be afraid to put your hand up and ask a question and i think that's what i observe really does he ask the questions to people who should be accountable and also to get people to give their view of what's going on. hello i'm don joined in doha with the top stories here on al-jazeera protesters in the u.s. on backing down in that demands for police reform councilors in the city where george floyd died are not promising to dismantle the police force particle a national. a movement that shows no signs of abating across the united states another day of massive crowds demanding police reform and it appears in some places getting what they want in minneapolis where the killing of george bush an unarmed african-american sparked the protests the city council have pledged to disband the

police department and try to figure out a new form of policing. our city is a toxic relationship with many outlets police departments to police things as we wait and wait for yet. a new york city's mayor says he's focusing on the funding we will be moving funding from the n.y.p.d. to use the mission to his and social services he didn't say how much but it is the latest sign that the demand to defund the police is gaining traction at least for democratic leaders the trump administration is defending the heavy police presence and its handling of mostly peaceful protests arguing there doesn't need to be widespread change i don't think you need to reduce the munity to to go a step backwards because that would result certainly in police pulling back i do not think that we have a systemic racism problem with law enforcement officers across this country do i

knowledge that there are some law enforcement officers that abuse their job yes and again we need to hold those accountable us president donald trump is mocking the idea on twitter where he also announced the national guard troops he sent into washington d.c. will be returning home something the d.c. mayor has been calling for and the president is facing more criticism from leading republic. with reports former president george bush won't vote for him and neither will mitt romney who took part in the protests we deploy suggestion racism we did many voices against racism that you are telling when you stand up and say the black wires matter and former top military leaders are also openly criticizing the president this is a moment as i said of moral clarity i think is very clear in the future whether we want to unify the country in a political division in the political division that has existed now for years or

whether we want to continue to divide the country that is a choice that the american people have in front of them in the very near future on the streets calls for change we've many wondering if it will result in big changes in the november election. where the movement in the u.s. a spa and solidarity in other countries racism protests have been held across europe some of the biggest were in the u.k. including one in bristol where activists tore down a statue of a 17th century slave trader and threw it into the. brazilians have also been demonstrating they're angry at the government's handling of the coronavirus pandemic and these killings they say president john bolton iroh is a threat to health and democracy india is reopening places of worship shopping centers and restaurants despite announcing yet another record increase in new cases of covert 19 its economy has been hit hard since it imposed

a nationwide lockdown officials in afghanistan say hospitals are running out of beds to treat cope with 900 patients the health minister is warning of a looming disaster as infections rise or more than 20000 confirmed cases but the government says it could be as many as a 1000000 cases in the capital kabul alone many people are ignoring lock down instructions to get to work and testing kits are in short supply. new zealand says it's now corona virus free as its last known patient is fully recovered it hasn't reported a new infection now for 17 days it closed its borders in march and forced a strict lockdown the government says all restrictions except border closures been lifted this week health officials are warning that imported cases of the virus are still possible for those the headline is the news continues on al-jazeera after head to head state in terms of water bottle.

from the bronx at vote in britain. to the election of donald trump. will govern our land people around the world rebelling against the. uk. and increasingly turning to the political extremes so what lies behind the recent rise in populism and authoritarianism. my guest tonight is an economist who blames the political establishment in her new book edge of chaos why democracy is failing to deliver economic growth and how to fix it she believes democracy is in crisis and has some pretty controversial suggestions for how to say i'm in the house and i've come to the oxford union to go head to head with economist and best selling author dambisa moyo why she seems to blame democracy for economic growth and whether her plan to save democracy by giving some voters more power and

influence than others could end up killing it instead. tonight i'll be joined by a pedophile author of the production of money and one of only a handful of economists who correctly predicted the financial crisis jamie whyte director of research at the institute of economic affairs. and they form a new zealand politician and philosophy electra and jason pickel and i'm for apologist at the london school of economics and author of the divide a brief guide to global inequality and its solution. maybe the gentleman please welcome dambisa moyo. business 1st book dead a cold wave when she called you the problem help. foreign aid was actually very poor he's a former goldman sachs banker so. welcome here

one of the central premises of your book is that the popular discontent that we see across the west right now for example the brics vote the election of donald trump the rise of populist parties is driven by the failure of governments to deliver economic growth yet many experts pollsters people who studied this stuff would say bricks it wasn't driven by economics trump wasn't elected by the poor or the left behind it's a complete myth that had much more to do with culture and identity issues which you don't really address and well i don't mean my doctorate that i completed here at oxford a while ago in economics and so i think very much see these issues a challenge through that lens i'm not dismissing that there might be other and you know aspects and i'll leave that to people who are focused on those areas to to make the case for that i am concerned about the economics and we do know that real wages have come down virtually every developed country over the past 30 years

social mobility has declined the income inequality has widened and so the threat of a lack of participation in the neighborhoods to people be simply given up on and work all these aspects have created things like trump and bricks and. get that that's your prism and that's your specialism doesn't make it correct the majority of americans earning less than $50000.00 a year voted for hillary clinton not donald trump when my daughter's in the rust belt states who said the economy is the most important issue for the country went with hillary. income class were not predictors of vote in fact views of multiculturalism of feminism the death penalty was actually a greater predictor of people's views on break so let me let me clarify a couple of things so 1st of all you know a lot of what you've just said certainly culture issues around immigration which have been basically. sort of put forward as the main argument for breakfast and for for the rights of trump and poppy. more generally across europe to me are masking a more fundamental problem which still has its roots in economics if people feel

