it's to americans before the fault follow the us elections on an. understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the wound so no matter when you. encounter for that matter to you. i don't know how the top stories here on al-jazeera and a lockdown has been reimposed in parts of china's capital after 45 people at a wholesale market tested positive for a coronavirus what's being called a wartime emergency in beijing as for schools to delay reopening following 2 months of no infections katrina has ball from beijing. so what we know is that this new cluster of cases centers around a wholesale market in beijing called sinful market now this is the biggest wholesale market in the city it's located in the southwest of the city in

a district called fun time which is about an hour's drive from downtown beijing now we know about $4000.00 workers work at this market in 1st came to the attention of the authorities when on friday yesterday 2 men had symptoms but of the corona virus and tested positive for it one of these men had no trouble history and the 2nd one had recently returned from spending a week in the east of china now after these 2 men were tested positive authorities proceeded to test those linked to these men about 2000 people have been tested so far and from that round of testing 7 people have been confirmed to have the court a virus and had symptoms and $45.00 so far have tested positive without any symptoms other asymptomatic cases another interesting thing about this cluster is that the authorities are saying that a sample of the corona virus was actually found on a table in the market of a stall or in a selling seafood and apparently the stall on a specialized in selling imported salmon and so that's also created

a little bit of panic around the city regarding the sale of seafood around around the capital hundreds of protesters including far right activists have gathered in london despite police warnings to stay at home these are live pictures the leaders of far right groups say they intend to protect start choosing the city from the races and demonstrators dozens of people surrounding him immoral to the former british prime minister winston churchill that was found lines during his massive protest last week it's now boarded up general has more details from there is very evident concern that to protest if they are allowed to get into any sort of proximity with one another could spark off violence the police are here in very visible numbers behind me far right wing protesters have gathered in parliament square initially around the statue of winston churchill now boarded up that was the face last weekend by black lives matter protesters with the words was a racist written beneath his name that has obviously been a real touchstone. brazil has overtaken britain to have the world's 2nd highest

number of covert 1000 deaths more than 150 toilet seats were reported on friday raising the total to nearly 42000 brazil is 2nd to the u.s. with the largest number of infections it's kind of the prime minister says police video of the violent arrest of a problems indigenous chief is shocking raises questions about the use of force the dash cam video is being used in a legal challenge to criminal charges filed against a chief of them of the police say they use reasonable force after he resisted arrest for an expired license plate in march. i think everyone who's seen this video has serious questions about what exactly happened about how it happened this way and about that use of force that we saw that's why we're calling for an independent transparent investigation that will get the answers that so many question people are asking right now the events that have been brought to light over the past days highlight that without question there is systemic discrimination

within our institutions including within the r.c.m.p. police in seattle have been ordered to temporarily stop using tear gas and pepper spray to break up peaceful protests the 2 week old order comes as rallies against police brutality continue in the city demonstrators have also taken over 6 block area declaring it a police free zone president donald trump has threatened to send in the military to push the protesters out. rare anti-government protests are continuing in the southern syrian town of sway to the days demonstrators in the government held there have demanded the resignation of the president bashar al assad they blame his government for the collapse of the economy after years of civil war but also calling for the release of prisoners. the update the headlines got more news here on out to 0 right after head to head after it's.

some are fleeing poverty and persecution others simply hoping for a better future. many risk their lives to reach the developed world but does diversity make the west which we are and always will be a nation of immigrants doesn't threaten to break it apart. my guest tonight believes more immigration means less social cohesion and wants tighter controls to paul 1st appeal later but is restricting immigration necessary or is it xenophobia . in disguise under the house and i've come here to the oxford union to go head to head with professor suppose the renowned economist u.n. advisor and bestselling author i'll be challenging him on whether immigration is a danger to western identity and whether closing the door helps or hurts poor

countries. also be joined by banjoko a british nigerian doctor and the managing director of the for. david goodhart journalist author and an advocate of much tighter controls on immigration and philip economist adviser and a supporter of open. ladies and gentlemen professor paul cauley. an economist with university his latest book. how migration is changing. paul collier we're both you and i were both the products of migration you were the grandson i believe of a german migrant i'm the son of indian immigrants to the u.k.

