thing that cost on al-jazeera told to go to sarah we know let me also you how worried you are about the increase in hostilities in yemen we listen this is the moment to stop all the 30 action this is the moment to also try to on fighting over the idea we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter on the edges there are a. this is al jazeera i'm dating obligato with a check on your world headlines a dire picture is emerging of how the world's 2nd most populous nation is coping with corona virus india has nearly 300000 cases but the number is climbing rapidly and the health system is struggling there are now reports of people being denied treatments and of bodies not being disposed off properly elizabeth purana reports from new delhi. hundreds of doctors and hide their bods main hospital

for coronavirus patients on strike just one of many protests by health care workers across india a doctor here was attacked by relatives of a patient he had just declared dead who would rush towards us and they just throw the tape and plastic plastic tube at me and it did was broken it was hard to my left and i didn't i was very scared and. i still was going to throw it at me doctors in hyderabad want the government to enlist more hospitals to treat the 19 patients nurses in india's leading public hospital protested for 8 days in delhi until the all india institute of medical sciences promised to improve working conditions even further their own 830-0000 cases and more than 8000 deaths along with a public health system that has faced years of cutbacks india's public and guess

just because you know an image is that i mean it is. the for its limitations its good streets its in that it was. for the whole world to see. his father as interesting even proper treatment in hospital but he was admitted yesterday and a doctor came to check all the time since and no doctor has come to check on him my father is 60 years old and a heart patients he has a severe cough and a fever. his uncle. died from the coronavirus at the same hospital this week. to talk about it we kept on walking from the more to the hospital with great difficulty we got the body and did the funeral he too was admitted here there were no beds available in all of delhi we had to put in the huge effort to get unlimited here the worst cities of delhi and mumbai to have some of the best health care infrastructure in the country reports of people being turned away from hospitals

continued and here in delhi there are discrepancies in the number of deaths municipal council said then buried twice the number of patients and those being reported by the government this week. delhi's chief minister says they are expecting more than half a 1000000 cases by the end of next month. by that there'd be 1st of july really 80000 birds this will be a huge challenge. year delhi try to restrict the territories beds to its residents but the central government has overruled that decision and the supreme court says the situation facing patients is deplorable and ask the worst affected states to explain why the people aren't receiving proper care elizabeth al-jazeera new delhi libya's national all company says it's lost more than $5000000000.00 since january because of the ongoing fighting it was forced to put exports on hold

at its largest field this week after all shut down again libya's oil fields are close to the latest battles between the u.s. backed government and fighters loyal to warlords. there has been an explosion at a mosque in the afghan capital kabul during friday prayers police say at least 5 people have been killed a mosque official who was leading prayers is among the dead there's been no claim of responsibility for that attack the governor of the u.s. state of new york has signed a package of sweeping reform bills in response to nationwide protests against police brutality andrew cuomo says officers will be held more accountable the death of george floyd last month sparked calls for justice across the world's. europe today tz with the latest headlines on al-jazeera next up why a famous author and former world bank official wants to slow down migration of stories coming up on head to head thanks for watching.

some are fleeing poverty and persecution others simply hoping for a better future. many risk their lives to reach the developed world but does diversity make the west which we are and always will be a nation of immigrants doesn't threaten to break it apart. my guest tonight believes more immigration means less social cohesion and wants tighter controls to paul 1st appeal later but is restricting immigration necessary or is it xenophobia . in disguise. and i've come here to the oxford union to go head to head with professor pulled the renowned economist un advisor and best selling author i'll be

challenging him on whether immigration is a danger to western identity and whether closing the door helps or hurts poor countries. also be joined by. a british nigerian doctor and the managing director of the for. david goodhart journalist author and an advocate of much tighter controls on immigration and. economist adviser and a supporter of open borders. ladies and gentlemen professor paul collier. an economist with university his latest book is city oh my gracious changing.

paul collier we're both you and i were both the products of migration you're the grandson i believe of a german migrant i'm the son of indian immigrants to the u.k. in your book exodus you say that while immigration into developed countries from developing countries has had economic benefits in many ways it's been very good you also say that more and more immigration into the west poses a danger to social cohesion risks diluting our culture our national identity and may undermine trust corporation solidarity between members of the public those a pretty big claim some would say pretty controversial claims you know the debate on migration is polarized into 2 strident positions harkless and the headedness. do you sound to be volunteering to be the head of this i'm certainly not going to volunteer to be the heartless so we