that their lives are improving their future generations lives are improving i would argue that we would see much more stability we have seen much more stability in those periods a good job than donald trump also one of the last from rich people the need to hold on people hold on the wall now if you hold it i'll give you a juggler i'll give you a start of a wages i'll give you a statistic that illustrates the story as you were aware the the general high level numbers that hillary won the popular vote by 3000000 if you take out the new york i'm not about the state just the metropolitan city of new york and if you take out the metropolitan city of los angeles not california los angeles donald trump won the vote by over 3000000 votes that is how split this country is people in new york city and in los angeles are essentially very liberal tend to be much more wealthy and tend to be deriving their welfare and in terms of their living standards from a global society and unlike you perhaps i take the view is no point in me making arguments that i have no basis in fact or knowledge to make you seem to treat growth as some sort of magic bullet and yet if you look at some of the biggest

problems facing the world today problems you recognize in the book income inequality climate change more and more economic growth is not only fail to solve those problems many would argue experts would say it is in fact a driver of those very same problems would you accept i would not and i would not accept it because i think one of the key points that people tend to miss is not that we have not gained from a model where we have depended on growth we have failed to redistribute that growth in a way that actually enhances the lives of many people around the world if i think specifically of some of the examples of this there are many policies today that have have short term gains particularly western societies but have very deep long term problematic consequences trying to give a good example trade protectionism the fact that the united states through farm subsidies and europe through the economy. culture policy have locked out the goods that are produced in places like africa and south america have essentially created

an environment where we have not only created more and more impoverished people but we've also created a fed into issues of political instability i'm saying deal with the real world not your aspiration noble aspiration which is x.m.l. growth the ox family border every january they're putting out reports and saying the world is growing we know that i think the estimate for this year is that the 8 wealthiest people in the world have more wealth than the bottom so we're in agreement that rose doesn't inequality in fact increase i was very clear i said that the point is not about growth the fact is that how we do redistribute that growth and on climate change you talk about the edge of chaos but what about climate chaos is an irresponsible to talk about growth growth growth given experts like kevin anderson the center for climate change research of said continuing with economic growth over the coming 2 decades is incompatible with meeting our international obligations of climate change well there's a whole literature which obviously haven't cited or perhaps you've not seen which is focused specifically on what we call green growth there's massive discussion around this and in fact you talk about china india china is quite

a leader head in terms of trying to in the we of course there have you been there recently beijing has more solar panels than most of the other countries and they are 5 i mean i could go un's environmental protection index made formulated by yale university puts china 120 out of 180 countries in the world listen china is the 2nd largest economy in g.d.p. terms it's ranked near number 100 per capita incomes terms this is one of the poorest countries on that metric the notion that somehow they should wake up and they have an economy that's functioning at the highest levels is absurd the united states even in the last 20 years they've had cities where there's been mass pollution just flint makes michigan is not 20 years ago where they were polluted water and the notion that you're putting all this pressure on china which is still a nascent economy in many respects to me as for hardy russia you cited jonathan you still use my real growth i'm just here to order green. you don't advocate for green growth i sure do i mean i sure do many terms of time having read my book just how

my view on it might not be there is a question i gather that was you may have just wanted to limit is less of a test or less of a test on your book as a whole section i've mentioned multiple times and there are 4 times the words climate change appear in this 200 multiple bit 4 times what pages out of 3 that i can give you the very title of it's only 4 so all i'm saying is that it's great please do go home to me now tell me now though yes what is your position on growth and climate and summarize it for as innocent as well as i said i think the framing is around green we have 90 percent of the world's population that lives in the emerging markets 90 percent of those people including myself who comes from africa have been assured have been encouraged that we can live like americans live like british people you if you decide you want to go and put the genie back in the bottle good luck you will go to the panel on this just before do you want one last question i must ask this to you you working goldman sachs back in 2008 tell your is actually worked there when you were there in 2000 and at the time of the financial crash the goldman sachs helped cause which killed growth many more are

you really the right person to be writing a book about growth given the association with goldman sachs i don't understand the connection the question is if you work at institution you're part of the institution that did so much damage to the global economy and then you come around said these are the solutions for growth the biggest hit to growth came from the banks and from goldman sachs you know what you know what you're exhibiting is a pure lack of understanding on how the global economy works. so let me just let me if i mean. for you many governments not just this government in this country but also governments in the united states is a good example of this they have a clear and stated policy of cold housing for this is a policy where they deliberately encourage everybody to own a house it doesn't matter what your income is and your ability this is your going to just go down and say i'm not to become was to blame. we're all to blame because we essentially many men have a special role to play i think to put a very simple question just goldman sachs have a special role to play they paid

a $5000000000.00 for him and said we. institutions pay fines i'm trying to help you become a bit more educated in the severe. so to be understanding i'm not just saying that we all have taken responsibility and you want me to give you a one liner only your solo does only start to have a social responsibility you know there's no special responsibility let's go to the panel. to join this very interesting discussion i'm joined by. the author of the production of money one of a handful of economists the newspapers often the ones to correctly predict the financial crisis what do you when you see the arguments about the importance of growth as presented by them these are both here and in the book what you have. to be so you said government should be making formulating public policy policy requires boundaries capital hates goldman sachs hates these it wants to go where it wants to go where can it make the biggest profits and you are advocating essentially

