we employed veterans but right now you want to do it all again that's the problem is it not. well here's the thing after after 17 years of war ok where the united states is spending more than the entire you came to budget defense budget just this year and still losing in afghanistan i think it's time to look at

a different way i want to talk about afghanistan but just before we get to your afghan plan i just want to get to what drives you when you kind of come up with these plans to do private security especially at these muslim majority countries because you yourself have referred to the people your men were fighting in iraq as barbarians who crawled out of the sewer you say in your memoir these were the chanting barbarians american troops have been sent to liberate sure if you people that think it's ok to drive a car bomb into the middle of a square in the middle market place while to attempt to kill an american and in doing so they kill dozens and dozens of civilians absolutely that's barbaric which is true i think if you've read charity called whatever you want but you said these were the chanting barbarians american troops have been sent to liberate you weren't sent to liberate terrorists sounds like talk about iraq yes. sir look this very day was for you remember the decision this is. the u.s. decision to go to. liberate iraq from saddam hussein who did

a lot more horrid things than we can even speak of here that was certainly the intent i certainly had no role in that policy decision ok but you don't you don't believe iraq is above areas of the snow but i believe that terrorists that car bombs in the city square certainly are ok you're proposing now to privatized the u.s. led war in afghanistan you suggested replacing almost $50000.00 nato troops and private contractors with 2000 u.s. special operators. and $6000.00 contractors and you want to cut spending there you think by $30000000000.00 a year which sounds great and i think one thing we can definitely grown as we both think the afghan war is not going well and has been a bit of a failure but given 140000 nato troops couldn't control that country would defeat the taliban back in 2011 what on earth makes you think that a few 1000 contractors are going to do it now under your command because after 911 and we take you back in the 5 days after 911 happened when president bush had a war cabinet meeting up at camp david the pentagon the best thing that the most

expensive military in the world came with was a missile and some bombing strikes and then a conventional invasion via pakistan the following april case literally while the headquarters of the pentagon is still smoldering the best the u.s. military came with was the most conventional and most cumbersome approach it was the cia that said money authorities the right people who were going after the taliban and that worked ok less than 100 special operators cia case officers paramilitary guys in s.f. guys backed by air power. and they smash the taliban and they are all peoples of them but that's fine you topple them you have control of the country because more than 6000 people sure wrecked but then the united states repeated the soviet battle plan so it's not i believe in battle plan that 6000 people can do what 140000 couldn't sure i'm not an expert on mouth but that seems we did well here's the thing you have $15000.00 u.s. troops there now there's about $7000.00 nato and another $30000.00 contractors so

i'm not advocating a privatization i'm advocating a rationalization at a significant cost savings the way the u.s. has been deploying there they send a unit for 7 or 8 months they spend the 1st 2 or 3 months getting to know the area and then a couple of months they're very productive in the last month they're ready to pack up and they lift and shipped and they go home and then you're rinse and repeat you do that again and we've done 30 plus rotations of troops like that you know and as you have no continuity instead i would take the same special forces veterans that have been working there from the u.s. from nato and the usa and not angels. these are the same people the u.s. military and nato has been spending sending there for the last 17 years but the difference is as a contractor they can go and attach to the same unit and live in the same valley and live and work and train and fight with those guys with afghan counterparts month after month for years so they have that continuity is that 2nd resume the afghan government they don't like your plan they say it's a nonstarter they said under no circumstances will we allow the war to become a quote private for profit business to form afghan president hamid karzai said even

when the opposes your proposal i think you would say differently if you asked him now i literally asked his office on friday and they said the dead against it. live talk to other people i talk to other people his office who disagree with. the current office and government has a change their position is well. under no circumstance i doubt very much that ashraf ghani will win the next election but you're waiting for a change of president to get your plan. here's the thing if they don't do a plan like this if there is not a skeletal structure support supporting the afghan forces the next president's going to wind up like measurable the did the problem is the way you pitched it is giving was helpful to tell the afghans we're going to be like quote the east india company which violently ruled india on behalf of the british empire in the 18th and 19th centuries was it wise to talk about having a viceroy in charge of the country i mean you know hiding the fact that this is a colonialist project when you use language like that but here's the thing the united states has no one person that's in charge of afghan policy there's nobody that the president can turn to and say why is afghanistan after this. yeah sure