can find out tonight yes of course migrations could it's like but it's like asking is is eating food good. if you don't eat food you're dead so you can eat too much just to take your analogy you don't stop eating food today on the basis that one day you might eat too much and nor do you stop migration today on the basis that one day you could have too much i'm not advocating stopping migration because you're tighter control more and more restrictions the reason for that is that immigration is driven by 2 things income gaps and the size of the spirit as the asker builds up migration tends to accelerate so at some point as it accelerates it would become too much. sorry but we do the same thing with climate change in case you haven't notice it's interesting you mention climate change because some of the reviews of your book pointed out that it wasn't really ideal to compare migrants to c

o 2 emissions in the sense well in the sense that if you start from the premise that c o 2 emissions are bad and we should control them it's almost implicit you're saying you're a man in the middle you know one of 2 extremes 1st of all your general tone is very skeptical and quite negative 1st of all c o 2 emissions are not bad until climate harm until they become an in the range of a problem c o 2 emissions we've had over the last 2000 years haven't been that the migration we've had to date hasn't been bad and it hasn't been bad but in the book you suggest it has been bad for social cohesion in some parts and that it will only get worse if you look at the relationship. between diversity and. other economic performance wellbeing. then it's. simply it's a hump shape if you get too much to. city they're more what the roads is corp 1st and that shows up in much lower levels of trust in fact there's reams of evidence

here in the u.k. for example out in europe which suggests that actually the reason societies are divided or lack trust or lack cohesion has more to do with deprivation and poverty and inequality and not to do with greater immigration not to do with ethnic diversity let me just read you one quote european study said in 2008 found no evidence at all for what we consider to be this claim between diversity greater diversity and lower trust they say that the research you cited in your book which is american research is totally spurious when it comes to europe so there is a controversy or suggesting there is not 1st of all there is 1st of all you're. focusing on what is the case now in europe as opposed to what should be focused on . what would happen if there was a big increase in diversity that's just but that's then where in the realms of my speculation versus your speculation you talk about heartless and headless and you being this kind of middle of the road pragmatist some of the language you use many would say is not helpful it's a little bit divisive might play into the hands of people you and i both don't like

on the far right you refer peter do you refer in the book almost every other page to indigenous britons or indigenous members of the population which is you know has certain resonance to some people on the far right how do you define an indigenous brits and what is an indigenous brits and. we've got to have some sort of concept for the norm immigrant population so what i mean remarkable use i did was say indigenous to that what does it mean can you define for those insurgents if we've got a concept of immigrant we've got to have a concept of nonimmigrant have a code so what is the concept of anonymous and. what's the concept of an immigrant you know my indigenous brits are we born here yes then you britain here because there are people who are born here indigenous we're ok so here's my question in your book. you say that in the 2011 census it was revealed that the indigenous british had become a minority in their own capital the census showed that 63 percent of the population

of london was born in britain the only way you can get a minority status is if you're white british then you're a minority in london but. it's a phrase you've used in many interviews many articles in the daily mail a new statesman you think you can look to the 2nd generation this is not ask a simple question is that wrong is wrong isn't it in your book you say that the indigenous british are a minority in their own capital they're not 63 percent if you want to score a point then i'm not scoring a point i'm asking a professor of economics did he get a quite glaring error in his book no i didn't read it and didn't repeat it in the news no i did repeat it in the mail i did not get a glaring. perfectly meaningful statement but the useful you mean and the use of the word indigenous right. there or there are various definitions you can have i asked you for your minutes here and you said i haven't gave you one so that

doesn't apply to this one no he certainly doesn't it certainly doesn't apply to them so what does that apply to in this context it applies to the the 2nd generation. the 2nd generation are not indigenous now according to this sentence then absolutely yeah so am i am i not indigenous the. horse you are right. but you know just sort of oh you look at you're going to me no seriously look it's a serious question all right so if. there's a process of absorption of immigrants into the society so that some people wouldn't really be culturally integrated after several generations some people will be culturally integrated within a decade. ok so what the census shows is an approximation so where would where would i and where would my daughter 2nd and 3rd generation where would we fit in by the sound of things where you fit absolutely. those british don't you're

indeed when you consider yourself as british i do consider myself a british but i read a book which told me that you know according to the definition. i'm not you can you move the definition of me twice 2nd it's just one last thing before i go to a planet would be waiting very patiently to come in in your book you talk about migrants from developing countries tending to bring their own quote dysfunctional cultures with them to developed countries and in support of this you write quote unsurprisingly nigerian immigrants to other societies tend to be untrusting and opportunistic how is that not a sweeping statement some might say racist like the prices seem working in nigeria for many many years right now argyria is one of the lowest trust societies in the world that's a different point there isn't it it's one thing to say society as a society another thing to say that nigerian immigrants to other societies are your group of people tend to be untrusting and opportunistic that's pretty offensive if