a globalized economy where won't matter where governments won't matter where public policy will not have an effect because markets will decide and i find that that is a really deep hypocrisy in that you're trying you're on the one hand trying to blame governments on the other hand you are mostly in favor of markets making the most important decisions that affect millions of people across the world but yes i'd like to respond so what is absolutely clear is that i am a supporter of this idea of globalization the movement of trade in goods and services movement of capital but also the movement of people immigrant as an immigrant however however we know that what is defined and explained in textbooks does not actually happen in real life because public policy and imperatives and tradeoffs and real politic the fact that especially democratic governments want to win elections means that these things and all and. pli in real life jamie white's with us who is the director of research at instead of economic affairs the i also

a former new zealand politician and philosophy lecturer dave david after mr david out of i want to britain's great naturalist says anyone who thinks you can have infinite growth in a finite environment is either a madman or an economist with the. internet of course not you can't have it but i really couldn't agree more with them the the era of globalization imperfect as it being has seen. billions of people lifted from poverty it's really been the most astonishing period of success in human history in 1840 percent of the world's population lived on today's money $2.00 a day or less today it's about 8 percent i think and it's coming down that is a fantastic achievement which we should be celebrating all these funny little i mean i find it astonishing that people hostile towards the processes that have brought about what is close to

a miracle ok let me bring in let me just bring in jason nichols waiting very patiently there anthropologist of the london school of economics and author of the divide a brief guide to global inequality and solutions jason i'm interested in the climate because dumb people very forcefully rejected the idea that there is a clash there you can focus on green growth what do you think about that for it's interesting because the only reports that were published by international situations on green growth were done in 2012. sustainability with interesting is that they did not cite any substantial models to justify this idea that rich economies can manage to grow while at the same time massively reducing material consumption of emissions down to the carbon budget or to be celsius since then fortunately there have been a number of key studies which i write a lot about and literally every single one of the models that has been developed shows that that green growth is not a thing it's literally physically impossible to have exponential growth of the same time as reducing material consumptions and reducing emissions fast enough to stay within the 2 degrees celsius carbon budget and to me it's fundamentally irresponsible to have a book out there promoting endless growth in rich nations where it's not necessary

in the face of all the research we have about planetary boundaries what i thought was promoted in this group in developed countries that's not in my book i don't know whose book that it is but it's very clear that it's very clear in your book that you make it would be up in the air and i mean i'm not in your book you're talking about the united states you're talking about nations like you're going to talk about britain talking about trying to say these people are upset because there's not enough growth you're trying to say what you need to know what you've got i'm here and if i went in there would be very. i want to be here to defend myself. here. and i don't worry about the united states growing at 3 percent i worry about our emerging countries i talk about this very explicitly about emerging countries growing below 7 percent you need to grow at least 7 percent double per capita incomes in one generation i'm desperately worried when south africa russia brazil are growing a 12 percent i am worried that india is growing 45 percent that's when you also want all of america in the u.k. otherwise what you're going to own way is only to the extent that public policy is this is very right about global warming on the show going to right on mr workaholic

policy ok the most provocative chapter of your book that's got the most attention of the reviews and people read it so far is a chapter 7 which is called blueprint for a new democracy you talk about various proposals found form and you can you quote you say quote radical reform of democracy is needed to save it from decay one of your most contentious proposals is to have voters in the west pasta test a knowledge test a civics test in order to gain the right to vote surely you must see how tests of that kind could be deployed probably would be deployed to disenfranchise paul or those with less access to education minority communities absolutely and i talk about that i mean obviously i am black obviously i'm a woman an obvious stem from africa if i were to proport and to support types of regimes or systems that actually do not allow people to vote based on a whole list of adjectives race gender wealth land ownership i'd be the 1st person to be disenfranchised would be crazy and i've been accused of being crazy i'm not that crazy to suggest that i should not be allowed to vote you and tell you to be

just to be clear as immigrants i'm sure there are many immigrants in this room they would tell you if you want to be a citizen in this country you want to be citizen in essence you have to pass the test it is already the case so i don't know if people aren't aware of this and it doesn't matter it doesn't trust that you only try to eliminate my argument i said it doesn't matter what your income or your origin or your race or gender is when you're an immigrant that shows up. in these countries you have to take a test all i'm suggesting is the test is designed to eat to reward people for engagement you mentioned reward many people would say voting is a right not a reward aren't you don't think i can and a lot of and 2nd percent participation rates doesn't mean a lot are 2 or 3 percent. across the average across europe in the united states 50 percent 30 percent are people who are low income we do not want that situation the idea is and you make it harder for them to put into your hold on hold on a while you don't you don't understand the book once again i don't understand because the argument was very stern as well but yeah you're probably. the i mean.