that doesn't help he doesn't control the military his intro the intelligence funding he doesn't control if i agree with you know wanting someone to viceroy in charge of east india company is going to go down well with brown folks. look for 250 years that security model largely worked of mostly local forces with a few professional mentors only acting as a structure support but the difference is i'm not there as a colonial power these these these mentor. right the contractors and special forces veterans are serving as adjunct in the afghan forces accountable to the afghan ministry of defense and of course the president if they're flying aircraft we actually found to see the aircraft where the contractor never makes the weapons release decision it is always the afghan but he flies the plane. safety pilot ok in 2004 in afghanistan a blackwater pilot flying a plane with u.s. soldiers on board flew the plane into the side of a mountain he crashed the plane into the mountain killing 6 passengers on board

including 3 u.s. soldiers the captain's last words blackwater employee flying the plane his last words were i swear to god they wouldn't pay me if they knew how much fun this was you were paying him eric prince said only been in the country 2 weeks have you your employees learned any lessons from that horrific incident before you go back into afghanistan sure we operated 56 aircraft there safely for many many years we flew tens of thousands of missions safely the difficult thing is when the your customer asks you or tasks you to change your route so that the colonel onboard could go view an enemy area on the way to as a deviation from the planned navigation accidents happen that's right it's a danger and yes there is going to end and safety board and the u.s. military both said the blackwater provided is sufficient oversight and guidance to the pilots involved in the crash the widow of that colonel says that there was a gross lack of judgment in managing this company who was managing the company at that time in 2000 full that just sold them the former operations officer of the

former operations officer 60 the most elite helicopter unit in the world so you have people that definitely understand aviation were in charge of the u.s. military the national transportation safety board criticized your company's role in the accident and they reinstated this and we were flying missions again within 5 days of that incident gray needed a very good job bush administration that's got nothing to do with the culpability that your company had for the deaths of those u.s. soldiers they didn't die at the hands of the taliban they died at the hands of blackwater they died at the hands of an accident made by a pilot flying in a very difficult area i mean blackwater executives were e-mailing each other at the time the e-mail came out said by necessity the initial group hired to support the afghanistan operation did not meet the criteria identified in e-mail traffic and had some background and experience shortfalls overlooked in favor of getting the requisite number of personnel on. told to start up the contract you're saying internally your own company's admitting to each other he's got his own experience but you need to get the contract up and running is this what you want to replicate in afghanistan now the pilots flying the mission that day had come from alaska they

or they were literally high country bush policies are not people that are flying in the over the swamps of florida they were flying on when you were executives emailing each other saying that we have experienced shortfalls but we need to get the contract up and running what were they saying that because the transportation because the army material command was demanding the missions to support the missions here's the families felt no no no no trying to serve a customer in a very difficult place we flew tens of thousands in hundreds of thousands of missions after that safely and no incidents ok let's go to our panel here in the oxford union sean mcfate is a former private military contractor former officer in the u.s. army a professor at georgetown author of the book the new rules of war surely you've said u.s. generals have a loft at eric's plan for afghanistan you've called it unworkable and even magical thinking why blackwater if this was a job interview i would not give you the contract because blackwater was simply a body guard shop in iraq you've never raised or deployed

a military like you're advertising now i have in places and it takes hold it's a lot more sophisticated than just mentors in the field it doesn't quite require up to political leadership in kabul and they've already had message that they don't support this this is a dead deal in my opinion well and that you're mistaken because we built the entire afghan border police it was 15000 people we did all the recruiting the training the vetting and we actually had mentors that went in the field with them and the success rate of these units when our guys were allowed to go with them effectively is training wheels their success rate went very very high and it worked ok so you know i guess i'm the only guy that can say i've had 56 of my own aircraft in country doing that kind of work for the u.s. military ok ghaith abdul-ahad is an award winning guardian journalist. from iraq you've covered conflicts in iraq afghanistan yemen and beyond gate how do the iraqi people remember blackwater and erik prince in your view i mean it's amazing to kind of sit here and listen to eric and speak of

a block or so in the services they did in iraq because the word blackwater is synonymous with the worst of the american occupation of iraq that is not a single iraqi that i you know i mean i'm one of those barbarians that was liberated by your country but there is not a single you who would you just mention the word black was as to who would not say corruption violence and i'm not talking only about the kind of massacre but i'm talking about the whole 10 years of the existence of these muslims and i think part of the failure of the american against project an era was due to the using of the continent is it not is a major problem that you could concede that even if your plan is a good one you shouldn't be the one doing it given the legacy you've left behind with certainly here is the thing your your math is a little skewed because the us didn't invade iraq till 2003 i sold the company in 2010 so that's certainly not 10 years the company and the company traveling with it we we tracked all the vehicles where everybody was moving ok and there is dozens