you nigerian surely i'm sorry if it causes offense the what i'm trying to suggest is that people tend to bring their culture with them we've met i make a very important distinction between culture and race anybody from any race any culture ok let's go to our panel doctor to. your british nigerian doctor advisor to the e.u. in the un on migration issues you also the founder of africa recruit what do you make of that can i 1st say that i don't take offense to what you said because i know i'm not one of those who had to find it and i think you've taken the narrow end and you've used that stereo stereotype which is wrong to define a whole community if you say you've lived in nigeria you would know that there is this. sense of trust of communities where people get together around be going to it's across the african continent where we don't even have agreements and we bring

money we share money with each other so what's the level is that not trust. to me that is trust here we define it as crowd funding but actually it's been going on in africa for centuries so there is a very high level of trust it's the level of trust of government which you're confusing with the level of trust of society not in terms of bringing habits to the country which i call my country here. actually there are some you said in your books a number of good things that we've brought one a caring attitude. which is why there is no surprise that many migrants work in the care sector respect for elders i respect you see i said i don't take offense i respect you do you think that's a valuable thing that we should all be sharing and learning i mean i read your book and i thought i defined it as a very good pub you know we were in a pub you'll have a pub quiz it's a storybook there's no evidence you contradicted yourself so many times i've even said let's come back and they're going to come back on the trust point and evidence

point. first of all my own doctors in nigeria movement so. i am able to distinguish between one another so there are. local community level support systems which are high trust. but to say it's hard to africa's high trust know that the really high trust society in the world is japan ok let's go let's go to another member of our panel david good heart he's here he's the author of the book the british dream and you and your book david unlike paul you don't talk so much about indigenous you used the phrase if i remember correctly when i read it white british you get how people sometimes are quite suspicious when they hear those labels you know but i do think it's one of the best things about the debate in the last few years is that we have been able to distinguish issues of race and racial justice

from issues of the economic and yes in the cultural impact of very large scale immigration you do have very serious issues of integration and segregation almost half the ethnic minority population now live in wards where less than half of the population are white british that seems to me a kind of concentration and a sort of separating out that it's very unhealthy for for a good civic society where people do feel a mutual raghad and they want to share with others. to get into a statistical argument because over the all the stuff is always consistent contested by people on all sides is it about the racial composition of the population or is it about as paul asked me you know feeling british feeling english feeling european because again they seem to be mixed messages i think i think these things become sort of symbolic in a way no i don't think it is about white race but i think it is the scale and speed of change let me bring in a grown who is also an economist all through the book immigrants your country needs

to. the original question asked to pull if you see what philips could be coming from in the perspective of. paul made the comment at the start that we talked about you know they're all social and cultural cost immigration not everything is good and things but it depends how much given his belief that immigration is going to rapidly increase in coming years the whole multiplier effect asper effect is that a good enough reason therefore in your view even as a supporter of the actually you know we do need to do something about it before it gets out of control and damaging and put some controls and 1st of all there is no evidence diversity actually reduces trust or social cohesion the evidence from. united states where they say they have a history of slavery and therefore polarized nations between whites and blacks studies in europe don't find that at all 2nd of all is accelerator model is not a recognized model of migration in fact it's contracted by the evidence the idea that it without controls that everyone moves and countries become depopulated is contradicted by the evidence is in africa where there is next to nigeria nigeria 6

times richer and share is not depopulated basically there are political controls between them is contradicted within europe where sweden is 6 times richer than romania romania is not depopulated its country within united states where mainland united states is 3 times richer than puerto rico and puerto rico is not populated so this is just spurious fear mongering this is not evidence based at all and you are using your position as an economist and claiming that. evidence exists but actually it doesn't ok let's let. that sort of argument. really doesn't cut the mustard the best single authority is the docking. paper a couple of years ago called the aspers finds that the single most powerful

driver of immigration migration is the size of the us can you find any example of your accelerator i can't actually there are i do so in the book you don't actually look at it don't you don't actually i don't you just assert you draw like if you claim expertise when you don't have it go look your migration actually very dependent don't actually quote studies backing up your arguments i'm sorry if you want if you want things employers of a celebration of the example given the book is turkish cyprus. where there are more turkish sleep cypriots living in britain now than there are in turkey cyprus will come later i hope to one of the effects on the other countries of origin thank you for doing the segue into the next discussion that's exactly what i want to ask you about you say that it might not just harm developed countries in the future in terms of cultural solidarity but that it actually could pose a real danger to the development prospects of the countries quote left behind you