in your book exodus you say that while immigration into developed countries from developing countries has had economic benefits in many ways it's been very good you also say that more and more immigration into the west poses a danger to social cohesion risks diluting our culture our national identity and may undermine trust cooperation solidarity between members of the public those a pretty big claim some would say pretty controversial claims you know the debate on migration is polarized into 2 strident positions heartless and the headless. body you sound to be volunteering to be the head of this i'm certainly not going to volunteer to be the heartless so we can find out tonight yeah of course migration is good it's like but it's like asking is is eating food good. if you don't eat food you're dead

or you can eat too much just to take your analogy you don't stop eating food today on the basis that one day you might eat too much and nor do you stop migration today on the basis that one day you could have too much i'm not advocating stopping migration because you're tighter control more and more restrictions the reason for that is is that immigration is driven by 2 things income gaps and the size of the spirit as the us rebuilds up migration tends to accelerate so at some point. as it accelerates it would become too much. sorry but we do the same thing with climate change in case you haven't notice it's interesting you mention climate change because some of the reviews of your book pointed out that it wasn't really ideal to compare migrants to c o 2 emissions in the sense well in the sense that if you start from the premise that c o 2 emissions are bad in which you control them it's almost implicit you're saying

you're a man in the middle you know one of 2 extremes 1st of all your general tone is very skeptical and quite negative 1st of all c o 2 emissions are not bad until climate until they become an in the range of a problem c o 2 emissions we've had over the last 2000 years haven't been that the migration we've had to date hasn't been bad and it hasn't been bad but in the book you suggest it has been bad for social cohesion in some parts and that it will only get worse if you look at the relationship. between diversity and. other economic performance well being. then it's. since it's a hump shape if you get too much diversity then what what the roads is cooperation 1st and that shows up in much lower levels of trust in fact is reams of evidence here in the u.k. for example out in europe which suggests that actually the reason societies are divided or lack of trust or lack cohesion has more to do with deprivation and

poverty and inequality and not to do with greater immigration not to do with ethnic diversity let me just read you one quote european study said in 2008 found no evidence at all for what we consider to be this claim between diversity greater diversity and lower trust they say that the research you cited in your book which is american research is totally spurious when it comes to europe so there is a controversy or suggesting there is another 1st of all there is 1st of all you're . focusing on what is the case now in europe as opposed to what should be focusing on. what would happen if there was a big increase in diversity that's just but that's where in the realms of my speculation versus your speculation you talk about heartless and headless and you being this kind of middle of the road pragmatist some of the language you use many would say is not helpful it's a little bit divisive might play into the hands of people you and i both don't like on the far right you refer peaceably refer in the book almost every other page to

indigenous britons or indigenous members of the population which is you know has certain resonance to some people on the far right how do you define an indigenous brits and what is an indigenous person. we've got to have some sort of concept for the norm immigrant population what i mean remarkable use i did was say indigenous to that what does it mean can you define for those insurgents if we've got a concept that immigrant we've got to have a concept of nonimmigrant have a code so there is a concept of anonymous and. what's the concept of an immigrant my indigenous britain born here yes let me britain here because there are people who are born here indigenous we're. so here's my question in your book you say that in the 2011 census it was revealed that the indigenous british had become a minority in their own capital the census showed that 63 percent of the population of london was born in britain the only way you can get a minority status is if you're white british then you're

a minority in london but. it's a phrase you've used in many interviews many articles in the daily mail a new statesman you think you can look to the 2nd generation me this is not ask a simple question is that wrong is wrong isn't it in your book you say that the indigenous british are a minority in their own capital they're not 63 percent if you want to score a point then i'm not scoring a point i'm asking a professor of economics did he get a quite glaring error in his book no i didn't read it and didn't repeat it in the news no i didn't repeat it in the mail i did not care to glaring it. perfectly meaningful statement but the use of the human meaning the use of the word indigenous right. there or there are various definitions you can have i asked you for your minutes here and you some of them gave you one so that doesn't apply to this one no he certainly doesn't it certainly doesn't apply to them so what does that apply to in this context it applies to the the 2nd generation

the 2nd generation are not indigenous now according to this sentence then absolutely so am i am i not indigenous the. horse you are right. but you know just sort of oh you look at you're going to me no seriously look it's a serious question all right so if. there's a process of absorption of immigrants into the society so that some people wouldn't really be culturally integrated after several generations some people will be culturally integrated within a decade and ok so what the census shows is an approximation so where would we where would i and where would my daughter 2nd and 3rd generation where would we fit in by the sound of things where you fit absolutely as. those british don't you're indeed when you consider yourself as british i do consider myself

a british but i read a book which told me that you know that you are according to the definition. i'm not and you believe the definition of me twice the 2nd is just one last thing before i go to a planet would be waiting very patiently to come in in your book you talk about migrants from developing countries tending to bring their own quote dysfunctional cultures with them to developed countries and in support of this you write quote unsurprisingly nigerian immigrants to other societies tend to be untrusting and opportunistic how is that not a sweeping statement some might say racist why the prices seem working in nigeria for many many years right now argyria is one of the lowest trust societies in the world and that's a different point there isn't it it's one thing to say society is a local society another thing to say that nigerian immigrants to other societies are your group of people tend to be untrusting and opportunistic that's pretty offensive if you nigerian surely i'm sorry if it causes offense the what i'm trying to suggest is that people tend. to bring their culture with them