and dozens of times that it was brought up there was a blackwater event here blackwater went there and we didn't have people within 200 kilometers of that location the sad thing is blackwater became likely next it became winded you know why because you became this because what we were the largest one doing you know because you were very worthwhile mission is the reason i mean you gave the work i mean in iraq now or in yemen or any of these places they don't use the word contractors something they use blackwater in yemen in wherever in somalia they don't use mercenaries ok if you've been in afghanistan recently is a lot of if you're able to do the afghans will welcome this plan eric is putting on the table. i've met administrator in office wills high security officials of the count of one of them stray sions opposition and some of your own friends in afghanistan and all agree on one thing it's not going to work and i agree with you totally the 17 years have been to 2 ways the fall of the you know copy. the soviet

plan this is something we agree on however we're not beating government officials are not talking to the minister you're talking to all the letter either mistaken i meet with dozens of afghan officials both in and out of the government from all over the country be they go tajik and uzbek. and the warlords right all the people that are going to be voting in the afghan allies so it's sort of like an american who i was in one morning not only needs to come in colonel tim collins and tim you once commanded british troops during iraq you gave that famous speech that a lot of us remember in 2004 you quit the army and founded new century a private ministry consulting company how would you evaluate what happened on his watch what's the hold it a different thing i think what we have to remember and indeed i've discussed this with that many times with the u.s. state department the u.s. military asked for services they encouraged they were enthusiastic to a point of hysteria that blackwater go into these missions when it went wrong they

ran a mile and so you have to look at those people and say at a point where there was chairman of the joint chiefs of staff were visiting the facility and encouraging more and more of these services to be privatized and that all it and when things went wrong they turned their back on you saying the prince about what was scapegoated by the u.s. government well i think that as a result of the rather expensive court case that you've been through i think that was the conclusion in the end is that the criticism i as a contractor would level is that blackwater and the organization probably grew too fast there was people who went initially. we were of the highest delta force seal team 6060 some of the people who are coming in at the end of nowhere near and it's a question of who supervising them because the people when we look at them who were in court and convicted we're not of the quality we're not of the few how did they get there how did they get there while we're hearing paul quality circle 2 of the

end of your beat in iraq well because there's literally not enough delta force or seal team 6 or even seals for that matter to do that mission you go to marine infantry or army infantry the one fair characterization that i will say is. blackwater did 2 types of missions you work for the state department they dictated you must drive a polished waxed suburban a big a should be armored 11000 pounds lights and sirens down the road and when you drive the same route every day that the state department tells you to it's very easy for the enemy to set up an ambush you keep saying in gauge when ambushes just to be clear for the audience one study found that you black hole to open fire 1st in 84 percent of the shootings is a little defensive because when the fired 1st ok but it's not just a matter of the enemy opening fire with a firearm to attack they open fire with a trigger switch and they drive up to you and destroy you me literally but there's also you know millions drum as it's 9 year old children taken away to work whether

it's hamas in palestine in pakistan afghanistan or iraq bad guys gamble and says with explosives and kill innocent people not in the cases i cited we're going to take a break in part 2 we're going to talk to erik prince about some of his work in china and his relationship with the trumpet ministration and we're going to hear from a very patient audience here in the oxford union join us for part 2. 1.3000000000 indians are in lockdown in the 19 pandemic with millions and able to feed their families one o one east investigates the unfoldings many terry in prices. it's amazing indicates to me you have 4 associate 2 again there is a police department that has the potential to be biased in a number of different ways there are too many opportunities for the computer to get it wrong who's checking those offices who commit those data entry is wrong and if

your son the tonight is wrong to. kill or becoming a suspect before the actual crime and in-depth examination and to preventative policing pre-crime on al jazeera. this is al jazeera i'm carrying obligato with a check on your world headlines u.s. president says he's terminating his country's relationship with the world health organization and a statement outside the white house he also criticized china's imposition of a new security law in hong kong he said the crackdown means the territory will no longer receive special financial and travel treatment from the u.s. the president says he'll also be taking steps to sanction hong kong officials involved in approving the new law. and they broke their word to the world on