just just deal with the discrimination you say you're a black woman from africa is that why propose a test when in the us deep south literacy test we explicitly used to disenfranchise black because once again you're not you're not appreciating what i'm trying to do which of which there are 2 goals number one we want to increase participation rate we want to ensure that the ideal of one man one vote which is essentially the mantra that everybody's been told for many years about liberal democracy we want that to hold as many people must vote but we also want to make sure that the people who are voting have some good knowledge of what exactly we're both voting on the day after break that i'm sure many people know this apparently the most googled term is was what is bricks or what is. well it may be it may be but it is you know what in a world of fake news even urban legends become fact and i think that whatever the case well you know world of news. because they are fact i don't mean they become

true what i mean is that it goes around as you said urban legend start quoted like myself and i was very clear. i don't know it to be untrue do you know it to be untrue with certainty yes so you google did a study of 1000 people. you're going to extrapolate from a 1000 people to all of the people you know ok let's all be over the break so that's. why don't we start with one of the questions the point of the matter is. i was trying to explain to you that the book is designed to target 2 things yes participation rates and to ensure that we have a knowledge of god across let's deal with the more controversial propose you say that don't just people should pass a test the people who are more qualified or more knowledgeable should have more vote or more influence you say quote 3 tiers of voters the unqualified the standard qualified voter and the highly qualified voter in a world of bricks and trump and populism in the far right you really think giving some people more votes than others based on education will stop populism or help populist ok so let me take a step back and explain exactly what this chapter 7 is doing chapter 7 offers 10

proposals these proposals are not supposed to be taken in wholesale because the country sent to different levels of democracy but also very importantly they all have some precedent somewhere in the world when the world so you're picking on a perspective a point around this question of ranking voters that already exist already in the united states in the democratic party superdelegates have a bigger weight in switzerland there is a massive movement by by the young parliament there to actually increase the participation in fact the weight of young people between 18 and 40 so that double the weight of you over the next people will go crazy if certain people get more power more votes than them based on their educational qualifications you know you think it will increase or not listening i nobody said anything about education when they get a test is based on participation not on education here taking sentences out that i have a broader context of imagery to in context ph to a woman waiting could also be tied to one's professional qualifications such as

certificate as a doctor teacher lawyer employment status level of educational attainment on the assumption that excelling in these domains makes one more likely to make well informed choices in the voting and once again i'm thinking that i am ex blaming if you actually read the paragraph before that you'll see that i was essentially saying here is how the argument goes the argument would be that you could have votes based on education and if you read that part after that. i quickly dispel that ok let's go to our panel and you are eager to come in where i was just it just reminds of be so why we had the french revolution and why thomas paine read his book the rights of man and what mary wilson's wrote vindication of the rights of women but i think i found the book disappointing in that it was show it's true that participation rates have fallen but i think the question to be asked is why have participation rates for it and that's not asked in the book instead you're trying to tell patronize the public tell them that then they haven't got it right and they need to be tested and trained in order to vote instead of asking why they're not

participate in the not participating because they find that markets invisible i'm accountable remote markets are making decisions that affect their livelihoods jamie shaking his hand why there is no i don't to be diverted by this from the idea that markets make decisions and people make decisions i think that there is a problem with ignorance since each vote has very little influence on the outcome of the election it's not worth investing a bit of time and effort to to get the the knowledge you would need to be informed voters and i think it's very interesting there are lots of people come up with ideas about how to deal with this i'm not actually all that keen on your specific ones not all of them but i think it's a really worthy area of inquiry and we don't want this kind of hysterical reaction to any proposal that it's undemocratic or all democratic systems have undemocratic elements in them otherwise they wouldn't function at all i think we've got way too much democracy you know in the sense that far too many decisions are collectivized

and they're made by people ill informed and it's wonderful to see somebody trying to engage with these issues i went down for tonight obviously jason we have too much democracy jamie says there are 3. so i actually think you've done yourself a disservice to be so because your last chapter is full of these interesting proposals about gerrymandering about media regulation etc etc but then you give this kind of absurd because. we're voting which overshadows all of that and no one's talking about any of your actual good reforms so i think she probably wants a position and then talk about the other. who will have heard about gerrymandering and campaign finance i mean i want to be inoffensive and i want to make when i want to make yours i think the biggest issues about democracy you actually fail to address at all and that is this if we're talking about the global economy we have to look at the institutions that are governing global economic policy like the world bank and the i.m.f. which we're voting power is monopolized by the u.s. in the rich nations where the global south which has 85 percent of the world's population has less than 50 percent of the vote on crucial decisions on the fact

that i written extensively about this my book dead aid was specifically targeting international institutions and the fact that the policy making decisions were centralized at a particular particular place where i'm very much removed from from recipient countries you say in the book you re critical of professional politicians as are many people and you talk about how to raise the standard of people in public office that they should have experience outside of politics of real world jobs how do you feel about the president of the united states did the electing a c.e.o. billionaire make america more stable less corrupt and so i don't necessarily like the way the president talks about women and fact i don't like the way talks about women that i call i don't like a whole host of other things but all i was 3 is the american economy is functioning this getting stock market highs all the time the unemployment rate not just for the average of the society but also for minority groups is that all time lows there are some big concerns that they're dealing with but we all have to accept that

americans have made enormous sacrifices and unfortunately until european governments start to take more responsibility for what they have to pay and more generally we start to feel sympathetic for what is happened to that an economy and that country i think we're being a bit too simplistic ok on that note we're going to take a pause join us for part 2 of a very lively discussion here with. we're going to talk about china democracy development and we're going to hear from a very patient audience here in the office would you. after the break. they say to really know someone you must walk a mile in their shoes. follow in their footsteps the state forge their way in the water. al-jazeera shares these personal journeys. inspiring stories of people persevering on their chosen path. witness documentaries on al-jazeera. the u.s.