we've made our make a very important distinction between culture and race anybody from any race can write any culture ok let's go to our panel dr t.t. lola banjoko your british nigerian doctor advisor to the e.u. in the un on migration issues also the founder of africa recruit what do you make of that can i 1st say that i don't take offense to what you said because i know i'm not one of those who had to find it and i think you've taken the narrow way and and you've used that sterile stereotype which is wrong to define a whole community if you say you've lived in nigeria you would know that there is a sense of trust of communities where people get together around be going to it's across the african continent where we don't even have agreements and we bring money we share money with each other so what's the level is that not trust. to me that is trust here we define it as crowd funding that actually has been going on in africa

for centuries so there is a very high level of trust it's the level of trust of government which you're confusing with the level of trust of society now in terms of bringing habits to the country which i call my country here. actually there are some you said in your books a number of good things that we've brought one a caring attitude. which is why there is no surprise that many migrants work in the care sector respect for elders i respect you see i said i don't take offense i respect you do you think that's a valuable thing that we should all be sharing and learning i mean i read your book and i thought i defined it as a very good pub you know who in a pub will have a pub quiz it's a storybook there's no evidence you contradicted yourself so many times i've even said let's come back and they're going to come back on the transport and evidence point.

1st of all my own doctor is in nigeria moments so. i am able to distinguish between one another so there are. local community level support systems which are high trust. to say it's hard to africa's high trust know that the really high trust society in the world is japan ok let's go let's go to another member of our panel david good heart he's here he's the author of the book the british dream and you in your book david unlike paul you don't talk so much about indigenous you used the phrase if i remember correctly when i read it white british you get how people sometimes are quite suspicious when they hear those labels but i do think it's one of the best things about the debate in the last few years is that we have been able to distinguish issues of race and racial justice from its use of the economic and yes in the cultural impact of very large scale immigration you

do have very serious issues of integration and segregation and almost half the ethnic minority population now live in wards where less than half of the population are white british that seems to me a kind of concentration and a sort of separating out that it's very unhealthy for for a good civic society where people do feel a mutual raghad and they want to share with only to get into a statistical argument because of the all the stuff is always contest contested by people on all sides is about the the racial composition of the population or is it about as paul asked me you know feeling british feeling english feeling european because again they seem to be mixed messages i think i think these things become sort of symbolic in a way no i don't think it is about whiteness but i think it is about scale and speed of change let me bring in phillip mcgraw on who is also an economist all through the book immigrants your country needs to. the original question asked to pull if you see what phillips could be coming from in the perspective of. paul made

the common. at the start we talked about you know there are social and cultural cost immigration not everything is good not things but it depends how much given his belief that immigration is going to rapidly increase in coming years the whole multiplier effect asper effect is that a good enough reason therefore in your view even as a supporter of the actually we do need to do something about it before it gets out of control and damaging and put some controls and 1st of all there is no evidence diversity actually reduces trust or social cohesion the evidence from. united states where they'll say they have a history of slavery and therefore polarized relations between whites and blacks studies in europe don't find that at all 2nd of all is accelerator model is not a recognized model of migration in fact it's contracted by the evidence the idea that it without controls that everyone moves and countries become depopulated is contradicted by the evidence is in africa where there is next to nigeria nigeria 6 times richer share is not depopulated basically there are controls between them is

contradicted within europe where sweden is 6 times richer than romania the remaining is not depopulated it's contradicted within united states where mainland united states is 3 times richer than puerto rico and puerto rico is not populated so this is just spurious fear mongering this is not evidence based at all and you are using your position as an economist and claiming that evidence exists when actually it doesn't ok let's let. that sort of argument. really doesn't cut the mustard. is the. paper a couple of years ago called. finds that the single most powerful driver of immigration migration is the size of the us but can you find any example

of your accelerator i can't actually there are i do so in the book you don't focus on the fact that i don't get it i just don't actually i don't you just assert you draw like if you make a play and you claim expertise when you don't have it go looking like ration actually go read the playbook don't actually quote studies backing up your arguments i'm sorry if you want if you want things employers of a celebration of the example given the book is turkish cyprus. where there are more turkish sleep cypriots living in britain now than there are in turkey cyprus and i will come later i hope to water the effects on all the countries of origin thank you for doing the segue into the next discussion that's exactly what i want to ask you about you say that it might not just harm developed countries in the future in terms of cultural solidarity but that it actually could pose a real danger to the development prospects of the countries quote left behind you talk about kind of the harm and damage that could be done what harm and damage you for and to specifically emigrants all migrants are. they tend to be the