ensuring the autonomy of hong kong the united states wants an open and constructive relationship with china but it cheating that relationship requires us to vigorously defend our national interests the chinese government has continually violated its promises to us and so many other nations these plain facts could not be overlooked or swept aside. the us police officer phil kneeling on the neck of a black man who later died in custody has been charged with his murder derrick shove and has also been charged with manslaughter after 3 days of violent protests in minneapolis over the incidents george floyd was seen on video saying he couldn't breathe as the officer put his weights on his neck and the black c.n.n. reporter has been arrested live on television while covering the protests in minneapolis. oh i am under arrest for why why am i under

arrest police officers gave no explanation as they arrested omar jimenez and his camera crew on friday morning the reporter had just shown a protester being detained when about half a dozen white police officers surrounded him he and his crew were released an hour later the spanish government approved a plan to give 2 and a half 1000000 people a basic income it's intended to help those hardest hit by the economic downturn after months of coronavirus lock down the country's poorest people will receive just over $1200.00 a month. russia has again recorded its largest one day increase in corona virus deaths 232 people died in the last 24 hours the capsule moscow is also revised the number of people who died in the city more than doubling the original total of those are the headlines it's back to head to head next on al-jazeera then it's the news hour also you that by.

welcome back you're watching we head to head on al-jazeera english my guest today is erik prince the founder former c.e.o. of blackwater also a big supporter of and donor to president donald trump eric i want to talk to you about your relationship with president moment but before i do just very briefly your currently executive deputy chairman of frontier services group f s g a hong kong based security logistics firm that you found it why is f s g opening a training center for security guards in of all places province in china where up to a 1000000 muslim we are being held in basically concentration camps right now there is a lot of misreporting on that the company is not opening any training facility up there that was actually discussed at a board meeting the reporting got it wrong the only there was a some kind of memorandum signed for construction services now training the company doesn't do any training of any police or security forces why did i say that at all

why did your company say it was establishing training facilities it was going to sign him or you for construction without a press release march the 2nd with your name on it for contract now my name we are going names on the press release your name is on the press to me several times and it says i've got the press release. china establishing training facilities and buying security equipment in vehicles. again it was for construction services this training facility if you look at the actual translation from mandarin to english it was structured services the only other is we don't need only as your company's english press release we really only training services the only thank you. is for people like bank of china employees or china airlines employees because they travel the world and they go to dangerous places and so you are waiting people in should know their presence was wrong there is the company has 0 footprint in china so it's not establishing the training facility it said it was establishing a much as i can 20 in english language press release. the board has discussed this

twice in there is not $1.00 or r. and b. allocated for anything like that ok and you've got nothing to do with what's going on with the week of muslims and 0 ok but you do have a lot to do with the chinese government so for someone who sees himself as a great american patriot veteran navy seal america 1st donald trump support isn't all that you do so much security business with the chinese government which is seen by many including by president trump as a major geopolitical adversary of the united states and that way it is not a conflict again the company doesn't do any security perceval it does some training for people to avoid being a victim of a terror of a terrorism is that if there is no blackwater sorry no no. you're right there is no way no official employee that's armed doing that kind of secure working in china your hong kong based the majority of you're certainly going to come to me as a chinese owned is it not it's well it's retail investors everything from mutual funds in their currency chinese own yes or no i don't know if it's a majority but there's

a lot of chinese ownership sure how much the company or the executives deputy chair know if it's publicly listed it's all publicly disclosed tell us the fact is the company does grocery delivery trucking all through southern africa we do medivac we're the biggest medivac provider but there's no conflict between working for the chinese and working for the u.s. as you want to do now in afghanistan you don't think there's a conflict there a lot of american patriot acts veteran look america is a big trading partner of china and helping china connected logistics lines for better trade i think countries that trade together tend to not fight together but against fate is a form of private military contract to form officer in the u.s. army professor at georgetown university author of the book the new rules of war short is there a conflict of interest it is a concern do you think in washington d.c. where you are based yes there is a big interest so last year the national defense strategy which is the pentagon's strategy for the world shifted the 1st time in years away from counterterrorism counterinsurgency into the threats of russia and china and we all know that china.