is always open for the people all right the world people pay attention to what this one here now does it is very good to bring the news to the world from here. who are warm. hello i'm daryn jordan doha with a quick reminder of the top stories here on al-jazeera many out of the city council says it will dismantle the police department a majority of members say the current system cannot be fixed on that promising to find new ways to keep people safe it was in minneapolis that george floyd died one in police custody exactly 2 weeks ago calls are growing for police departments across the u.s. to be reduced or eliminated well across the rest of the country protesters are demanding police reforms about 20000 people marched in los angeles national guard

units are being pulled out of the city but still violence and looting last week. racism protests have also taken place across europe some of the biggest were in the united kingdom including one in bristol to this tore down a statue of a 17th century slave trader and threw it into the harbor. brazilians have also been demonstrating that the government's handling of the coronavirus pandemic to police killings they say president tomorrow is a threat to health and democracy india is reopening places of worship shopping centers and restaurants despite announcing yet another recording crease in new cases of code 19 its economy has been hit since it imposed a nationwide there's a problem as more now from new delhi we've seen people going to villages places from 5 o'clock this morning that's because india is a very religious country so the reopening of places has been much anticipated something like 80 percent of indian very important to them but it's

a whole new experience with rules in place like no touching of holy books my singing groups at the temple behind me people having temperatures and walking through sanitation before they enter and limited numbers to ensure social distancing. that. those also apply to restaurants which will. be opening today. new zealand says it's now corona virus free years as last known patient is fully recovered it has been reported a new infection for 17 days in march new zealand closed its borders to everyone but citizens and residents and also then forced a strict lockdown the government says all restrictions except border closures have been lifted this week health officials are warning that important cases of the virus are still possible those are the headlines and news continues on al-jazeera after head to head station that's a water bottle. thank

you but i don't know if your english i'm here in new york for doing with best selling author economist she's got a new book out the edge of chaos. what i didn't get reading your book is that you heap praise on liberal democracy on capitalism usually want to save it from some of the problems that undoubtedly faces market but then you also are full of praise on china and you talk about how quote economic growth is a prerequisite for democracy not the other way around so is democracy i'm wondering something you think that gets in the way of growth and prosperity so it's a brilliant question that i've that i've talked about there's a lot of fantastic research out about this because ultimately we want a democracy that functions and survives. which is he was a professor in the united states talks about this is about a model that predicts how long democracy will survive based on the per capita incomes and in a country and its arguments very which i subscribe to this very basic which is that if you don't have a middle class that actually is participating in the in the process that voting

then you end up with with a very narrow set of voters and that is a system we don't want to support and we want to have a system where the population is a critical mass to hold the government accountable and and they've argued in previous work my book dated for example talked about the failure of democracy in africa precisely because at this point our governments very rationally are able to pay attention to our foreign aid. aid because they don't have to rely on the critical mass at home and so there are there is i believe a very clear correlation so i know you don't like simplistic yes and no questions but are you saying yes we clear the so the chinese model the undemocratic authoritarian model is better for growth for the economy than a liberal democratic model at this moment in our history ok so once again i do have to explain they're they're essentially you're comparing apples and oranges the proverbial apples and oranges these are 2 very different ideological systems western ideology puts the individual as paramount the most important entity is the

individual china's model is based on prioritizing society the entity of society as the most important entity the reason this import is this is a critically important is that there are enormous social costs from a model where you have an individual as paramount many of those costs we've kind of swept under under the rug population growth so the the idea that i can have as many children as i want that's great that's my freedom that's my right i'm all impinging on nobody's right in theory but in practice we know issues of climate change issues of of of green growth and trade offs around growth but also in terms of health care there are many ways in which this idea of i can do whatever i like actually does impinge on society's ability to grow and transform the chinese model is not at the end of the day the only model and the best model because it also has its own costs but this is the trade off that we're dealing with a little twisted in a little human rights abuses it's a dictatorship well china is also the largest foreign lender to the united states and so for all objects and perhaps you're sitting human right i'm just saying i

guess i'm just saying that you should not be very good if your living in germany is very clearly going to be very very lonely whatever you larry therefore about how 1st of all we can go into history and talk about suffrage 971 was the 1st time that in switzerland women had the right to vote we can talk about the civil rights movement which is only in the 1960 s. in the united states so that's not all get hot and bothered about where china is china. is on a path it does have to do a lot of work in the democratic process it's already underway many democratic on the way most people say it's going the other direction. first for law 1st of all if you go to china and spend time there which i have there have democratic elections at the may or level there is innovation already happening in that political system and i would just by itself to into law you've met with a vision here is allow for i think it's very this is this is the problem i want to avoid because we're very good at spending time talking about countries that are blatantly non-democratic when actually this book and i think where the focus really needs to be and where the problems have come just in terms of the rights of

populism and also the financial crisis these are in the west that solve the problem tell me your focus was of the worst it was the developing world yes it is ultimately because public policy comes from the west so you talk about you know not giving the west a pause most of the guests on the show actually many of them have been from western governments i've held them to account but when you say china is masterfully executing a carefully choreographed plan for growth which is largely attributable to its political system it does sound like you're endorsing that political system which is a terrific dictatorship i'm merely saying we cannot pretend that over 300000000 people have been moved out of poverty in 30 years in china the bottom line is that has been done and no other country in history or pre-history has ever been able to do what the chinese have done i don't think we should spend a lot of time pointing fingers at china you know physician heal thyself position is our economy is and i know political is going to get in the way as i get your because i said i said our is a fundamentally and our political economy i said economies and put if you let me finish economies and political environment are under siege right now they are in