the young the enterprising the skilled the educated. and people like that are if you like with fairy godmothers in any society they're useful to others . and so country like say haiti where about 85 percent of the young educated leave that's debilitating many would say haiti is an aberration given its history of natural disasters and being next door to the united states but i take your point if we were to if we would all agree with your thesis on this particular point about the poorest countries why should i not try and leave haiti and try and get a better job rather than stay in a country ruled by dictators dominated by corruption blighted by natural disasters purely by the bad luck of my birth people turn have the right to live anywhere in the world without the right to leave their country and it's a human right of course you would admit as you do in the book just for context i

think it's $400000000000.00 in remittances goes back from skilled migrants to those poor countries those people because they're productive skilled energetic if they'd stayed in their country they would also have produced no more glass there's no evidence for that that's one of the last what they were what the critics say about your book there's no evidence that if you keep a skilled bunch of people in a hellhole that hellhole will become heaven look there's very evidence for that no . that is abusive language that you describe as hellhole. are the societies which absolutely have to catch up with the rest of the way your employer implodes leaving stop over keep in mind there is no evidence for the most in challenge for the 21st century is that the poorest societies catch up with the rest read just a philosophical level it's wonder your view would it be a good thing

a morally commendable thing for those poorer countries to put in immigration controls to stop those skilled energetic young people from leaving in the 1st place nobody like north korea or cuba no problem is no obviously not obviously because there is no moral right to restrict exit that is turning a country into a prison how is it morally different to say you can't stop people from leaving so what we'll do is we'll do that for you by stopping them from coming what i'm advocating is people should. get skills education go back to come here to work and settle you do you want less i don't want less i want to. prevent an acceleration certainly let's go back to our panel. this movement of peoples especially from the developing world to develop world can be if the brain drain exceeds the brain very damaging what's your response to that is not just the

developing countries even this country is losing skills to australia to canada so it's it's all about people searching for petunias and people will continue to search a lot of people actually are going back to the continent of africa and i'm sure you know that this is not about that so there is a lot of speculation going on what the what we can do is restrict the flow of money from the very rich who take money from these countries and bring it to the west i'm in battle with you to try and. break the banking secrecy which permits if you've been a journalist for many years been around the political scene surely you and i both know that when governments are making these decisions about restricting immigration and keeping foreigners out it's not very much to do with caring about the developing countries and their futures. it is not only reacting to public opinion although actually i think let's not you know take people who take the brightest in

the best from all those countries and the the area where this is most scandalous that we haven't spoken about is the area of health care i think that something like one 3rd of all the nurses working in london have come relatively recently from other countries many of them very poor countries that cannot afford to lose their trained health care workers and what's your response to david and paul there's a contradiction at the heart again for collier's book i mean in the beginning he is explained his theory of under-development which is that poor countries are poor due to what he calls dysfunctional social models now if that's true why would preventing skilled people change anything it's a dysfunctional social model to makes them poor so keeping the skilled people there they're still going to be poor i mean and look at north korea. it prevents emigration has that somehow made it rich your argument simply don't stand up they're absolutely incoherent and ridiculous is the. point last point at the end if you don't say having said how terrible it is that they're skilled immigration from

poor countries you then say that actually rich countries should select migrants on the basis of skills and employability you left sheffield to go work in washington at the world bank for your self-improvement ditch if since you're so brilliant sheffield presumably lost out as a result should you have been prevented from moving i don't think so should you have stated your field full of your being. i chose my self interest there was a tension as there is with a lot of migrants between do i look after myself or do i care about the people left behind while some of them are doing both by sending about income to sell those countries. this is. the average migrant from a poor country sends back a $1000.00 a year. that's not a great sign if they're bright energetic and skilled and they stayed in their country they'd probably generate more than

a 1000 total assumption probably the evidence is not there is no evidence and understanding but it's always been as it really is no no no you are counting formal remittances can i just corrected. a lot of informal images which you have no idea about. take a break we're going to come back in part 2 to talk about one other area of the migration debate because a lot of heat asylum and immigration and proposals for what to do with refugees will also be hearing from our audience here in the oxford union join us for part 2 of head to head after the break. rewind i can't bring your people back to life i'm sorry. but on the best of al-jazeera documentaries 14 year old boy from back. of these districts rewind continues with baltimore anatomy of an american city called