talk about kind of the harm and damage that could be done what harm and damage you for and to specifically emigrants all migrants. they tend to be the the young the enterprising the skilled the educated. and people like that are if you like with fairy godmothers in any society they're useful to others and so country like say haiti where about 85 percent of the young educated leave that's debilitating many would say haiti is an aberration given its history of natural disasters and being next door to the united states but i take your point if we were to if we would all agree with your thesis on this particular one of the poorest countries why should i not try and leave haiti and try and get a better job rather than stay in a country ruled by dictators dominated by corruption blighted by natural disasters purely by the bad luck of my birth people turn have the right to live anywhere

in the world without the right to leave their country and it's a human right of course you would admit as you do in the book just for context i think it's $400000000000.00 in remittances back from skilled migrants to those poor countries those people because they're productive skilled energetic if they'd stayed in their country they would also have produced no more glass there's no evidence for that that's one of the last word on what the critics say about your book there's no evidence that if you keep a skilled bunch of people in a hellhole that hellhole will become heaven look there's very evidence for that no . that is abusive language. that you describe as hell hope. are the societies which absolutely have to catch up with the rest of the your employer leaving stop over keep in mind there's no evidence for the most in challenge for the 21st

century is that the poorest societies catch up with the rest read just a philosophical level it's wonder your view would it be a good thing a morally commendable thing for those poorer countries to put in immigration controls to stop those skilled energetic young people from leaving in the 1st place nobody like north korea or cuba and no problem is no obviously not obviously because there is no moral right to restrict exit that is turning a country into a prison how is it morally different to say you can't stop people from leaving so what we'll do is we'll do that for you by stopping them from coming what i'm advocating is people should. get skills education go back to come here to work and settle you do you want less i don't want less i want to. prevent an acceleration certainly let's go back to our panel this movement of peoples especially from the developing world to develop world can be if the brain drain

exceeds the brain very damaging what's your response to that is not just the developing countries even this country is losing skills to australia to canada so it's it's all about people searching for petunia. and people will continue to search a lot of people actually are going back to the continent of africa and i'm sure you know that this is not about that so there is a lot of speculation going on what the what we can do is restrict the flow of money from the very rich who take money from these countries and bring it to the west i'm in battle with you to try and. break the banking secrecy which permits david you've been a journalist for many years been around the political scene surely you and i both know that when governments are making these decisions about restricting immigration and keeping foreigners out it's not very much to do with caring about the developing countries and their futures. it is. reacting to public opinion although

actually i think let's not take people who take the brightest in the best from all those countries and the the area where this is most scandalous that we haven't spoken about is the area of health care i think to something like one 3rd of all the nurses working in london have come relatively recently from other countries many of them very poor countries that cannot afford to lose their trained health care workers and what's your response to david and paul there's a contradiction at the heart again of his book i mean in the beginning he is explained his theory of under-development which is that poor countries are poor use of what he calls dysfunctional social models now if that's true why would preventing skilled people change anything it's a dysfunctional social model that makes them poor or so keeping the skilled people there they're still going to be poor i mean and look at north korea. it prevents emigration has that somehow made it rich your argument simply don't stand up they're absolutely incoherent and ridiculous as to this. point last point at the

end if you don't say having said how terrible it is that they're skilled immigration from poor countries you then say that actually rich countries should select migrants on the basis of skills and employability you left sheffield to go work in washington at the world bank for your self improvement ditch if since you're so brilliant sheffield presumably lost out as a result should you have been prevented from moving i don't think so should you have stated your field full of your being. i chose my self interest there was a tension as there is with a lot of migrants between do i look after myself or do i care about the people left behind while some of them are doing both by sending about income to sell those countries. that the average migrant from a poor country sends back a $1000.00 a year. that's not a great sign if they're bright energetic and skilled and they stayed

in their country they'd probably generate more than a 1000 total assumption probably in the evidence is not there is no evidence evidence of something but there's always been as it really. counts in formal remittances can i just corrected a person there is a lot of informal images which you have mill idea about. take a break we're going to come back in part 2 to talk about one other area of the migration debate because a lot of heat asylum and immigration and proposals for what to do with refugees will also be hearing from our audience here in the oxford union join us for part 2 of head to head after the break. june 19th 67 sixty's there redrew the map of the middle east this record is a victory of the ended war for the greatest tragedy in the history of islam 50 years later al-jazeera explores the events leading to the war and its consequences