the u.k. in the us in the us yes. i'll give you we don't have a senior elise what we have is about i'm a big critic will be the less risky but while we're on the train your level don't lose yourself voter participation rates are low number one number 2 money money has seeped into the political in this is a bizarre argument that's all we're jumping on well that then you have action all well and good vote away then because i must give you my me money money. has seeped into the political process ok a 158 well it's agree with everything you're saying i'm saying offering we're going to show you that i'm offering a perspective that's focused on our own democracies where we have the opulence them we have a gala dinner and then i also have a job. we've got hung garion we go to hungary and prime minister or band talking about terry exactly how russia $100.00 using 40 percent of the energy into this country this is class a result you say because of something you wrote you're a very influential woman your best selling author the reason we invited you on the show your millions of dollars in social media when you say china's contemporary economic success is largely attributable to its political system is that not some

might say that's a response to because it sounds like you're saying that's the system you need for growth is a good system let me ask lane what i think the virtues of that system are that system is a long term system we have based fundamental schism between the long term economic challenges and headwinds that the global economy is facing led by developed countries things like debt except productivity declines versus the short termism imbedded in the electoral process in the united states have elections every 2 years this is incredibly destructive and creates this mismatch between long term economic challenges and short termism the political system the chinese model doesn't have to deal with that they're not seduced by today's voter or they don't need to seduce today's voter in order to remain in often political office ok let's go to our panel jason pickel is an anthropologist at one school of economics when you hear me talk about china in that way does that make sense the long term ism. from this argument very frustrating and the reason is because the book is basically about the value of liberal free markets and you say that we need we need more of them but then you go

into detail about how you know you admire china or the new deal or us it's exactly the opposite a common ideology so with the words actually do you follow this i mean it's quite confusing universally true. so i think it's pretty obvious because the new what you describe the new deal manhattan institute. sort of manhattan project china what they have in common they have the government playing an incredibly important. governmental the government is not seduced by short term voters every 2 years or every electoral cycle that is where the common things they are perhaps not an allocation decisions are based on long term thinking long term planning issues which focus on future generations and the target of the wrong enemy it's not it's not democracy that's a problem again the new deal happened in a democratic society so the market is sort of it's not democracy that's part of what the problem is here is free market capitalism which is short term assist and so the. reason i have 10 very near 10 very clear problems with democracy we don't

and fortune don't have the time for me to go through with them the notion that democracy is not a problem is mad it's crazy we're looking at across europe right now we've got masses of populism. a whole host of here. we're here at the moment ideology you actually support and i'm going to some 1st of all i'm told i've never got a story i didn't have to anyway but can i just because that is at the crux of the matter he's just asked the question i want to know what ideological model she supports i am not an idealogue let me be absolutely clear i know nearly always so none of your ideological he rightly pointed out that i'm not ideological obviously a lot of the line is that there are definitely benefits and merits from the capitalist western system there are also very clear benefits from china jaimie democracy is a problem not a problem when it comes to economic growth where do you stand on. well i one of the 1st agree with the basic position that democracy isn't required precursor of economic growth and in fact if you look at the economic growth that occurred in the

united states and britain in the 19th century which was basically founded on that institution such as private property in the rule of law and so on those institutions got came into place in the british legal system prior to anything that we would today call democracy and then democracy came later so the basic point i think holds what's going on in china is indeed completely different and that isn't a rule of law liberal democracy type system but i think that the main point is it's see that democracy is not required because the end indeed can't get in the way for the kinds of reasons that the base is pointing out that it instead of setting up the institutions required for a stable and developing economy you get kind of. politicians doing deals with the electorate in a certain sense of the short term in ways that are destructive. but by the way one said that i am an ideologue. i didn't say that the most popular president of all time was received felt and that was because employment was high because people had

jobs people had decent incomes and they had public services and they loved that and they participated and they voted what we have had since 971 and liberalization near liberalism is that people have found themselves becoming disempowered because there are forces beyond their control beyond the control of the governments of parliaments run fashionable it's because parliaments don't make the decisions anymore where you stand on china is a political economic model where the of it's a nation where it's a thought authoritarian it's socialist communist people are educated the people are housed and like many governments in africa the people are cared for and the markets manage but there's a lot of social unrest which is repressed brutally by the government i think it's not very surprising that we're looking very fondly back in the 1930 s. when actually the civil rights movement was just gaining momentum in the united states and yeah it's all well and good to remember those good old days but guess what people like me were not even allowed to vote at that time so i mean it might

be if might it might already be in here and yeah you said it not i so there are some significant weaknesses in the democratic process this is absolutely the case i mean the notion that we can sit here take foreign direct investment from china trade with china have china lend our government enormous amount of money and then turn around and say well this is a big bad wolf and we don't want to actually deal with them i think it's perfectly ok let's go to our audience here in the oxford union. raise your hands wait for the mark for him to come to you. thanks very much if i can go back to the question around the way to devoting. the south africa post apartheid south african constitutional court said that the vote of every and each and every citizen is a badge of dignity and of person it quite literally says that everyone. cards no given the voting is not just an instrumental exercise it's also an exercise in personal self was saying that some people can vote others can't vote and we're small isn't that just fundamentally offensive well you know i have