friends who were lost to the streets can literally see the future of baltimore to the. rewind on al-jazeera on counting the cost to india's labor reforms but is it reform when they cracked the job millions with no redress what china's tight grip on hong kong will do to its financial hub status. virtual jobs are they a stopgap for the real deal. counting the cost on al-jazeera on the deserted streets of they've become familiar figures careerism bicycles delivering food or medicine to lock down colombians most of them here are venezuelan migrants they might go missing mother of $4.00 says contagion is always on her mind none of them receive health insurance. for their work in exposing themselves and very few seem to have it yet there may be a bright side people who look down on them as own skilled migrants now say they're essential to control the virus and receive messages on the scene that we are you

know so i was a nurse back home what i am doing is not all that different from my passion helping others. who are. already or. i want to clock in there how the top stories here on al-jazeera and a lot down has been reimposed in parts of china's capital delta 45 people at a wholesale market tested positive for corona virus what's being called a wartime emergency in beijing has 4 schools to delay reopening following 2 months of new infections these are live pictures from london where hundreds of protesters including far right activists have gathered in the city despite police warnings to stay at home and leave is a far right groups say they intend to protect statues from anti-racism demonstrators dozens of people are surrounding

a memorial to the former british prime minister winston churchill that was vandalized during a black lives matter protest last week and it is now boarded jenna hall has more details from london. there is very evident concern to protest if they're allowed to get into any sort of proximity with one another could spark off violence the police are here in very visible numbers behind me right when protesters have gathered in parliament square initially around the statue of winston churchill now boarded up that was defaced last weekend by black lives matter protesters with the words was a racist written beneath his name that has obviously been a real touchstone account of his prime minister says police video of the violent arrest of a prominent indigenous chief is shocking and raises questions about the use of force the dash cam video is being used in a legal challenge to criminal charges filed against chief allen out of the police say they use reasonable force after he resisted arrest for an expired license plate

in march to the polls parliament has passed a bill that proving changes to the country's map the revised map includes territory that's now controlled by india into nepal's expanded borders new delhi has rejected the proposed boundaries and says that nepal is acting unilaterally the move has strained ties between the 2 neighbors it's. rare anti-government protests are continuing in the southern syrian town of straighter for days demonstrators in the government tell their demand of the resignation of the president bashar al assad they blame his governments for the collapse of the economy after years of civil war are also calling for the release of prisoners and the end of the iranian and russian presence within the country. all right let's take the headlines here on al-jazeera more news coming up right after head to head.

welcome back to head to head on al-jazeera we are talking about immigration with professor paul collier of oxford university in part one we talked about immigration from south to north we talked about integration we talked about the effect on the so-called left behind countries i just want to ask you this one group of migrants even the most hard line critics and opponents of immigration tend to put to one side and treat more generously are refugees and asylum seekers most people think we have a moral and a legal obligation to open our borders to people fleeing conflicts and persecution and you say the same in your book exodus but then you add this rather some might say you say when peace is restored you say people should be quote required to return just to clarify would you forcibly we patrick refugees to their countries of

origin against their will maybe no matter how long they've been settled in a new country of course not the cool thing we should be focused on with conflicts around the conflict. the conflicts. and the post conflict countries are the most vulnerable societies in the world. very often they revert to conflict and so again a vital task is to try and make their conflict recovery. as successful as possible i work with a lot of post conflict societies and governments and the standard problem that governments face post conflict is that all the skilled people are left and so i do think it's responsible to have policies which encourage people to go back when you should required to return so that that would be an overstayer right that little

euro state yeah ok here's my overstatement of it is it's really to try and focus on the issue that it's of course it's very important to protect the skilled and educated by taking them out of the society whilst the conflict is happening but it's just to clarify while the conflicts happening if it's going on for years as many conflicts do should they have the right to settle here and work here that the presumption should be. that people should be. provided with a safe refuge with it with some sort of presumption of return and of course most refugees. don't. come to rich societies the other refugee camps and so they're the real challenge agree more important you say that you say that those conflicts don't last that long according to the u.n.h.c.r. the average refugee now spend 17 years as a refugee rather than 9 years

a decade previously some of these conflicts in places like iraq afghanistan the democratic republic of congo even in pakistan violence doesn't seem to be abating at all i mean how do you say to people now's a time safe when you decide it's safe we must encourage her to go back quite often . there are there are a peace settlements which to mark. an end to conflict a time where without a peace settlement people can stay but if there's a clear settlement only sure if there are so iraqis today if you take a real world example iraqis living in the west would you don't want them to be required to return to encourage to return of course not. of course i'm right it's still in conflict very obviously while they're here with their families they should integrate they should where possible retain their links. with iraq so that when the conflict is over which it will be. then they can go back