which are still felt today we tried to do with nations we tried to make. contacts with different countries and it was clear that all this was to do with the war in june. from our coverage of africa is what i'm most proud of every time i travel there whether it's east or west africa people stopping in tell me how much they appreciate our coverage and our focus is not just on their suffering but also on the more after lifting and inspiring stories people trust algeria to tell them what's happening in their communities in kiev and i'm biased and as an african i couldn't be more proud to be part of the whole. city has become a major global issue the demand is going straight up and the supply is going straight down turning an essential natural resource into a commodity traded for profit just because lawyers. be approached what about the

guy that can afford it and that guy still needs water in a new 2 part series out his ear examines the social financial and environmental impact of water privatized loads of water on al-jazeera. the soldiers arrived at in obligato with a check on your world headlines india has reported a record daily increase of coronavirus cases making it the world's 4th worst hit country with cases almost hitting 300000 hospitals appear to be under strain but the government has continued easing restrictions on shops and factories have been reopened even as reports emerged of people being denied medical treatments and bodies not being disposed off properly. libya's national oil company says it's lost

more than $5000000000.00 since january because of the ongoing fighting it was forced to put exports on hold at its largest field this week after it was shut down again libya's oil fields are close to the latest battles between the un backed government and for fighters loyal to warlords $24.00 have to. the governor of the u.s. state of new york has signed a package of sweeping reform bills in response to a nationwide protest against police brutality andrew cuomo says officers will be held more accountable the death of george floyd last month sparked calls for justice across the world. there is no quick fix to this there is no more well stop tear gas. change the uniforms that's not with this is about my fruits and it would be a mistake if we went down that path this is systemic reform a police departments this is sitting there and taking

a look at exactly what they do and have been doing and looking at it through a new lens of reform and reinvention because this has been 4050 years in the making there has been an explosion at a mosque in the afghan capital kabul during friday prayers police say at least 5 people have been killed and a mom who is leading prayers is among the dead thousands of people across hong kong have marched and sang protest and times to mark one year since demonstrations hit a turning point they've been commemorating a rally last year when tens of thousands of people were dispersed by police officers surrounding the city's legislative building the protesters delayed the debate of an extradition bill that's 5 months of demonstrations and was also the plea shots those are the headlines it's back to head to head next then it's the news hour at the top of the hour i'll see that by. thank you.

welcome back to head to head on al-jazeera we are talking about immigration with professor paul collier of oxford university in part one we talked about immigration from south to north we talked about integration we talked about the effect on the so-called left behind countries i just want to ask you this one group of migrants even the most hardline critics and opponents of immigration tend to put to one side and treat more generously all refugees and asylum seekers most people think we have a moral and a legal obligation to open our borders to people fleeing conflicts and persecution and you say the same in your book exodus but then you add this rather some might say you say when peace is restored you say people should be quote required to

return just to clarify would you forcibly we treat refugees to their countries of origin against their will maybe no matter how long they've been settled in a new country of course not the cool thing we should be focused on with conflict trees the conflict. of conflict. and the post conflict countries are the most vulnerable societies in the world very often they revert to conflict and so again a vital task is to try and make that conflict recovery. as successful as possible i work with a lot of conflicts societies and governments and the standard problem that governments face post conflict is that all the skilled people are left. and so i do think it's responsible to have policies which encourage people to go back when

you should required to return so that that would be an overstay right but with your existing yeah ok it's my of a 2nd event is it's really to try and focus on the issue that it's of course it's very important to protect the skilled and educated by taking them out of the society whilst the conflict is happening but it's just to clarify while the conflicts happening if it's going on for years as many conflicts do should they have the right to settle here and work here that the presumption should be. that people should be. provided with a safe refuge with that with some sort of presumption of return and of course most refugees. don't. come to rich societies the other refugee camps and so there the real challenge agree much more important you say that you

say that those conflicts don't last that long according to the u.n.h.c.r. the average refugee now spend 17 years as a refugee rather than 9 years a decade previously some of these conflicts in places like iraq afghanistan the democratic republic of congo even in pakistan violence doesn't seem to be abating at all i mean how do you say to people now's the time safe when you decide it's safe we must encourage all to go back quite often. there are there are a peace settlements which to mark. an end to conflict a time where without a peace settlement people can stay but if there's only a settlement only sure if there are so iraqis today if you take a real world example iraqis living in the west would you don't want them to be required to return to encourage to return of course not of course means it's still in conflict very obviously while they're here with their families they shouldn't integrate they should where possible retain their links. with iraq so that when the conflict is over which it will be. then they can go back