a sense of what you mean by offensive i'm not really interested in emotional reactions i'm more interested in something that's quite sustainable this is about engagement it's how it is that we expect citizens to engage in the process i think that we need to explore everything i was very clear that i do not think that this type of with voting works in a general election i consider myself pretty well read and pretty engaged and quite interested in what's going on in the world but i would not argue that i actually know what the best use or what the best decisions around health care system should be and i do believe that if i spoke to doctors nurses or people who work in the medical facilities they'll be better able to tell me dummies of doctors. i know which are going to say. that i understand you whether they want to have a big health care system maybe they're in the back yes you thank you from your comments it sounds like you make a you're making a very. broad distinction between governments and private companies and the free market is this distinction reasonable and that for example if we were to limit

protections that that government and force private companies like goldman sachs operate like governments so it is absolutely the case that we now live in a world where corporations but not just corporations wealthy individuals are taking a bigger responsibility and bigger role in the participation of public what things were used to be the purview of only public affairs public government think about the gates foundation think about many other foundations around the world that are delivering health care outcomes outside of the electoral process education etc so these lines are certainly becoming more and more blurred i personally think that we are moving more into the world without requiring that not only because shareholders are demanding it but other stakeholders and communities are saying if you're going to set up a company in our backyard we want you to help with infrastructure want you to build schools we want you to invest in health care and it is in the red jacket you've mentioned this quite a few times debates and dialogues in africa at the moment when they talk about

political and business politics as you so succinctly put it different people are taking part rich the powerful why upperclassman are part of the conversation so what do you suggest needs to happen for africans to take back control of the dialogue the conversation and decide what happens in our countries well one of the most interesting questions i received when i was marketing did aid was if i if i were given a 1000000000 dollars what would i do with it and my answer was i would invest it all in a p.r. organization because as far as i'm concerned the aid movement has been tremendously successful for 60 years in convincing africans that they're not worth being part is today having a seat around the table they're not that smart they're not that good and they're always going to be a drag on the global economy the narrative of africa has been in my lifetime one of corruption disease war and poverty over the past 10 years there's been a significant shift with the arrival of china in many. other countries but the and those countries do have their issues but the notion that anyone would think that there's been a positive narrative around what the stories are all africa is just for just as

women here in the work of a policy we do believe can contribute to addressing challenges like inequality and redistribution. in the almost 10 years since your book in regions like africa we've seen a turbo tax revenues of quadrupled deaths from diseases like malaria hiv hogged and we've also seen poverty rates come down and aid has made a contribution and we have seen democracy move forward in fits and starts so the idea that you know you continue to hold those using you would actually. be even stronger is hard to understand can you explain yeah sure i'm so 2 things 1st of all i don't know what entirely know what they are some aid budget comes from but many agencies that are all oprah liberated across africa are heavily reliant on their government and western governments the corrosive nature of aid is around the question of democracy on the african continent we do want to be able to hold our government accountable we can do that if actually oxfam is going to solve the

health care problem somebody else is going to solve education how are we able to hold our government accountable from a public policy stand if they are not the ones who are delivering these outcomes we do need to move away and i was very clear that i didn't say we need to go to 0 i think there are some initiatives and there are some good things that i am i am i myself i'm involved in some 8 initiatives that i think a very good they're very targeted but even the aid programs to europe after the war after world war 2 in the form of marshall plan were short sharp and targeted they were not open ended concessions that have been very corrosive to africa not just because of corruption because of inflation the debt burden that they've left on the continent and i will just say one last thing you get a whole list of positive things that have happened in the content of the last decade you're absolutely right they've been succinct significant wins in the notion that those are because of aid i think is wrong i mean can we as i say we've had china come in has been significant investment from china were able to trade with the chinese for better or for worse and i think that that is just one. example many other governments are now going to the capital markets to raise capital so i think aid is producing some help but it's absolutely not the case that it is because of

the regime which has been around for 60 years going to the general about and then the lady has been waiting you talk about the very long term view economic policy needs to take in the country in the short termism that democracy brings but the example of rwanda what he's doing he's basically limiting civil rights for the benefit of growth now in an african context do you feel that critical mass can be amassed within the middle middle class to allow for distribution of power within the economy so that. rights and progress of the morsi can take root without having the hijacked by dictatorships and things like that to get where you're coming from usually so it's a good thing what is doing on the growth front regardless of the political vice versa i believe the what program is doing is interesting. you should be saying this is. what you think about rwanda and the government what's happened well

i'm not rwanda i don't live in rwanda so it would be kind of arrogant of me to sit here and start pointing fingers at that economy what i will say is that that country came from a genocide that the world turned their backs we flew people out within 90 days 10 percent of the population was massacred and we didn't really we did nothing the international community did nothing and so you know i am sympathetic to the fact that there they had a very big difficult challenge everything was razed to the ground i think that they are showing improvement in many of the metrics that economists care about things they doing business participation there are 61 percent of women in parliament more than anywhere else in the world there are things that i can pick up and say that that is something for us to look at and emulated in the black jacket said you come to us one of the things you do suggest quite often is actually to make voting man a tree. and in brazil it is banditry and in fact more than 20 percent of the population does not go and vote and resents the fact that there is this policy and

you could not argue that brazil certainly in the last few years has been a disengaged society in any shape or form don't you think that not voting is not only a reflection of how society feels about their elites and their representatives but also ultimately part and parcel of the right to vote is the right not to vote. well i actually believe in the civic right people died for the right to vote and so i really i would i talk about mentor voting is i think it's something we should explore i think it really is interesting. you know as you know there are 27 countries around the world that have mandatory voting from australia belgium greece are many countries in south america do i think that that people the only reason people don't vote is because they're trying to send a message to the political class and they need no i think there are a lot of economic arguments a lot of people in the united states as you know the presidential election every 4 years is on a tuesday and there are a lot of people who are minimum wage would like to vote who are not able to go to