and help rebuild their country if you've been in a country 10 years 12 years 15 years 20 years you've had kids they've gone to school they've never seen that country that you moved from they don't speak the language absolutely required to return no no of course not but there's a desperate situation or a small group of people trying to restore a country desperately short of skilled people who know the society and the key resource to draw on is the skilled the aspirant even in afghanistan one of my students last year. gone by is trying to rebuild the society is brave you have really he was a hero because he volunteered to go and do that he didn't do that as a british government pressuring no get out but we have a duty of rescue in a context in which there's a larger duty to try and help rebuild these societies from being smashed up conflict is not agreement and the same would say divorce those 2 debates the

refugee debates too important to be tacked on to the development debate the problem is poor refugee debate is not what happens here it's what happens in the refugee camp well it's interesting you raise that issue because of course a lot of people here talk about the issues of refugee and asylum and you raise the issue in your book actually the west as a whole doesn't take enough refugees to begin with i think britain takes less than one percent of the world refugee population and developing countries take something like 86 percent of the world's refugees up from 70 percent a decade ago the refugees overwhelmingly are going to continue to be in countries that border areas of the conflict so the fate of refugees. does not really depend on whether a few 1000 more harm to the rich society is what matters is what happens to the millions agree and so it doesn't change our fundamental responsibility is to make the those refugee camps far better place we call it economically

opposite mutually exclusive we could it's a referral maybe river valley police peripheral because last year the british government took 90 syrians not $90090.00 syrians and it is a shameful you understand how many hundreds of thousands or millions of syrians actually need refuge and yes i'd like us to give more money to refugee camps and also take in more refugees would you find ok but the real balance of priority is the camps agreed let's go to our let's go to our panel. paul talks about refugees should be keeping links with the countries they fled from in order to be ready to go back and help rebuild surprised that i mean i know that they already do that and many of them i know of a lot of afghans healthcare professionals working in this country who go home regularly a medical mission trips to south sudan to somalia so in terms of not counted your

previous argument where you were saying these people shouldn't these middle class people you've described actually doing more to take months to take materials they sacrifice a lot sacrificial given there's a difference between just throwing money out and sacrificing your life to do this like you did that knowledge that in the book let me let me bring in david david you'll remember in this country we talked about the u.k. context a lot of the stuff about immigration you talk about how the debate has changed what's your position today on the on the refugee asylum part of this debate i think most people in this country still believe in the idea of providing asylum i mean one of the problems here is though that the definition of. qualifies for asylum has expanded and expanded and expanded so there are now on some calculations perhaps 1000000000 people out there in the world who could technically qualified to come here as an asylum seeker which i think is a problem. but then if you are thinking about places that are experiencing civil

war or natural disasters of one kind or another we should pay a decent temporary. villages cities for people like that and they can then keep an eye on what is happening in their country they'll be closer to what's going on and they will know when it is safe to return i take it what if they do reach it and many do reach it through genuine persecution and are ended up settling here for several years do you believe they should have the right to settle here have children if they are genuine asylum seekers who are whose lives are in danger in some way in the country they come down saying the danger is gone with several years down the line but they've been here they're working they've got no i don't think it is actually to leave here the presumption should be that they should go back. briefly philip to run. again and force argument i mean he he says only it you agree only a tiny proportion of refugees go to the west so it's only a tiny proportion why is it so essential for their country's future at that time proportion to go back. to leap.

who are the refugees who get to the west they're the more educated. more able the people best able to get out. the people with the biggest incentive to get out of the most educated well that's perfect group that's sensible weak with the spirit of rational self-interest of the people who are living off a little social category only sense of highly skilled it's it's it's the poor it's the middle class it's the even the rich it's all sorts of people just this this place from sarah that's just not true for the people who have education a much more likely. to come as far as the west than the people without ok let's leave it there we're going to bring in our audience to ask them questions trying to be a point short as possible as go here to the front row lady here in the front row and

the more go to the back isn't it arguable that. in those countries where we have either started the conflict or we have prolonged the conflict that we have a greater moral responsibility to take in more refugees rather than giving the burden to the neighbors i was there just want to say that under the 151 united nations refugee convention we have a legal obligation to take in genuine refugees and the convention does not put a time limit on how long these refugees can stay. yes webb where we where we cause conflicts we've obviously got more moral responsibility than where we didn't cause them but. we still got a moral responsibility even where we didn't cause them because basically we should be navigating by need here but the but the but to just to reiterate.