and help rebuild their country if you've been in the country 10 years 12 years 15 years 20 years you've had kids they've gone to school they've never seen that country that you moved from they don't speak the language absolutely required to return no no of course not but there's a desperate situation or a small group of people trying to restore a country desperately short of skilled people who know the society and the key resource to draw on is the skilled the aspirant even in afghanistan one of my students last year. gone by is trying to rebuild the society is brave you probably he was a hero because he volunteered to go and do that he didn't do that as a british government pressuring no get out but we have a duty of rescue in a context in which there's a larger duty to try and help rebuild these societies from being smashed up

conflict is not agreement and the same would say divorce those 2 debates the refugee debates too important to be tacked on to the development of the private poor refugee debate is not what happens here it's what happens in the refugee camp well it's interesting you raise that issue because of course a lot of people here talk about the issues of refugee in asylum and you raise the issue in your book actually the west as a whole doesn't take enough refugees to begin with i think britain takes less than one percent of the world refugee population and developing countries take something like 86 percent of the world's refugees up from 70 percent a decade ago the refugees overwhelmingly are going to continue to be in countries that border areas of the country so the fate of refugees. does not really depend on whether a few 1000 more harm to the rich society is what matters is what happens to the millions agree and so agree it doesn't change our fundamental responsibility

is to make the those refugee camps far better place we call it economically opposite mutually exclusive we could it's a referral there's no different very polish peripheral because last year the british government took 90 syrians not 90090 syrians and it is a shame i fully understand how many hundreds of thousands or millions of syrians actually need refuge and yes i'd like us to give more money to refugee camps and also take in more refugees would you find ok. but the real balance of priority is the camps agreed let's go to our let's go to our panel. paul talks about refugees should be keeping links with the countries they fled from in order to be ready to go back and help rebuild i'm surprised that i mean i know that they already do that and many of them i know of a lot of afghans healthcare professionals working in this country who go home

regularly a medical mission trips to south sudan to somalia so in terms of not counted your previous argument where you were saying these people shouldn't these middle class people you've described actually doing more. to take materials they sacrifice a lot sacrificial given there's a difference between just throwing money out and sacrificing your life to do this like you did that knowledge that in the book let me let me bring in david david you'll remember in this country we talked about the u.k. context a lot of the stuff about immigration you talk about how the debate has changed what's your position today on the on the refugee asylum part of this debate i think most people in this country still believe in the idea of providing asylum i mean one of the problems here is though that the definition of. qualifies for asylum has expanded and expanded and expanded so there are now on some calculations perhaps 1000000000 people out there in the world who could technically qualified to come here as an asylum seeker which i think is

a problem. but then if you are thinking about places that are experiencing civil war or natural disasters of one kind or another we should pay a decent temporary. villages cities for people like that and they can then keep an eye on what is happening in their country they'll be closer to what's going on and they will know when it is safe to return to your point if they do reach it and many do reach it through genuine persecution and are ended up settling here for several years do you believe they should have the right to settle here have children if they are genuine asylum seekers who whose lives are in danger in some way in the country they come down saying the danger is gone with several years down the line but they've been here they're working they got no i don't think it is actually to leave. the presumption should be they should go back. briefly philip to run. again for his argument i mean he he says only it you agree only a tiny proportion of refugees go to the west so it's only

a tiny proportion why is it so essential for their country's future that tiny proportion go back. to leap. who are the refugees who get to the west there the more educated. more able the people best able to get out. the people with the biggest incentive to get out of the most educated right now that's perfectly sensible it with us by it's a rational self-interest of the people who are living off a little social category only sense of highly skilled it's it's it's the poor it's the middle class it's the even the rich it's all sorts of people just there's this place from sarah that's just not true for the people who have education a much more likely to come as far as the west than the people with their ok let's leave it there we're going to bring in our audience to ask some questions trying to

keep your points short as possible is go here to the front row later here in the front row and then we'll go to the back isn't it arguable that. in those countries where we have either started the conflict or we have prolonged the conflict that we have a greater moral responsibility to take in more refugees rather than giving the burden to the neighbors i was so just want to say that under the 151 united nations refugee convention we have a legal obligation to take in genuine refugees and the convention does not put a time limit on how long these refugees can stay ok. yes webb where we where we cause conflicts we've obviously got more moral responsibility than where we didn't cause them but. we've still got a moral responsibility even where we didn't cause them because basically we should