vote because it takes too long and there's a process where you were able to i want to go to a woman of the book. i was wondering about the importance of voters being informed and well as misinformed what do you think is the balance of responsibilities between voters informing themselves and educating themselves and the government preventing misinformation and campaign finance reform that will get more accurate information out to the voters what is the balance of responsibilities or are they equal i think that's a great question particular in a world where we have fake news we have social media is a different conduit and so one of the things that i've been looking at and i've written about is whether or not we we need some kind of glass steagall regulation to sort of this is really refers to the banking sector where we separate retail consumer banking from investment banking do we need that kind of regulation in the media so in other words some clear delineation between fact versus fiction and i think that's something that's on the agenda right now and i would be very supportive of that i'm tradition of the b.b.c. walter cronkite's of the united states i didn't matter what race or gender or where part of the political spectrum you were on everybody got the with this one fount of

knowledge base in one form of knowledge that is the very different now we're all sort of quite siloed we get our information for where we are places where we want to sort of reinforce our views and so i do think if government and public policy actually wants to survive we do want to have much more diversity of thought and. find it challenging on one hand it talks about kind of aid and that being a bad coach or being making it difficult to create change and then on the other hand talk about trade and then you have kind of the market you know supporting people and helping to develop economies i just wonder are we talking one kind of challenging institution for another so i did it i offered 5 proposals for alternatives as for aid and i again just to be absolutely clear you know when did i do i say we want to go to 08 even in developed countries there are areas of society that are based on charitable outcomes welfare of the couple welfare systems the government etc so we don't have to go to 0 but we do need to think about things

like foreign direct investment issues around tapping the capital markets this is just the suite of things that other countries that are very successful at the developed and developing use and so trade you're right it's under a lot of challenge and threat right now with the rise of protectionism emanating from the kneading economies but i do think that we it's not just about one solution it's about a whole host of portfolio of initiatives and i offered them in the book as well you're saying you didn't go to 0 yes well just because you knew for a mystery there was a lot of controversy around that bullet came out the book you said what if one by one african countries each received a phone call telling them exactly 5 years tops would be shut off permanently yes but i didn't say that that's what they should do i said what if what if it is a question it is not a statement. i'm a final question robert kennedy famously said in $160.00 g.d.p. this measuring of economic growth quote does not include the beauty of our poetry of the strength of our marriages it measures neither our wisdom or a learning other our compassion nor our devotion to our country it measures

everything in short except that which makes life worthwhile to do with well yes and to some degree because simon couldn't that's when he came up with the g.d.p. statistics and he had a brilliant thing he said the truth of the matter is that there are 4 categories of countries there underdeveloped developed japan and argentina. nobody knows why japan grows and why argentina doesn't and i think that really is emblematic of the field of economics we're learning we're evolving we're innovating and a lot of what has been said here are is food for thought as things that people are trying to reengineer to improve on and i would not suggest that we should throw out all the knowledge and all the impact that was mentioned earlier all the benefits and the significant improvements that the world has seen i mean today 71 years old is the global average for life expectancy with these are significant benefits that have occurred over the last half century and i think we do need to actually recognize that there have been benefits in the system and we do need to tweak and

focus on improving the ones where they've been weaknesses the reason why we'll have to leave it there thanks to our audience here in york city union thanks to our panel of amazing experts and thanks to dumby similar for joining us and had thank you very much thank. you. national borders for debate on migration is polarized into. 2 strident positions heartless and headless how do you define an indigenous brits who do they benefit isn't this more about living with a difference and you and visa and who do they contain people don't have the right to live anywhere in the world have every right to leave their country maybe his sound goes head to head with a cold coming on al-jazeera. hello

this is blowing now that's a fairly strong wind more or less the north this one's coming out the parts of iraq is not particular dusty at the moment it's probably easing really has brought the temperatures down a little bit all things being relative kuwait is about 47 rather than 49 there has a 44 rather than 48 the breeze is easing during monday and indeed tuesday and weather's not much of a breeze a class been slow moving this being kicked off by the mountains to give a few showers and thunderstorms recently they will be light of the still there more in yemen rob and southwest side yeah i think the monsoon winds are blowing now across the north in the nation of characterized by these clouds here and this is the model forecast so the wind comes up against the higher ground this this coast here the horn of africa disappears and eventually takes the rain with it up onto the western side of india but where it hits the coast here in somalia or in kenya tends to breeze a fair amount of rain which of course will produce flooding somalia is the case at the moment it's physically maga dishy the forecast for monday tuesday and wednesday

is at least wet to start with pretty steadily 2728 degrees south of that you don't expect to see very much rain nor indeed really cape town seen a few passing showers and sits in the sun but 22. short films of hope and inspiration. a series of short stories that highlight the human triumph against the odds. al-jazeera selects.

save humanity i really really getting him. to leave things as we wait. in an unprecedented move minneapolis council votes to disband the u.s. city's police department after george floyds killed a. protester in brazil where there's anger about racism and the government's handling of the corona virus outbreak. a longtime fidel this is al jazeera live from doha also coming up another record.