migration to the west is a peripheral aspect of what to do when there's a conflict the really important thing is to help to rebuild the society after conflict whilst treating the vast number of refugees well during the conflict while at the legal point she made that actually what you propose is illegal under international law to set a time limit on how long refugees can stay i'm an economist not a lawyer and i tend to think that. the lawyers look at things in a rather blinkered way that what we want to harlem is. what economists look at is try to look at is what's best for society ok let's go to the lady in the row and then the gentleman next to a migrant from malawi in africa there's been a lot of mention quite a lot about the damage that migrants from my part of the world to t.k.

culture i want to know exactly what do you mean by that when you talk about trust to me the biggest abuses us house of trust on a massive scale lately has been linked to the great recession which had nothing to do with people from my part of the world and a lot of us become citizens as well our story becomes part of britain story you know isn't this more about living with difference and you're an ease with that. you have to. i'm sorry if you've got a sense that i'm saying immigrants from malawi or anywhere else are called problems in britain or anywhere else i'm not right. you are. you're misinterpreting. pretty fundamentally what i'm saying. so if they can we have more of them. was go back to the beginning discussion here i still know it's been good till now it's been good but in the future it's going to

be bad. that's what i'm struggle i've been struggling with through well maybe you're not really struggling what i'm saying. what i say. is that there is a good reason to think that migration left to itself with controls would accelerate the red herring who's leaving who's calling for migration without control by half a 1000000 a year and we're going to have a population of 80000000 by 2050 i mean nobody has any. particular individual but it is about this scale it's about this scale of change now this is mainly you know highly educated mobile liberal that they are comfortable you're comfortable with change most people in most societies are not they've not taken account of those perfectly normal human feelings and polish he also says in his book that microstrip a selector on the basis of cultural distance so actually he doesn't want people from he wants more people who he considers similar to himself ok.

section. let's bring in some more gentlemen here next yes yes i wanted to say that there was this debate between. diversity and trust but you know i think trust is maybe overrated i mean i come from ireland we had to indigenous populations katha the control the student the been there for hundreds of years they didn't trust each other and they fought against each other and kill each other and in fact it might have been good if we had people from china from somewhere maybe to actually go there and i also think that we don't need just trust we need the rule of law so you have the rule of law and i might not trust you you might not trust me you're a stranger i'm not from your village you're from another village you're from another religion but we exist within the rule of law tradition and we get along ok . polarized.

societies. are the worst nightmare and so as you which really point out a bit of diversity the breaks polarized nation might be might be an improvement and probably would have been on. the point about. law as a substitute for trust do we want a society that has mutual respect or do we want to society that moves beyond mutual respect to mutual regard. and the mutual respect is what you would see through the law you have to respect each other like it or not as it were but. a good society actually moves beyond respect to mutual regard because it's that move that actually builds willingness to be generous to other people gentlemen here in the 2nd which is

a question for the professor do you think that a sensible policy for migration you're talking about temporary migrants might be to allow in only the work themselves to keep their families outside of the country is to not allow them to vote to only allow them to go back home maybe 3 weeks every 2 years to keep them in inferior conditions to give them worse health facilities and the reason i ask this is because it seems to work really well in qatar. saudi arabia and countries out there your cousin is not here to speak about arab regimes he did speak about his book so i asked him could be very good i think if you will came it tonight and asked him a series of questions about how he thinks about how abysmally gulf kingdoms treat them are going to be a very odd one hour that me and paul collier spent talking about but to be fair to the questioner. i do discuss the gulf migration policies in the book and what i say about them and what i say about them is that.

for somebody like philip they're perfect they get all loads of economic gains so they take all the economic boxes and. they are absolutely disgusting and not something that a western society could translate to me and i don't. think it's a point why do we let more of them into the u.k. that's why i'd like to see would you like to see that as well because a lot of people would like to come and work here i'm sure but you and david were the 1st people to go on. no this is not ok let's go back to the audience with some of course went back to theater let's take let's take the kill a text and we'll be waiting very patiently here in the jacket 2nd row might come in here and stand by. my name is i have a coca leaf. from the country because of a problem caused by the british. on my arrival here i was detained for several

months before the legal battle i won my case i was given their refugee status. so my question to you according to your book is how do you plan to get refugees who've been here for more than 70 years to return and rebuild their countries with your good. will that involve. deportation which will cause retirement ties and effects to these families no of course not right now. let me be clear about not i'm not advocating for st patrick haitian i don't know which country you're from the moon's out on camera. but the we could go around the circle again but no one i'm not sure that your britain is now your home and if so you're right. but there's clearly a need in the cameroon to. for some people to help. build that society so