be navigating by need here but the but the but to just to reiterate. migration to the west is a peripheral aspect. of what to do when there's a conflict the really important thing is to help to rebuild the society after conflict whilst treating the vast number of refugees well during the conflict what the legal point she made that actually what you propose is illegal under international law to set a time limit on how long refugees can stay i'm an economist not a lawyer and i tend to think that. the lawyers look at things in a rather blinkered way that what we should and what my home is not proud of what economists look at is try to look at is what's best for society ok let's go to the lady in the row and then the gentleman next to

a migrant from malawi in africa there's been a lot of mention quite a lot about the damage that migrants from my part of the world to t.k. culture i want to know exactly what do you mean by that when you talk about trust to me the biggest abuses are so hard to trust on a massive scale lately has been linked to the great recession which had nothing to do with people from my part of the world and a lot of us become citizens as well our story becomes part of britain story you know isn't this more about living with difference and you're an easy is that you have to earn. and for if you got a sense that i'm saying immigrants from malawi or anywhere else are called problems in britain or anywhere else i'm not right. you are. you're misinterpreting. pretty fundamentally what i'm saying. so. we have more. was go back to the beginning discussions we

still know it's been good till now it's been good but in the future it's going to be bad. that's what i'm struggling i've been struggling with throughout or maybe you're not really struggling what i'm saying what or what i say. is that there is a good reason to think that migration left to itself without controls would accelerate the red herring who's leaving to itself who's calling for migration without control by half a 1000000 a year we were going to have a population of 18000000 by 2050 i mean nobody has any direct you know. because of the future but it is about this scale it's about this scale of change now this audience is mainly you know highly educated mobile liberal that they are comfortable you're comfortable with change most people in most societies are not they've not taken account of those perfectly normal human feelings and polish he also says in his book that microstrip be selected on the basis of cultural distance

so actually he doesn't want people from malawi he wants more people who he considers similar to himself ok hold on. hold on hold on guys it's audience section promise don let's bring in some more gentlemen here next yes yes i wanted to say that there was this debate between. diversity and trust but you know i think trust is maybe overrated i mean i come from ireland we had to indigenous populations katha the comparable the student the been there for hundreds of years they didn't trust each other and they fought against each other and kill each other and in fact it might have been good if you had people from china from somewhere maybe to actually go there and i also think that we don't need this trust we need the rule of law so you have the rule of law and i might not trust you you might not trust me you're a stranger i'm not from your village you're from another village you're from another religion but we exist within the rule of law tradition. and we get along ok holding

. feeley polarized societies. of the worst night and so as you wittily point out a bit of diversity the brakes polarized nation might be might be an improvement and probably would have been on. the point about. law as a substitute for trust do we want a society that has mutual respect or do we want a society that moves beyond mutual respect to mutual regard. and the mutual respect is what you would see through the law you have to respect each other like it or not as it were but. a good society actually moves beyond respect to mutual regard because it's that move that actually builds

willingness to be generous to other people gentlemen here in the 2nd which is a question for the professor do you think that a sensible policy for migration you're talking about temporary migrants might be to allow in only the work themselves to keep their families outside of the countries to not allow them to vote to only allow them to go back home maybe 3 weeks every 2 years to keep them in inferior conditions to give them worse health facilities and the reason i ask this is because it seems to work really well in qatar. saudi arabia and countries out there doesn't it's not here to speak about arab regimes he said speak about his book so i asked him could be very good i think if you will came here tonight and asked him a series of questions about how he thinks about how abysmally gulf kingdom street there might be a very odd one hour that me and paul collier spent talking about that to be fair to the questioner. i do discuss the gulf migration policies in the

book and what i say about them and what i say about them is that. for somebody like philip they're perfect they get all loads of economic gains so they tick all the economic boxes and. they are absolutely disgusting and not something that a western society could turn to slide i mean i don't. think is a point why don't we let more of them into the u.k. that's what i'd like to see would you like to see that as well because a lot of people would like to come and work here i'm sure but you and david be the 1st people. no this is not ok let's go back to the audience with the theater let's take let's take the coolest text and we'll be waiting very patiently here in the jacket 2nd row mike's coming to stand by. my name is i've. already fled from the country

because of a problem caused by the british. my arrival here i was detained for several months before the legal battle i won my case i was given they refused it was. so my question to you according to your book is hard do you plan to get refused is we've been here for more than 70 years to return and rebuild a country. that involves forcefully move. isn't a fix to these families no of course not right. so let me be clear about not i'm not advocating for st patrick's asian i don't know which country you're from. cameroon. the. but the we could go around the circle again but no one i'm not sure that your britain is now your home and if so you're right. but there's clearly

a need in the cameroon to. for some people to help. build that society so that it catches up with britain so that future generations in the cameroon don't face this huge income gap and lack the civil rights. to take hold of them. running out of time gentlemen in the 3rd row yes it strikes me that a lot of this discussion has been about self interest verses in your interest for the community i myself am from malaysia but i've been raised in the us i have an american accent how would you engender this sense of community values what we need to do for that so that at least the people that aren't forced migrants are interested in going back many migrants reconcile that tension by actually doing a lot for their original societies. and but that is a process that to be basically to be to be celebrated and encourage but i think it's very important that. we shouldn't. just look at.