uses its economic instruments of power to you know to look at they did to sri lanka they took over a port as if they were a mafia don so it's not just economic trade there's also a darker aspect to it and many in washington see you as one of their sort of weapons of war and you're a chinese weapon of absolutely not and because we're not doing any kind of training building their tactical was a lever to show a new building about the fact is what does the company do now i just trucking in transportation from southern africa you can deliver groceries from cape town all the way up to the d.r. see we medivac we fly people all over the continent and we do significant air operations out of malta supporting hopefully oil operations in countries like iraq or pakistan or the hydro dams look at countries around the world. if china shows up a lot of money a lot of people to do infrastructure projects the russians are showing up with muscle and weapons the united states is largely missed the boat the one positive

change the trump administration has made is that change the law changed last october for opec the overseas private investment corporation the only part of the u.s. government that actually makes money and now they're shifted a huge budget away from the state department of opec so that it is managed and it allows more investment also launch a trade war with china which might put you into different comes at the same time let me ask little tim collins this question is here you are a famous officer in the british army now you're chairman of your own private security consultancy new century how do you respond to critics who say when you run these private for profit companies you're only loyal to yourselves or to your bottom lines you're not loyal to a national government and that's a problem that's that makes you conflicted what's your response to people who say that well in the day there's a thing called international law nobody does anything on its side and if they do and then the the must be held accountable the difficulty is the only people who will subject to a law themselves to be regulated all the good guys there are meshing reactivity all

over the world the reality is that many people in this room don't realise that many governments in the world particularly in pakistan india around the middle east maintain people who they pay and deploy as contractors and these are people who are committing atrocities they won't be regulated ok so let me put up one very briefly sean very briefly what's your sponsors point about regulation do you think companies like erik's as regulated as they should be well i'm a little bit more skeptical about the power of international law in general about mercenaries because the thing about you know who is going to go into yemen and arrest all those mercenary at the u.n. and if so the mercenaries can shoot back right they can kill your law enforcement and i'm not suggesting that eric's that would be eric's plan but eric as part of a broader. strand of the rise of mercenaries what word is this and you know private wars wars without states that's of and what if the us to partake in the us eric let

me ask you this you're a big supporter of donald trump you've been questioned by special counsel robert muller over the russia gate investigation he looked at your laptop and your phones i believe you also testified to congress in november 27th when you told congress under oath that you played quote no official or really unofficial role in the trump campaign what you didn't tell congress is that on august 3rd 2016 you were at a meeting during the campaign at trump tower with don jr trump son which stephen miller then a campaign advisor to trump with george nader a former blackwater colleague of yours who acts as a back channel to the saudis there moralities you're supposed to be convicted paedophile and also joel's an israeli expert on social media manipulation how come you didn't mention that meeting to congress given it's so relevant to their investigation. i did as part of the part of the investigations i certainly disclosed in the any meetings the very new i had on the congressional testimony you gave to the house we went through you didn't mention anything about august 26th

meeting in trump tower they specifically asked you what context you have and you didn't answer that. i don't believe i was asked that question you asked whether any community for communications or contact with a campaign you said apart from writing papers putting up yard signs know what you said i've got the transcript of the conversation here. i might have been i think it was at trump headquarters or the campaign headquarters probably 2016 usable and israeli do a back channel to the emirates on the saudis don't jr and even miller were there to talk about iran policy through that about iran policy don't think that's something important to disclose to the house intelligence committee while you're under oath he did you didn't we just went through the testimony there's no mention of the trump tower meeting because 2016 were not i don't know if they got the transcript wrong. they got the transcript wrong so we could i don't know i remember i remember certainly does dismissing that we didn't hear you because we know that robert muller he hasn't been able to establish collusion it but he has got a lot of guys for lying to the authorities and not telling the whole truth is that

the problem now even if you accidentally didn't tell them that could come back and haunt you fully cooperated i haven't heard anybody i haven't heard from anybody in more than 9 months i mean i mean members of congress after they discover this media have talked about certain witnesses not telling the truth but you believe you told congress about this meeting even if no in the transcript just to be clear i believe so ok you had another meeting which they did talk to you about in the seychelles on 11th jahnu 2017 a week before trump's inauguration where good old george nader was there again on behalf of the as was top russian oligarch cheryl dimitri of a close ally of lot of putin's the emirates he stole that meeting as a as a way of creating a back channel between putin's guy dimitry of and trumps you didn't they i don't think so i was there to talk to the iraqis about somalia and some of the other problem areas that we did help with before it was also about iran you know and it was so how did you end up with a with