that it catches up with britain so that future generations in the cameroon don't face this huge income gap and lack the civil rights. hold on. we're running out of time gentlemen then in the 3rd row yes it strikes me that a lot of this discussion has been about self interest verses interest for the community i myself am from a laser but i've been raised in the us i have an american accent how would you engender this sense of community values what we need to do for that so that at least the people that aren't forced migrants are interested in going back many migrants reconcile that tension by actually doing a lot for their original societies. and their but that is a process that the it basically to be to be celebrated and encourage but i think it's very important that. we shouldn't just look at

a self interest there's a sort of libertarian cult which is quite common in in economics which basically reduces to people should be free to pursue their self interest and i think the real limits to pull one last question for me before we finish there's a lot of ignorance obviously on the subject a lot of fear mongering from certain sections of the political spectrum opinion polls suggest that a lot of british people lot of french people or americans or the canadians. overestimate for example how many migrants are living in their societies as a lot of fear fear of change to quote david. what do you say to people who say that when we obsess about immigration in this way when we have this perspective. and when you write about the we all worry about the future accelerating rate and the harm that may come you'll simply playing into that histeria you're playing into that ignorance rather than kind of challenging it and controlling it 1st of all i really whatever i can be accused of. creating europe's histeria about migration

are not guilty right nobody should know because you don't do that. what are you what is it my wider point which i was trying to make about some. yes theory around this debate what we've got is a polarized and strident debate in which the extremes shout a lot and the center stays silent. because center politicians just. want the subject to go away and that is a dereliction of duty on the part of the politicians of the center we need to seize the debate to say it's not. migration is terrible migration is wonderful migration is a relatively minor process. for the rich countries that needs to be managed

bearing taking into account the rather more important interests of the poor societies from which these people are coming and of course you would have if you would acknowledge i think the statistic out there that i came across that 97 percent of the world's population actually live in the country where they were bored and since the release that we're talking i think i read percent in the book right around that we're talking about a target a tiny element the reality for the future is not that we all turn into a global soup the reality for the future is people will live predominantly 97 percent in their own countries actually the big migration flows if we look at century since the big migration flows will have gone down not up. one thing in which phillips wrong which i was a nice point on which to end is that. is the going down

range because i feel is everything i like ration is not an integral part of globalization globalization of trade of capital flows is actually almost hernot to moving people we shouldn't be moving people to jobs we should build a world in which jobs move to people who will have to leave it there thank you very much. as you have the oxford union thank you very much for our audience here in the uk to our wonderful panel of experts thank you very much for watching at home this debate is not going away good night. international trade switchgear supported having free trade would not change your money or the japanese or chinese dogs or germany controversial immigration policies

that you want to as a well founded fear of persecution should be able to calm him as well from a letter from syria he's closer to a syrian refugees like the buffalo mehdi has signed goes head to head with senior trump advisor stephen moore this year the trump deficit crossed a trillion dollars you would be urging everyone not to reelect donald trump well no i'm not cut out of the phone outages era. ally there's a developing front of cold air this one here running through north knowledge and to me doesn't look very much and it didn't look very much from look yesterday either

but do something or bring a line is i think significant thunderstorms for southeast brazil power guy and beyond eventually towards ecuador now as it moves north cabo hands not very warm sunny 14 importance there is the air head is really quite warm 35 in reality so disintegrates on sunday which allies actually the wants to come back through paragraph of the forecast specifically for us and c o m is an interesting one is about $21.00 degrees on sunday up to $31.00 by tuesday not far off the record now admittedly a sense it has a bit of a reputation for being hot particularly last year but there we go again and yes look at the season this winter it seems to be the wet season for the caribbean virtually everywhere is it risk all chance if you like being the point of view of having some sort of rain sundry rain the focus appears to be maybe costa rica panama ups through this part of central america certainly that part of mexico most of mexico you'll see is dry and it goes on through the northern gulf as well florida is sufferance of 30 heavy downpours and they extend up towards the

carolinas in the u.s. but in the caribbean everywhere shari. short films. and inspiration. small stories of 3 young women challenging the world around them. al-jazeera selects. in uncertain and isolating times the listening post cuts through the noise you've been looking at another side of this story not so much the information around the outbreak but the misinformation separating propaganda from fact look this reality has joined the long exposing deal to try

to manipulate their rhetoric and but they cannot manipulate the listening post your insight going to the media just the era. this is al-jazeera. this is a news coming up in the next 60 minutes a race equality demonstrations begin across the united kingdom but there are fears of a confrontation with far right groups. a video emerges of a canadian indigenous chief be assaulted by police prime minister trudeau calls for an investigation. and fears of a resurgence parts of beijing back on lockdown.