interest there's a sort of libertarian cult which is quite common in in economics which basically reduces to people should be free to pursue their self-interest and i think the real limits to pull one last question for me before we finish there's a lot of ignorance obviously on the subject a lot of fear mongering from certain sections of the political spectrum opinion polls suggest that a lot of british people lot of french people or americans or the canadians. overestimate for example how many migrants are living in their societies as a lot of fear fear of change to quote david. what do you say to people who say that when we obsess about immigration in this way when we have this perspective. and when you write about the that we all worry about the future accelerating rate and the harm that may come you'll simply playing into that histeria you're playing into

that ignorance rather than kind of challenging it and controlling it 1st of all i really whatever i can be accused of. creating europe's histeria about migration are not guilty right nobody should know because you don't you that. what i worked at my wider point which i was trying to make about some of the theory around this debate what we've got is a polarized strident debate in which the extremes shout a lot and the center stays silent because center politicians should just. want the subject to go away and that is a dereliction of duty on the part of the politicians of the center we need to seize the debate to say it's not. migration is terrible migration is wonderful migration is

a relatively minor process for the rich countries that needs to be managed bearing taking into account the rather more important interest of the poor societies from which these people are coming and of course you would have if you would acknowledge i think the statistic out there that i came across that 97 percent of the world's population actually live in the country where they were born and since the release that we're talking i think i read percent in the book right around that we're talking about a time that a tiny element the reality for the future is not that we all turn into a global soup the reality for the future is people will live predominantly 97 percent in their own countries actually the big migration flows if we look at century since the big migration flows will have gone down not up. one thing in which phillips wrong which i was

a nice point on which to end is that. is that going down the range and i feel is everything i like ration is not an integral part of globalization globalization of trade of capital flows is actually arms turner to move to moving people we shouldn't be moving people to jobs we should build a world in which jobs move to people who will have to leave it there thank you very much. as you did the oxford union thank you very much for our audience here in the uk to our wonderful panel of experts thank you very much for watching at home this debate is not going away could not. the wreath of.

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a strain i knew i wanted to bits and pieces the bulk of the rain is coming in with this mass you can see here there's a fungus has to work its way across the great by it's drought saturday that'll bring some fairly brisk winds but also rain showers across as the south australia i'm beginning to push across into victoria as well for time being we've got some good case skies across the region here of new south wales. along the coast of queensland and it should be mostly dry across both islands of new zealand out across the west as the clouds in perth of the rain showers should clear through. sunday 21 degrees but we could just have one or 2 shots is quite a strong flow by then more showers across the southeast pushing down across into tasmania and very heavy rain working its way through new south wales and lingering along that queensland coast then up into asia and in japan this very heavy rain on the cars and a few showers in the last few as it has made way to seems that this in tokyo is very nice but i have to say as we go through south of the on sunday probably not

that pleasant we've got some very heavy rain pushing and it's all part of the seasonal rains that trail right there back into central areas of china they'll pop up again on sunday but as you can see pushing across the southern regions of the korean peninsula and once again through japan. frank assessments tourism but income stream is dead in the water what's been the result seen perching go out quite significantly informed opinions there has been a very aggressive political rhetoric that has become very normal in israeli society in-depth analysis of the day's global headlines it's time for new policy gives a country that you cannot all be disintegrating but it's written in this the leading to all we all continue inside story on al-jazeera throughout history human kind has come together to prevail in our darkest moments this is a moment for pretty much the opposite side laying low saving humankind by

really really not getting near to every generation has its moment where individual sacrifice makes way for the good of those who come after this war is ours. this is al jazeera. you're watching the news hour live from london i'm terry navigator coming up in the next 60 minutes overwhelmed with the number of dead hospitals and cemeteries in india struggle as the coronavirus caseload becomes the world's 4th largest. the fight for libya and for its own the talking continues but there is no sign of

a ceasefire. cities across the u. .