a russian oligarch who runs the russian direct investment fund and is seen by the admiralty as the messenger to putin they call him well as i recall the immoralities were investors in that fund and any fund manager any fund manager tends to travel to where their l.p. their investors need to be but what we chatting about with the russian dude. i've talked about in testimony and that's all i mean to say. but it was just a kind of accidental meeting yes even though georgia nader your fund raising like i've said before it lasted one beer which doesn't take me very long. so you flew halfway around the world to a secret meeting in the seychelles to have one beer with. i was there to see the american leadership that's not what george nader seems to be telling the miller folks right now does that worry you that nader's contradicted your former colleague i think it's amazing for you to try to view into the mueller testimony that it's my impression to i mean ok that's that's what that's what's being reported ok. i want to bring in you mentioned iran interesting enough to bring in very briefly before

we move on and i know the audience waiting ghaith abdul-ahad is an award winning guardian journalist from iraq you've covered conflicts across the middle east when you hear about the amorality s. and trump and the saudis and the israelis what is that all about i mean mentioned iran is this all about iran i mean of course we're living kind of people say it's a cold war it's not a cold war game or between their morality so ds of israelis and the iranians on the other side and what the minorities are doing for example in yemen and i think you work with the iraqis and you advise them at one point they are actually implementing you are of understand plan so if you see the morality war in the air and it is tens of thousands of mercenaries local forces will skeleton troops from the immoralities a war that is being followed so viciously with no accountability whatsoever within the big arch of fighting the iranians who did exist in yemen have you advocated using private private contractors to take on iran to the trumpet ministration you

know you have people have accused of advocating the past you've talked about using private contracts to confront iran no no you see no role for blackwater s.g. in any relation to iran now ok just to check before going to tell you what i've got asked one question last question you are part of a group of high profile trump supporters including steve bannon sheriff david clarke and others who are planning on raising private money to build a wall along the us mexico border you even have a go fund me paige. what i don't get though is i'm pretty sure i heard donald trump say that mexico would be paying for the war. don't discount mexico actually paying for the wall i think most of us have but yet more and more news on that look there's a lot of places where it's federal land and go fund me individual effort is not possible but there's a lot of places where u.s. ranchers or u.s. landowners own land right up to the border they're sick of their farms effectively being massive transit spots for drug and criminal activity and so they would welcome that the guy who started that is a triple amputee

a military veteran who started it and he's raised more than $20000000.00 and the cost per the you for the last people for money when mick when trump told us more than a 100 times people have counted that mexico would pay for the wall so why do we need you in this guy and go fund me page from lied to will because again don't discount mexico actually paying for part of the. there are things that that may happen that mexico end up paying he wanted to have the will do or it can say hey mexico is going to pay for paul to the wall part very explicitly said mexico will pay for the wall the last chapter is not written on that mark my words you will pay for the wall so then why you fund raising. you want it both ways there is going to raise money because people are frustrated they're sick of not a frustrated that the president can't get mexico to pay for the wall 2 years into his presidency after claiming there it is a national security issue when you have thousands of people crossing the border with a lot of drugs look america has

a huge opium and you know the majority that in fact come through legal points of entry i'm talking about the funding trumps in mexico and from the wall did he lie to people when he said what used to be a bipartisan issue the democrats have made items that are to say that you didn't lie to us when he said mexico to pay for the well given your now trying to get americans to pay i don't believe the president has lied and like i said the last chapter of mexico paying for the wall is not done yet ok mark my word i will wait for them ok but in the meantime americans are going to pay for it through your fund raising let's go to our audience who's been waiting very patiently i'm going to go to the front here and we're going to the back gentleman here with the band. being originally iraq and having spent some time in iraq i've seen how iraqis still shudder at the name blackwater reminded of the endless aggression the use of weapons as call homes or even the use of tear gas as call traffic control do you not think that blackwater has a role to play in perpetuating violence in iraq as well as laying the foundation for the creation of al qaida in isis there's 110000 iraqi civilians have died after blackwater and involvement in iraq blackwater was not the problem in iraq

a very sick tarion government dominated by iranian units that have been pounding on the sunni's and pounding on the kurds is probably the thing that led to the outcrop of this but even if that's part of it most military experts into the us military experts agree that high profile incidents whether it's abu ghraib did help act as a recruiting sergeant for groups like isis that didn't exist before the u.s. invaded iraq so something like the missile square massacre that is still remembered in baghdad may well have done helped people say you know what i'm going to go join an insurgent group that's how americans treat of private contractors shoot 9 year old kids in the street shoot mothers with their children i think massive unemployment and an iraqi government that is you know when i'm not disputing that i'm agreeing with you i was saying when you discount them in iraq you sitting at home seeing the missile square massacre didn't think you know what i might as well go join the insurgency this is how americans treat as innocent people no that's not

you know look there is a justice a process that served there is actually accountability lots of investigation for that but like i say that's what i always want to ask that you don't answer the question as if iraq you sitting at home sees the missile square massacre you don't think that might incite him to join in a surge in that all of course bad news travels fast and irritates people really about news is what this gentleman suggesting but we did not create 110000 iraqi civilians that were murdered ok. xabi and the iranians said let's go back to the audience gentlemen here in the red tide. i'd like to ask what you thing some of president trump's greatest 4 inch policy achievements have been thus far and what he should focus on for the next 2 years to secure reelection well you know the president he campaigned against endless wars and the pentagon look there is a real military industrial complex but he's trying to stop that he is trying to remove or reduce the u.s. presence in afghanistan and in syria he's been getting the north koreans to the

table and if you can actually go she and to the korean war it will be a magnificent 1st step and i think if that's if that's the case then the u.s. should be willing to pull all troops out of south korea and the u.s. presence in korea which we've been we've had for 77 years you're not a fan of iran is going to briefly should you negotiate with iran to why is it that iran is the evil regime nobody should talk to them but north korea i send them love letters he sends me love letters. to my knowledge i think there certainly is still back channel negotiations with the iranians as well but you know they continue to do. you know questionable things in syria ok let's go to let's go to the lady here in the gentleman there. hi this is also with regards to the august 3rd meeting of the 16 you said that you mentioned it in your testimony to the house intelligence committee i have the transcript right here of the testimony on the 30th of november

2016 you did and i could read from it if we don't have time for you to read the transcript so why didn't you why you why are you saying you did when you could have another go answering this question why didn't you mention it in your test i mean there was nothing to hide not all the discussion that there was transcribed and that's a fact ok your answers to the questions suggest that there was no involvement that they asked you for example have you had any me any meetings with the u.a.e. delegation prior to the official meeting and the august 3rd meeting was prior to say to our meeting georgian there is a representative of the m.p. that was one like i said not everything was transcribed from that discussion. you weren't there. you've been very kind of i admire you be very forthcoming to on this issue you're very don't want to say much are you worried they are worried about milo no not at all now ok. let's go back to the audience let's go to the gentleman there. i was caught up in this was going back to move till covering a story at the time was me and as you know we saw people getting killed money on

drugs it was in good mood we've discussed this with you before but just going back one listens have you from me. if done things differently then if you knew what you know i'm sure i wouldn't have i wouldn't ever do security for the state department again it just wasn't worth it it wasn't worth the damage or the horror of the company if we were going to do it i would have insisted like we did for any n.-g. o. work that we did is that we have cameras ok because the camera serves as a 3rd party neutral observer because it's very easy to 2nd guess something that happens you know days ago or weeks or months ago but it's very different and you have to make a split 2nd time so you're saying cameras that the implication being that you don't accept you did anything wrong that i had there been cameras your men would be vindicated if that was not what you're saying to be explicit about look because i've been found guilty in american courts and in the courts you don't like but they've been found guilty in american courts after the 4th time of trying ok

they've been found guilty in american court and we had numerous other incidents where there was a shooting and we were accused and when it was all square and we believe young men did anything wrong and when law enforcement authorities viewed the tapes. there was no for you believe in this square human did anything wrong so very simple question in hindsight sure if it's an innocent civilian every innocent civilian that's killed is a tragedy is a horror and we try very hard to avoid that that's why 40 when 41 men died doing that mission shielding other people from enemy bullets who are trying to kill them and slaughter them or hang them to burn they're going to some more questions lady with a hand up do it for my friend to come to you yes i was a us television journalist in iraq during and after the invasion i saw blackwater people humiliate and terrorize iraqis they were hostile to journalists and they were hostile to n.g.o.s why should you get a contract to do the same thing in afghanistan thank you

thank you thank you thank you. how did you know that they were black or personnel they very very clearly walking around not just driving cars walking around they were blackwater as journalists we knew who blackwater was let us know they were not soldiers they were blackwater if there were there are literally i'm sorry there was hundreds and hundreds of companies employing u.s. nato and other country veterans difference between the between blackwater and nato i'm sorry by saying i don't think you're that sharp that you can tell the difference between a polish guy a french guy or you need a yard and sharp to tell the difference well thank you i've always wanted. to do as ordinary retract and you're going to agree before this because i would carry on with that i'd carry on with your audience will go to the

debate with a tie in the suit. so i've got to be. on one fighting 20 international terrorist groups since 2014 the afghan national security forces have been doing this by themselves so how do you justify that you'll get a contract and go and do the war in afghanistan given that you're making money out of this business and you would ever want to conclude this business there and one point please do us a favor and have a bold line between the centers of the democracy is totally up to the people of afghanistan to decide who is their next president thank you are you ready for. you after yourself and you believe the afghans don't want nothing like that's definitely not going to deal with the 1st question about that that you have a self-interest in perpetuating the conflict because you get paid here's the thing the of the $62000000000.00 right now the u.s. spends $5000000000.00 supporting the afghan security forces $57000000000.00 is the cost of u.s. presence there that's going away ok the support for the afghan security forces the

airlift the medivac which is wholly inadequate right now because afghan soldiers are dying at a rate of $30.40 per day if there is not a skill to support supply provided to them how many cars i'm sorry ashraf ghani himself said the afghan forces will collapse in less than 6 months i say it's more like 6 weeks ok so there has to be some kind of capability to keep the afghan security forces operate and able to function so that afghanistan can actually have a free election and they should be totally free to choose their next leader i agree let me ask you this despite all the things you and black would have been accused of some of which we've discussed tonight but this much more you said in 2007 quote i sleep the sleep of the just i'm not feeling guilty just wondering is that still the case today you still have no regrets no guilt no ruined sleep at all over all those innocent lives taken by blackwater employees. look the fact is the company did what it was asked to it was asked to protect protect we saved thousands and thousands of people we saved many many wounded u.s.

soldiers well beyond the scope of the contract. ok we did what we are asked any any injury any civilian that's injured in a car crash or actually having your 9 year old children shot in the correct and instant since long after blackwater was involved 110000 iraqi civilians have been killed in that same conflict you know by isis so by incompetent over there i want to have george bush on the show last about his sleep i'm asking about the people your guys killed does it keep you awake at night we were asked to do a job and we performed very very well we'll have to leave it there thanks to our audience here in the oxford union thanks to our panel of experts who have come tonight and thanks to erik prince for joining me on head to head that's our show head to head will be back next week.

it's pretty cold by night now in the southeast frustratingly near frost conditions in camber for example not slush is the skies are pretty much clear by night and by day that the rain that's going through western australia is going to disappear for saturday's on in the by leaving behind breezy weather maybe cloudy weather but no rain the rain itself is heading towards adelaide or just catch adelaide's and northern part of that frontal system all the activities unfortunately for the size so if you want the rain very much on its way increasing cloud and breeze will mean the nights are quite as cold as more rain coming in over the end this sunday but what was revolving off the coast from sydney is now over northern new zealand and

the forecast for clint is a pretty wet one for sunday and fairly windy that last into monday and he chooses you see some sort of an improvement expect a little bit of flooding and pretty cold weather now i was enjoying the fire the moment you see clouds spreading quite happily out through china as a lot of heavy rain in a moment stretches through shanghai and then back further south hong kong's on the humid side so be at least misty in the morning and almost certainly is going to be sundry morning thunderstorms in the forecast for sunday and monday if not for tuesday. fun counting the costs of private free land and hidden debts what does the world of china what does beijing get when countries come pay back loans plus the man behind a $1.00 trillion dollars stock market crash was a convenient scapegoat the biggest shocks counting the cost on al-jazeera. frank

assessments tourism income stream is dead in the water what's been the result seen poaching block quite significantly and in-depth analysis of the day's global headlines inside story on al jazeera. this is al-jazeera. you're watching the news our live from london i'm dating you navigate are coming up in the next 60 minutes. the chinese government has continually violated its promises to us donald trump responds to china's crackdown in hong kong pledging to end preferential treatment for the territory it every. day days of violent protests

the tensions remain high in minneapolis.